Stillen 3.5L Header dyno #'s
11-08-2003, 06:21 PM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
one more thing..... i will be more than happy to put the headers on Adams car and PROVE to stillen they yeild no gains in HP. quicksilver and maximaman777 get in contact with me so we can figure out the best time for everyone to do the swap. i will be very tempted to put my stock headers back on though. anyone want some headers? LOL
will
will
11-08-2003, 08:06 PM
#43
Sorry about that! Anyways, IF the dealer only replaced the MAF and didn't reflash the ECU then you've got problems. First, the FSM CLEARLY states anytime the MAF is replaced, you MUST perform the Idle Air Volume Learning Procedure. It's in the "How To's" sticky or Techtoms website.
PLEASE try the IAVL procedure NOW and see if it helps. Your ECU is out of wack, because the jack off dealer can't fuking read.
Good luck, but I doubt that's all you have going on here.
Originally Posted by WILLSE
ICE2k1 ur PMs r full
11-08-2003, 08:22 PM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 312
Sorry to hear about that man... 
11-08-2003, 09:39 PM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Sorry about that! Anyways, IF the dealer only replaced the MAF and didn't reflash the ECU then you've got problems. First, the FSM CLEARLY states anytime the MAF is replaced, you MUST perform the Idle Air Volume Learning Procedure. It's in the "How To's" sticky or Techtoms website.
PLEASE try the IAVL procedure NOW and see if it helps. Your ECU is out of wack, because the jack off dealer can't fuking read.
Good luck, but I doubt that's all you have going on here.
i already tried that a few times
i guess we have to see what the tech has to say. will
11-08-2003, 09:42 PM
#47
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Join Date: Jan 2001
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oh i forgot to mention i will be gettin the ECU reprograming done. i just so happend to run into a cool tech on the way out of nissan. he said he would be able to get the consult II and bring it home if i give him prior notice. might be somewhat usefull i think. he already agreed to advance the timing and do the ECU reprograming. im gonna have to take him up on that!!!
will
will
11-08-2003, 09:54 PM
#48
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by glen1685
some one dyno without the module thing maybe that will work?????
will
11-08-2003, 11:37 PM
#49
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
WillSE:
What is this "black box" and what does it tie into? I've never heard of this before. Also, your dyno is showing your car running really rich at high rpm? When does the car start running really rich? The dyno plots do kind of exhibit a rich condition above 4000rpms or so. I say this because of the way the power curves are shaped in comparison to other 3.5 VQ dynos. Of course the problem is it appears that the SAFC can't compensate enough to bring the A/F ratios to where they need to be. I wonder is Technosquare to figure out the issue and fix it?
Juice:
When you ran your best with headers, what were the conditions like compared to your best without headers? Was it the same track? I know that in dry 50 degree weather vs 70+degree weather, my car is ~1.5mph faster in the 1/8 mile and 2.5mph faster in the 1/4 mile.
glen1685:
I don't own a 5th gen Max, but it doesn't stop me from learning about them. The same goes for a ton of other guys I like and/or am interested in. Basic automotive principles apply to nearly every car, so I just use my experience and knowledge to offer insight. I'm no guru, but I'd like to think I know most of the basic stuff. I can come off pretty harsh and "all knowing" sometimes and I can see why people get ****ed.
Dave
What is this "black box" and what does it tie into? I've never heard of this before. Also, your dyno is showing your car running really rich at high rpm? When does the car start running really rich? The dyno plots do kind of exhibit a rich condition above 4000rpms or so. I say this because of the way the power curves are shaped in comparison to other 3.5 VQ dynos. Of course the problem is it appears that the SAFC can't compensate enough to bring the A/F ratios to where they need to be. I wonder is Technosquare to figure out the issue and fix it?
Juice:
When you ran your best with headers, what were the conditions like compared to your best without headers? Was it the same track? I know that in dry 50 degree weather vs 70+degree weather, my car is ~1.5mph faster in the 1/8 mile and 2.5mph faster in the 1/4 mile.
glen1685:
I don't own a 5th gen Max, but it doesn't stop me from learning about them. The same goes for a ton of other guys I like and/or am interested in. Basic automotive principles apply to nearly every car, so I just use my experience and knowledge to offer insight. I'm no guru, but I'd like to think I know most of the basic stuff. I can come off pretty harsh and "all knowing" sometimes and I can see why people get ****ed.
