The impression I get is that Honda's very concerned that the sales on the Honda lineup may detract from Acura sales. Unlike with Nissan/Infiniti, the superior powertrains wind up in Acuras while Hondas get a less flattering setup. The J32A or J35A can easily replace the J30A in the Accord V6 AND be mated to the TL's 5sp auto BUT they hold back. The 240hp J35A just made the Odyssey this year and is the sole motor for the Pilot. Currently this motor is in both the Honda AND Acura camp (MDX). However, I understand that there will be a 260hp V6 (probably a tweaked J35A) in the new MDX (2003 or 2004). Odds are this motor won't be in the Odyssey or Pilot when it appears in the MDX.

What Honda needs is someone like Carlos Goshn running the show and then we may see a J32A2 Accord V6 or a K20 Civic EX. (Damn! If Honda had Carlos a few years ago, there could have been an H22A in the 4cylinder Accord and a J32A in the V6.)

What's needed is for Honda Accord sales to drop measurably in order for Honda to get serious about adding some real performance to the Accord.

Alas, Honda only occassionally glances in its rear view mirror at Nissan as it races Toyota in the sales race.

One thing they have on us though is a coupe version. I doubt the Altima will come out in a coupe version. Of course, there is the new Z.

That car looks BUTT UGLY. I am sitting here trying to image a body kit on it but my mind is failing miserably. It does make nice horsepower though but its just looks like a dad's car and not a entrepreneur like the Maxima

Jesse

Why thank you. I do try.

Quote:
Nissan and Toyota both know [about the U.S. preference for low-end torque over peak horsepower] and this is what they put in their V6 cars.

Absolutely right. Taking a page out of the V6 Camry's specifications, we have the following numbers:

Horsepower: 192@5300 rpm
Torque: 209 ft-lbs@4400 rpm

Now before balking at those numbers, look closer. The engine peaks at 5300 rpm, an indicator of a relatively slow-turning engine that doesn't need to be revved to Pluto and back to make usable horsepower. It probably runs out of gas well before 6000 rpm; revving it past 5500 is surely pointless. But when you've got 209 pound-feet of torque at a lazy (for a DOHC V6) 4400 rpm, you don't need to. Pair this low-revving-but-still-supremely-smooth grunter with Toyota's 4-speed automatic transmission, and what you have is a drivetrain that'll almost certainly be better suited to bumper-to-bumper urban driving than Honda's 240 horsepower screamer, particularly in a family car.

Where Honda seems to miss the boat entirely is the issue of tuning. Does Jane the mid-level manager give a damn why she'll have to rev the crap of her '03 V6 Accord to make any real power? Will she understand the intricacies of Honda's VTEC system enough to realize that there's an engineered-in reason as to why her $25K Accord feels like a wet sponge from a stop?

No, she will not. All she'll know is that if she wants to really get going with any kind of authority, she has to rev the **** out of her engine and make one helluva racket. And while she might eventually be able to catch that 5.9L Dodge pickup that she was trying to get around at the stoplight 100 feet back, she'll know the frustration of watching that piece of crap truck move to 15 miles an hour with more verve and less effort than her Accord could ever do. (And she'll be especially frustated on those steamy summer days when she's got the air conditioner running.)

Now if Jane is used to four-cylinder cars or traded up from an older V6 Accord, most of this nonsense probably won't bother her. But I'll tell you this: If the Honda redesign moved her over from an American family car, say a GM product with the corporate 3800 V6 or a DaimlerChrysler with its 3.5, those days of effortless torque will occasionally pop into her head like the breezy thoughts of the boyfriend she dumped three years earlier, only to realize the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Okay, I'm getting carried away metaphorically. But the bottom line with much of the Honda lineup is this: The company sometimes sticks engines in its passenger cars that are fundamentally inappopriate for the platform they're in. Nowhere is this more damning than in the Accord, a basic people-hauler that positively begs for a relatively low-revving, unobtrusive powertrain that produces good low-end torque.

