What are you talking about setting me straight? I was the one who was straight, the other guy was plain wrong. I couldn't remember all the differences but I remembered the main ones.

 

What was Ford's V8 offering in the Mustang GT putting out in 1990? What was their first dohc 4.8 liter motor putting out in 1996?

 

In 1990, It was the 5.0 (Windsor) and put out either 215 or 225, I can't remember.

'96-'98 DOHC 4.6L = 305bhp
'99+ DOHC 4.6L = 320bhp
'93+ (???) Lincoln Mark VIII DOHC 4.6L = 285bhp
'94-'95GT 5.0L = 215bhp
'94-'95 Cobra 5.0L = 240bhp
'96-'97 SOHC 4.6L = 215bhp
'98 SOHC 4.6L = 225bhp
'99+ SOHC 4.6L = 260bhp
'03 DOHC 4.6L (supercharged) = 390bhp

That should just about cover your question.

 

If you read the post you quoted, all your questions are answered except the 1990 5.0. It was 225hp/300ft-lbs.

The modular V8 (4.6L) was introduced in 1991. I don't know when the DOHC version came out. I think it was 1993, and it was put into the Lincoln Mk VIII @ 285hp.

1996 - 1998 4.6L DOHC Cobra: 305hp/300ft-lbs
1999 & 2001 4.6L DOHC Cobra: 320hp/317ft-lbs
2003 4.6 DOHC Cobra with blower: 390hp/390ft-lbs
2000 5.4 DOHC Cobra R: 385hp 385ft-lbs(??)

 

Thanks. That was the info I was referring to. I wanted to know what Ford's 5.0 liter V8 was putting out vs Infiniti's 4.1 liter V8 was putting out.

 

Just like how you beat a Mustang

Quote:

Also...that's cool and all that you spent $3,000 on an embelem, and not $6,000. But just remeber who your daddy is if you pulled up next to me at a stoplight....I guess you could powerbrake that ol' slush box to try and get a decent jump from 0 - 30....

Well I didn't buy my car strictly for racing. If I did, I wouldn've bought... oh say... a MUSTANG, and then you'd be MY b-tch

 

You had just posted that the only real difference between the 98GT and the 99GT was a cam and better runners. The truth is the 99GT got better heads (most significant part), revised intake manifold, better cams, different pistons, and I believe slightly better mufflers. That's a lot more than just cams and different runners and those weren't remotely the "main ones" as you say.

You got owned, buddy


Dave

 

Ford tends to underrate their cars. For example, my Cobra made 220.8hp at the rear tires bone stock. It was rated at 240hp at the flywheel. Using 10-15% loss, my car made between 245 and 260hp stock. I'm up over the 300hp mark N/A give or take now, all from mionr bolt ons.

I wonder if that Infiniti 4.1's power was REAL horsepower of if it was Nissan Power... like this thread:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=166163

FWIW, Ford did the same thing to the 99 Cobra (made it with less power than advertised), but promptly fixed every one of them because the owner's bytched. I wonder if Nissan will do the same?!?

 

yes he did, he does not know what he was talking about. After he posted what he thought the improvement was, someone told him he was wrong. He continued to say that he knew what he was talking about in later post, but really does not. The real improvement was the heads. Bolt them on a 96-98 gt with flat top pistons, you get compression in the 10:4-10:6:1 area, and make about 10-15 more hp than a stock 99 GT with dished pistons. The heads flow a lot more cfm through the upper part of the rpm band, where as the 96-98 2v 4.6 heads just fall flat on their face after 5k. Still behind the mighty ls1, with some of them making in the 430-450rhwp area NA with stock displacement, but a bit closer. No replacement for displacement.

 

Dunno. Maybe maybe not. I just wanted to compare Ford's v8 and Nissan's V8 at the same years. Don't know why you keep stating your Cobra times.

Well to keep in the off-topic theme alive, Didn't Infiniti claim 330hp out of their latest version(2003 ish?) I know from the times, it's probably down to 310-320ish though.

 

OK....Being as that I was thinking of buying a 03 GT 5 speed I did a little research a while back. All things being equal and comparing apples to apples.

Equally Skilled Drivers:

From a stop to 1/4 mile:
GT will beat a 2k2 6 speed slightly (few tenths).
5 speed Maximas will lose by a roughly .5
Autos dont really have a chance.

