LOL, ok now that this is over with...lets get back to business as usual.

 

aww Mike what a softy...

 

Yeah, this is not bad, but plain out frustrating. I am trying to avoid becoming a cliche n00b and not ask repeated questions, but seriously...the HOW-TO section is a masoleum it seems.

 

E55AMG, after getting back sober and reading what I talked to you about on AIM last nite I must say your are quite a name caller- calling people on the .org, dumbas'es.

Well since I contribute to the .org quite more than you do, try to help people out as much as I can. I am gonna take a long break from this place. Don't bother banning me, its not like I am going to try to post. Banning me will do you as much good as "timing advancing" does to our Maximas.

 

What exactly have you contributed? I also try and help people as much as I can. What would I ban you for, and I agreee banning you would be no good at all.

 

people get all bent out of shape on contributing. i post ***** alot in the audio room but i also know good information and help alot of newbs out. however, i do not feel it is necessary to say in a thread that i contibute to anything except post whoring. this is an internet forum, not a courtroom. no need to justify any of our reasons for being here. E55AMG2's title is a moderator, whether he contributes or not isn't at question here... his job is to moderate and regulate.

 

You know what's funny here, is that your post (consistent with seafoam's) is exactly the overposting BS you are criticizing. Furthermore, considering about the only posting soonerfan does is in his regional forum, I don't see your point....and yes, I am backing him here because your post is factless and comes with no support.

Now, back to the topic at hand, I am glad to see that you (E55) have decided to open things back up for discussion. It just makes for a more relaxed mode of conversation here. Thanks.

 

Im not an unfair person, although it may seem that way at times. Its sort of the nature of my job....

 

You should be banning members who call names, sling insults and use profanity (like sand in the v****. I also think you should be locking threads that go off topic or are highjacked. Multiple posts on the same topic doesn't bother me because sometimes there are new things to add or different circumstances so posting to a thread that is 2 years old doesn't make sense since the participants who started the thread may not even be around.

 

QFT... I'll admit to posting a few "repost threads" becuase of this... Alot of the FAQ's are riddled with broken links and such....

 

but keep in mind there will always be new members and always be 'repeat' threads until those members get acquainted with searching on Yahoo (or, heaven forbid, donating). You can't expect them to just join up and know how... that's like me placing your butt down in front of a .50 caliber machinegun and asking you to explain to me about head space and timing.

 

Thats why most of the stickies say read before posting....including the "how to search" ones

 

make a quiz that newbies have to take before they are allowed to start threads

 

now there is an idea

 

irish, i think that was your best idea yet....i think that not only the newbies, but everyone (the newbs whenever they sign up) should have to take a quiz before having the ability to post....i think this would get the point across a lot better and a lot more of the newbs would actually read the stickies...

 

Great idea yes, but unfortunately the term "newbie" here is subjective considering there are many Org'ers that have a ton of posts that probably wouldn't pass the quiz.

 

yeah, like me, Im still a newbie..

 

So all technical threads must have dyno numbers before you will allow it? That would only kill 96% of those threads. Not everyone runs out to dyno something. That stipulation is a little too broad.

 

Well there's an entire thread about it about 2 pages back, so give that a look. Improvements are pretty massive and noticeable. Basically, for every degree you adjust up, you gain roughly 5HP to the wheels. I felt it, plenty of others here have as well.




not when you read this crap in another thread...not to talk smack about anyone but this is the reason for dyno's needed.

 

exactly, that's why i mentioned that not only newbs should have to take the quiz, then once you have passed it, it will be alright to post.

 

slickrick, this is NOT a direct response to you....but you brought up the "everyone should get a dyno after every engine mod" discussion....so I thought I'd pose some questions that I think are applicable to why a dyno is/isnot needed (ever):

-Let me ask you this: If you switch to a different motor oil, are you going to have an oil particle analysis performed on your old oil (and the new oil the first time you change it) to see which oil is causing more/less wear on your engine internals? No, I thought not.......

-do you do wind-tunnel testing before and after you put on your new front lip and side skirts? No.

