Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

And no, you're not going to like what you see. Will's car is currently having problems with the hesitation between 2K-3K RPM, but these numbers show an even greater loss of both HP and TQ with the Stillen headers. He replaced his MAF sensor, and the place that he took it to get the TSB done told him they also flashed his ECU. They lied about the ECU flash, and the hesitation is back again in full force. Whether this affected his dyno I can not say. All I know is that there is a severe difference in his car right now from last Friday (when he got the new MAF)...









I just took pictures of the slip rather than scanning it (I happened to have my camera with me). For a little background info...

With aftermarket Y pipe, RT high flow cat, and a 2.5" aftermarket B pipe, and Franken intake, Will's car made a dyno run of 230 WHP and 236 WTQ.

After installing Stillen's headers (and removing the aftermarket Y pipe for obvious reasons, and keeping the rest of the exhaust/intake combo) his first dyno attempt netted him a maximum of 228 WHP and 228 WTQ.

Today's dyno (only thing changed is the new MAF from previous dyno)...well, you can see the results for yourself. The headers will not work with his car in it's current setup, despite Stillen telling him that he should see "more gains than what they had on their test car due to his superior exhaust". <-- That's a quote from one of Stillen's sales/tech reps.

Today I also listened in on another Stillen tech's excuse on why he now thinks that Will's car is losing power. Yes, he mentioned the word "backpressure", but this guy was as clueless as they come in the design and engineering department. He was most likely an install help tech, and not one of Stillen's design engineers (for the header project). He even tried to use his GNX and how he installed too large a downpipe as an example of how you "need" backpressure to run an engine... He's actually supporting Will and my argument without even realizing it. What spins a turbine blade? Pressure? You can put (theoretically) 1 million pounds of pressure on an given point on those turbine blades and they will not budge an inch. Now high energy/velocity gas flowing over and around those blades will cause them to spin, but not this magical "pressure" that so many people think exist. OK..back to the actual point...

Monday, Stillen's head research/dyno/design tech will be calling Will in an attempt to figure out what's going on.

In short, anyone who has this mod needs to get it dynoed. If you don't, you're selling yourself short. I am of the opinion that Stillen in no way actually got the numbers they claim on their test car, or if they did, they didn't test any exhaust setup other than stock one that comes from the factory. I know some of you guys who got the headers installed said it "felt faster", and one of you even ran better times at the track than ever before, but until you get it dynoed, it's only a butt dyno. Will's car even fooled me (although he does have significantly more power than my stock '03 GLE), so that's why I felt the vast difference in my trusty "a$$ dyno"...but it had been so long since I'd driven a 6 speed that I didn't have a fresh menory of what a stock one felt like.

OK, the moral of the story...

A$$ dynos and slightly better track runs over normal do not prove that the headers gain jack ****.

Stillen's tech department says conflicting things about how exhaust systems work (I.E. --- >putting high flow cats, B pipe, and a Y pipe are a good combo, but the stock exhaust setup with headers will flow better and give you more power)

K Pazzo 6

iTrader: (6)

wow thats disappointing

SeaFoam2DMax

doh!!! looks like my cattman Y is gonna go on and stay on, thanks for putting up Will's dyno results. We need the other fellas with the headers to dyno up.

02MaximizedVQ

Stillen is a waste of good real estate. I don't know if anything positive or constructive has EVER come from that name! We need a refund on the air their breathing over there.

limsandy

iTrader: (1)

My money will be spent towards a new set of wheels, instead.


~limsandy

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

ILL have to dyno my ride my car is running 100 percent

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear that Will and Quicky! Thanks for taking

I *HOPE* it's just a sick Max and they fuked up with the ECU flash. That's BS, since they make it practically idiot proof, however I've seen first hand they don't know how to use the Consult.

Did you get the runs on disk? If so, shoot them to me at IceY2K1@maxima.org.

Also, was this the SAME dyno that Will used before?

BigDogJonx

iTrader: (7)

Man resize those pics... Its bigger than my 1600x1200 screen.

