VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

-I am just curious to find out who else here have the SFC's (subframe connector) installed on your 5th gen Maxima? If any of you do, please
indicate the benefit of each stages or if it's worth the investment???

-I've many inquiries, in the past and now, from the members within this forum in regards this mod and just want to find out the number of members who currently have it on their car.

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

well, what's your thoughts of it. do you think it was beneficial...do you feel a difference....etc.....

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

A definate YES! I had several threads about this topic before in the past years but apparently not many of the members acknowledge this mod as a "must have". As for recommendation: for ride comfort, just do w/stage 1. The stage 2 & 3 will further enhance the rigidity of the chassis but are not really necessary if you don't plan on racing your vehicle. Thus I had some challenges w/the installation of the two stages, 2 & 3.

Again, I posted this thread because there had been recent inquiries in regards this topic and I don't understand why people haven't jump on this mod??? And, PLEASE do not tell me that weight of the SFC's is an issue! It is negligible consider the performance gains you will have. Also, clearance for those who'd lower their cars should not be an issue (except maybe for Teins springs). My suspension had been lower w/H&R springs and since the SFC's installation, there has not been any scrapping.

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

you've got me interested...but could you explain more....what exactly does it do. just make the ride stiffer? is it noticed in the twisties?
what about sharp 90degree turns into a corner, etc....

i think i may have an issue, since i'm on coilovers and i'm pretty much close to the lowest height (about 1 finger tuck all around)

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

It doesn't make the ride stiffer but actually smoother. Have you ever driven in a European cars lately like the Audi A4 or Passat? The ride will be similiar, tight/rattle-free when encountered bumps/road imperfection. The solidity of the structure will improved the handling, from the bracings of the SFC's, which allow the suspension to do its work...that is, when you hit the bump, the "stiffen" structure will not flex. This allows the suspension, springs/shocks, to absorbed the vibrations/impacts more effectively.

I noticed my car to be more smoother and flatter when doing high speed manuvering/cornering. I have not try the fast 90-degree turns into a corner...but I am sure the car will feel more neutral. With your setup of coilovers, I think you will probably have issue w/ground clearance.

If you do some researches, you will find that most convertibles or sport cars have similar bracings from underneath the body. The more rigid the chassis, the better the ride and handlings will be since you can tune the suspension to be more stiffer for better performances with less of the harsh/bumpy ride. A Honda S2000 is a good example of what I've tried to describe.

Nobody else in this forum have the subframe connector installed?

Lumbee1

No, not yet but you certainly got me interested. What was the price and who did you get them through? How difficult was the install? Does it affect the jack points of the car? Is there any negative feedback? How long have you had them?


Sorry so many questions.

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

Check out the website @ http://www.Warpspeedperformance.com
They're the only company that made the SFC's for the Maxima. No, it won't effect the jack point of the car...there are pictures in the website.
As for installation, stage 1 requires welding...which is fairly easy process. Just printout the instruction information from the website and any decent exhaust shop can do the task. The cost should be no more than $60. I had some challenges w/the stage 2 & 3 due to the location of the stock b-pipe and its resonator. The technician had to do some modifications for proper fitting. I highly recommend that you would call Dave, from Warpspeedperformance if you are serious about this mod. He's very helpful but may be hard to reach.

I have the SFC's for more than a year now and happy w/the performance results so far. I've driven stock Maxima numerous times (my cousin has a GLE) for comparison and was amazed by the difference in ride quality between the two setup. I would encourage you all to look into this mod if you want similar results.

FYI: I am not affiliate w/Warpspeedperformance whatsoever!

Tony Fernandes

VMaximus02,

Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of SFCs until a few months ago but since then I've been hearing all sorts of things. Can you please compare the performance/handling/ride quality aspects of this mod to other mods? In other words, was it as noticeable as an RSB? More noticeable than a FSTB? etc...

Also, I wonder what warranty issues Nissan would dishonor due to SFCs being intalled on the car? I can't think of any, but thought I'd throw that out there.

Tony

soundmike

iTrader: (24)

What i'm wondering is, with the SFC installed - how does that affect the crumple zones and force/impact distribution on the car?

Tony Fernandes

Torsional rigidity is a major concern of car manufacturers. I've noticed countless times when a car company "revamps" a particular model, they usually tout "we've stiffened the torsional rigidity by 30%" and so on and so forth.

A good example of this that I've seen is the 3rd to 4th generation Preludes. Honda really stiffened the chasis starting with the 1997 Lude compared to earlier models. It made a HUGE difference in handling.

It would be interesting if Warpspeed could assign a percent-number to this particular mod for our Maximas.

