runelind

I drove my friends 2000 GTP yesterday, and I was seriously underimpressed. When I sat in the drivers seat it felt like I got behind the wheels of a big lincoln towncar. The layout of the interior felt clumsy and awkward. When I stepped on the go pedal I was expecting a kick in the pants, what I got was a frown on my face. Sure it is faster than my 190hp 5sp maxima, but is it as fun to drive? No way! I kept my eye on the boost gauge, and it didn't seem like it was adding that much power at all. I guess I'm used to that feeling of flooring the 850 Turbo and having to fight the torque steer. She's been saying that her GTP can kick the crap out of the 850 Turbo, but after my test drive I don't think it would be a very close race at all.

PS

There wasn't some kind of sports mode that I'm missing is there?

MaximaPower

iTrader: (3)

i thought 5sp max were faster than the GTP??

RastaManMax

iTrader: (5)

It is.... Granted the 5sp driver can shift

DTR Maxima

well they are, but the gtp is a good counterpart. its only like a 2-3 tenths of a second difference in the 1/4mile. so assuming you can shift, a 5speed max should beat a gtp by a considerable amount. i think he was just under the wrong impression because of the massive torque on the gtp, it would kill us off the line, but the max would pull eventually especialy at higher speeds. after 80mph the gtp takes its sweet time to climb any higher

blizz20oma

iTrader: (1)

I dunno, pontiacs always seemed to cater to a specific crowd to me. For some reason I liked the styling of at least one or two years of the GTP (I believe 96-97, or right before the current generation), and I like most of the styling on the newer GTPs/Grand Am GTs...but the way they ride, handle, and perform always seemed unimpressive to me. I was going to lease a 00 Grand Am a while back before I bought my integra (my first personally-owned car), but after a couple test drives, was turned off really by it's mediocreness, and I didn't even know much about cars at all then.

Another thing is reliability. A lot of people say domestics are right up to par these days in reliability with most common imports, but I still know too many people that have had premature troubles with their GMs. My parents Intrigue GS is in the shop right now...has under 10k on the odometer and is getting a new engine already (and they both drive really carefully/slowly/deliberately).
That's just one recent of a number of examples I have with people I directly know. I mean, I know all cars have problems and the tendency to have problems, but...

It seems to me that most people that drive their grand prixs/grand ams/etc hard either had the car bought for them (partially or fully), given to them, or just buy them because of styling, marketing, or having a GM in the past. Hey, I almost leased one just because I liked the styling...

Jer

iTrader: (2)

There's a performance shift which became discontinued in 2000 I think?

Anyways, expect a stock GTP to run 14.7. An investment of about $140 will get you a smaller pulley and a cone, and low 14's/high 13's. Don't have to take my word for it; there's lotsa timeslips that prove it

Very fast car, but it's cheap.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I think a statement like "expect a stock GTP to run 15.2 but know its possible for them to run 14s with the right conditions, driver, and planetary alignment" would be more accurate. There were 5 GTPs and 1 Regal GS at the track last Friday.... guess how many were running 14s? Zero. 15.1 @ 89 was the quickest of the day, stock or modded.

In Chicago I've seen quick GTPs, there are TONS in that area, but man at my local track, they are just lame.

runelind

I am sure they have a lot of potential, but stock they feel very clumsy and heavy compared to the maxima. The HUD is way way cool though

Greystar

Think again. In reasonable weather (75F or lower, heat soak really kills any motor with a non-intercooled roots type supercharger) that vast majority of stock GTP's will run mid-high 14's stock. Especially when the driver learns how to launch them (it's not just wait and slam on the gas; unless you don't like your tires anyways).

I had a whopping $150 in work done to my GTP (el-cheapo home made CAI, 180 degree thermostat and a 3.4" pulley) and on a cool day with track prep (headlight out, front tires at 24psi) I was running 13.5's. Now granted very few GTP's do that with the few mods I have (I only know of a handful that are that fast with that little), but most GTP's with those mods will run 14.0's / 14.1's with an ok launch (1.9 or 2.0 60' times will put them into high 13's).

Now unlike some people I won't bash another car. GTP's are good cars, Maxima's are good cars. It's all about personal preference. The biggest thing a Max has over the GTP is the availability of a manual transmission. The biggest thing the GTP has over the Max is the gobs of torque the motor puts to the ground.