Toyota knows this; they comply. Nissan knows this; they follow, perhaps even going a bit overboard in the torque and horsepower departments (who's complaining?) Is Honda really so arrogant that the company insists on giving American drivers what it thinks they need, versus what they clearly indicate they want time after time after time? I think so, yes. And while Honda's engineering and assembly quality is without peer, if the company stays on this slippery slope it'll come back to bite sales in the butt. As an automotive manufacturer, you can't sell cars by telling people what they want. You've got to build what they want. In the '70s and '80s, GM did the former. So did Ford and Chrysler. And it damned near killed all three of them. Honda can get by on its sterling reputation for only so long before its customers start taking test-drives in vehicles with better-tuned powertrains and asking themselves hard questions, like whether having that "H" on the front is worth regularly getting blown into the weeds by Buicks and Dodges in their day-to-day urban stoplight wars.

I think a lot of you are underestimating the new Accord V6. I am not saying it is perfect or that it will blow nissan away in performance because we all know that Honda is not trying to accomplish this. You are making the new Accord seem like it came here to take on the altima and maxima because its power was boosted to 240hp. If Honda wanted the Accord to beat the Altima and Maxima in all performance categories then they could do that but they aren't. The set goal was to make this new Accord attractive to more buyers. This 240hp number will definantly help that with the younger croud like me . If I wanted a sedan that could give me all out performance and nothing else well then nissan would be a great choice but I want more than performance. Luxury, reliabtilty, resale value, performance are all on my list of wants. The altima and Maxima cannot give me that.

I want to mention something as well that some of you might not see yet. The Acura CL-S has 260Hp and 232Tq but can beat the Maxima and Altima through the 1/4 mile with help of the 5AT. Now if the CL-S had the 4AT out of the 1999 TL or 98-02 AV6 well then It could not beat the Max or Alti. The new Accord V6 has 240hp and 212tq with a 5AT and weighs a couple hundred pounds less then the CL-S. The new AV6 I don't think will be as slow as Stevtec thinks with his tests.

PLEASE NO ARGUEMENTS!! You are very welcome to respond to my post but no need to fight over a car and its acceleration ratings!

http://sohc.vtec.net/news_files/26225/03coupe-08.jpg

This is a picture of the new 03' Accord V6 coupe. Pretty sick huh!!?

Hey Stevtec....to make your tests more accurate I have found the actual curb weights of the new Accord EX V6 coupe and sedan.

-Coupe 6-speed weight is 3265lbs
-Coupe 5-speed Auto is 3298lbs

-Sedan 5-speed auto 3360lbs

These came from http://beta.vtec.net/forums/one-mess...tem%5fid=26225

I am really curious to see how the 6-speed does!


Here are some pictures of the interior of the 6-speed coupe, and auto sedan. Some are V6 and some are LX pics. Exterior pics of coupe and sedan are there too. The Interior is so nice!!
http://beta.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=26225

It becomes an arguement if what you are saying is not completely factual First, the Maxima is much more luxurious than the Accord. Have you been in both cars? The Max's quality IMO is better, plain and simple. Reliability is on par with both vehicles. Consumer reports and almost all other publications agree with this. I agree with you on resale value but that is Nissan in general. BTW, the Acura-tls is NOT faster than a 2k2 Maxima. Check the 1/4 times on the org. They are almost dead even (14.6)with the Max being even a bit faster than a TLS.

I'm not starting a flame war here. I'm just straightening out the facts

http://www.thecarconnection.com/imag...5905_image.jpg

http://www.thecarconnection.com/imag...5906_image.jpg

http://www.thecarconnection.com/imag...5904_image.jpg

http://sohc.vtec.net/news_files/26225/03coupe-14.jpg

http://a799.ms.akamai.net/3/799/388/...ws/1572418.jpg

You're right actually, and thanks for the weight data!

My Projected Numbers for the 03 AV6 are SLOW.

I slightly overestimated the weight increase, and I also underestimated the redline. My weight was 40 lb too high, and the redline for the V6 clearly close to 7000rpm, probably about 6800rpm. I ran the simulations with a standard 6300rpm redline.

I'll post updated projections when I have time to complete them in a day or so.