Tony

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

It's very noticeable w/the SFC's installed. There is a sense that the car is heavier, but actually it's not. Since the bracings create a more solid body/structure, all the vibrations and impacts are absorbed by the suspension and not scattered/flexed throughout the structure. Therefore, it's more composed and predictable. The best word to describe the performance is "composure". The car seems to quickly retain its composure/balance after an emergency/spirited manuver. Also, the steering feels tighter and more communicative.

The SFC's will probably not affect the crumple zone. If you look the location of the SFC's, it's all underneath the body structure. The only drawback I see is the clearance issue for those who lower their car too low.

soundmike

iTrader: (24)

I was just wondering about the crush-zones, since when i was rear-ended - the impact went all the way to the middle of the car, damaging mostly the passenger side frame. With X-Bracing in place, wouldn't that transmit more of the impact over to the other side?

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

that makes sense. i guess we could answer that the same way one would answer if a car was hit in the front, would the FSTB cause damage to follow through tot he other side by connecting them together.

on another note, would you be be ble to tell us the thickness of these SFC's and also, how many inches is the lowest point of the SFC to the cat. it seems that my cat is the lowest point in my car, i can barely fit my fist under it. gives me about 3-4" of ground clearance.

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

When you stated "middle of the car" what exactly do you mean? Were the suspension components also crushed/bent during this process? I think the X-bracing is too low to have any adverse impact in regards to the designated crush-zone area (the front & rear sections of the car). If any, the extra bracings will probably reduce the vibration/shock transmitted from the impact. My understanding of the crush-zone design is that it allows for CERTAIN parts of the structure to collapse, therefore absorbing the impact to reduce/dissipate shock energy to the passenger. The SFC's is below the suspension. I can't visualize how this mod can change the crush-zone design?

Polo,
I can't answer you correctly unless I jack up the car and do some measurements. I think your questions regarding to the thickness/clearance of the SFC's will probably be best answer by the manufacture. Call and ask for Dave at Warpspeed. He seems very knowledgeable with the Maxima issues.

PoLo

iTrader: (7)

what soundmike is staying is this. this is a bad example, but bear with me. say you have 2 rocks. if i push one, it moves. other stays still. now connect those 2 rocks with a pipe. now push one rock, both move. what soundmike is saying is that if you got into an accident with these, are you more likely to cause damage, or bend, the other side of hte car simply by having the sfc force presure on say, the lower frame of the other side of the car.

in turn, you can also say that if the sfc were that strong, an impact would simply shift the whole car, since it technically is attached to the frame, and not cause damage to a particular spot.

as far as thickness, i wasn't really looking for a direct anwer. more of rough figure. like is it as thick as your wrist, as thick as a fstb, thinner, thicker. that's all.

soundmike

iTrader: (24)

Polo got it right.

When i got hit, it was a direct-impact from the back - but due to the zones on the car only the passenger side suffered the most damage. The car that hit me plowed under the rear btw.

Now if the zone on the passenger was connected to the driver-side zone - technically the zones are unified and that force of impact might be transmitted that way, causing damage to an area that would have otherwise been spared.

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

I see your point. The main purpose of the crumple zone is to increase the amount of time it takes the car to stop therefore reduces the acceleration of a moving object. Below is a very interesting article about this topic:
http://www.ukcar.com/features/tech/s...protection.htm
Let me know what you think about it.

Well as for the thickness of the SFC's...the stage 1 has 2-tubular bars about as thick as my wrist. But I probably have a smaller wrist than yours
Have you visited their website? <just curious>

JMF

VMaximus02,
I just got my SFCs in the mail last week. I believe it took about a month to get them from Warpspeed. I'm still looking for a descent shop with the proper lift to do the install. Hopefully I'll find one this week.

I feel your frustration on why nobody else is doing this. I harped on many people [for not having SFCs] when I was in the musclecar game. My first impression of my Maxima is "what a flimsy chassis!"

I'm looking forward to having them installed and I'll post my opinion on this application [Maxima].

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

Congrats on finally receiving the product from Warpspeed! Keep us posted w/your experiences and impression after installation. BTW, which stages of SFC's did you ordered?

JMF

I'm starting with the first stage. I don't want to deal with the clearance issues that you had. Like we talked about earlier, they may have changed the kit since then, but I want to see how the first stage mounts up before I add on the additional bracing.

I keep you posted...

Justin

Tony Fernandes

Right on! Good luck!

Tony

2k2nyc

Just ordered my Stage 1 today, thanks to this thread.

Lumbee1

Any updates?

GroceryGetter

I am not speaking from 5th gen Maxima experience but I can tell you from a 3rd gen Camaro experience that this is by far the best suspension mod that can be done to uni-body frames. I am not trying to make fun of anyone but it is interesting to see that people have not heard of SFC but I guess with my Camaro being from 89 they have more parts out.

Now onto the Maxima talk, do these actually tuck under the body or do they hang out under the car? (are they visible just by looking at the side?) Are there any cross braces that you can buy to connect the left and right sides?



