We are not comparing our headers to hotshot headers. We are interested in producing the best headers that we can manufacture. We are also interested in making sure that everyone sees we are able to produce the gains that we claim. Our goal is not to throw HotShot under the bus - but verify our gains to those who doubt them.

If you would like to run a comparison, that is completely up to you.

I can appreciate what you want to do. I hope you will understand.

Best regards,

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

Ohh its already been done and its a stickey check above, I just wanted you guys at Stillen to see your headers fell short of the gains available from better designed and ($400 cheaper) headers on the 3.5. No power was gained under the curve which your dyno showed and there is nothing left to prove. You gain 19whp for a quick little spike which doesn't impress anyone that is performance oriented. Max power should be used for advertising peak gains in which this case is 14whp a couple thousand rpms not some little spike just to make it sound better than it really is. Im not sure what you meant by throwing Hotshot on the bus but I will personally pay half of the Hotshot header cost to have them installed and dynoed on the same car at Stillen in from of the croud. If you believe you have the best header design available why not prove it?

 

Another beautiful thing about the free market in America is that misleading consumers and false advertising are illegal. I do live in SoCal, but I have no desire to let stillen work on my car. Ive dealt with stillen a few times on the phone and in person, and the experiences were unpleasant enough for me know not to mess around with stillen and its customer service again. Furthermore, given the customer service experiences of Will and others who bought stillen products, I know better than to buy from stillen.

I dont have stillen headers on my car. My car is, as my profile says, a 2000. I have developed an interest in headers since it has been discovered that the manifolds are the same for the vq30 and 35. I dont have any interest in a stillen y-pipe for my car. I already have a Budget exhaust y-pipe, test pipe, and b-pipe, all of which I purchased for less than the cost of just a Stillen y-pipe. Speaking of y-pipes, I think cattmans 2k2 y-pipe is good for about 8-10whp and wtq with gains all across the rpm band. I cant search for those dynos, but I would bet the area under the hp curve is about the same, if not better with the y-pipe than the stillen dyno. It would be interesting to compare them, if anybody has that link handy please pm me with if you have a chance (sorry I cant search).

So back to my questions:
1) Was the car automatic of manual?
2) Did you ever get around to running those in SAE?
3) Can you please post the other three dynos of the headers prototypes that led to this final, optimized design?! We have been told that these headers were properly prototyped and designed. Prove it. Stillen says there were four prototypes and four dynos. Where are the dynos? I find it hard to believe that after extensive prototyping, flow testing, and dyno testing it was not possible to gain any hp below 4300rpms.

 

I'll put in some money for hotshot headers to compare against stillens on their dyno, in front of me and my video camera. Anyone else down to pitch in? Good idea blu.

 

1) both. We have now tested 3 cars
2) Yes. The dyno program can run the same raw data in many different correction factors. SAE shifts all of the numbers down 3-7 HP and Torque. But the gains are still the same since the base line shifts as well.
3) Our prototype dyno numbers are not relevant to the production numbers since we do not produce those parts. Hence "Prototype".
4) You don't have to come here to have your car worked on. It's a wonderful thing, this freedom. However, I would encourage you to pay us a visit to see the dyno run up close and personal. Just a friendly invitation, that's all. I'll personally show you the dyno graphs in any conversion factor we have. I think we have 5.

I am sorry that you have had a bad personal experience and I cannot make that go away. All I can do is offer you a better one. It's obviously your choice whether or not to accept it.

Please have a good day.

Cheers.

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

Do you honestly mean to tell me that the prototype dyno numbers have no significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand?! They dont give evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter or issue under discussion?! They have no social relevance?! Are you serious?

 

Alex,

I have someone with a 2002 SE, Less than 18K miles and NO mods. He just got it.

He's willing and in the LA area.

Let's "get it on"

 

Interesting news....

Apparantely, someone from the org called up Alex at Stillen, and told him they were HNDA ETR (I'll withhold the perp's name)...

