Stillen Headers Dyno Results
10-11-2003, 10:53 AM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
ha for real! if u dont want the headers then dont buy em. u cant conclude that the headers actually lower ur power bc this is 1 dyno. just chill out and wait for more numbers. i had a power loss problem before the headers. no telling what his car could be doing.
seems like everyone on this board is always out to make stillen look bad when they are one of the main aftermarket supporters of the maxima. so what if stillen costs more money. stillen has pushed many mods for the max and made a bunch of maxima owners happy.
will
seems like everyone on this board is always out to make stillen look bad when they are one of the main aftermarket supporters of the maxima. so what if stillen costs more money. stillen has pushed many mods for the max and made a bunch of maxima owners happy.
will
10-11-2003, 04:10 PM
#42
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
In my attempts to accurately review and re-create my thoughts and observances, it appears that a line of communication was foiled. So I shall try again.
The vehicle was last run in a tuned manner with all current mods, short of the headers. When the headers were installed, the WSP Y pipe had to be removed, as Stillen provides a new Y pipe. Once the headers were installed, the car was moved about 600 feet from the install bay over to the dyno rack. The car was then strapped in to the dyno.
Now... since some of you do not own WSP Y pipes, let me explain a little about the tuning process. WSP made their Y pipe. In making the Y pipe, they moved the Rear O2 Bank 2 Sensor from the rear Y to the front Y. The 2002-2003 Maximas have 4 total O2 sensors. 2 are before the pre-cats, and 2 are after. WSP moved the "after" O2 sensor on the rear bank to the "after" section of the front bank. While you would naturally want to have the O2 remain in the rear pipe, it is not possible for WSP (or anyone at this point) to do this, as the bending machines that are capable of doing such a thing are few and far between, not to mention expensive. The reason that the pipe cannot hold the sensor is simple, the rear bank isn't long enough to have the sensor mounted in the correct location. If the sensor is not within 1/16 of an inch from the original location, a SES light will be thrown. So WSP opted to move the sensor to the front bank, at the exact distance from the pre-cat, in order to avoid the SES light.
Now... when the WSP Y pipe was installed on my car, I dyno'd the car while away on a trip. The dyno results showed that I was running a 11:1 air/fuel mixture, which for NA is extremely rich. I opted to purchase the Greddy E-Manage and install it while on the trip. I tuned the E-Manage to help adjust the car back to the normal operating ranges of 13:1 to 14.5:1, except at idle.
So... assuming that the E-Manage was only needed because of the WSP Y pipe, I decided to clear all the tuned settings in the E-Manage when I installed the headers. Clearing the settings in the E-Manage makes for no adjustments... basically as if it were not installed. During the header install, the Stillen O2 simulators were installed and the actual O2 sensors were relocated back into their original positions and original banks (when compared to stock). I then dyno'd the car, only to find the car was running rich at idle. To be sure that the car's ECU wasn't holding on to my old settings, I performed the ECU reset procedure not once, but twice.
Then I dyno'd the car again, and this time I found that the ECU was holding some adjustments, but was very small. The idle air/fuel mixture went from 14.0:1 to 14.5:1 after the ECU reset. For idling (and being N/A), this is still to rich. I had lost over 10 HP and 25 ft/lbs of torque at this point. You can't use this as a comparison though, because I was fully tuned before the install.
So... now I assumed that the engine and ECU were not tuned, I proceeded to tune the car using the E-Manage. That's where all the runs from #17 to #26 went. On run #27, I made a small adjustment from run #26 that seemed to recover my top-end HP (6000+ RPMs). For proof, I overadjusted run #28 to see if it would give worse results at top-end. I was correct. So I returned the car back to #27's settings and ran a second run, which was run #29. I achieved the same results, while runs #27 and #29 being my best overall runs. I had tuned all I could tune in each range to achieve optimum numbers.
I then printed out the results that you see on my web-site. Run #13 and #14 were my "optimum pre-install tuned runs" and runs #27 and #29 were "optimum post-install tuned runs".
Since I have a very hard time believing that the remove of 2 pre-cats and the installation of headers would cause a loss, I have coughed it up to something else, but don't know what.
Today I went and bought a new fuel filter. I have almost 39,000 miles on the car. I shouldn't need one, but for the $10 it costs, it's worth it to try. I also checked all my plugs and gapping. They are all in good condition and are all within specs. I only run premium fuel at 93 octane, and use only Mobil 1 synthetic oil. I had a tranny fluid change at 30,000 miles and switched to Redline MT-90. I also had the entire cooling system flushed (both the engine and the radiatior) at 30,000 miles. I have no electrical or mechanical problems with the car, nor any leaks or visible issues that aren't paint related. While the car was in the dyno shop, I plugged up their OBD-II real-time scanner to the car to try to diagnose a sensor/mis-fire/timing/etc issue. All the O2 sensors were reading correctly. The timing was still at +17° BTDC. No misfires. Nothing was out-of-range for the car's normal operating specifications.
So... if you can tell me why I lost power on my car, please do. I will be continuing to investigate what the source of the loss is. There have been no problems with the car in the last 2 months or so before the install. The car even runs well after the install (with no SES light on). But still... I've lost power to the wheels. I admit that I don't know why I have lost power. I cannot say that it's because of the Stillen headers, but that's the only thing that has changed since my last dyno.