Also, let's not turn this thread into TL-S/CL-S vs 2k2 Maxima. Both cars can run high-14's stock. The TL-S is theoretically at a disadvantage (more weight, less torque), but the extra gear makes up for it and lets leave it at that

You have me wrong......I never said that the TL-S was faster because I know they are both about equal but I did state that the CL-S is faster. No big deal anyway because these two cars aren't the topic of discussion so I will just drop it. The Maxima is not more luxurious then the Accord but it does cost more. The AV6 has every option standard where the Maxima has to be upgraded with many options. The only advantage the Maxima has to this 5 year old 6th generation Accords interior is optional navigation and heated seats. The Navigation wasn't even an option in 1998-2000 when the AV6 came out. However the new Accord V6 is more luxurious then the 2003 Maxima in my opinion. Telescoping wheel, Voice activation Navagation, Heated seats and MP3 Player are all new for the 2003 AV6. Nissan does a good job with the maxima but I feel the Accord shines through well beyond the Maxima. We will just have to wait and see what Nissan has in store for the New 2004 Maxima!

I agree that the new accord is more luxurious but it is newer right. Remember, the Max will also be redesigned next year and will definitely be more luxurious than an Accord (will compete against full size luxury brands). Of course it will become a huge boat but that is another discussion

Right now, the accord (not the new one) is NOT nearly as good as a 2k2 GLE. They come with similar options but the 2k2 max is more luxurious with 255 hp with only a $2000 price difference.

You are right about the 255hp but that is not a matter of luxury. That is a performance category and plus we are talking about a 5 year old platform for the Accord V6. I test drove a 2002 Nissan Maxima GLE and the price tag read 29,500. The interior is nice but the fit and finish in the Accord wins hands down in my opinion. My price tag on my accord V6 was 25,500 and I got it out the door for 23,000. I am sure the Maxima can be had for cheaper then 29,500 but it can't match the Accords value.

29500 Thats too much. You can get a GLE around SD for 24,500 and bargain it down UNDER INVOICE. The Maxima compete extremely well in this price range and is the best bang for the buck in almost any class. In the $30k range, any of the regular japanese brands (honda, nissan, toyota) cannot compete with the luxury marquees (infiniti, acura, lexus).

I agree, no way is the Accord more luxurious than Maxima, Maxima doesnt compete with Accord anyway. 2 different segments of the population buy each car. When most people think Accord they say oh ok(plain Jane and on every corner in subsatanial #'s), when they say Maxima they say those are nice.

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but has anyone seen this article with the final photos?

Accord newstory

Wow, that story is dated one day in the future!

As for the photos... blech.

wow..i'm starting to like the new accord even more now.
i think it's a great car, and now it's caught up and will be very tempting......but the sedan looks like crap...i like the coupe but wat will happen to the base CL?? the Accord coupe looks almost like the CL and with 240 hp it's even better.
thumbs up for the new accord coupe, V6 of course

J30A1: i also saw the 2k2 GLE maximas price tag for around 30k which is way too expensive but of course it could be had for less..also u can't compare a 2k2 Maxima to an accord..so of course the accord is cheaper than a max..besides i dont think an accord belongs in a "luxury" class...yet

Are the price tags for the GLE always like that? I know they can be had for less but 29,500 is Infiniti I35 Territory. I agree that the Accord or the Maxima don't belong in the luxury class. The I35, TL-S are more luxurious. I believe the Maxima and Accord are in the same class with the exception of all out performance.

Well, if you consider space luxury. The 5th gen Maxima has way more interior space than the Accord.

Also, it seems the new Accord won't be as "luxurious" as far as interior comforts/convenience goes.

Some quote's taken from Edmund's first drive impressions:

"We were also dissatisfied with the size of the trunk, which, at 14 cubic feet, is smaller than the Mazda 6, Nissan Altima, Toyota Camry and Volkswagen Passat. Notably, the Accord comes with a mini-spare; the Passat has a fullsize spare tire."

"And if you do decide to go for the top-of-the-line EX V6, don't expect a one-touch open or close sunroof, one-touch open or close feature for any but the driver window, or automatic light-sensing headlights. Honda rejected these luxuries for cost reasons."