Dave
11-09-2003, 09:12 AM
#51
Originally Posted by Dave B
WillSE:
What is this "black box" and what does it tie into? I've never heard of this before. Also, your dyno is showing your car running really rich at high rpm? When does the car start running really rich? The dyno plots do kind of exhibit a rich condition above 4000rpms or so. I say this because of the way the power curves are shaped in comparison to other 3.5 VQ dynos. Of course the problem is it appears that the SAFC can't compensate enough to bring the A/F ratios to where they need to be. I wonder is Technosquare to figure out the issue and fix it?
Juice:
When you ran your best with headers, what were the conditions like compared to your best without headers? Was it the same track? I know that in dry 50 degree weather vs 70+degree weather, my car is ~1.5mph faster in the 1/8 mile and 2.5mph faster in the 1/4 mile.
glen1685:
I don't own a 5th gen Max, but it doesn't stop me from learning about them. The same goes for a ton of other guys I like and/or am interested in. Basic automotive principles apply to nearly every car, so I just use my experience and knowledge to offer insight. I'm no guru, but I'd like to think I know most of the basic stuff. I can come off pretty harsh and "all knowing" sometimes and I can see why people get ****ed.
Dave
What is this "black box" and what does it tie into? I've never heard of this before. Also, your dyno is showing your car running really rich at high rpm? When does the car start running really rich? The dyno plots do kind of exhibit a rich condition above 4000rpms or so. I say this because of the way the power curves are shaped in comparison to other 3.5 VQ dynos. Of course the problem is it appears that the SAFC can't compensate enough to bring the A/F ratios to where they need to be. I wonder is Technosquare to figure out the issue and fix it?
Juice:
When you ran your best with headers, what were the conditions like compared to your best without headers? Was it the same track? I know that in dry 50 degree weather vs 70+degree weather, my car is ~1.5mph faster in the 1/8 mile and 2.5mph faster in the 1/4 mile.
glen1685:
I don't own a 5th gen Max, but it doesn't stop me from learning about them. The same goes for a ton of other guys I like and/or am interested in. Basic automotive principles apply to nearly every car, so I just use my experience and knowledge to offer insight. I'm no guru, but I'd like to think I know most of the basic stuff. I can come off pretty harsh and "all knowing" sometimes and I can see why people get ****ed.
Dave
I can't wait until Monday at 1230 hours...
11-09-2003, 09:21 AM
#52
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 925
Originally Posted by Quicksilver
Dave, the black box can only be described as an O2 simulator/SES eliminator (due to bad readings by the O2 sensor) box. The fact that Stillen added this system just days before starting to ship them out means that they are totally full of **** on their dyno runs. Why you might ask? Well, if they knew about the SES light from the beginning, then they would have added this box long before 8-10 days before they started shipping hte production version out. That's the kind of last second kink that "should" normally add at least a months delay to the release of the product to the public. Something else kinda fishy...they added this box so late in the header design/testing phase, but they never had an SES light before that??? In my eyes, they are either covering up information, or they didn't dyno the thing as much and as long as they led everyone to believe. It could be a combination of both...
I can't wait until Monday at 1230 hours...
I can't wait until Monday at 1230 hours...
11-09-2003, 09:27 AM
#53
Originally Posted by 1BADMAX
I wonder what Hotshot did that Stillen didn't. That's the real question. I know their headers relocate the 2 rear O2 sensors behind the cat which is different. Either way something is different. I wonder if that would make a difference. I just wonder if the O2 sensor placement could make that big off a difference. I mean hell their headers are dynoing usually at least 19hp from the dynos I've seen on Altimas.net.
I'd like to see the headers side by side (in person) so I could check for any possible design deficiencies in the Stillen setup. It could be as simple as the design of the Y section...or it could be entirely bad overall.
11-09-2003, 10:28 AM
#54
Headers
Dave B- Same Track and the same temps 65 degrees.
Something I have not mentioned because it slipped my mind. Have all you guys who have dynoed installed the O2 sensor box that was included by stillen. This box was supposed to trick the O2 sensors or some crap. I never installed that and have not had a check engine light yet and it has been about 4 weeks. I do not know how that box truly works if anyone has insight as to whether this may affecting performance please advise.
Something I have not mentioned because it slipped my mind. Have all you guys who have dynoed installed the O2 sensor box that was included by stillen. This box was supposed to trick the O2 sensors or some crap. I never installed that and have not had a check engine light yet and it has been about 4 weeks. I do not know how that box truly works if anyone has insight as to whether this may affecting performance please advise.
11-09-2003, 11:02 AM
#55
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
I'd really like to see some obd2 scans while dyno'ing these. Do we know of someone in the area that has a laptop setup? Will said Dixit does...
