red112fl

Max.Org members have I got an amazing discovery to tell everyone about! I have finally gotten my 1995 Maxima SE to handle like a BMW 3-series. Let me give you some background.

Background

Ever since I bought my Max, I have tried to improve on the handling of the car. I tried everything.... Suspension Techniques lowering springs, Tokico Blue struts/shocks, urethane mid-link sway bar bushings, Michelin MXV tires, Z-rated tires, 16" rims, Addco rear sway bar and a Stillen front strut tower brace. Still I never could quite get the car tuned the way I wanted it. About a month ago, I ordered the KYB AGX's hoping this was the missing component I needed to "fix" my ride. I'd been corresponding with fellow Max.org members NJMAXSELTD, MCROS and others, who raved about these KYB bad boys. I had the AGX's installed and did a complete overhaul to my suspension replacing dust boots, strut bearings, bushings, insulators and coil spring-noise suppression sleeves.

With the installation complete my car's suspension was set up as follows:

(1) KYB AGX struts and shocks
(2) Stillen Front Strut Tower Brace
(3) Addco Rear Sway Bar
(4) Urethane Front strut bar end-link bushings
(5) 97-99 style 16" Nissan 5 star SE rims (16 x 6.5)
(6) Continental CH 95 Touring Contact tires (215/55/16)(H-rated)
(7) Stock SE springs

For several days, I played with the front/rear adjustments on the AGX's, trying 2/4, 3/5 , 1/2 and finally settling on 2/2 or 1/2. I noticed a definite correlation between increasing the stiffness of the shock and the smoothness of my tires and the chopiness of my ride. As soon as I increased the settings over 2/2, I began to sense an unevenness in the tires (almost like an imbalance in the tire) and a noticeable chopiness to my ride (I could actually see my headlights jumping up and down on the road!) The AGX's also made the car feel slightly jacked up and I could sense the car had a slightly raised center of gravity to it. The AGX's were an improvement over my Tokico Blues (which had softened and rebounded beyond limits of acceptability with less than 20,000 miles of use), but I felt as though something wasn't quite right because I couldn't dial in increased damping without having the car feel as thought I was riding on a bad set of coil-overs. I ended up having two different tire shops look at the tires and they were balanced, and then rebalanced and then rebalanced again. The rims were round, the tires were balanced, no uneven wear, separation or alignment issues according to the different techs who worked on the car. Still...the car wasn't what I'd anticipated. So after consulting with NJMAXSELTD, we agreed the problem was attributable to the Continentals. It looked as though a new set of Dunlop A2 Sports or Yokohoma db's were in the car's future, or possibly a 17" wheel/tire upgrade. Yes, the car would finally begin to feel like a BMW (Been in My Wallet)

So What Happened Man?

Since I still had my OEM Nissan 15" saw-tooth rims wearing 215/60/15 Firestone SH30 tires, I thought why not put these on for a few days since the tires provided so much more traction than the Continentals. At first, I was reluctant to step down to a 15" rim, but decided to go ahead and try it since it wouldn't cost me anything. So, on went the 15" rims and Firestones. I drove away not noticing any appreciable difference and pondering how much the 17" wheel/tire package would cost. On the way home it occured to me, "Why not turn up the firmness of the struts and see if you have the same problem?" Pulled into a parking lot and dialed in 2/3. Drove off. Mmmmm...not bad. Pulled off the road again and dialed in 3/3. Mmmmm...this feels really nice. Pulled off the road again! Dialed in 4/5. Wow, this is AWESOME!

I immediately headed towards my favorite subdivision where the newly constructed development offers a freshly paved, snaking, S-curved, lighted, 4-5 mile road with a few rises, a number of good banks and an occasional manhole cover. It's late, the road is carless. I cruise through at 45-50 mph looking for the man in blue, who is nowhere to be found..... I find a curb cut and turn around....

Wind It Up Baby!

EEEERRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! The car is really tight. The car feels like its lowered. I'm hugging the road, planted, no tire wobbling or vibration, comfortably firm smoothness. I hit my first manhole cover...THUMB-THUMP! A tar strip... THUMB-THUMP. I side to side the steering wheel....immediate response, a noticeable decrease in weight transfer time. Into the first bend... what am I riding on? Complete tire adhesion. I look at my speedometer...80 mph The ride is unbelieveable... tight, damped, planted, controlled, smooth, a real BMW-like ride. But I'm on 15" rims. This can't be!!!

Observations/Recommendation

During the last 2 months, many Max.Org members have installed the AGX's in their cars. Most of these members have 16" or 17" rims and some have even lowered their cars. There appears to be universal agreement among members who have posted threads that the best setting on these struts are either 1/2 or 1/3. I believe only one member indicated he preferred 2/4 as a setting.

Keeping in mind that one's tire is the first shock absorber in a car's suspension, the taller sidewall of a 60 aspect tire clearly provides more insulation from road irregularities. Given the increased road insulation, it also allows for increased valving on the AGX's without discomfort. Admittingly, there is a drawback to having the 15" rims...the infamous fender-wheel well "gap". Maybe, if I step up to a 225/60/15 ultra performance tire, I will have an "ideal" suspension since the increased tire size will reduce the "gap", provide an even more comfortable ride and increase the width of the tire's "contact patch." On the other hand, I might stay with the 215/60/15 and just upgrade to a quality V, Z, or W rated tire. Guess it's time to look for a five-star design 15 x 7 replacement rim.

Here's a suggestion for those who are new to the modification world (or even those who aren't) Before you go out and purchase 16" and 17" rims and tires or install lowering springs, purchase the AGX's first and try them with your 15" wheel/tire set-ups. You are gonna be truly amazed at how the car's handling is improved and may reconsider these other options as the first step to improved handling.

96gxe

WOW, can you give us the price of each part you used!!

theblue

I have had AGX + GC for a while now. I really like 2/5 with a drop of 2" all around... this works great for carving corners and is not harsh at all.

mitch33x

iTrader: (5)

Hey Aaron, got any pics after the new suspension was put in?

theblue

it may not look low, but I have 4" of clearance from the front lip to the ground

puremax

15's? Def. not gonna happen. How can 15's handle better? Doesn't make any sense.

BEJAY1

iTrader: (19)

No so hard to believe - just doesn't look as good though. There's a direct relationship between sidewall profile and strut travel. More sidewall allows for a firmer strut setting. Try a 40 series tire with full stiff settings and see how much traction you get on anything but glass smooth racetrack

We know that a 15" wheel will out accelerate any 16"+ too.
Hmmm - handling, acceleration, ...

for sHo

Man if with that setup your car REALLY handles like a 3-series, then I would definitely switch to it. My friend has a 330i and the handling on that thing is just off the charts, I would be one happy guy if my max could handle like that. I have the stock 16" SE wheels right now with stock suspension...ordered AGX's already, should have 'em any day. So I'll see how that goes. But if wheel size is what does the trick, you can just get some pimp *** 15" chromes or something and go around out-handling all the other cars on the road .

philpoe

iTrader: (4)

I always wondered why people were going for 17"+ size rims.
Stock 15" or 16" size means less mass, You can always go to wider tires if you wanted more contact patch. 15" are lighter but with 16" at least you can clear some of the big brake options out there. The fastbrakes/wilwood kit or a 300ZX hack. If fastbrakes ever comes out with the OEM caliper on 12" rotor kit, that would be a great option.
Taller tires means more shock absorption as well.

clee130

Hmmmm ... interesting ... a reason to keep my 15's .... hmmmmmm ......

Eric L.

Running 2/4 on my AGX's now with H&R springs and 17" rims. Ride is nice and firm, bordering on harsh over the big bumps. But it does ride better than Tokicos and handles much more confidently.