"The styling is more polarizing than before, but is still somewhat timid when compared to the Nissan Altima and Mazda 6. And as far as sport sedan performance goes, well, both the Nissan and Mazda are emotional driver's cars. This Honda is not."

"It is a functional, safe, economical and dependable family vehicle. Some will even call it stylish. But a sport sedan? Not on your life."

I consider performance to be luxury. And apparently so does Honda, as they always seem to manage to cripple their mainstream Honda engines but put the good parts in the much more expensive Acura's.

I like Nissan's philosophy better. Give performance to everyone and don't force them to pay $8k more for an Infiniti if all you want is performance.

Here's a good thread to checkout at AccordV6.com

http://www.v6accord.com/forums/showt...threadid=11291

Here's the Edmunds.com 2003 Accord First Drive

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadt...23/article.htm

In support of this, the matching horsepower is nice, but this will only get the AV6 close to the Altima when you're running flat out on the highway. Forget about it at lower speeds. Torque is what you need to accelerate hard and give you a great sense of performance. The Nissan cars have this. The new AV6 does not.

212 lb-ft vs 246 lb-ft. And without much low-end torque, you're still going to need the same massive prod of the accelerator to get the car moving. Automatic owners are not going to be happy if your goal is performance. Those that buy the 6spd will be MUCH happier because they'll be able to use the gearing MUCH more effectively to makeup for the lack of torque. 6spd owners will have fun chasing down Mustang GT's, but 5AT owners will once again have to sit on the sidelines.

Having owned a previous AV6 and now a Maxima, I can tell you that the AV6 is a darn boring car, IMHO. It's about as fun to drive as my fiance's Toyota Highlander (translation: not at all). The manual tranny really does make a difference, but the lack of a torquey V6 is still going to keep the grin factor down in the new Accord, IMHO.

A fully loaded GLE, although more expensive than an accord, is just the same as an Infiniti I35. It really does become a luxury car with all those features. There is almost NO difference between it and its luxury twin.

now that u mention it, i know that the price for the i35 is always 27-28k..i see it in the newspaper every week...which is less than the 2k2 gle price tag..interesting

but i dont agree with u on the maxima not belonging in the luxury class...i believe the fully loaded 5thgens are in the luxury class now.

i wonder wat the price tag on the new AV6 gonna be...new cars r getting so much harder to choose...too bad i can't afford anything right now

The 5th gen Maxima is far closer to the TL than it is to an Accord or Camry. In fact I don't think there is no car closer in comparsion to the Max than a TL as features and performance goes.

Maxima has never really competed with Acccord, Nissans Stanza, Altima has done that. Typically over the years The Maxima has offered and had more luxury than Accord, compare an 87 Maxima to 87 Accord, Maxima offered way more. It was at its peak in 90 when the top of the line Max GXE offered do Much more than an Accord EX did. Stop comparing Maxima to Accord, Maxima will always stay on top of it as far as luxury and many people donot cross shop the two anyways.

I agree. In terms of status, the Maxima has always been a little higher than an accord. Its always occupied the near luxury division. Accord has NEVER occupied that category.

right on!!

According to my fiance...

My 99 Maxima SE (fully loaded) is MORE LUXURIOUS than my 01 Accord EX V6 (fully loaded) was.

Little things like heated leather seats, outside temperature display, centrally located moonroof control, and a premium Bose audio system make a difference. According to her, my Maxima is now the "new standard" for future comparisons on other cars and not the Accord.

My 99 would have been in the same "class" as my Accord was, and one generation older, too.

That should pretty much settle this, because we all know that women are NEVER ever wrong

hehe

Interesting. So you're gay? You live in Canada where they allow same-sex marriages? I would never have guessed...

Sorry, every time I see the fiancé thing come up I giggle. All those years of college really paid off; I can now heckle people about word usage on the Internet. I really must get a life, no?

Yes, I am really a woman.

Nothing like digressing from a good topic of conversation. Here's another one: How 'bout them Mets?!?