Dixit

KiLLeR2002se

iTrader: (4)

nice for my 1900x1200

Sorry head about the poor dyno results, have you checked anywhere for leaks?

bigdo26

iTrader: (3)

cant believe the poor dyno results again. Sorry man, hope these issues get worked out or else i'm gonna hafta get the cattman y-pipe

Dave B

Quoting myself from Nov 5th:

"I'm just curious to see the excuses if these headers still don't make much useable power on the dyno. Will they still blame the rest of the car and try and find "other" problems."

How many more dynos is it going to take to prove that these things are junk? Even the guys that have posted better times with the headers showed absolutely no gain in trap speed. ET is traction, MPH is power. If your trap speed doesn't go up, you're not making more power. Period.


Dave

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

Youre right Dave. I have run approx 30 times down the 1/4 mile strip with my Max. I have run a wide range of times, and those have gone from 15.2 to as low as 14.6 ....but my traps were always 93-94 mph....

I smell an unbathed rat here... Lets see what happens. Im not ready to pay 800 bucks for this. I will be at the Stilen show here in so cali next weekend....lets see what they say .

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

ill just have to dyno my car. My cars running at 100 percent. I still belive the headers work because i can no longer pin it at 10 miles per hour without burning out. Before i had my headers on it never did this. Also once i catch traction with the headers on i can feel the car pulling more. I dunno though ill just have to dyno, because no ones gonna belive me anyways lol, and their truly hasnt been a postive dyno result. I reallly hope his car gets fix i know how it feels to have a sick car,back when i had my 1996 max.

02MaximaSE

wow, glen, hopefully your dyno pull is better. the numbers up top arent too good for the headers.
with my mods and automagic i have 208 fwhp and 229 torque.

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

Same dyno Icy...all 18 of his pulls have been done at Balanced Performance Motorsports (and a couple of those guys are ******, too )

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

I want Will to record the Stillen head tech when he calls Monday, but I have a sneaking feeling that they are going to blow him off...again. If they do, then it's only furthering Will's case (b/c of their refusal to resolve any potential problems).

Also, if those idiots "backpressure" theory was true, then why did they design/build/test headers in the first place? It's that area of exhaust that would effect the flow of gas the most...too many contradictory messages from them. But...as I said, these guys we were talking to could have been carpet cleaners for all we know...

I'd like to see Stillen dyno (and film) an aftermarket B pipe with their headers...just to see what happens.

MaximaMan77

Well we're only left with a few options here as to what the problem is.
1. He has almost 60K on his car with the original plugs.
2. Faulty ECU.
3. coils?
4. His exhaust is to free flowing. Not that it doesn't have enough backpressure,
but that with the headers the flow rate is to high.

I'm willing to put the headers on my car. We can use my friends shop at no cost. Then I'll pay to have my car dyno'd. Although it won't be an exact apples to apples compairision
unless we change out the whole exhaust (mine isn't as free flowing of a setup).
But it should help narrow down the problem. Worst case he'll know if the headers don't work and can get his money back.

MaximaMan77

I also would like to see some OBD2 scans during the pulls on his car...

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

Adam,

Stillen says that the headers were designed for a fully stock system. It could be that there's too much air flowing in Will's system or just not enough velocity due to piping size, or it could be plugs, or it could be the ECU freaking out (in which case, Stillen should have noted this and warned people)...the massive TQ/HP dropoff at 4.5K-5K RPM is gone, so I believe the power valve gasket fixed that...

Will is going to change his plugs as soon as he possibly can.

1BADMAX is currently getting his car dynoed as we speak at Balanced...so we'll see what happens there.

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

Adam,

I'm sure Will would be willing to do the header/manifold swap, but call and ask him first...

I don't know what kind of time it'll take to do all this ish...but I'm down to help (obviously )

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

good point maximaman777. He should change the sparkplugs and perhaps cleanout the fuel injectors/throttle body (using B&G cleaners) while he's at it. Undoubtly, this will help with a better dyno run. Sometime a faulty O2 sensor can dramatically effect the performance of the vehicle.