If we can look at what the sensors are seeing we’ll most likely be able to figure this out.
To do the swap on my car we would have to do it during the week. My buddy doesn't open on Sat. any more. I can take a day off to do this. I'll talk to him on Mon. just to see if I can talk him into giving us a Sat. to do this we'll see... I’m up for this when ever you guys are I just need advance notice so I can take the time off work if needed. Also I’ll be going to FL for Thanksgiving, but I won’t be driving the Max down there. I’ve got miles to burn on my 1500’s lease.
These also can't stay on my car long, cause as soon as the dealers are ready I'm going in for the recall work and my car will be stock for that.
Given the fact that Will's car is one of the high mileage 02's out there is it possible that the crank or cam sensors are causing what seems to be an intermittent problem with his car? He said the car was running great after going to the dealer and he replaced his MAF plus the fixing of the gaskets in the secondary. But now the same lag is happening again at 4200.
I have a feeling that if the engine doesn't have the power dip and keeps climbing that the numbers will go up.
Also with the Alty's, they don't have the same IM that we do. What ever is happening is happening after the secondary open up. 400rpm after the upper opens the thing nose dives. I think this is the area we need to concentrate on, if we can duplicate this problem on my car we'll have some concrete info. What did 1BADMAX's plots look like? Was there the same dip? How many miles are on his car? The reason I ask is his would be only the second car to dyno without any fuel management.
Lastly I believe $tealin just applied the numbers they got off their Alty dyno's to our cars marketing with out testing it and now their stumped as to what could be the problem. They were hoping to save the time and just roll out the product. This makes the most sense to me.
If we can look at what the sensors are seeing we’ll most likely be able to figure this out.
To do the swap on my car we would have to do it during the week. My buddy doesn't open on Sat. any more. I can take a day off to do this. I'll talk to him on Mon. just to see if I can talk him into giving us a Sat. to do this we'll see... I’m up for this when ever you guys are I just need advance notice so I can take the time off work if needed. Also I’ll be going to FL for Thanksgiving, but I won’t be driving the Max down there. I’ve got miles to burn on my 1500’s lease.
These also can't stay on my car long, cause as soon as the dealers are ready I'm going in for the recall work and my car will be stock for that.
Given the fact that Will's car is one of the high mileage 02's out there is it possible that the crank or cam sensors are causing what seems to be an intermittent problem with his car? He said the car was running great after going to the dealer and he replaced his MAF plus the fixing of the gaskets in the secondary. But now the same lag is happening again at 4200.
I have a feeling that if the engine doesn't have the power dip and keeps climbing that the numbers will go up.
Also with the Alty's, they don't have the same IM that we do. What ever is happening is happening after the secondary open up. 400rpm after the upper opens the thing nose dives. I think this is the area we need to concentrate on, if we can duplicate this problem on my car we'll have some concrete info. What did 1BADMAX's plots look like? Was there the same dip? How many miles are on his car? The reason I ask is his would be only the second car to dyno without any fuel management.
Lastly I believe $tealin just applied the numbers they got off their Alty dyno's to our cars marketing with out testing it and now their stumped as to what could be the problem. They were hoping to save the time and just roll out the product. This makes the most sense to me.
11-09-2003, 02:18 PM
#56
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Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Quicksilver
I'd like to see the headers side by side (in person) so I could check for any possible design deficiencies in the Stillen setup. It could be as simple as the design of the Y section...or it could be entirely bad overall.
http://www.activetuning.com/pat/3/5/
11-09-2003, 08:12 PM
#57
Rear 02s are NOT used at WOT, at least on most/my car. Plus, if the rear 02s were not working/simulated properly, you'd get a cat failure code or 02 code, but it *SHOULDN'T* affect performance.
However, I'm still skeptical about "02-simulators", so they could damn well be the problem ESPECIALLY now that Will and Quicky bring up the point that it was Stillens' quick fix to a SES light.
With your not installing the simulator and seeing gains....Will might try disconnecting the black box.
However, I'm still skeptical about "02-simulators", so they could damn well be the problem ESPECIALLY now that Will and Quicky bring up the point that it was Stillens' quick fix to a SES light.
With your not installing the simulator and seeing gains....Will might try disconnecting the black box.
Originally Posted by juice
Something I have not mentioned because it slipped my mind. Have all you guys who have dynoed installed the O2 sensor box that was included by stillen. This box was supposed to trick the O2 sensors or some crap. I never installed that and have not had a check engine light yet and it has been about 4 weeks. I do not know how that box truly works if anyone has insight as to whether this may affecting performance please advise.