I have scheduled an appointment with a local dealer to have a petro-chemical cleaning performed on the car. E55AMG2 had a similar "loss of power" issue with his car a while back. He went and got the cleaning, and it restored almost 30 HP that had been lost. I am hoping that dirty pistons, cylinders, fuel injectors, etc are the cause of the loss of power, but I can only be skeptical, as I didn't have this problem before the install.
I would like to see what Will puts down before I go any further with this. I've plopped down over $1200 in a setup for my car that has shown me a 1 HP loss. If the cleaning helps resolve this, then I will gladly delete this thread, my dynos, and all related information and re-post the true dyno results.
But until then... this is where I am. I wrote all of this to help you guys understand that I am at a loss (pardon the pun) as to why this turned out this way. The only thing that I can do is to make all other things consistent. That is what I am doing now.... I am checking out the car and it's components for possible wear, damage, etc. and am replacing them as needed or recommended.
DaveB: Call me on Monday. I want you to send me new plugs anyway.
The vehicle was last run in a tuned manner with all current mods, short of the headers. When the headers were installed, the WSP Y pipe had to be removed, as Stillen provides a new Y pipe. Once the headers were installed, the car was moved about 600 feet from the install bay over to the dyno rack. The car was then strapped in to the dyno.
Now... since some of you do not own WSP Y pipes, let me explain a little about the tuning process. WSP made their Y pipe. In making the Y pipe, they moved the Rear O2 Bank 2 Sensor from the rear Y to the front Y. The 2002-2003 Maximas have 4 total O2 sensors. 2 are before the pre-cats, and 2 are after. WSP moved the "after" O2 sensor on the rear bank to the "after" section of the front bank. While you would naturally want to have the O2 remain in the rear pipe, it is not possible for WSP (or anyone at this point) to do this, as the bending machines that are capable of doing such a thing are few and far between, not to mention expensive. The reason that the pipe cannot hold the sensor is simple, the rear bank isn't long enough to have the sensor mounted in the correct location. If the sensor is not within 1/16 of an inch from the original location, a SES light will be thrown. So WSP opted to move the sensor to the front bank, at the exact distance from the pre-cat, in order to avoid the SES light.
Now... when the WSP Y pipe was installed on my car, I dyno'd the car while away on a trip. The dyno results showed that I was running a 11:1 air/fuel mixture, which for NA is extremely rich. I opted to purchase the Greddy E-Manage and install it while on the trip. I tuned the E-Manage to help adjust the car back to the normal operating ranges of 13:1 to 14.5:1, except at idle.
So... assuming that the E-Manage was only needed because of the WSP Y pipe, I decided to clear all the tuned settings in the E-Manage when I installed the headers. Clearing the settings in the E-Manage makes for no adjustments... basically as if it were not installed. During the header install, the Stillen O2 simulators were installed and the actual O2 sensors were relocated back into their original positions and original banks (when compared to stock). I then dyno'd the car, only to find the car was running rich at idle. To be sure that the car's ECU wasn't holding on to my old settings, I performed the ECU reset procedure not once, but twice.
Then I dyno'd the car again, and this time I found that the ECU was holding some adjustments, but was very small. The idle air/fuel mixture went from 14.0:1 to 14.5:1 after the ECU reset. For idling (and being N/A), this is still to rich. I had lost over 10 HP and 25 ft/lbs of torque at this point. You can't use this as a comparison though, because I was fully tuned before the install.
So... now I assumed that the engine and ECU were not tuned, I proceeded to tune the car using the E-Manage. That's where all the runs from #17 to #26 went. On run #27, I made a small adjustment from run #26 that seemed to recover my top-end HP (6000+ RPMs). For proof, I overadjusted run #28 to see if it would give worse results at top-end. I was correct. So I returned the car back to #27's settings and ran a second run, which was run #29. I achieved the same results, while runs #27 and #29 being my best overall runs. I had tuned all I could tune in each range to achieve optimum numbers.
I then printed out the results that you see on my web-site. Run #13 and #14 were my "optimum pre-install tuned runs" and runs #27 and #29 were "optimum post-install tuned runs".
Since I have a very hard time believing that the remove of 2 pre-cats and the installation of headers would cause a loss, I have coughed it up to something else, but don't know what.
Today I went and bought a new fuel filter. I have almost 39,000 miles on the car. I shouldn't need one, but for the $10 it costs, it's worth it to try. I also checked all my plugs and gapping. They are all in good condition and are all within specs. I only run premium fuel at 93 octane, and use only Mobil 1 synthetic oil. I had a tranny fluid change at 30,000 miles and switched to Redline MT-90. I also had the entire cooling system flushed (both the engine and the radiatior) at 30,000 miles. I have no electrical or mechanical problems with the car, nor any leaks or visible issues that aren't paint related. While the car was in the dyno shop, I plugged up their OBD-II real-time scanner to the car to try to diagnose a sensor/mis-fire/timing/etc issue. All the O2 sensors were reading correctly. The timing was still at +17° BTDC. No misfires. Nothing was out-of-range for the car's normal operating specifications.
So... if you can tell me why I lost power on my car, please do. I will be continuing to investigate what the source of the loss is. There have been no problems with the car in the last 2 months or so before the install. The car even runs well after the install (with no SES light on). But still... I've lost power to the wheels. I admit that I don't know why I have lost power. I cannot say that it's because of the Stillen headers, but that's the only thing that has changed since my last dyno.