Dave B

I agree, a 15" setup can easily handle better than a 17" setup. I have a 96 SE which means I have the saw blade 15s for stock. I use to have a 47lb 17" setup with 235/45s along with ST springs, FSTB, RSTB, Addco RSB, Koni adjustables in the front, and KYB GR2s in the rear. With the 17s, the ride was very harsh, handling was darty, and on bumpy turns you could feel the 17s slap and hop. Most of the problem was the wheels. The higher unsprung weight of the wheel dramatically decrease handling in that the wheels are slower to react and they are far more prone slapping and hopping on bumpy surfaces. The 17" setup also breaks adhesion with little warning at the limit. With the stock 15s and RSAs (little tread left) on the same suspension setup, the car rode much better (less unsprung weight, taller sidewall) and handled pretty good, but due to the weak tires, the handling limits were atleast 20% lower than the 17s. However, off the line traction was greatly improved due to the long and narrow contact patch of the 15s vs the wide and narrow contact patch of the 17s. If you really believe 17s improve traction off the line, you're only kidding yourself. The reason you "hook up" better is because your car is having trouble having the extra mass, you're spinning less, but coming off the line slower. I said to hell with the 17s, even though they were great looking. I bought a set of Kosei K1 16s (15lbs each) along with 215/55 all seaon preformance Yokohama Avid V4 tires. This combo is lighter than my 15" combo, is a wide 7.5", and has a great contact patch. The ride was marginally harsher than the 15" setup, but the handling was the best I had experienced in my car (or any car I've driven). With the 16s, I don't have to change out my wheels for the winter or for the track. I love it. The way you see my car on the street is the why you'll see it on the track.

Months later, I got Intrax springs which dropped the car .5" further in the front and .7" further in the back. With the rear end so low (2 finger gap, maybe), I got ride of the RSB. Why you ask? Because the roll center of the rear of the car is very low now with the Intrax. The RSB is pretty much pointless especially after seeing the stock 1/2" RSB in the beam axle. After removing the RSB, the ride improved once again because I removed 16lbs of unsprung weight off the beam. The handling improved in that the dartiness was all gone. The car was far more controllable and planted. At the limit, the rear barely wants to setup out, plus I have much more confidence in the car not biting me in the *** on a tight turn.

For ultimate performance: 15s with Z-rated tires
For excellent performance: lightweight 16s with V/Z-rated tires
For more show than go: 17s

Go to a autocross event and tell me how many cars you see running wheels bigger than 15s/16s. There is a reason for that.




Dave

VQdriver

i think mine's setup at 3 front and 6 rear. i like doing it hard i think that is my ideal setup for my normal driving.

mitch33x

iTrader: (5)

lookin good

Keven97SE

I've known this for some time, just that nobody wanted to listen to me

I have H&Rs with Konis and stock 16's (97). I've tried various settings with the Konis, but I keep finding the best combo is with 3/5 half-turns front and rear. Too firm in the front are too stiff and hurt traction overall, plus the car tended to understeer more.

I'd also like to ditch my RSB if possible. I'm hoping that the addition of subframe connectors in January (hopefully) will reduce body roll enough to make the RSB pointless. When I had the RSB removed a year ago due to some broken ADDCO hardware, the ride was so much better. The rear didn't skip and shudder all over the place and seemed to stay planted better in turns. I had icky Tokico blues at the time, though, so at that time it was better to leave the RSB on because the dampeners sucked so bad and allowed so much initial roll. With Konis and SFCs, I think I could finally ditch the RSB.

I think my final setup will be:
- H&Rs
- Konis set at 3/5
- FSTB
- Subframe connectors
- No RSB
- Stock wheels/tires (well, 225-50's)

I think at this point, I can say that my Maxima actually handles quite a bit better than my old 87 GTI. That car handled quite well, too. Even my steering feel is pretty good. Not floaty and soft like stock but just firm enough.