11-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#58
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Rear 02s are NOT used at WOT, at least on most/my car. Plus, if the rear 02s were not working/simulated properly, you'd get a cat failure code or 02 code, but it *SHOULDN'T* affect performance.
However, I'm still skeptical about "02-simulators", so they could damn well be the problem ESPECIALLY now that Will and Quicky bring up the point that it was Stillens' quick fix to a SES light.
With your not installing the simulator and seeing gains....Will might try disconnecting the black box.
However, I'm still skeptical about "02-simulators", so they could damn well be the problem ESPECIALLY now that Will and Quicky bring up the point that it was Stillens' quick fix to a SES light.
With your not installing the simulator and seeing gains....Will might try disconnecting the black box.
you read my mind man. i disconnected the ground wire to the O2 sim box tonight and went for a quick ride. to be honest i swear the car feels faster. NO SES light. by disconnencting the ground does is break the circuit and make it quit working? just making sure that i disabled it. with the wires still spliced into the O2s does it still interupt or send signals? who here knows how the electrical stuff works.
i still would like some key points to drill stillen with. any suggestions will be appricated.
will
11-09-2003, 11:18 PM
#59
Wild at Hurt
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 580
Hot Shots, I have read, moved the 02 sensors to downstream of the main cat. Stillen evidentally has this black box to fool the ecu into thinking it is reading exhaust content after some sort of cat (pre). The Hot shots look a lot like the Stillen and they make 16 HP. Could be there is something to the location of the 02's.
Hot shots do not use a black box (that I have heard of), possibly because they dont need it with the correct sensor location.
Hot shots do not use a black box (that I have heard of), possibly because they dont need it with the correct sensor location.
11-09-2003, 11:22 PM
#60
Just as Alex said, these O2s are not performance related. They are cat sensing o2s. Thats all, even if you have one bad, it wont affect performance, it says it clearly in the FSM.
Not to mention in a closed loop mode even the front ones are not used at WOT. So you guys are clutching for straws but this one one of them.
Dixit
Not to mention in a closed loop mode even the front ones are not used at WOT. So you guys are clutching for straws but this one one of them.
Dixit
11-09-2003, 11:33 PM
#61
Wild at Hurt
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 580
WILLSE
Will give you the little that I know to partially answer your question. Some cars have 3 wires going to the 02 sensor. Ususally the 12v is stepped down to 5v at the ecu.
You have plus and minus going in (to power the sensor) and usually 5 down to near zero coming out depending on the 02 content.
Disconecting any wire would give it a zero volts out. This is either a signal that the ecu understands, or the ecu has a map built in, in case the ecu is not getting a sensors signal.
Will give you the little that I know to partially answer your question. Some cars have 3 wires going to the 02 sensor. Ususally the 12v is stepped down to 5v at the ecu.
You have plus and minus going in (to power the sensor) and usually 5 down to near zero coming out depending on the 02 content.
Disconecting any wire would give it a zero volts out. This is either a signal that the ecu understands, or the ecu has a map built in, in case the ecu is not getting a sensors signal.
11-09-2003, 11:35 PM
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by BigDogJonx
Just as Alex said, these O2s are not performance related. They are cat sensing o2s. Thats all, even if you have one bad, it wont affect performance, it says it clearly in the FSM.
Not to mention in a closed loop mode even the front ones are not used at WOT. So you guys are clutching for straws but this one one of them.
Dixit
Not to mention in a closed loop mode even the front ones are not used at WOT. So you guys are clutching for straws but this one one of them.
Dixit
will
11-09-2003, 11:42 PM
#63
Originally Posted by WILLSE
maybe its not O2 related? the signal being sent to the ECU could be crazy and the ECU responds by adding alot of fuel? all i am trying to do is explore any possible solution. does anyone know what signal is being sent by this box? manipulating the ECU to always get this certain signal "could" be a possible problem area. by disconnecting the box and seeing how the car likes/disklikes it is the only way for me to rule out the box being the problem.
will
will
Like I said, these are cat sensing o2s, they DO NOT AFFECT PERFORMANCE. The signal that is being sent by the box is a sine wave type signal similar to what it would read from behind behind a cat.
Again this is not the problem area. I think yall need to look somewhere else.
Dixit
11-09-2003, 11:48 PM
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 616
that sucks man.... he's making the same power as my 2k with a droppin filter.