Now, I know my car is Da ****, but come on you lamer newb... use your own name...

from,

the REAL HNDA ETR

 

LOL! Thats funny as hell.
Hey man, I still want to check out your car sometime. I finally got mine back a while ago, but Ive been busy with school. PM me if youre around and you want to meet up. Im usually in the area of Westwood every night. I also had a question about your friend with the dyno in torrance. Hit me up.

 

Hey folks. As you know, we have been the subject of this thread for quite some time. I have told everyone reading it that we would run yet another test using a non-STILLEN car in order to confirm our numbers. Well, we have included an extra step on our behalf. We were able to borrow a vehicle from a Nissan Dealer, complete with paper window sticker (used vehicle, obviously). This car was completely stock and provided the perfect platform to test our headers. We even went so far as to test the Hi-Flow + header combo. So, below you will find a baseline dyno, header dyno and header + hi-flow dyno. I am also including the process to show how we went about the testing and the extensive systems monitoring that our Nissan Consult-II and Dynojet perform. Please take the time to look over all of this info.

These are the items that we monitor with our Nissan Consult-II and Dynojet dyno during all STILLEN testing.

 MAS readings in gm/s.
 MAS readings in Volts.
 Ignition timing.
 O2 sensor readings in Volts.
 ECU coolant temp. Reading at start of run.
 Inlet air temp.
 Air/Fuel ratio.
 Barometric pressure
 Humidity
 Dyno Correction factor
 Check for pending or current codes before and after testing.

This monitoring, as well as baselining the vehicle before every part installation ensures reliability and repeatability during testing.

Here is the testing process in chronological order:

 2002 Maxima SE 3.5L 4-spd. Automatic from local Dealership (w/38,000 miles)
 Filled with 91-Octane Gas
 Baselined the vehicle (3rd Gear Pulls)
 Installed Headers
 Installed O2 Clamp
 Dyno (3rd Gear Pulls)
 Installed Hi-Flow
 Dyno (3rd Gear Pulls)
 Returned car to stock

 BASELINE PEAK HP: 205.83
 BASELINE PEAK TQ: 220.27
 STILLEN HEADER PEAK HP: 218.84
 STILLEN HEADER PEAK TQ: 226.59
 STILLEN HEADER & HI-FLOW PEAK HP: 226.02
 STILLEN HEADER & HI-FLOW PEAK TQ: 228.58

 MAX HP GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 19.02 @ 6050rpm
 MAX TQ GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 16.52 @ 6050rpm

 MAX HP GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS & INTAKE= 26.72 @ 6050rpm
 MAX TQ GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS & INTAKE= 23.24 @ 6050rpm

We are prepared to show everyone that the gains we have stated are legitimate. In order to do that, we would like to test a board member’s stock (or very-near stock) 5th Generation Max (3.5L) in effort to duplicate these numbers. It will be a 2-day process. All of the dyno runs done will be done on DAY-1. Day-2 will be used to put the vehicle back to stock condition. It becomes a 2-Day process due to the cooling-off period needed in order to remove the stock exhaust manifolds and install the STILLEN Headers. If anyone would like to attend this, you are welcome.

 

 STILLEN HEADER PEAK HP: 218.84
 STILLEN HEADER PEAK TQ: 226.59

 MAX HP GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 19.02 @ 6050rpm
 MAX TQ GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 16.52 @ 6050rpm

 

 STILLEN HEADER & HI-FLOW PEAK HP: 226.02
 STILLEN HEADER & HI-FLOW PEAK TQ: 228.58

 MAX HP GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS & INTAKE= 26.72 @ 6050rpm
 MAX TQ GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS & INTAKE= 23.24 @ 6050rpm

 

Hey Alex,

I'll be there....

Also, I got the car too... sent you an email...

 

Thanks for your support, HNDA ETR. Could you work out the contact details with me via my email address?

Regards,

AC

 

Why are the dyno graphs cut off at 3500 rpms? Seriously what is that even about? Please repost the entire graphs so we can see what you gained or didnt gain below 3500 rpms.