I have scheduled an appointment with a local dealer to have a petro-chemical cleaning performed on the car. E55AMG2 had a similar "loss of power" issue with his car a while back. He went and got the cleaning, and it restored almost 30 HP that had been lost. I am hoping that dirty pistons, cylinders, fuel injectors, etc are the cause of the loss of power, but I can only be skeptical, as I didn't have this problem before the install.
I would like to see what Will puts down before I go any further with this. I've plopped down over $1200 in a setup for my car that has shown me a 1 HP loss. If the cleaning helps resolve this, then I will gladly delete this thread, my dynos, and all related information and re-post the true dyno results.
But until then... this is where I am. I wrote all of this to help you guys understand that I am at a loss (pardon the pun) as to why this turned out this way. The only thing that I can do is to make all other things consistent. That is what I am doing now.... I am checking out the car and it's components for possible wear, damage, etc. and am replacing them as needed or recommended.
DaveB: Call me on Monday. I want you to send me new plugs anyway.
10-11-2003, 04:26 PM
#43
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally Posted by maximaman777
Thank you for your insight, you have really contributed to this thread and gone against what Studman asked in his 1st post. If you have any thing else that you would like to share please feel free to continue to contribute your wonderfully enlightening thoughts. 
"Please... slamming Stillen right now isn't gonna help this thread or the .org, but I can understand your (and my) hesisitation to persue this further. I will keep everyone updated as my pursuit to find out why this happens continues"
I didn't "slam" Stillen. I merely pointed out the headers aren't doing what their suppose to and Studman did a very good job in eliminating dyno bias which is something many people on Maxima.org don't factor in when testing. I also agreed with what mztmg that said about backpressure being a myth. Seems to me you're the one who's contributing poorly to this post.
Dave
10-11-2003, 05:46 PM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 630
Studman, thanks for the timely clarification and attention to detail. I cannot help but feel alittle anger at your financial losses, even though I do not know you and will probably never meet you. I do however, know what it feels like to lose $1000+ in expectations implied from a person or business.
Maybe Maximaman77 can order a set of these and test them on his vehicle. Perhaps there will be enough variation in production tolerances where he will gain the power advertised on the Stillen website
Maybe Maximaman77 can order a set of these and test them on his vehicle. Perhaps there will be enough variation in production tolerances where he will gain the power advertised on the Stillen website
10-11-2003, 05:51 PM
#45
Originally Posted by Dave B
What's your deal? Gone against what? This is what Studman said,
"Please... slamming Stillen right now isn't gonna help this thread or the .org, but I can understand your (and my) hesisitation to persue this further. I will keep everyone updated as my pursuit to find out why this happens continues"
I didn't "slam" Stillen. I merely pointed out the headers aren't doing what their suppose to and Studman did a very good job in eliminating dyno bias which is something many people on Maxima.org don't factor in when testing. I also agreed with what mztmg that said about backpressure being a myth. Seems to me you're the one who's contributing poorly to this post.
Dave
"Please... slamming Stillen right now isn't gonna help this thread or the .org, but I can understand your (and my) hesisitation to persue this further. I will keep everyone updated as my pursuit to find out why this happens continues"
I didn't "slam" Stillen. I merely pointed out the headers aren't doing what their suppose to and Studman did a very good job in eliminating dyno bias which is something many people on Maxima.org don't factor in when testing. I also agreed with what mztmg that said about backpressure being a myth. Seems to me you're the one who's contributing poorly to this post.
Dave
You are just giving an educated assesment. I have never seen a V8 with headers lose power on a dyno, NEVER !
10-11-2003, 06:08 PM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,807
I believe I have an explaination. Now if I'm correct you dynoed the headers right after the install the same day? I believe you have to allow sometime for the ECU to adjust. I seen the samething happen nearly 2 years ago with a WSP ypipe installed on a 3rd gen during a dyno day. What he did was pull up and made a baseline pull of 130whp/140wtq, then he installed the y pipe and ran again. His car lost about 10whp all over the power band. After we saw the results everyone was like WTH just happened, we figured WSP ypipes made more power but not today.
However over the next week the car did start to gain power. Later on he dynoed the car and instead of showing the 10whp loss he gained like 5whp/10wtq over his before ypipe install base line. Its pretty much known now that WSP do make more power than the stock ypipe.
Another thing I was wondering was how does the ignition timing curve at WOT look? Also how much timing did you have to add/remove to get the best torque? Does the emanage allow you to see the max airflow from the MAF? If so is the engine flowing more air after the headers install? I'm willing to bet that maybe 2-3 weeks from now the car will get stronger and the dyno should show the gains then.
However over the next week the car did start to gain power. Later on he dynoed the car and instead of showing the 10whp loss he gained like 5whp/10wtq over his before ypipe install base line. Its pretty much known now that WSP do make more power than the stock ypipe.
Another thing I was wondering was how does the ignition timing curve at WOT look? Also how much timing did you have to add/remove to get the best torque? Does the emanage allow you to see the max airflow from the MAF? If so is the engine flowing more air after the headers install? I'm willing to bet that maybe 2-3 weeks from now the car will get stronger and the dyno should show the gains then.
Originally Posted by studman
But until then... this is where I am. I wrote all of this to help you guys understand that I am at a loss (pardon the pun) as to why this turned out this way. The only thing that I can do is to make all other things consistent. That is what I am doing now.... I am checking out the car and it's components for possible wear, damage, etc.