From a roll:
GT will lose to a 2k2 6 speed
5 speed Maximas will hang near dead even with the GT
Autos will lose once again.

 

by autos do you mean all the maximas before the 3.5L?

 

All stock auto's

Edit for above post...3.5 Autos will put up a much better fight, but still lose.

 

and what factual information do you have to back any of this up with? I dont see how this is so. You have a stock 5 speed GT trapping in the 97-100MPH area, I know, I have done it. Do any stock maximas trap that high?

 

why did you say the 5-speed Maximas will be dead even with the GT then? 2k2+ Autos are just as fast, if not faster.

 

I quote my car to illustrate how insanely easy it is to hop up a SBF, and that includes the 4.6. Also to provide real data about Ford underrating their cars. That's all.

I don't care what Nissan does with their V8's until they put them in smaller cars that don't look worse than something in my cat's litter box. The new Z needs some serious asthetic improvement. Hell for that matter it needs real performance for the price they're charging. I like the Maximas a lot though. They're cool 4 door grocery getters that move.

But this is waaaaaaaaaaay off topic.

 

Well looks are subjective. The Z represents how most Japan/European styling is going. Hard edges width-wise w/ sloping curves length-wise. The latest version of the Mustang shows that also. Personally, the Mustang is actually nice. It's a good size for a Muscle car. I like the short overhangs on the front/rear. The F-body versions of the FB, Camaro etc.. with their long overhangs(especially in the front), really made the car look dated(despite the impressive powerplants). The Z is nice. The styling is refreshing and more interesting than the Mustang(this car is showing it's age and is due for a makeover). The Z rear is just okay but the overall package is outstanding.

BTW. I read your post before you edited it. I guess the original message wasn't smart-arsed enough? Oh well.

 

I agree, the new Z looks nice. I just wish it had a V8 in it. Not to dog on it, I know of plenty of lightning fast cars without V8's, it is just my preference.

 

Actually, yes. Quite a few bonestock 6 speed Maximas have trapped in the 97-98mph range running 14.2-14.3. With 2.2 60 foots too.


Dave

 

Not from a roll they aren't.

 

You know its funny how If one person claims to beat out the slowest V-8 mustang availible. If you every come over to a respectful mustang site, you will see that mustang owners rarely post any form of kill, unless it is impressive, ie. smoking a new vette, or staying with a porsche from a roll. You claim that a mustang will not last? there are many people that will not/have not thought twice about spraying or blowing a 150K plus motor in that quest for 11's or lower. I myself have 208,ooo miles on my original 5.0, it runs great, gets mid 20's with a slushbox, doesnt burn a drop of oil, and will real in low 14's. If it was a 5speed car, it would have 13's for sure. This spring in is getting a JYTT kit, 400+ RWHP for under $1000 is the plan, all on the stock 208K long block. You claim that mustang owners do not give a maxmia any support? its a 4 door family car! its not supposed to be fast, any little to any mustang owner sould race them. I myself am at the point where i wont race a car that isnt worth my time, the average civic with nnnaawwzzz stik3z and a fart cannon isnt worth me wasting gas on. Many of you dont understand what it is like to own a car, that everybody assumes is fast, and ohh its a mustang its gotta be fast!! or "oh a ex state trooper mustang??" "ive heard they had chips, and 351's and this and that, it must realy be fast" the mustang has always been the king of fast for cheap. Hell, a several people with a 88 LX's have taken them to the 12's with nothing more than tires, gears, pullies(5hp) and exhuast(10hp). they still only trap about 101mph in the quarter.. but its all in the torque curve and how you drive. racing from a roll proves nothing, take it to the track, or atleast from a stop. Its the same reason supra owner will not race from a stop.. becasue their 1000HP dyno queen only makes 200hp till 5000rpm.

 

I think I edited it to combine two messages into one. I'm not necessarily trying to be a smarta$$. I like the Maximas, as I said. If I ever posted that the original topic was impossible, I must have been drunk. Improbable? ABSOLUTELY, but possible none-the-less. Some of the shear lack of knowledge in some of the posts was like nails down a chalk board, but then again I don't know everything. The one that stands out most is that a Mustang doesn't make a broad power band. WTF???? I want to see a stock manual 2K2 Maxima's dyno sheet and we'll overlay it with a GT's to see which has more of a powerband. This will be interesting, especially given the thread on the 3274lbs manual SE lacking all the 255?? hp they were advertised to get from the factory. I can tell you now that a 3429lbs (auto convert GT) makes right about 235 +-5 hp at the tires so it makes as much or more than advertised.