So baseline Max Power and Max Torque were 205whp/220wtq and with the headers it was 218whp/226whp. So the gain in Max Power was 13 and the gain in Max Torque was 6. And the area under the curve is crap below 4300 rpms, which is obviously why you cut the graph off. Why would you even show these to us?

I think you may be confusing max power with the greatest difference. I’ve never seen a dyno that listed the “max power” as the greatest difference between the to plots, YOURS INCLUDED. So please stop saying that you had a max power gain of 19. Max power (ie the peak number) is the highest number on the plot, hence “max power”. It says right there on your graph, “Baseline…Max Power = 205” and “Headers…Max Power = 218.” You had a max power gain of 13whp on dynojet, the highest reading dyno possible. The greatest difference in the rpm band was 19 at 6050rpms. Am I wrong? If the max power is the point on the plot where you had the biggest difference, then why dont the numbers listed for “Max power” match? Why doesn’t it show you gained 19 for Max Power? Unless 218 minus 205 equal 19, that’s a false statement. You stated “max hp gain over stock w/headers = 19.02 @ 6050.” That would mean that the max power was a 6050, BUT IT WASN’T. Max power was around 5700rpms. It says so on your dyno! You have also put this statement in your advertisements. So why does the max powers readings conflict with that statement?

Also, on Stillen.com it says “The long awaited STILLEN header/race pipe is the largest bolt on power gain available for the 3.5L Maxima. On the dyno we got 19 additional horsepower at 5800 rpm and 14 ft-lbs of torque at 5700 - AT THE WHEELS!!!. Increases are most apparent from 4000 rpm to redline.” Why does it say you got 19 additional hp at 5800 when the dyno you based that on clearly shows you didn’t get nearly that much until 6100?

Also, can you please please tell me how you figure that prototyping is not relevent to the discussion of why stillen headers are not seeing reasonable gains? If these were prototyped, please prove it.

One more thing. If I pay for the hotshot headers and the install, will you compare them against your headers and your baseline when you do the next round of dyno testing?

 

Isn't that standard practice for automatic dyno pulls since you have factors like torque converter lockup and possible downshifting to 2nd below that point?

 

The car they dyno'd was an auto which is difficult to get accurate dyno info on in the lower rpm's. If you look at most auto dyno pulls they start around 3500 rpm's.

 

You beat me to the punch Y2K2Driver.

 

O ok. I though the 2k2/3s had a gated auto shifter with a 3rd gear. I guess it just has 1st and 2nd.

 

I try. As long as someone brought it up.

 

Im still trying to figure out why you guys are reading the dynos at 6050 rpms? Just because the difference in power is the greatest at that rpm doesn't mean you should advertise that as the peak power gains b/c its simply not true. Peak power = max power thats all there is to it.

 

Exactly. I dont think there is anything stillen can say in their own defense at this point. According to their dynos, they gained 13hp and 6tq, and they gained absolutely nothing below 4300 rpms. They claimed they gained 19hp/14tq online and in their advertisement, but that was a FALSE STATEMENT. Furthermore, they are willing to show us these dynos, yet they absolutely refuse to show the pics/dynos/testing of the prototype designs they claim to have made. That is obviously because they dont exist. They have proven that their headers were not designed properly beyond a reasonable doubt. Time to hand out refunds and hope their reputation hasnt been damaged too much more than it already was if you ask me. So lets hear it stillen, what are you going to do about this?!?

Also, I will buy hotshot headers and show up for your next round of testing and we can compare stock, stillen headers, and then hotshot headers. I live nearby and you can test the hotshot headers and ill just put them on my car when we're done. So what do you say?