I'm convinced that these folks that complain about the pig-like handling of their Maxima would be astounded if they just went out and bought a set of decent struts (AGXs or Konis, take your pick). It made all the difference in the world.

Dave B

Keven-

The biggest thing I noticed about taking off the RSB is that the rear end "steers" like a 4WS system. It's hard to explain, but it was something the engineers designed into the rear beam setup (has something to do with the lateral link). I can now throw my car hard into a very tight turn and half way thru the turn you feel the car dart further inside changing it's line a bit even though you didn't touch the wheel. It's wierd and it's something I never experienced until a took off the RSB. All I can think is the RSB reduced the effect a bit. It's really cool once you get use to it. Two of my friends also commented about the odd sensation half way thru a tight turn. On a sweeper, you don't notice it. Only on a tight 90 degree turn at 25-30mph (i'm not gutsy enough to go faster).

When you take your RSB and tell what you think.


Dave

got rice?

iTrader: (2)

A decent lightweight/moderate-weight 16"/+1 setup will outhandle a 15" setup. The lower aspect ratio results in less sidewall flex, reducing the amount of distortion once the centrifigal side forces kick in (once the side forces kick in the slip angle of the tire decreases.. as this decreases.. traction decreases.. yada yada yada).

Hmm.. depends on the car. Smaller compact cars (the good ones) run 13" wheels for shorter gearing and less weight. The larger cars *do* run plus 1 setups (ie Vettes, Mustangs, Z28s, BMWs,etc). The guys with money use lightweight aluminum (or magnesium) wheels such as Weld, HRE, Kinesis, or BBS. They run +1 setups because they want the wider wheel to fit wider tires plus less sidewall. The smaller cars run setups such as 225/50/13. Even with the -1 setup, the sidewall of the 225/50/13 is less than a 195/60/14 (Miata sizes) [ 8.8" vs 9.2").

If anyone disagrees, let me know and I'll bring physics and math into the post

BEJAY1

iTrader: (19)

Both 4DSport and BioMax were running 15" wheels for Auto-x. From what I heard they improved accel and turning but braking suffered.

Jerry Xu

I am sure you get a lot of questions with your great post.
My questions are:
1) I have a GLE + 15" rims. Do you think I need to purchase some SE springs in order to get your handling experience? What would I expect from the GLE springs. I like the car with little body roll at cirnering.
2)After several months since you post, have you change your opinion or any setting update. I am sure many of us will be interested to know.

SleeperSE

- Red112fl, will you listen to yourself? You sound completely ridiculous! You are not (literally) reinventing the wheel here.

1. Softer side-walled tires will NOT increase your handling. They are squishy, will roll over, and then you will lose traction and handling. This is a fact - don't even try to debate this with me unless you've got some serious track time, you're related to the Pirelli family, or you've got a "Skip Barber Graduate" sticker on your car. On top of that, the only way to PREVENT (note that I did not write "SOLVE") the roll-over of the sidewalls is to increase the tire pressure to ungodly high amounts. This will then promote squirelly handling, will wear the center of your tires down on the street, and will only make the ride as uncomfortable as your 16's.

What you are suggesting is utterly ridiculous. Get some lighter weight wheels (of any size) if you want to prevent the hopping. Trust me, I've done it myself and it really does work.

Furthermore, you can drive on most public roads at triple or quadruple their speeds without a hint of drama. 80mph means nothing unless we know how tight the road was. Unless your tires were making some noise the entire way around the road, you were not driving fast enough and your "detailed analysis" is a bunch of BS.


2. BMW's are not the end-all, be-all of handling. I have raced them countless times on the AutoX course and around Sebring and Roebling Road... I have ALWAYS beaten them - and that's only with some basic Z-rated tires, a Stillen RSB, and a completely stock 60,000 mile-old suspension. Physics are physics: the cars weigh roughly the same and have similar power. The only real differences are which wheels are being driven (doesn't really matter above 30mph), the suspension geometries, and the much over-hyped 50/50 weight distribution of the Bimmer.