I cuts it the header dont work...........
dam i wonder why the 3.5 VQ is not making more power and its breeding better. strange Very strange
I cuts it the header dont work...........
dam i wonder why the 3.5 VQ is not making more power and its breeding better. strange Very strange
11-09-2003, 11:51 PM
#65
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by Nyc2kMax
that sucks man.... he's making the same power as my 2k with a droppin filter.
I cuts it the header dont work...........
dam i wonder why the 3.5 VQ is not making more power and its breeding better. strange Very strange
I cuts it the header dont work...........
dam i wonder why the 3.5 VQ is not making more power and its breeding better. strange Very strange
???????????? u must be mistakin. ur 2k with a drop-in filter has 222hp +maybe 5hp which is 227hp at the CRANK not the wheels. what does the last line of ur post mean?
will
11-10-2003, 12:05 AM
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by Mick Max
Disconecting any wire would give it a zero volts out. This is either a signal that the ecu understands, or the ecu has a map built in, in case the ecu is not getting a sensors signal.
will
11-10-2003, 05:29 PM
#67
ok this is the deal. I disconnected the crap black box and the ses light did not come on. Then i reset my ecu it acutally reset. With the box it wouldnt rest. Also now the car seems faster. we will see im dynoing tomarrow.
11-10-2003, 05:56 PM
#68
Originally Posted by glen1685
ok this is the deal. I disconnected the crap black box and the ses light did not come on. Then i reset my ecu it acutally reset. With the box it wouldnt rest. Also now the car seems faster. we will see im dynoing tomarrow.
Cool man! Let us know what numbers you get ASAP! And list your mods in the post as well, just for total reference! Thanks Glen!
Justin
11-10-2003, 07:07 PM
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by glen1685
ok this is the deal. I disconnected the crap black box and the ses light did not come on. Then i reset my ecu it acutally reset. With the box it wouldnt rest. Also now the car seems faster. we will see im dynoing tomarrow.
U DA MAN
GLEN!!!!! im anticipating similar results which will put the gran total to 4 out of 27 headers sold having a proven loss in hp and tq. i hope u prove me wrong!will
11-12-2003, 08:25 AM
#70
Originally Posted by glen1685
ok this is the deal. I disconnected the crap black box and the ses light did not come on. Then i reset my ecu it acutally reset. With the box it wouldnt rest. Also now the car seems faster. we will see im dynoing tomarrow.
11-12-2003, 11:12 AM
#75
i had a a stock exhaust on when i got 208 when i had a greddy i got 199hp but after i switched them i connected the ground wire again for that black box and drove around so i dont know if the stock exhaust gave me more or the box being connected did it
199 hp with greddy
208 with stock hp
212 torque with greddy
222 with stock
but i connected the ground for the module after i switched exhaust
199 hp with greddy
208 with stock hp
212 torque with greddy
222 with stock
but i connected the ground for the module after i switched exhaust
11-12-2003, 11:18 AM
#76
Honestly, can't tell without dynos. Peak numbers don't mean much IMO, but those don't sound too good according to chi02max with catback/intake:http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=165347
OR
blubyu2k2 w/ypipe, bpipe, UDP, GAB, HKS rear section:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=255589
OR
blubyu2k2 w/ypipe, bpipe, UDP, GAB, HKS rear section:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=255589
11-12-2003, 11:20 AM
#77
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by glen1685
i had a a stock exhaust on when i got 208 when i had a greddy i got 199hp but after i switched them i connected the ground wire again for that black box and drove around so i dont know if the stock exhaust gave me more or the box being connected did it
199 hp with greddy
208 with stock hp
212 torque with greddy
222 with stock
but i connected the ground for the module after i switched exhaust
199 hp with greddy
208 with stock hp
212 torque with greddy
222 with stock
but i connected the ground for the module after i switched exhaust
Even with the stock exhaust 208 with headers and intake is pretty low.
11-12-2003, 12:41 PM
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by glen1685
but i connected the black box before i went back to stock after removing the greddy well what does a stock auto get
glen im rather confused man. can u please scan the actual dyno plot. what number did u get? ur wording confused me for some reason. thanks for all ur help man this is gettin more concrete if your numbers r 208hp 222tq w/headers. please do what u can to get the dyno scanned. i need this plot to strenghten our case against stillen. JUICE- any possible way u can arange a dyno? this black box thing it wierd and "should not" be the problem but very well could be. im going to go think about this since this is now the 4th dyno OUT OF 27 customers that have received the headers proving a loss of power or a lack there of, with no dynos proving otherwise.
will