MaximaMan77

At best working on both cars at the same time we'd be looking at 6-8 hrs.
Also my car has 14k on it and is in good running order and hasn't been driven as hard as Will's

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

Everything but plugs were already done...so the only thing left is plugs. If it's not the plugs or ECU flash for the NTB03-023 TSB, then it's the headers. There are no leaks...fitment and all that is actually very good. The welds on the front bank look like ****, though (when viewing from the engine compartment)...I'll get pics of that as well.

MaximaMan77

He's already run BG 44K through his tank, but it wasn't done till recently and that isn't a Good cleaning... but he's running short on cash.

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

My cars got ***** with the headers i have to take my traction control off or the thing with shut donw my engine because it pulls so damn hard lol iw as wondering if i dont have anofe back pressure either but my car seems fast. How would it be with the franken car exhaust instead of my evo?

Y2K2Driver

iTrader: (1)

If they replaced the MAF but lied about the reflash, I'm pretty sure the ECU would throw a CEL. So either they did both or they didn't.

Dave B

From the sounds of it, the Stillen guys are either clueless or their just trying to make excuses. A good set of headers will take advantage of a well designed exhaust system. Will's system sounds pretty ideal with an overall 2.5" setup. "Backpressure makes power" is a huge myth. In a nutshell, you want the exhaust piping to keep exhaust velocity and keep the exhaust hot as it exits. If the piping is too small is creates backpressure and lower performance. If the piping is too big, the exhaust velocity slows, cools, and becomes turbulent in the pipes which ulimately kills most rpm power.

I would doubt Stillen even has a dyno for their headers. I bet they just slapped a set of pipes together and figured it should work. A good header design requires lots of tuning and tuned runner lengths. It's not something you can do blindly.

I feel sorry for all the guys that have bought these things because I think Stillen will just give them the run around.


Dave

juice

iTrader: (6)

Dave B - I am not arguing with your conclusions. However you state that unless trap speeds increase you are not gaining power. As I stated before before the headers I was running consistent 14.7's at 94.XX. With the headers I ran 14.3XX at 96.XX. Additionally, my 1/8 mile traps were at 77mph. Thats a 2mph increase. Now I do not know what that equates to powerwise but those are my results.

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

Unless you dyno, it's just a fluke. Maybe you were driving better...and the temps were definitely lower this time around vs. last time you ran IIRC. Just for arguments sake, get it dynoed. Whats $50-60 when you've just spent $900~ish for headers?

From now on, I don't want butt dynos or "feelings" of power posted in this thread. I want stone cold numbers only, along with technical analysis and design theory. This is my thread, and I want this info for scientific (and in the end, consumer) gains...

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

More bad news...

1BADMAX also had dissapointing results with the exact exhaust setup specified and required by Stillen (the one where they claim 19 WHP)...

Will went to Balanced Performance Motorsports to record on video the runs and get the printouts and such...

This is actually turning out worse that I thought...

92 SE-R 02 SE

can you tell us what his #'s were while we wait for the dyno to be posted>?

This is unreal. I really dont know what else to say. Im going to have to have to agree with dave, they just threw together some pipes and made up a #. I wonder when and if the HS headers will come out for us..

jerome johnson

iTrader: (2)

Just curiouse, what was the air fuel ratio? maybe the car ran lean and lost the power? I was reading the article on the Hotshot header on the 3.5 Altima project car at nissanperformancemag.com and it got 16+ whp increase. Similar header design as Stillens. What gives.

jerome johnson

iTrader: (2)

by the way it was October 2003 isssue

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

Juice your the man i totally agree. H*ll why is dave in here anyways hes got a 1996 maxima lol

juice

iTrader: (6)

Dave B voices his opinions because he is very knowledgable. He has many experiences and I beleive he is very fair in making judgements. However people are allowed to disagree, share experiences/impressions or voice their own opinions. I am merely sharing my impressions and experiences with you guys and answereing questions you may have. That is the point of a discussion forum .

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

His AF ratio never went higher (leaner) than 14.5~ish...

At higher RPM, it ran an incredibaly rich 12.x...

That to me denotes the Maxima ECU severely overcompensating...