On top of that, I hated the few 3 and 5-series that I have driven. They have NO feel through the wheel, shifter, or pedals and they are too quiet to hear anything. On top of that, the Sports Package is an overpriced set of wheels, tires, and shocks that don't do a damn bit of difference. The car understeers just as bad as a Maxima at low speeds and then becomes neutral at medium speeds... the problem with that is when you do kick the pig into a drift, you can't feel anything to help you correct it!!! It is a scary frickin' ride because you are so isolated from the car.

I'm sure that the old 2002's and the older 3-series were fun cars, but the joyride stopped there. I'll keep my Maxima and continue to spank the Germans around a track.


- Please think about what you're saying before you post it. Chances are that if something has been done one particular way by every driver on the planet for the past 100 years, you are not going to solve it by doing the opposite in one night. Unless you've got a g-readout, you got nothin'.
- Go buy Koni's or lobby Bilstein to make us some shocks if you really want a proper-handling OEM-wheeled Max with no wheel-hop.

SleeperSE

- I currently AutoX with 205/50/15 Falken Azenis (unfortunately, they only come in a V-rating for that diameter) mounted on some old Mazda RX-7 wheels. The main things that I've noticed:

1. Yes, the car does accelerate much quicker with the smaller diameter tire.

2. The braking is incredible, but it is completely due to the grippy tires.

3. The tires roll-over like a ****. This is contributable to two things: one, they are V-rated, which means that the sidewall isn't as stiff as a Z-rated tire... two, the wheel is only 6" wide, so even a 205 wide tire is bulging out - this further increases the rollover, no matter what I do to the pressures.

- From what I have seen, the diameter of the wheel isn't going to affect the grip too much. Ultimately, it is going to come down to the sidewall height, how wide the wheels are in relation to the tires, and what the speed rating of the tire is. The only thing that a smaller wheel/tire package will do is effectively gear the car lower for better acceleration and possibly be lighter weight than some big, showy street-wheels.

Miasma

well, i am very content to keep my stock 15" wheels for a while and probably do the AGX\Sprint setup, lowering it a bit will get rid of most of the wheel gap, and the handling will be 1000 times better (hopefully).

Mad Jap

Good thread.

Some good opinions/thoughts/experiences in this one.

With that being said, here are my thoughts.

As you can see in my sig, I've done a bit of work to my suspension. Not a lot, but enough. I like cars that handle well. It gives one the confidence in the corners and in the rain. Yes, I have owned RWD cars that had 50/50 weight distribution, and they do handle well.

After the suspension work that I did on my Max, I still run the stock 15 inch alloys. Like red112fl, I also run the Firestone SH30 tires. If anyone out there is thinking about getting new 15 inch tires, get the SH30. They are quiet, handle extremely well, slices through rain like a ****, and they are very affordable. I have over 35k miles on my set, and they look like they can go another 30k.

I was tinkering with the idea of going to 17" wheels to improve the appearance of my Max....then I thought .....why mess with this? I have a car that handles well, accelerates like a bat out of he11, and I have the stock "sleeper" factor. More aggressive wheels will just tip off the prey on the streets. (The only 17" wheels that I would consider would be the Centerline RPM, at 13 lbs. each)

I decided to keep the stockers.

Anywayz, the point that I'm trying to make is that you should use what works for you. If your game is to look great rolling, get the big alloys. If you want to kick some Honda butt at the redlight, keep the stockers.

Kevin Wong

I have the Brembo Gran Turismo Big Brake Kit and I can't go down to anything below 17's. Once I get my SFC's on the car, my ride should be a lot more comfortable. But yeah, I agree with what you say. 15" wheels with modified suspension should be sweet. With my 17's I really like it on 1/2. Hopefully the SFC's do their job.