DaveB: Call me on Monday. I want you to send me new plugs anyway.
DaveB: Call me on Monday. I want you to send me new plugs anyway.
10-11-2003, 08:00 PM
#47
287 from the Z!!! Same engine 
Originally Posted by JayMax00
It seems to me that from the results on gains from aftermarket parts on the 2k2=2k3's is that nissan did all the work for you from the factory and trying to make the car faster from simple boltons doesn't work that well. I don't know maybe I'm wrong. But sorry to here that about those headers.
10-11-2003, 08:37 PM
#48
I feel like a idiot for asking this since I don't know if it's possible but I do have a vague memory of reading about a similiar problem and the cause.
Here goes.
Is it possible the noise/vibration of the headers is triggering the knock sensor and causing the timing to be pulled back?
Be gentle on me.
Here goes.
Is it possible the noise/vibration of the headers is triggering the knock sensor and causing the timing to be pulled back?
Be gentle on me.
10-11-2003, 11:32 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 221
Originally Posted by WILLSE
guys before we jump down stillens throat saying there things dont do **** let me get my dyno and compare the results.. dont want a negative view on the headers with only 1 dyno sheet. if mine proves to be abnormally low as well then we will definately get to the bottom of this!
will
will
yikes! i ordered my cattman headers last friday for my 3.0, i really hope the same thing doesnt happen. Will when you get youres dynoed make a new thread so everyone knows whats up
10-12-2003, 07:03 AM
#50
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by Dave B
What's your deal? Gone against what? This is what Studman said,
"Please... slamming Stillen right now isn't gonna help this thread or the .org, but I can understand your (and my) hesisitation to persue this further. I will keep everyone updated as my pursuit to find out why this happens continues"
I didn't "slam" Stillen. I merely pointed out the headers aren't doing what their suppose to and Studman did a very good job in eliminating dyno bias which is something many people on Maxima.org don't factor in when testing. I also agreed with what mztmg that said about backpressure being a myth. Seems to me you're the one who's contributing poorly to this post.
Dave
"Please... slamming Stillen right now isn't gonna help this thread or the .org, but I can understand your (and my) hesisitation to persue this further. I will keep everyone updated as my pursuit to find out why this happens continues"
I didn't "slam" Stillen. I merely pointed out the headers aren't doing what their suppose to and Studman did a very good job in eliminating dyno bias which is something many people on Maxima.org don't factor in when testing. I also agreed with what mztmg that said about backpressure being a myth. Seems to me you're the one who's contributing poorly to this post.
Dave
This morning I'm feeling much better but I still have the same thoughts. We have 1 person’s data from an install done the same day as the dyno's. Studman has been very thorough with his data compiling. Though there is one thing that would have been cool to see and that is if he would have done a pull or 2 right when he got to the shop prior to the header in stall. This may have helped removed any variables that may have changed since his last pulls in July. Things like differences in gas blends and so on.
What I do know is in this post alone we have 3 people showing losses after the secondary opens up in the intake, Will has said he is feeling a loss at the 5k mark and on (with 50k+ miles on his car, before and after the headers), Studman is showing a loss in the same rpm range (with 39K on his car we don't know about before the headers) and E55AMG2 having had the same problem that appears to have been corrected after having a "petro-chemical cleaning" done to his car (don't know his mileage though)
All of this leads me to the conclusion that our intake manifold setup may be highly prone to deposit build up. These deposits may hinder the ability of the secondary from fully opening and possibly the same problem the TB. So the questions I have for you Dave is does the '04 Max & 3.5 Alty have the same intake manifold that the '02&03 Max has? Or has Nissan possibly figured out something and changed the design of the '04s? Also the secondary is vacuum assisted, could there be a problem there?
I am going to talk to Will about getting his system cleaned before Tuesday’s dyno's.
While I don't have the cash to get a set of headers right now, nor would I get them without more info, what we can do is see what kind of numbers Will gets on Tuesday. If there not good we can go to my buddies shop and do a swap with my car then go back and dyno again. Since Will and I live close to each other and have access to a shop at no cost to do the swaps we can get 3 cars dyno'd in a short period of time and see where the problem lies. It may very well be with the headers and Stillen didn't get it right, but with all the time they took getting these to market I would have thought they would have done their homework. Even if the gain isn't as good as we would like I don't think they'd release the things with out showing something.
Studman you should call them and see what they have to say and not wait till you get more work done to your car. Explain your situation send them your data and ask for help.
One way or another we'll have more data this week from which we can come to a more informed conclusion on the product.
10-12-2003, 07:25 AM
#51
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by DonGfun
287 from the Z!!! Same engine
10-12-2003, 06:40 PM
#52
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally Posted by DonGfun
287 from the Z!!! Same engine
10-12-2003, 07:42 PM
#54
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by DonGfun
same 3.5
I'm sure steVTEC and some of the others could elaborate more, but they're is more difference between them than just tuning.
10-12-2003, 08:16 PM
#55
I don't care if 40 people dyno and get the same results. Til I put them on and see the results for myself, i'll reserve judgement. If an that point the results are the same, I am sure Stillen will A: take the headers back and fix them or B: Give us our money back. No big deal...why does everyone have to freak out about this?
10-12-2003, 09:05 PM
#57
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally Posted by 03BlkSETE
Here goes.
Is it possible the noise/vibration of the headers is triggering the knock sensor and causing the timing to be pulled back?
Be gentle on me.