Which leads me to believe that Stillen is totally lying about the numbers they got on their test car. 1BADMAX has the same exhaust that Stillen dynoed with, yet Stillen got 19 WHP? Without any kind of ECU change?
I don't see that happening...not with the three cars that have dynoed all either losing HP or not gaining enough to justify $900+ worth of expense...

1BADMAX was SEVERELY ****ed off, from what I gathered...

glen1685

iTrader: (1)

sorry Dave jsut protective of my car

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

If the headers do not make the power they claim, then you've effectively wasted $900~ish on hard earned cash. If a Y pipe, high flo cat, and 2.5" B pipe make more HP and TQ than the headers, why buy the headers?

92 SE-R 02 SE

i have a ypipe and intake...and after seeing the dynos of the $tillen headers...let just say that ME and im sure 100s of other .org boys will NEVER buy $tillen $hit again... hey $tillen if ur reading...

WILLSE

he was very dissapointed with the first 2 runs which showed 221hp 225tq. the 3rd run 227hp 231tq made him feel better. he has injen intake, UDP, stillen rear section and headers. i dynoed my car with frank intake, RT cat and HKS rear section ONLY and showed 230hp 234tq. with the addition of a 2.5" b pipe i got the most current number before the headers 228hp 236tq. lost 2hp gained 2 tq by adding a b-pipe. any way u look at it i had more power without the headers than 1BADMAX does with a UDP and headers.

the dyno ended up being at DYNOLAB a shop in marietta, ga. not balanced like i had told QUICKSILVER. the guy was very knowledgable but he wouldnt accept the fact that the ECU actually has the capability of overcompensating itself. he said the power could be gained with a SAFC. if this is true than y did studman only end up with a 1hp gain overall? the ECU seems to be confused.

*FYI*

2 weeks prior to the shipping of the headers i recieved a phone call on sat. YES i did say SATURDAY. he was letting me know that he just took a ride in the stillen 2k2 maxima with the headers and they were UNBELIEVABLE. i then said u know the CC # take the $$$. he agrees to do so and on mon the $$ was gone from my account. i get a call either later that week or early the next week. its my sales dude telling me that they have a prob with the SES light and have to figure out how to fix it. i said well u took out the cats, the 02s arent gettin the same readings. by the end of the week my money was back in the account. i called to figure out y my money was refunded and was told that the price of the headers orignally 850 would now be 900 bc the little black box had to be added to the order which counts for the 50 bucks.

-Back to the my point. if stillen had done all this R&D claimed how the hell could they have not had a SES light come on before then? i can conclude that stillen only had 8-10days TOPS to develop this 02 box. what does this 02 box actually tell the computer? what if the 02 box doenst send the ECU the correct signal? im no computer guy so i dont know if this is possible.

-hesitation TSB
my SES light has stayed off since the new MAF. i know for a FACT they didnt reprogram the ECU bc the service manager called me to ask for 50 bucks for the claim on the MAF. i told him i didnt have any money (i have already recieved my new MAF by this time). then i asked him if he was positive that they reprogramed the ECU and he said "oh actually we didnt". hahha this is gettin better and better.

-JUICE
please get some hard evidence. DYNOing is the only way to conclude. A$$ dynos, GTech runs, stop watches, etc. prove nothin. if in fact these headers dont yeild the claimed hp by stillen something has to be done. if in fact u did gain power PROVE IT.

-as quicksilver has said i will be talkin with the "tech that deisgned the headers" at 12:30pm eastern time. i was rather firm and said i get out of class at 12:15 i want a phone call at 12:16 he said 12:30 i will get a call from them. i said if 12:30 strikes and i havent heard from u, expect to hear from me.

can you guys think of some key points i need to key in on? the previous conversations with both the "tech" and my salesman have gotten me nowhere considering all they can say is i dont have backpressure. well now it has been found that even with "backpressure" they dont gain the amount of horsepower claimed

*******I HAVE A DYNO FROM STILLEN********

if this thread makes no sense im sry it has been an extremly long day.

i will be in and out tonight but will try to post if u guys have any questions.

DAVE B & ICE2k1 u have PMs

will