Welp anyways have fun with your cars folks; god knows that's what it's all about. I'm outta work in two hours and will enjoy my new Firebird (traded in the GTP on it last week; nothing beats the fun of a RWD, V8 and manual transmission; ok well some thigns do, but you see the point)if it's not raining .

Oh yeah I know there will be some nay-sayers saying I couldn't have run those times, but here you go:
http://www.greystar.org/Car/timeslips/
http://www.greystar.org/Car/timeslip1.jpg

KillerGTP

ummmm excuse me? 15.2 stock? i ran a 14.7 bone *** stock in my gtp. most run mid to high 14s stock with a decent driver

MaximaPower

iTrader: (3)

wow good read.

now did u read the part that he says that gtps are capable of 14s stock?
scroll back up and read his post again plz.

soopermax02

The very first time I went to the track with my 2k2 was during an elimination event. I got paired up with a 2001 GTP and when I launched in my automagic I was manually shifting. At the time I didn't realize that I had to shift _before_ I got close to redline and hit the rev limiter really hard in 1st and a bit in 2nd.

I got a 15.2 and wasn't eliminated...

After the race I realized I needed to shift well before redline (as it takes some time for the planetary gears to respond) and was knocked out by a Benz C-class (non-AMG) with some work. That race went much smoother, but in hindsight I think I was shifting too early as I only ran a 14.91, and people with stock 2k2 autos here on the Org have posted 14.6's.

It was just a month or so after I bought my car and both races were really close. It was actually a very poorly run event, there were basically only two catagories; sports cars, and sedans. I paid $35 and only got two races!

DTR Maxima

GTP's are nice cars. and they put out a lot of power for a heavy automatic. but think about it. GM needed a supercharger to get those times. yes some gtp's run mid to high 14's stock but from what i see they usually do 15-15.4 compare it to the 2k2 max. the max has .3 liters less and has faster times and is not supercharged. so i think that says enough about what GM needs to make a sedan fast

AkumaMax

Nealoc187 where do u live in chicago.

ivelweyz

I saw a max in in Chi Town yesterday. It was black, had clears. Don't know if it belongs to someone on the org or not, it was around Harlem Ave. and Diversy Ave. parked by a house...

NE1 4 69

hey i just test drove one of those gtp's.... if you get the traction control option it pulls hard outa tha box. it was rather impressive. still woulfnt trade my 3KGT VR4 or my max but still. i have to give gm props, they put togather a nice package and for under 30k not bad of a car.
although i think max's are much easier ta mod. not as much work to be done in the engine. now 3KGT pssssst talk a baout a ***** ta mod but the gains you get are frigin amazing....

hope to see some of you other max drivers out and about in chi town.

later

purmax

hey as$, go back to your own forum, no one asked for your .02

soopermax02

Yeah sure. Maybe with Michael Schumacher driving and a tornado to his back. For starters the car weighs over 3550 Lbs, that's 300 Lbs more than a stock 2k2 Automatic Maxima. At 240HP and a redline under 6500k it's just not possible. Even looking on the GTP forums people don't claim these numbers.

When I ran a 2001 GTP I beat it with a 15.2 (my first ever run). Get an intercooler and maybe, but no chance no how dead stock. I guess the driver of the 2001 GTP I ran must have been terribly inexperienced? Drivers make a difference, but a not a full second.

-Sooper

AniX

wow that was really classy, maybe you should grow up, and not make an a$$ of your self. There is no need for that. You are just being immature, even though he can't read, and posts stupidly it was uncalled for, be polite on the forums, more respect is had from that then from flaming people!

_DRU_

with my slipping clutch and intake, a GTP pulled about half a car on me to 80mph. not sure what he had done to his car but sure was loud.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Well that thing uses a SC'd 3.8 liter pushrod v6. And to add, they use an Eaton SC? Gobs a low end but I don't think it breaths well up top(I could be wrong) Anyhoo, 3.8 liters and a SC is impressive but the hp doesn't impress me too much. The 4-gen guys running a low boost 3.0 liter and Vortech SC are putting up better numbers w/ lower boost and 0.8 liters less displacement.

purmax

ok, i'm sorry

NE1 4 69

wow can you feel the love in this room.
hmmmmm as rodney king would say "Caint we aww jus get aloung"
or something like that.

AniX

No, dont worry about it, its just that there is already enough flaming in the max org we dont need more, unless its a real idoit. But for people that dont take the time to read the statements and reply based on the title, its not worth it. After all he drives a GTP, and its not worth beans next to a 95 SE 5 speed Max. Take it easy everyone.