Someone else said they like beating them with the girlfriend/other people in the car. Duh?!! more weight in a car that is already slightly heavier than your car to begin with will not make the GT faster. I suggest that if you are stock and you ever pull up next to one with only the driver in it, prepare to get your a$$ handed to you, especially if it has a manual. Lord help you if you have 2 of your buddies in the car and roll up next to a GT with a guy and a girl.

from here on this is waaaaayyyyy off topic

Looks may be subjective. The Mustang may be showing its age, and most people outside of Nissan/Z faithful may think the Z is FUGLY, but 1/4 mile figures and price are NOT subjective. In that catagory the Z looses to 2 of the three V8 Mustangs and is only slightly ahead of the lowly GT.

From Motor Trend, which is the first magazine I've seen get a Z in the 13's:
03 Z: 1/4: 13.9@102.3 price $34,288
03 Mach I: 1/4 13.8@102.5 price: $31,000
03 Cobra (I feel bad posting this ): 12.8@113.2 price: $34,750
01 Bullitt (fairly close to GT): 14.1@97.9

I know that real enthusiast drivers will get each of the cars up to .5 seconds faster, but those set of #'s were from the same place albeit on different days.

So for 3 grand less, you go slightly faster in the Mach I. For the same price, you get over a second faster in the 1/4 with the Cobra. Nissan had to know that these cars were coming out. Why didn't they give the Z some grunt? Oh well, the Z destroys everything else from Japan in its price range. Maybe that was their target.

 

mkoebra95

1) I never got into who beat what under what circumstances. So I don't really care about that.
2) Don't you think I would know about a dohc V8 displacing 4.6 liters and coil on plug ingition? Of course it would have a relatively wide powerband compared to a V6 displacing 3.5 liters! But then again, never disputed it.
3) I think what you fail to understand is, the Z is not just about 1/4 times. It's a part of it, yes but not the whole package. They wanted to attack the Europeans, which meant developing a car for handling also. You will note the track version features 18" Ray Engineering forged alloys and Brembro 4 pot brakes. Why didn't they make the motor put out more? Probably becuase they didn't have to. Why didn't Ford make their motors put out more to compete with the F-bodied LS series Chevys? I mean the Mustang loses almost every comparision test against it's main rival right? Answer..because they don't HAVE to. Despite being underpowered(price to price / model to model) to Chevy, Ford sold tons more Mustangs vs Camaros.
4) Again looks are subjective, didn't think I had to repeat that. If you prefer the looks of the Mustang so be it. I guess when you see a similar design for years, you get used to it. If you don't like the Z looks-wise, so be it. I couldn't really care either way.

 

Since you asked:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=166976

This thread shows a comparison between the stock power to weight ratios of the Maxima 6 speed vs the Bullit. As we all know (I seriously hope you do), the Bullit actually makes quite a bit more power below 5500rpms than the GT therefore a dyno comparo between the 6 speed Max and GT would even fair worse for the GT.

I've got lots of respect for Mustangs, but believe me, I don't shake in my boots when I line up against one at the track. Most Stang's bark is worse than thier bite. I've beaten more 5.0/4.6 Stangs at the track than I've lost to. Whether you want to believe me, that's up to you.


Dave

 

Good points Jeff. If you have ever ridden in a GM F-body, you'll know why they went out of production, unless you lust for total speed at the cost of everything else.

I replied to your post, but included a lot of thoughts about this whole 10 page deep thread, not just your stuff. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you said all that stuff. Sorry if it came off like that. We agree that there are a lot of subjective things about cars, especially looks. That arguement is dead as far as I'm concerned.

First off, the GT is a SOHC (although it has 2 total cams, one per cylinder bank) with 2 valve/ cylinder. One of the other people posted that the GT's power band is not as good as a Maxima. You seem like you know what you're talking about, and this should be like nails down a chalk board to you too.