Is it possible the noise/vibration of the headers is triggering the knock sensor and causing the timing to be pulled back?
Be gentle on me.
Dave
10-12-2003, 11:36 PM
#58
ya the Nissan Performance Mag Altima gained significant power with the hotshot headers, so it doesnt make any sense that the Stillen headers would lose power. Very confused - its gotta be a fluke that you lost power after installing the headers. Maybe that chip comin out will help the ECU adjust for the reduced back pressure
10-13-2003, 12:46 AM
#60
03BlkSETE, excellent thinking, however I don't believe this is the cause for the 'loss'. The reason is normally when the knock sensor is faulty, the Dyno will be very jumpy/spikey. Then again it does seem like run 27 is alittle bit 'rougher' than run 13, but still, the KS is resistant to viberations like that.
I think it would be good idea to see if it takes a week or so for the ECU to adjust, but I was also thinking that you could try putting the stock manifolds and WSP or stock y-pipe back on and dyno, then put the O2 simms on the stock setup and dyno, then swap over to the stillen headers and dyno. That could just give you some more good information.
Goodluck!
(btw, studman, could you take some pictures of the e-manage and the interface, I'm interested to see what the interface looks like.)
I think it would be good idea to see if it takes a week or so for the ECU to adjust, but I was also thinking that you could try putting the stock manifolds and WSP or stock y-pipe back on and dyno, then put the O2 simms on the stock setup and dyno, then swap over to the stillen headers and dyno. That could just give you some more good information.
Goodluck!
(btw, studman, could you take some pictures of the e-manage and the interface, I'm interested to see what the interface looks like.)
10-13-2003, 05:30 AM
#61
The 5k RPM loss is because these cars naturally lean out at that spot when you start messing with the MAF placement. Simply installing a midpipe can cause this. The MAF readings on this vehicle are very sensitve to changes so most of you can acutally benefit from installing and tuning a SAFC or a Emanage.
10-13-2003, 05:33 AM
#62
Studman: You said you tuned with your Emanage but the A/F graphs on most of those runs show you have a lean spot that takes you over 15.0:1. Judging from the comparison on the last dyno sheet it shows that your engine performs the best at about 14.0:1 or less and 13.5:1 is probably recommended.
10-13-2003, 07:38 AM
#63
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
Studman: You said you tuned with your Emanage but the A/F graphs on most of those runs show you have a lean spot that takes you over 15.0:1. Judging from the comparison on the last dyno sheet it shows that your engine performs the best at about 14.0:1 or less and 13.5:1 is probably recommended.
That is how the car was tuned to "peak" HP/TQ. Naturally, the numbers in the A/F chart are not considered normal curves, but if I just tuned the car to a straight 13.5:1 (or some other number), I would have lost considerably more HP/TQ at certain intervals.
All: I am sitting at the dealer right now waiting on my car to have the Petro-Chemical Cleaning (PCC) done. Once it is finished, I will continue to drive the car for the next few days. I am planning to re-dyno and re-tune the car again.
I have been getting horrible gas milage, but I can't cough it up to the headers. Horrible is defined as 50 miles per 1/4 tank (READ: 200 miles/tank). That's why I'll be re-tuning again. I am also waiting on the ECU to make all of it's adjustments to the new setup before I go tune again, just to eliminate the "ECU adjustment" excuse.
If when I re-tune I find that I still have no gains, I will be removing the headers from the car and returning back to my "crappy WSP Y pipe", as it would have provided better gains than the headers.
I also apologize for mis-stating that the "loss of backpressure" caused my loss. I was corrected for this and appreciate you guys keeping me in check (and up to date). I didn't know the correct "technical" term for what I was thinking, but you guys gave it to me. Thanks.
I have ordered new Nissan plugs and a new fuel filter. I will get those installed when they arrive, and dyno shortly after. I am still coughing up this whole loss to a "something is wrong with my car" issue, not the install itself. If after replacing the fuel filter and plugs, as well as the PCC, I still have a loss, then someone on the other end of the phone isn't gonna be too happy with me.
More to follow as things develop.
10-13-2003, 08:28 AM
#64
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Can someone elaborate on this petro-chemical clean?
Dave
Dave
10-13-2003, 08:46 AM
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,280
I thought resetting the ecu after mods was a big no-no? Maybe he just needs to drive it for a few days and let the ecu relearn how to manage it. I seem to remember reading a thread on this subject in the past...
A friend of mine with a WRX used to reset his ecu after each mod, and his car would run like crap for a few days while the ecu would learn.
Anyways - Thanks for all the info, Studman. Good luck!
A friend of mine with a WRX used to reset his ecu after each mod, and his car would run like crap for a few days while the ecu would learn.
Anyways - Thanks for all the info, Studman. Good luck!
10-13-2003, 08:57 AM
#66
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
Studman,
Is the shop you go to installing a wide band O2 sensor to get your A/F readings or are they using the stock sensors?
Is the shop you go to installing a wide band O2 sensor to get your A/F readings or are they using the stock sensors?
10-13-2003, 09:12 AM
#68
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by Dave B
Can someone elaborate on this petro-chemical clean?