This for the Camaro but you can see how it ties the left to the right under the driveshaft. It makes an amazing difference when cornering. Also what material are they made of? I am kind of looking for Chromemoly personally to keep the weight as low as possible.

2k2nyc

I'm not 100% sure, but from the pictures I've seen I think that stage 1 comes flush with the bottom of the car and stages 2&3 stick out lower. Stage 2 does the cross-bracing.

GroceryGetter

That would be sweet if it does. I am going to have to start looking now.

JMF

Okay, I just had mine installed last week. I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll post more details later.

First,
It was difficult to find a shop in my area to do the install. Muffler and body shops wouldn't touch it. I found a Mustang shop (True Blue Performance) to do the installation. They jacked the car up, removed the wheels, placed tall jackstands under the suspension, and lowered the car on the jackstands. This is VERY important that you find a shop to support the car correctly. More on that later.

Also, I took the time to strip the original finish off the subframes and applied some underbody coating. More on that later.

The difference is substantial. This is my fourth car that I've installed subframe connectors. The Maxima needs it. I'll be more specific on the handling later, but for now, I'll just say the body doesn't "shutter" when you go over some rough bumps. I am able to corner substantially faster than before. Not because of grip, but a stiffer chassis instills more confidence to the driver. More on handling and balance later.

I wouldn't recommend buying anything past stage 1 from Warpspeed. I talked with the installer, and he has some great fabrication ideas that will be superior to Warpspeed's stage 2 & 3. But more on that later.

Bottom line: I have only the strut tower brace and rear anti-sway bar on my Maxima. However, the subframe connectors made a more dramatic improvement than BOTH the STB and RSB together.

I'll write more later in the week when I have time.

Tony Fernandes

Holy shizat!! I'm thinking this has to ABSOLUTELY be my next mod. Please update us on all the "more on that later" stuff!! Thanks!

Tony

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

Congrats on successfully installed the stage 1 SFC's. It is best to have a shop that can lift up the whole car rather than supporting the car by jackstands especially w/the stage 1 installation. But if it is done correctly, it should be fine. Do update us w/how you're planning to further fabricate w/the stage 1 SFC's. Good luck!

Next step, some aftermarket springs/struts.

Dave B

Hold on, are you saying the car was only supported by 4 jacks as they did the work? To install SFCs, you need to be using a 4-post lift (ie the kind where the car drives on to). Supporting the car at four points on jack stands is a big no-no because the chassis is bending in a direction it normally doesn't when it's on the ground. If you weld on the SFCs while the car is bending the wrong way, you'll end up keeping the chassis is the incorrect position. Do your car's doors close okay? Warpspeed says to never install the SFCs unless you can put the car on a 4-post drive on lift.

Dave

Dave B

The SFCs use 1" cold rolled steel that span the length on the unibody frame rails and ultimately weld near the trailing arm mount. Stage I will reduce ground clearance by about 1" below the passenger door. Stage II/III does not change ground clearance because it sits at the same height as Stage I.

I have Stange I/II on my 96 SE and my SFCs are one of my favorite mods. The car feels far more substainial and rides a lot better. Handling overall has improved and much of the rocking of the rear beam over bumpy turns has been dialed out because the suspension is able to do more of the work.


Dave

2k2nyc

Dave, did you install both stages together or separately. If separate, what difference did you feel with the second stage?

JMF

I think you misunderstood me. The car was raised by a chassis lift, the tires were removed, and jackstands were placed under the suspension points. The car was then lowered down on the jackstands. The car is supported by four jackstands on the suspension. Up front, jackstands support the car from the outboard end of the suspension arms (balljoints). Out back, jackstands support the car on the the rear axle. This way, the car's suspension is loaded as though it is sitting on the ground.

Trust me, I know about welding on subframe connectors when the suspension isn't loaded. This happened to one of my Mustangs, and I wouldn't allow it to happen again. My Maxima's SFCs were installed properly by keeping the suspension loaded as though it sat on the ground. This technique is just as good as a drive on lift. And yes, all my doors open and close correctly.

JMF

I said that I would post more details, so here it goes:

If you want SFC from Warpspeed, don't expect to get them quickly. Not many people have them, so I'll bet that they keep close to zero stock on hand. They probably make them after you order. It took me about a month to get mine. I wasn't in a hurry, but I'm sure some people are more anxious than me.

The finish from Warpspeed is lousy. I saw on their website that they may offer powdercoating in the future. I would definately pay extra for this if it is available. Anyhow, the finish is poor, and the were shipped in wrapped plastic, so they were pretty scraped up when they arrived. I took a wire wheel on a high-speed drill and made short work of their finish. I applied 3M spray-on undercoating.