The 03 Cobra, which is squarely in the Z's competition, handles with the best of them, even being a nose heavy car with an iron block. The Cobra, from 1994 (2nd year it was made), was designed to go after (don't laugh) the M3, not a Z28, so they are after the same target buyers. The current Mustang chassis is basically the same one that is under your neighbors 1978 Ford Fairmont, so it will never have the level of handling prowess of a freshly designed car. Anything that Ford does to make it hang with the top new cars in the world is testament to SVE's (Special Vehicle Engineering) ability. C&D said something to the effect that if SVE can do to this (03 handling) to the $hitty Mustang chassis they will hate to see what SVE can do to the 04 1/2 Mustang that will be based on the DEW98 Lincoln LS/Thunderbird/Jaguar chassis. FWIW, SVE has the wrong wheel drive (for performance) SVT Focus doing the slalom in about the same exit speed as the Z, with 100hp less and FWD to boot.

In all honesty, I don't run my car down the 1/4, I autocross it when I do race. Without the autobahn and twisty Italian 2 lane roads, I don't get to use 1/3 of my car's suspension here in the states. I would guess a lot of what's in the Z in that aspect will be wasted here on American buyers, except on a road course. All that being said, in my experience cars are measured by what they will do from light to light. The best measure of this is the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Again the Z is almost a second slower than the Cobra and .2 seconds slower than the Mach I. In racing that short of a distance, that is an eternity.

 

Actually a large part of the reason they have been discontinued is the ridiculous insurance cost. Combining the cost of the vehicle itself with the insurance cost soon put the car in an overall cost bracket that people who wanted them could not afford OR those who could afford them found themselves wanting more upscale vehicles.

 

There's a thread a blueovalnews.com that a guy took a new 03 GT to the track and got 14.0 @101 with everthing on the car untouched. Given break in time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are below 14.00. If a Maxima can go 14.2, one driven correctly can pick off a newer GT that isn't driven worth a $hit.

 

I see your points. Good stuff. I respect Ford as my family grew up on Ford. But I chose to cut my teeth on Nissans(510s etc instead). I see your points about the motor. Ford's Cobra motor is a good powerplant. One reason I tend to believe that(despite some of the recalls), is alot of the exotic independant automakers are using Ford's cobra motor and massaging them further or added SCs to them for their own limited production cars. I was also very intrigued when Ford introduced a BOLT ON double wishbone(?) suspension on one of their show cars(clearly they were looking at offering this suspension as an aftermarket option?) Ford's decesion to to IRS for their rear suspension was also interesting. Shows their commitment to handling despite the slightly slower 1/4 times it apparently resulted in. The mustang is actually in a good position to become a world class car IF Ford decided to go that route. But until they improve their interior quality and their overall attention to details, I don't think they can be true legitimate competitor to the BMW 330i/M3 types.

 

I think that is the goal. There is some talk that Ford will use a Macpherson strut front end on the next mustang. I hope that is not going to happen because the double wishbone suspension is out there on the other DEW98 chassised cars. It wouldn't be like Ford would need to spend money on design, just use carry over parts.

I don't think anyone now says: "I'm in the market for an M3, let me check out that new Cobra while I'm at it." (or vice versa) I may be wrong. $hit, you could have two Cobras for the price of one M3, but that BMW is sooooo damn sweet. Sorry for taking it off topic again. Must be my A.D.D. kicking in... (bad joke sorry)

 

Yeah, I think the Mustang is a bang for the buck deal. And the Cobra is for the guys that have a few more $ to spend.

Ford had the motor / tranny / suspension to make a world class car to compete in the $35-$40K class. Something in a less exotic GT40 type deal. And not another Thunderbird

 

again...i beat a V8 mustang...if this is too much for you guys to comprehend, or if your machismo won't let you hear that and not cringe...that's cool...i don't care.

ALSO...the reason i have a maxima and not a 2 door is becuase I have a 5 month old son, and need a decent (non-redneck) car that i can use to take out clients and business associates in. again, two door would not fly for that either...

ALSO..an M5 isn't supposed to be a fast car either huh, cause it has four doors ???

 

JUST TO GET EVEN MORE OFF THE TOPIC...TODAY I SMOKED A RICED OUT SOLARA...IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE GOOFIEST CAR I'VE SEEN IN A LONG TIME...