 

I think the brainstorming on the board may be causing more confusion than it is solving. In some situations your peaks and maxes occur differently - that is why posting dynos is a double edged sword. The best rule of thumb is to use the dyno information as a good barometer as what to expect from a given product. A manufacturer lists peaks and max numbers as a common practice. But we also list the max gain which is the largest difference between stock and our product. Perhaps you should visit ATI Supercharger's site. I believe they list their max HP at the rev limiter. And yet, everyone is quite happy with those numbers. I do understand what you mean. When you purchase a vehicle, tell me what hp and tq numbers they print, advertise and tout in magazine reviews read in Motor Trend, Car & Driver, etc. Those numbers will be their highest gains. Nissan lists the 350Z numbers well above any normal operating parameters and very near redline for HP but for torque they stay in the 4000's. Why? Because those are the most impressive numbers. And they are completely true numbers that they can "on average" duplicate. You will have some weaker cars and some stronger cars, but those are the numbers they are happy with being able to use. We're not so different you see.

With regards to prototype data: You are more than welcome to ask Nissan, Infiniti, Subaru, HotShot, AEM and any other pertinent company for their prototype dyno sheets. Unless they have a motive in the sense of PR and marketing, there is no relevance. I think you will be heavily dissappointed with your results. They'll more than likely (as politely as possible) tell you to go pound sand. I'm not sure what you mean by social relevance?

Why are you using the board to rally dissent and strife?

How do you plan to fit a 3.5L header on your 3.0L car?

We are offering our help on this board. You seem to be overly bitter about things in general. Perhaps you should just call rather than use the board to work through things? I am more than willing the discuss anything further with you. Other members are using this board for constructive purposes. It is rather unfair to them to handle your personal issues using their neighborhood. I would like to personally help you. But in order to do that, you need to call me. If you don't take the offer, how can I help you? Perhaps, once we have worked through your problems, we can communicate on a different level?

 

When you study the dyno graphs: The peak is the highest point on a graph that a certain vector reaches. The max gain is the largest difference between the 2 or more lines being measured.

This is true in any vector plotting and graphing regardless of the subject.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

Taken straight off the Stillen site please explain...

Quote "On the dyno we got 19 additional horsepower at 5800 rpm and 14 ft-lbs of torque at 5700 - AT THE WHEELS!!!. Increases are most apparent from 4000 rpm to redline."

First of all this is all false and there is no gain at all at 4000 rpms. I know how to read dynos so I don't need a lesson. When venders advertise hp for there products they usually use peak gains not a certain RPM with the largest difference. But anyway please feel free to explain the info I took from the Stillen site.

 

2004 MAXIMA:
Engine
3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve V6 engine
265 hp @ 5,800 rpm
255 lb-ft of torque @ 4,400 rpm
Continuously Variable Valve Timing Control
System (CVTCS)
Nissan Direct Ignition System with
Platinum-tipped Spark Plugs S S
Electronic drive-by-wire
Variable Intake System (CVTCS)

2004 350Z:
Engine
3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve V6 engine
287 hp @ 6,200 rpm
274 lb-ft @ 4,800 rpm
Emissions — LEV
Continuously Variable Valve Timing Control
System (CVTCS)
High-flow intake system
Nissan Direct Ignition System
Platinum-tipped spark plugs
Electronic drive-by-wire throttle

2004 SENTRA:
Engine
1.8-liter DOHC 16-valve 4-cylinder engine
126 hp @ 6,000 rpm
129 lb-ft of torque @ 2,400 rpm
2.5-liter DOHC 16-valve 4-cylinder engine
165 hp @ 6,000 rpm
175 lb-ft of torque @ 4,000 rpm

QUOTE FROM MAGAZINE ARTICLE ON A C5 CORVETTE SYSTEM (NOT OURS):

“The system looks great and performs even better. We ran the car on the [chassis] dyno and were pleasantly treated to 644 RWHP at 5,700 RPM, with 609 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 RPM.”

My point in posting these numbers is that for every application and every different product, each manufacturer is using their best 'foot forward' or best results as their highlight. Notice how the hp numbers are around the 6000 rpm mark?