I didn't buy Warpspeeds stage 2/3 because it looked like a cheap erector set (and I was worried about exhaust clearance issues). After the subframes were welded into place I got some feedback from the installer. He explained how he could custom fabricate an x-brace and cross braces and tie them into the existing cross braces (under exhaust). Clearance with exhaust would be guaranteed, the bracing would be more effective; however, the price would be quite high, as opposed to the minimal Stage 2/3 prices from Warpspeed. I guess you get what you pay for. I would like to go stiffer, but my wife is still ****ed about the $20k I dropped into my last Camaro (she recently added up the reciepts).

I haven't driven the car since the day it was installed (almost a week ago) but I'll provide my initial impressions. Like I said before, the chassis is much tighter when traveling over rough bumps. The overall ride quality is slightly harsher, since the chassis does not "give" as much now. (stock GLE springs/dampers) I am much more confident with taking corners aggressively. Lets not kid ourselves here, the Maxima is no sportscar, so I won't be taking it to the limits too often, but the car now feels more athletic than a stock Maxima SE while maintaing a better ride quality. (total mods: FSB, RSW, SFCs)

I'll post more information on the handling once I get to take the car on a "fun" drive.

-Justin

Dave B

Okay, I understand now. I've never heard of a shop doing that, but it's no different than using a 4-post lift.


Dave

Dave B

The SFCs aren't finished at all. They're just plain steel. A little sand paper and some underbody spray is all it takes. I'll never understand why people want their SFCs powdercoated.

Stage 2 makes a big difference. More than I ever thought. I had the Stage I for a year and then picked up the Stage II from a local owner selling his Maxima. Stage II is quite noticable.

Ride quality shouldn't be harsher with the SFCs. When you increase torsional rigidity, harshness goes down because the suspension is able to do more of the work instead of the body. My car rides far better than it did prior to the SFCs. The improvement in ride quality alone is worth the money I've spent on the SFCs.


Dave

JMF

My SFC came from Warpspeed finished in some cheap black automotive enamel. The wire wheel made short work of it. I would rather ANYTHING underbody come powdercoated so I don't have to screw around with applying undercoating. Most high quality suspension/chassis components are available powdercoated (or zinc chromate), so these shouldn't be any different.

I would imagine the Stage 2 would make quite a difference. I've had an x-brace on one of my Camaros, so I know the effectiveness, but that erector set from Warpspeed could be improved on quite a bit. I imagine it is sold that way for shipping purposes. The ultimate solution would be a custom fabbed x-brace, then you surely won't have to worry about exhaust clearance and the effectiveness would be surely better. BTW, I had one fabbed for my '98 Camaro, and it came out really nice.

This is my fourth car with SFCs. In a stock, softly sprung car with a very flimsy chassis like the Maxima GLE (or my convertible Mustang GT), SFCs make the ride slightly harsher. I've experienced this first hand myself. However, on two of my other cars with stiffer springs and dampers, SFCs slightly improved the ride.

I'll try to explain this: Every bump in the road is absorbed by BOTH the suspension actuation AND chassis deflection. If the chassis is very flexible, the bump is absorbed by BOTH the chassis and the suspension. When the chassis is made stiffer (by adding bracing), the car's overall bump absorbtion will be less compliant.

Now, concerning a car with a flexible chassis and a stiff suspension (Dave, this obviously includes your SE), the chassis is absorbing more than it's share bump compliance. When the chassis is made stiffer, the suspension will be forced to handle the bumps. (since chassis flex won't absorb the energy) In this case, ride quality can be maintained, or even improved. I actually experienced improved ride quality with tons of bracing on one of my Camaros.

All said and done, if you add SFC to a stock suspended 5th Gen GLE, the ride will be slightly harsher (but I like it much better). It looks like ride quality is improved on the SEs (as per Dave's replies). I would also expect better ride quality on any Maxima with aftermarket springs/dampers. I hope this helps.

Justin

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

The OEM's shocks (GXE/GLE) are not a good set up for the stiff-chassis. I believe that the shocks were designed to compensate for the "soft" sprung springs of the GXE/GLE. I found that after installing the aftermarket springs/shocks, the ride and handling were much better. On smooth road, the car is very stable and just glide nicely. But, on rough/broken pavement, you can feel all the bumps on the road, since the whole chassis is basically tied together from the bracings. I like it 'cause it makes the car very predictable and communicative.

Dave B

I don't have a stock suspension so I wouldn't know. I'll take your word on it.

Dave

JMF

I agree with VMaximus that the stock shocks are wrong, but I think they are way too soft, with the exception of high speed compression dampening. (high speed compression dampening is too high, low speed compression dampening is too low, but rebound is TOTALLY wrong)

I want to get more time behind the wheel before I comment too much on the handling characteristics, but I'll throw this in. Much attention was brought to the shocks after I installed the SFCs. The car felt extremely underdampened. I don't mind soft springs in this car, but the suspension needs more control from the shocks. More later.

Justin