Sorry if I come across as preachy, but we need to be kind to other people. Especially when its people of different forums.

PEASE

GTPguy97

You are clueless and very closed-minded if you dont believe that a GTP can run 14.70-14.90's stock. I dont have any idea what forums you were checking but if it was ClubGP.com you would find countless people who have run those times stock. Running 15.2+ in a GTP is just plain sad, and very rare also.

As for the endless GTP vs. 5-speed Max debate.......with an excellent 5-speed driver the Max has a slight chance of winning. How many Maximas (pre-02) have hit the 14's stock? A few? If there are any stock 5-speed Maximas in the Chicago area that would like to see what's up I know of a couple stock GTP's that would be game.

Later,

GTPguy97
97 GTP Sedan
3.4 pulley, CAI & Exhaust
14.35 @ 97.89

Dave B

Tell me how many stock pullied GTPs went 14s last year at GPG at KCIR or even the year before that Lower 15s@89-90 out of stock pullied GTPs was the norm. Many had intakes, exhaust work, iced intakes, and pulled headlights too. But maybe it's the track because the 14-second GT Grand Prixs were pulling mid to high 15s. I was running 14.8s@95mph that night which meant I was ~.2 slower than the most of the 3.4 pullied GTPs. I could match thier MPHs, but not the ETs.

With all that pro-Maxima stuff said , I agree with you that many GTPs have gone well into the 14s in stock form. Whether you GP guys want to admit it or not, there have been many 95-02 Maximas that have gone deep 14s in stock form too and we don't have near the member base or track experience that GP-owners.com has.

I wish you were coming to GPG 02 because I really want to run you especially after I install my variable stage intake manifold. I can't believe you pass on such a great opportunity to meet with your fellow GP owners. You get to go to KCIR, run the road course at Heartland Park, go to the GP assembly plant, stay at a very sweet hotel, and have an awesome car show AND you only live 9 hours away. Hell, I go to the track and go to the GP car show and meet many nice GP owners.


Dave

boo

I have always liked the GTP's and was very near buying one before the Max. Reliability did it for me. They are both quick cars but
I have to agree with runelind, the GTP does not feel as quick but
numbers do show that it equals a stock 5spd Max . I believe the Max to be a much more exciting drive. My wife raced a GTP a month ago with me in the car. We beat it by 1 car length to 80mph. So that helps assure me that the Max is just as fast if not faster than a stock GTP.

On the other hand you won't find 25 cars on the org posting numbers like this at the track. I wish we could all get to those numbers!

http://www.gp-owners.com/cgi-asp/qtrmile.asp

As mentioned before any GTP driver just needs a few hundred dollars for a smaller pulley to start seeing low 14's high 13's depending upon pulley upgrade.

But Max's are still the most fun to drive and have good potential!!

GTPguy97

It doesn't really matter how many stock GTP's hit 14's at KCIR, if no stock GTP's were doing it than I would guarantee you there weren't any stock Maximas even close. From what I've heard of it KCIR is a piece of **** and I would never run my car there.

So there are many stock Maximas DEEP into the 14's??? How deep? Oh wait, you included the 02's in there.....nevermind. From 95 through 02 I would bet it's a safe guess to say the majority of 14 second passes were done with 02's.

And like I've told you before, I would love to go to GPG, I would love to meet you and run you and buy you a beer after I beat you......but, I have shot my wad on solo trips for the year. I have 1 fishing, 1 golfing, and 1 automotive (GTOAA) solo trip every year. I'm not about to even try and add another.

Later,

Dave B

Yep, KCIR does suck, but you guys do get a lot of respect when you show up in large numbers.

I can think of five 5 speed 95-99s that went 14.7-14.9s in stock form, I know of three 00-01s that went 14.7-14.9s in stock form, and then there are the 02s which go 14.2-14.9s. I consider 14.7 fairly deep 14s, wouldn't you? Remember that very few guys in this Org go to the track, especially on a regular basis. The quickest stock Maximas are the manuals and from 95-01 only 10% of the Maximas in the US-market are manuals. In this Org, the ratio of auto vs stick is about 7:1 (at last count) therefore the ratio of 14-second passes vs 15-second+ passes is very small. All 97+ Grand Prix GTPs are autos therefore the difference in performance between cars isn't as substainial as in the Maxima. An auto Max is ~.5 seconds and 4mph slower on average. A larger member base and a single tranmission offered in GTP creates a larger group of guys getting stock 14-second slips. Another thing I'll add is that most GTP guys are concerned about performance and not the "bling bling". Most of our member base like a little "bling bling" which dramatically slows down a small NA V6. The GP crowd is largely composed of guys that are gearheads at heart, have owned musclecars in the past, and attend the track on a regular basis which = more track experience which = overall better times. Did that all make sense