Regards,

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

 MAX HP GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 19.02 @ 6050rpm
 MAX TQ GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 16.52 @ 6050rpm

You can't see those lines that show those gains? The web says 'from'. Not 'at'. It's very similar to saying we sell intakes from $x. If we stated at $x, there would be nothing to question.

Do you EVEN HAVE these headers on your car?

Cheers.
AC

 

It would be so much easier if they (Stillen) just told the truth. Stillen has posted too much information (publicly, I might add...) that is conflicting with what this guy here states...

Dynos this, dynos that...the fact of the matter is that the dynos posted here by Stillen do not show the gains that are advertised by Stillen on their own website and sales literature. There have been no preliminary dyno posted on the headers despite the fact that we, the paying consumers, have asked for them. I want to see the runs that gained the 19hp/14tq posted here (the originals)...

 

I totally agree but it seems the messenger keeps bringing up info that is null and has nothing to do with the situation. I guess we will continue to listen to whatever he says and take it as a grain of salt.

 

for god sakes when will you realize that Max power is MAX POWER MEANING THE MOST POWER OUTPUT NOT THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE SOMEWHERE IN THE RPM BAND. I guess my hotshot headers gained about 25whp and about 40tq if I use Stillens method of advertising. And the website also says at 5800 for HP and at 5700 for TQ. Why are you trying to switch it to 6050 now? MAX power reads MAX POWER right in the top left corner of the dyno. I know your just trying to do your job but its not tricking anyone in believing some BS advertising, well the people that actually know how to read dynos.

 

No trickery. Max power and max gain are truly two different numbers. That is what we have been telling you. You must work for HotShot or Cattman.

Again - please attend the event unless you really live in NC.

I hope you try to have a good day. It is what you make it.

Cheers!

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

Do you have our headers on your car?

Cheers!

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

Nope after seeing 4 people make no power with the Stillen headers I chose to go with Hotshot. Better design, a heck of a lot cheaper. Once Erik (juice) saw the gains he purchased the Hotshot headers and dynoed and the difference from his Stillen to Hotshot header dynos was almost pitiful (as far as the weakness of Stillens product). As for me working for Hotshot or Cattman...nope have no relation with either one of them I just go by cold hard facts and compare.

 

Yes I do live in NC and my day kind of sucks b/c it won't stop raining. I hope you day is going good and thanks for asking about mine.

One thing Im just wanting to know is why on the site you are saying On the dyno we got 19 additional horsepower at 5800 rpm and 14 ft-lbs of torque at 5700 - AT THE WHEELS!!! but now you are using 6050 to measure gains. It doesn't add up which is all im trying to prove.

Matt

 

...oops....

 

It happens sometimes with different cars. The vehicle we had before was an official press car from Nissan. So, it was a little stronger of a car. But when you consider that we are only talking about 250rpm difference you can't even blink that fast. We could have stuck with 5800 and the opposite would have happened - meaning that the dyno would have shown 6050. That's what I mean by saying that dyno sheets can be a seriously double edged sword. They are a good gauge but should never be used for exact numbers. I typically like to give ranges such as 17-19 hp. What we did was use the middle gains rather than pick high or low ones. That way we would be able to say you might get 1 or 2 hp lower or higher - which is really the case. When you consider that cars have some pretty crazy tolerances. Point in case: We've dynoed 350Z's at 228 hp many times and others at 250 - BASELINE!!!! I would be seriously disappointed if I was the guy with 228......your talking about a big difference in stock power... That would mean that no-matter what I added, I would still be lower than all of my buddies' cars. Yet, Nissan will still quote that the car makes 287 (minus 18% driveline loss makes 235.34 at the wheels.) They're not wrong and neither is the customer for their feelings. I understand both sides.

I think you guys will be excited to see what we are doing with some of our pricing.

Sorry about the rain! And thanks for changing the tone. Makes for a better day.