Dave
Dave
Dave,
I believe the term "petro-chemical clean" is just what some Dealer/Shops are using to market an engine cleaning the involves hooking up the car to a system that not only cleans the fuel injection system onthe the car but also removes carbon deposits from the Intake manifold, valves, CC and pistons. No matter who makes it, it is still usuall applied the same. You can see the type of products here:
http://www.bgprod.com/bgprofessional.../autofuel.html
Hope this helps,
10-13-2003, 03:15 PM
#69
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
Is the shop you go to installing a wide band O2 sensor to get your A/F readings or are they using the stock sensors?
All: Here's an update. Today the car went in for the PCC. While the car was in the shop, I had them replace all the spark plugs. One plug was completely cracked and broke into multiple pieces upon removal. The plug that was directly to the opposite of the broken plug was worn down pretty badly. The other 4 plugs were in medium condition, but I had them all replaced anyway. The tech told me that the car had a "moderate" amount of carbon build-up in the throttle body (TB). The horrible gas milage has been attributed to the O2 sensor adjustments being made by the ECU after the install. I've gotten over 100 miles on the car since the reset, but have also burned over 1/2 of a tank in doing so.
Upon getting the car back, the car pulls much much harder now. I have contacted the dyno shop again to get the car back on the dyno. This time I will concentrate on correcting the air/fuel ratios under a normal load and normal driving conditions. Once those are corrected (to fix the gas milage problem), I will then have them change the dyno into "peak power" mode and re-tune the car again, using the normal driving numbers as my baseline. This procedure should take place this week.
Once I have the results, I will post those online along with the current ones to show the differences between them, if any.
I have not yet contacted Stillen, as I still believe this to be a "me-only" issue. If the future dynos still show a loss, I will then call Stillen.
More to follow in the next couple of days.
--- For those wanting to learn about the E-Manage, good luck... most of the sites are not in English, and almost all of them have copied the information about it directly from Greddy's web-site. Basically speaking, the E-Manage unit alone is capable of more things than just air/fuel adjustments. I only use the E-Manage to correct air/fuel ratios, but may upgrade to the fuel injector harness sometime in the future. Per Greddy support, do not use the ignition harness, as it causes the coils to burn up quickly.
Seperate from the E-Manage, you will also need the E-Manage software and a laptop with a serial port. If your laptop does not have a serial port, you can purchase a USB-to-Serial adapter from most computer stores for around $20-30. The E-Manage software is the meat and potatoes of the unit. To utilize 90+% of the E-Manage, the software is required.
The air/fuel mapping feature of the software allows you to adjust the unit on a 16x16 scale, which looks similar to an Microsoft Excel sheet. The rows are your throttle position, and the columns are your RPM ranges. You can modify the ranges and the throttle position colums/rows to match any range, and then you can set the adjustment for that range.
By default, the unit sets the throttle position in 6-7% increments, and the RPM ranges in 500 RPM increments. I have modified some of mine - 3500 was changed to 3700 and 4000 was changed to 4200. Then you can adjust your air/fuel ratio by +/-50% in each section. This allows for a total of 256 adjustments total (i.e. You can have the car programmed for a 30% reduction through all ranges until you reach 50% of throttle position. But once you surpass 50% throttle, you can have it set to 20% reduction). This is a basic introduction to the system, but as you can see, there are endless opportunities to tune your car to "peak" performance based upon almost every situation.
I have a "city-driving" setting, as well as a "race-driving" setting, both of which are stored in the same chart. When I go over 60% throttle, the race settings kick in, giving me more fuel in certain ranges (like the VIAS opening), while reducing fuel in other ranges (like in the top end for more HP).
Hopefully this can somewhat sum up the E-Manage and it's flexibility.
If this confuses you, open up Excel. Down the first column, list numbers at 0-100, in 8% increments (i.e. 0, 8, 16, 32, etc). Across the top row, list the RPM ranges from 0-8000 in 500 RPM increments (0, 500, 1000, 1500, etc). Now, as you wish, fill in the adjustments (in %) that you wish to make for that range and throttle position. Note that you can also change the increments on both the throttle row and RPM columns.
Enjoy.
10-13-2003, 03:33 PM
#70
nice review. sorry to hear you are having issues. hopefully she's all better now.
you're taking a big one for the org.
good luck.
ps....I may see you next saturday, I am the one who wanted a ride, too feel suspension setup.
you're taking a big one for the org.
good luck.
ps....I may see you next saturday, I am the one who wanted a ride, too feel suspension setup.
10-13-2003, 04:11 PM
#72
I don't buy that. I'm not sure if the 3rd gen. is different though.
On the 5th gens., at WOT you're running open-loop, which the ECU does NOT "learn" anything over time, ie they are set from the FACTORY. Only during closed-loop does the ECU need time to learn, however the "short-term" fuel trim will compensate as needed and over time the "long-term" fuel trim will be set to accomodate the headers. Again, this is in closed-loop only operation with 02-sensor feedback.
Any mod that increases air flow through the engine would cause the A/F mixture to lean out on MOST cars' ECUs and this typically adds hp, since the factory map is setup rich. However, according to TechnoSquare on the 350z, the ECU is designed to go extremely rich as you increase air flow through the addition of mods. So, basically you can add an intake, which adds more air, yet the ECU compensation for MAF voltage increases is overly compensating with too much fuel. The map is still there and would normally lean out, but the compensation factor that's based on MAF values is too aggressive.
The eManage and wide-band O2 usage eliminates that as a possiblity though.
On the 5th gens., at WOT you're running open-loop, which the ECU does NOT "learn" anything over time, ie they are set from the FACTORY. Only during closed-loop does the ECU need time to learn, however the "short-term" fuel trim will compensate as needed and over time the "long-term" fuel trim will be set to accomodate the headers. Again, this is in closed-loop only operation with 02-sensor feedback.