I KNOW THAT SMOKING A SOLARA IS NOT THAT EXCITING...BUT WHEN IT'S RICED OUT AND THE DRIVER THINKS IT'S THE COOLEST THING SINCE CHROME FENDER TRIM....IT'S ENOUGH TO PUT A SMILE ON YOUR FACE...

(BUT NOT AS MUCH AS BEATING THE NEW MUSTANG)....

 

I think feeling good after eating rice is a common thing among true car enthusiasts. The best feeling I have ever had was killing a riced out Toyota Supra. I don't know how I did it, but from 0-75, I killed him enough to change lanes in front of him and tap the brakes. Of course he gave me the ricer flyby, but whatever. Guess his that 20lb fart can muffler tip, 117 stickers, and 6' tall wing didn't make his car faster...

 

TT or N/A?

 

It had a turbo whine to it, but I would totally expect to get my a$$ handed to me by a TT. Maybe they just need to get spooled up, which is why they always want to race from 90 to 150 or whatever.

 

I don't know man... check this out
http://www.suprastore.com/top2514miles.html

 

Download this video if you like. In the video theres a 4th Gen Maxima beating a Toyota Supra (defenitely N/A because it ran a 14.48 I believe)
It's at the 2:24 mark just in case you don't feel like watching the rest.
Maxima beats Supra in the 1/4

 

I am not saying TT Supras aren't fast. Actually I am now if that list is the top 25 fastest ones, since there are more than 25 Mustangs in the 8's & 9's, with a few in the 6's and 7's.

I am not claiming this car was a TT, though it had the Turbo whine to it. This thing was the Uncle Bens of rice.com: even bigger than normal wing, quarter panals covered in stickers, and the ubiquitous fart can muffler.

 

Did the Supra look like those? Or was it older? The MKIV, 93-99 runs the 1/4 in the mid 13s. Less than 2k in mods and your well into the 12s. They make N/A versions too but those are dogs.

 

The Bullitt was supposed to make more power than the GT in the mid range. Here are some #'s for you and a little of my logic. It has been A LONG time since college SAE and my engine classes, but allow me some room to work:

I have a dyno raw # sheet in front of me from a Bullitt and some inferred (which will be a little off, maybe 1 -2hp) 99+ GT #'s and the same for an '02 SE. Here is the chart:

2500RPM GT 125, Bullitt 124.0 SE 100
3000rpm GT 145, Bullitt 144.7 SE 124
3500rpm GT 180, Bullitt 178.2 SE 140
4000rpm GT 212, Bullitt 209.3 SE 160
4500rpm GT 225, Bullitt 229.5 SE 182
5000rpm GT 233, Bullitt 236.7 SE 198
5500rpm GT 225, Bullitt 228.8 SE 198
6000rpm GT 215, Bullitt --- SE 190
6500rpm GT ---, Bullitt --- SE 180

From physics, it is all about area under the curve to find out how much work the engine can do. I used the old average the two closest data points and multiply by the rpm separation to find the area under each 500rpm section, then added all of the #'s up.

GT: 695000
SE: 666000

So even with 500 more RPM, the V6 can't match the 4.6L's work potential, so then for the SE to have a chance, it will be the lbs/hp ratio.

Dividing the curb weight (from MSN's car point) by the engine's output:

GT convert: 3429 / engine power under curve = 202.7
GT Coupe: 3317 / engine power under curve = 209.5
SE 6spd: 3274 / engine power under curve = 203.4

This is a super basic explanation that doesn't take into consideration driver skill, gearing, and launch technique. I can tell you with all the certainty in the world that there are A LOT of stock GT's in the 13's with no aftermarket parts added to them. You factor sticky tires, which both cars can easily get, and some very cheap mods like K&N and intake silencer removal, and the GT will be in the mid 13's.

In the end, if you catch a GT with more people in it than your car, or some dude in a convertible, and you can drive. You have an even chance to win. Everything equal though the GT coupe should win every time.

Above 100 when aerodynamics come into play, it may be a different story. Mustangs were never intended to go that fast (over 120). $hit if your Maxima can go 156mph, you will eventually catch and pass a stock 03 Cobra since it is speed limited to 155. But this part of the discussion boarders on the absurd since only a fool would drive that fast on a road, and there are precious few road courses that have that kind of speed.