I understand that you only have so much vacation available, but I could never pass up an event like GPG, especially when it's so close to your hometown. But that's just me. One of these day we'll probably run'em and who knows who'll loose. I'll buy you a beer either way.


Everyone else:
As for the trash talking about the quality of the GP, the GP isn't a poor quality car. I've rented the GTs for work and test drove GTPs prior to getting the Maxima. I found the GPs quite well put together. Handling was a bit poor with lots of lean, but the ride was good. The interior had way too much plastic and the leather felt cheap, but that's a GM thing. The power of the GTP was quite good and was slightly weaker towards the top of second. Around town the motor feels very strong. I wish my Maxima had the lowend like the GTP. Two things held me back from buying a GTP. I was a bit worried about the 4T65E tranny holding up against extra power and I thought the dealers were asking way too much for the GTPs. I was able to save ~$3000 buying my Maxima. My goal has always been to make my Maxima competitive in straightline acceleration vs a pullied GTP. I think I'm already there with $1000 in NA mods. Once I recieve the VI manifold, I think I'll exceed my expectations.


Dave

GTPguy97

Yeah, that's a pretty good argument.....good enough for me. Hey, I've seen firsthand from Brian how fast a modded Max can be. I think in general though the majority of stoplight wars are going to be won by GTP's, they're just easier to drive. Finding someone who can get the absolute max out of a Max isn't easy, the really good drivers are few & far between.

As for the trans? I'm almost at 120K on the stock tranny that has been modded over 1/2 its life. Am I lucky? Damnstraight I am. I expect this baby to grenade everytime I take it out, yet it keeps on chugging along....shifting smooth & strong. Someday....BOOM!!!

As far as exceeding your expectations? Not so fast big guy! You'll have to do alot better than a 14.6 to say you are on par with pullied GTP's. Now I will assume you are meaning GTP's that have the proper intake and exhaust mods to back up the pulley, right? Not just a stock GTP with a 3.4 slapped on it. I'm at 14.3 with the 3 mods and I'm just average at best. Lots of guys are into the 13's with the 3 and lots more are low low 14's. So I'll believe this VI manifold is a miracle mod, and that you'll be showing pullied GTP's your tailights, when you come back with a slip much better than 14.6.

Later,

Craig Mack

GTP's are front wheel drive right? So, they have as much of a traction/torque steer problem as us right? Also, boosted cars from the factory are ALOT easier to be made faster then N/A ones. Slap a supercharger on a Maxima and bye-bye GTP! Take the Supercharger off the GTP and it's going to get destroyed. The thing I don't get is with a roots blower (Lots ot torque) + FWD, how does the GTP get any traction?

BTW, GTP's are cool and rare. I have alot of respect for 'em, but I would never get one becuase they are only offered in automatic. That and they are too big for me. IMHO a true sports sedan at least offers a standard transmission. I hate auto's soo much I converted mine to 5spd.

GTPguy97

Yes GTP's are FWD. But to tell you the truth I have never had any torque-steer problems with mine at all. I point it forward hit the gas and it goes forward, not left or right. Traction of course is a problem, and this is where a slight skill is needed in launching them. Keep the car right at the point of losing traction until you can get the pedal to the floor and you'll have awesome launches that will win you lots of races. Floor it off the line and you'll either smoke the tires or go into traction control, either way wont be productive towards winning many races.

Yes again, boosted cars are much easier to mod than NA cars. But dont go into the argument of "If the Max had an SC", or "If the GTP were NA".....that's just silly. They are what they are, judge them and compare them for what they are. Otherwise I could say "Yeah, but what if the GTP had a manual?"

AND GTP'S ARE RARE???? Huh? Where do you live that they are rare? By me, and any place else in the country that I have visited GTP's are just like Maxima's....a dime a dozen.

Later,

Dave B

Craig-

Here in Kansas City, GPs are everywhere. Of course the GP plant is in our town though. I'd say half of all the GPs I see are GTPs.