Any mod that increases air flow through the engine would cause the A/F mixture to lean out on MOST cars' ECUs and this typically adds hp, since the factory map is setup rich. However, according to TechnoSquare on the 350z, the ECU is designed to go extremely rich as you increase air flow through the addition of mods. So, basically you can add an intake, which adds more air, yet the ECU compensation for MAF voltage increases is overly compensating with too much fuel. The map is still there and would normally lean out, but the compensation factor that's based on MAF values is too aggressive.
The eManage and wide-band O2 usage eliminates that as a possiblity though.
Originally Posted by Nismo87SE
I believe I have an explaination. Now if I'm correct you dynoed the headers right after the install the same day? I believe you have to allow sometime for the ECU to adjust. I seen the samething happen nearly 2 years ago with a WSP ypipe installed on a 3rd gen during a dyno day. What he did was pull up and made a baseline pull of 130whp/140wtq, then he installed the y pipe and ran again. His car lost about 10whp all over the power band. After we saw the results everyone was like WTH just happened, we figured WSP ypipes made more power but not today.
However over the next week the car did start to gain power. Later on he dynoed the car and instead of showing the 10whp loss he gained like 5whp/10wtq over his before ypipe install base line. Its pretty much known now that WSP do make more power than the stock ypipe.
Another thing I was wondering was how does the ignition timing curve at WOT look? Also how much timing did you have to add/remove to get the best torque? Does the emanage allow you to see the max airflow from the MAF? If so is the engine flowing more air after the headers install? I'm willing to bet that maybe 2-3 weeks from now the car will get stronger and the dyno should show the gains then.
However over the next week the car did start to gain power. Later on he dynoed the car and instead of showing the 10whp loss he gained like 5whp/10wtq over his before ypipe install base line. Its pretty much known now that WSP do make more power than the stock ypipe.
Another thing I was wondering was how does the ignition timing curve at WOT look? Also how much timing did you have to add/remove to get the best torque? Does the emanage allow you to see the max airflow from the MAF? If so is the engine flowing more air after the headers install? I'm willing to bet that maybe 2-3 weeks from now the car will get stronger and the dyno should show the gains then.
10-13-2003, 07:02 PM
#73
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
Well, after a much anticipated wait... I threw 4 SES codes tonight. 3 of which I have seen before, but the 4th one came as a surprise.
I threw a:
P0139 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Too Long To Respond)
P1147 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 1 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P1167 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 2 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P0300 (Multiple Mis-fire)
I am resetting the codes and seeing if they blow again. I was driving at a high rate of speed today on a local limited-access-divided-highway when I threw the SES light. The Stillen emulator device controls the rear O2 sensors, so I would naturally assume that the first 3 codes shouldn't have happened. I'll call them tomorrow to investigate.
I am almost sure that the O2 sensor warnings were due to colder temperatures on the sensors.
The 4th warning could've been a fluke from the PCC today, so I'll reset it and see if I can create it again. If the 4th code comes back again, I'll re-visit the dealer and let them fix it, since they replaced the plugs today.
I threw a:
P0139 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Too Long To Respond)
P1147 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 1 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P1167 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 2 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P0300 (Multiple Mis-fire)
I am resetting the codes and seeing if they blow again. I was driving at a high rate of speed today on a local limited-access-divided-highway when I threw the SES light. The Stillen emulator device controls the rear O2 sensors, so I would naturally assume that the first 3 codes shouldn't have happened. I'll call them tomorrow to investigate.
I am almost sure that the O2 sensor warnings were due to colder temperatures on the sensors.
The 4th warning could've been a fluke from the PCC today, so I'll reset it and see if I can create it again. If the 4th code comes back again, I'll re-visit the dealer and let them fix it, since they replaced the plugs today.
10-13-2003, 07:57 PM
#74
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by studman
Well, after a much anticipated wait... I threw 4 SES codes tonight. 3 of which I have seen before, but the 4th one came as a surprise.
I threw a:
P0139 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Too Long To Respond)
P1147 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 1 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P1167 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 2 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P0300 (Multiple Mis-fire)
I am resetting the codes and seeing if they blow again. I was driving at a high rate of speed today on a local limited-access-divided-highway when I threw the SES light. The Stillen emulator device controls the rear O2 sensors, so I would naturally assume that the first 3 codes shouldn't have happened. I'll call them tomorrow to investigate.
I am almost sure that the O2 sensor warnings were due to colder temperatures on the sensors.
The 4th warning could've been a fluke from the PCC today, so I'll reset it and see if I can create it again. If the 4th code comes back again, I'll re-visit the dealer and let them fix it, since they replaced the plugs today.
I threw a:
P0139 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Too Long To Respond)
P1147 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 1 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P1167 (Secondary O2 Sensor - Bank 2 - Voltage Not High Enough)
P0300 (Multiple Mis-fire)
I am resetting the codes and seeing if they blow again. I was driving at a high rate of speed today on a local limited-access-divided-highway when I threw the SES light. The Stillen emulator device controls the rear O2 sensors, so I would naturally assume that the first 3 codes shouldn't have happened. I'll call them tomorrow to investigate.
I am almost sure that the O2 sensor warnings were due to colder temperatures on the sensors.