Yours in service,

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

You are the one trying to cause confusion. Max Power means peak power means max power. Max power is the HIGHEST NUMBER. Please show me a single dyno that lists “max power” as the greatest difference. Yours certainly doesn’t. Find me one freaking dyno where the max power doesn’t correspond to the HIGHEST NUMBER. Please. You cant. You stated “MAX HP GAIN OVER STOCK W/HEADERS = 19.02 @ 6050rpm.” Ok, now answer this for me: Does 218 minus 205 equal 19? You said you had a MAX POWER GAIN of 19. Well, if you subtract the lower max power number from the higher max power number, then you get the GAIN. The gain is 13, not 19. Show me one dyno where MAX POWER does not correspond to the HIGHEST number!!!

You don’t think this is a PR motive? Everyone believes (read: knows) that your headers were not designed properly, and you don’t think its relevant? What are you talking about, pics of the hotshot prototypes were posted the second they were available. Furthermore, when the second cattman had their prototype (before even coating the headers), they posted dynos. So lets see the info on the four stillen headers prototypes.

How am I using the board to rally dissent and strife? All Im doing is stating facts. Max power means peak power. It’s not a difficult concept. You are making false claims and I am responding to them (and printing everything).

Well, if you listened before, the 3.0 and the 3.5 manifolds match. Cattman headers fit on both 3.0 and 3.5. There is no reason that hotshots wont fit on my car. SO IF I BUY HOTSHOT HEADERS WILL YOU TEST THEM AGAINST STILLEN HEADERS????????????????????????????? If the answer is no, then say so rather than avoiding the question.

You are not offering help. You are being dishonest and trying to legally cover you’re a$s. Unfortunately you have failed miserably and you will eventually get taken to court over this no doubt. Why would I call and have a private conversation when we cant talk here in a public forum so everyone can see what we have to say? How is this a personal issue? This is a public issue; you made false claims and we letting the community know so they don’t waste money on stillen headers.

 

I can understand your wanting to test the HotShot headers. But the topic of this thread is whether or not our gains are legitimate based on dyno info. We are going to test our headers on a member's car to show what those gains are. We have no interest in proving or disproving the HotShot Headers. We only want to show what our products produce - and frankly, that is all that is in question

Here are some examples listed on European (Magazine) car's website (http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0301ec_techbmw/) that show max hp and tq and max gain for hp and tq.

I hope this clears up any confusion:

You will need to use the dyno image to look at while you read along:

Here is one by a company that is very Sport Compact Oriented: HKS

HKS (second baseline used)
Weight: 22 lb Max hp: 215.1 Max torque: 222.7
Max power gain: 1.8 hp @ 6750 rpm Max torque gain: 1.6 lb-ft @ 4900 rpm

HKS USA
(310) 491-3300
www.hksusa.com

If you will please notice, the dyno sheet and data both show that the Max HP Stock and HKS show no gains at 6250rpm. But they list their max gains at 6750rpm being 1.8hp.

Here is another one from SuperSprint:

Supersprint--2-in., black
Weight: 31 lb Max hp: 217.9 Max torque: 222.6
Max power gain: 4.1 hp @ 4700 rpm Max torque gain: 5.4 lb-ft @ 4700 rpm

Here is one that shows the max HP and TQ at 6200 & 6300 rpm respectively. But it shows the MAX GAINS of 5.4HP at 4700rpm.

B&B TriFlo
Weight: 23 lb Max hp: 217.8 Max torque: 224.0
Max power gain: 5.4 hp @ 4700 rpm Max torque gain: 6.1 lb-ft @ 4600 rpm

Hope this helps.

Make it a great day!

Alex Cates
STILLEN

 

I believe there write ups are much more in depth and clearly show exactly what they are advertising where as Stillen doesn't. You're site shows no graphes and just states On the dyno we got 19 additional horsepower at 5800 rpm and 14 ft-lbs of torque at 5700 - AT THE WHEELS!!!. Which is now conflicting with what you're posting now and the rpm points. This is getting deeper and deeper and not proving anything but Stillen false advertised.

 

I agree...withOUT the graph or further numbers, Stillens' term of "Max Power" in their literature is clearly misleading and later disappointing buyers.