The GTP does have gobs of torque, but they aren't that hard to launch. For FWD and drag racing, I would much rather have a lot of torque and an auto. A 5 speed is a blast most of the time, but getting off the line with a 5 speed is a bit of a pain. Finding that fine line between spin and all out traction is hard. The VQ is also prone to bogging pretty hard if you launch too low. The GTP has so much torque that it can recover very fast from a bog and they're instantly in their powerband at the start of a race. Visually, you can see how hard the well modded GTP takes off at the line. You can also see where the GTP starts to fall short, top of 2nd. You can clearly the see the GTP slow down a bit in the topend vs it's initial 1/8 mile. That's the Roots blower working against the car. it's also why you heare about GTPs running high 13s at low 96mph traps. Strong lowend, but no highway legs (compared to it's 0-70 performance).


GTPguy97-

I'm referring to what 3.4" pullied GTPs (intake, exhaust) run at my track on average (14.3-14.6s@96). Will allow my Maxima to actually let my Maxima breath straight to the 6500 fuel cut instead of dying at 5300rpms. My car's current powerband is 4000-5300rpms, but it will be extended to 4500-6500 with no plenty in lowend torque. An extra 700rpms to accelerate with in in every gear is huge. A .3 drop in ET and a gain of 3mph is the norm. It's almost like running a 3.4" pulley vs the stocker By the time GPG rolls around, I might also have my short 24" drag radials too which will be nice since most GTP guys at KCIR run drag radials. The short 24" tire will increase torque multiplication too and I'll actually get to use a lot of 4th gear.


Dave

Craig Mack

Dave, you are SOO right about the VQ and bogging, although you get used to it and begin to know how to use it.

Here in Central Florida I rarely see GTP's. I see tons of Grand Am's and Grand Prixs, those damn things are everywhere, but rarely a GTP. If you ever do move down here you will know what i'm talking about. We have tons, and I mean TONS of riceboys that I'm sure you'd enjoy frying! We also have the cocky domestics who just look at you and laugh...I've had the pleasure of teaching a couple a few lessons before back when I was automatic.

Anyways, back on subject...I guess when you start boosting automatics with built trannys, they are better. Way easier to launch, and they will get movin' quick if you pump enough juice through the motor.

GTPguy97

Well the top of 2nd is pretty much the end of the 1/4 so no biggie there. And to tell you the truth I dont feel my car falling off even as I shift it to 3rd to take me the last little bit through the traps. There's no doubt stock GTP's are known for being weak up top, but once modded properly it's my opinion that a GTP is just as potent as a Maxima up top. I've seen it myself when I raced Brian, we did one from a roll and I pulled slightly on him just as I pulled slightly on him from a stop...after I recovered from a horrible launch. Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I've totally missed the GTP's running 13's with only 96mph traps. Most of the 13 second cars I see have 98 or better with the guys who are more solidly in the 13's (13.5-13.7) doing it at 100+. They are not as weak as you seem to try and make them out to be.

Later,

MaximaPower

iTrader: (3)

wait..wat??
u finish the 1/4 on top of 2nd? ur 2nd gear goes up to the 90+ mph??

Nismo3112

iTrader: (12)

I doubt it, but he did say pretty much

GTPguy97

Dont doubt it, I shift to 3rd at 93mph to get the last 5mph of the 1/4 done. Is this hard to believe? I never thought it was an amazing thing or anything special.

Later,

DTR Maxima

i guess it could be but my mom drives a grandprix. its not a gtp but i dont think it makes much of a difference. but when i drive her car hard the tranny shifts into 3rd around 72. and when shifting myself i go into 3rd around 78mph. you still have 3rd and 4th to ride out and those things top out at like 115-120. so i dont exactly see how in the world you shift into 3rd at 93mph
just me .02

GTPguy97

Well in this case your $.02 is totally worthless because trust me, I would have absolutely no reason to lie about this as there are a thousand GTP owners who can testify that when you are drag-racing you start off with the shifter in 2 and leave it there until 93mph. I have no idea what GP GT's or SE's do, they are limited to 108 while the GTP's are limited to 126. I guess 1st & 2nd gears are tall while 3rd & 4th are short, my 1st tops out at 45mph....anybody wanna call BS on that? And GTP's w/ the PCM mod (no limiter) are going 150+ no problem. I think one guy has gone 156.

Later,