The 4th warning could've been a fluke from the PCC today, so I'll reset it and see if I can create it again. If the 4th code comes back again, I'll re-visit the dealer and let them fix it, since they replaced the plugs today.
10-14-2003, 04:20 AM
#75
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
When the SES light came on did it start as a flashing light or did it just come on and stay on?
10-14-2003, 06:42 AM
#76
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by studman
It just came on and stayed on.
Check the injector on the cylinder that had the heavily damaged plug. Hopefully the cleaning cleared any crap on it but it wouldn't hurt to make sure it's working properly. That could also be the cause of 1 or 2 of the codes.
10-14-2003, 09:07 AM
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,807
No doubt the ECU has presets from the factory, but it also has a correction alpha % that is defined only after driving. I do have a OBD-II logger so I'm able to view the short/long term fuel % trim along with the ignition timing. Once the ecu is reset basically the long term fuel trim resets to 100% (full rich) then as the car is driven the ecu adjusts this figure to within -2 to +2% of its preset values. While the ecu might not be going directly off the o2 sensor in open loop. It still uses closed loop A/F ratio alpha to correct its presets in open loop. Minewhile the short term fuel trim % varies alot more often in the -6 to +6% range. After the ecu is reset it basically notes how much the short term fuel trim varies from its preset values and compensates the fuel trim to bring it back to within 2%+/-.
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
I don't buy that. I'm not sure if the 3rd gen. is different though.
On the 5th gens., at WOT you're running open-loop, which the ECU does NOT "learn" anything over time, ie they are set from the FACTORY. Only during closed-loop does the ECU need time to learn, however the "short-term" fuel trim will compensate as needed and over time the "long-term" fuel trim will be set to accomodate the headers. Again, this is in closed-loop only operation with 02-sensor feedback.
Any mod that increases air flow through the engine would cause the A/F mixture to lean out on MOST cars' ECUs and this typically adds hp, since the factory map is setup rich. However, according to TechnoSquare on the 350z, the ECU is designed to go extremely rich as you increase air flow through the addition of mods. So, basically you can add an intake, which adds more air, yet the ECU compensation for MAF voltage increases is overly compensating with too much fuel. The map is still there and would normally lean out, but the compensation factor that's based on MAF values is too aggressive.
The eManage and wide-band O2 usage eliminates that as a possiblity though.
On the 5th gens., at WOT you're running open-loop, which the ECU does NOT "learn" anything over time, ie they are set from the FACTORY. Only during closed-loop does the ECU need time to learn, however the "short-term" fuel trim will compensate as needed and over time the "long-term" fuel trim will be set to accomodate the headers. Again, this is in closed-loop only operation with 02-sensor feedback.
Any mod that increases air flow through the engine would cause the A/F mixture to lean out on MOST cars' ECUs and this typically adds hp, since the factory map is setup rich. However, according to TechnoSquare on the 350z, the ECU is designed to go extremely rich as you increase air flow through the addition of mods. So, basically you can add an intake, which adds more air, yet the ECU compensation for MAF voltage increases is overly compensating with too much fuel. The map is still there and would normally lean out, but the compensation factor that's based on MAF values is too aggressive.
The eManage and wide-band O2 usage eliminates that as a possiblity though.
10-14-2003, 12:10 PM
#78
Originally Posted by Nismo87SE
No doubt the ECU has presets from the factory, but it also has a correction alpha % that is defined only after driving. I do have a OBD-II logger so I'm able to view the short/long term fuel % trim along with the ignition timing. Once the ecu is reset basically the long term fuel trim resets to 100% (full rich) then as the car is driven the ecu adjusts this figure to within -2 to +2% of its preset values.
While the ecu might not be going directly off the o2 sensor in open loop. It still uses closed loop A/F ratio alpha to correct its presets in open loop. Minewhile the short term fuel trim % varies alot more often in the -6 to +6% range. After the ecu is reset it basically notes how much the short term fuel trim varies from its preset values and compensates the fuel trim to bring it back to within 2%+/-.
10-14-2003, 01:08 PM
#79
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
IceY2K1: What ODB-II software are you using?
All: Anyone know of a good Wide-Band O2 Sensor to use? I'm looking into getting one so I don't have to run to the dyno after every install. Also, what software/hardware (if any) does the sensor require? I'd love to find one that works with the E-Manage and/or a software ODB-II program.
All: Anyone know of a good Wide-Band O2 Sensor to use? I'm looking into getting one so I don't have to run to the dyno after every install. Also, what software/hardware (if any) does the sensor require? I'd love to find one that works with the E-Manage and/or a software ODB-II program.
10-14-2003, 01:34 PM
#80
http://www.obd-2.com/ It's not perfect, but seems to get the job done.
No definitive answers, but check this thread for some links on wide-band 02s:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=254036
No definitive answers, but check this thread for some links on wide-band 02s:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=254036
Originally Posted by studman
IceY2K1: What ODB-II software are you using?
All: Anyone know of a good Wide-Band O2 Sensor to use? I'm looking into getting one so I don't have to run to the dyno after every install. Also, what software/hardware (if any) does the sensor require? I'd love to find one that works with the E-Manage and/or a software ODB-II program.
All: Anyone know of a good Wide-Band O2 Sensor to use? I'm looking into getting one so I don't have to run to the dyno after every install. Also, what software/hardware (if any) does the sensor require? I'd love to find one that works with the E-Manage and/or a software ODB-II program.