-do you do audible decibal tests every time you get new speakers for your car? No (unless you are going to audio competitions)

-do you go to the skidpad and slalom course to get lateral g's measurements everytime you get new suspension components or tires? No

As for me, I'd rather spend $100 on a long night of drinking than having a dyno done. Does a dyno give you any more horsepower? no. Does a dyno give you any more torque? no. A dyno is only a numerical readout of what is happening already.

 

very well said...it kind of aggrivates me that whenever un-tested mods (whether they be by dyno, dB tests, etc.) are mentioned on the .org, there is ALWAYS someone who denies any change made by that mod, and says they wont believe it until they see 'PROOF' ... but i really think that if something has made such a significant difference in your car that you can actually feel it (because let's face it, not too many of us can feel a 1-2 hp boost) then that should be proof enough that something, indeed, has changed and you shouldn't have to go spend 60 bucks to get a dyno done, just to prove whether or not a mod had any effect or not...and not to metion, just because a mod doesn't show any hp or torque gains, doesn't mean that it didn't have any effect on performance...it could have just made the car more responsive, which would make it feel like something has changed, but wouldn't necessarily show up on paper...

 

I do everything except the wind tunnel thing (Noone does that anyways, unless you are a manufacturer)....side skirts and lip kits are just weight. They may look nice, but are totally useless for performance. If you talk to the people who developed them, even they will admit that they have no aerodynamic advantages whatsoever. They are purely for looks. There really is no such thing as a skidpad/slalom course. However you can make your own with some cones, chalk, a measuring wheel, and a long piece of twine. If you are modding for engine performance, dynographs are crucial to see whether or not you are making progress. However, I do agree with you in that certain mods dont need a dynograph (UDPs, Air filters, grounding kits, etc....). Now, lets say you have a supercharger...while it may add some power just slapping it on, you MUST put the car on a dyno to be able to extract the maximum performance from it. Same goes with headers or a Y pipe.

 

i understand your side Irish but i meant in THIS case a dyno is needed. it makes no sense claiming this and that for NO reason until a dyno can prove it... because i need alot more than the gibberish spoken around here to convince me to spend $ on a timing advance at Nissan. however, yes i do play with DB mics once in awhile to find differences in output at certain frequencie in my car.

 

The reason behind that is, most of the time the gains "felt" are grossly out of proportion. I was just like you when I first started out with maximas a little over 5 years ago. It started with an intake, that I swore made at least 8hp. I could feel it. I did a back to back comparison and sure enough it was 1.7whp. Ever since then, I dyno test all my major power mods. Now, I do agree with you on some points. UDPs do indeed make a difference, however its not going to show up on a dyno as horsepower. The difference is entirely in engine response, which makes a huge difference on a racetrack.

 

E55..... as to your particular testing....it was a general (rhetorical) statement, and aimed toward the "general audience". I'm well aware that body kits are dead weight (why do you think I don't have one), etc...and that people have their own ways of testing things (i.e. chalk on the parking lot). If you do all these tests after every audio mod or oil change, more power to you. But frankly, they are a waste of time for 99% of the people on here....

If my stereo puts out more decibels, does that mean the music sounds better? Not at all.....sound is subjective (as is engine feel, car handling, etc).

With FI setups, obviously a dyno is needed for tuning the TC/SC setup.....

I'm really not sure what the argument is here. I'm pretty sure there is NO question that timing advance improves the "performance" of the engine. Whether or not this translates into a specific horsepower rating is completely irrelevant. Engine performance is not always related to dyno numbers IMO.

Bottom line is, I've been working on (mostly classic sports-)cars for almost 20 years now (so I'm not some "tuner" newbie), and it's widely known that adjusting the timing of ANY engine will affect the performance of that engine. It's not an urban legend....

As to actual horsepower, since it's accepted by all that the timing advance results in gains LESS THAN 10 whp, I'm not sure what the argument is. It costs like 20 bucks to get it done for most who have done it.....even if it gives 2whp, it's worth 20 bucks. Even if it give ZERO whp but improved throttle response, it's worth 20 bucks.....



I digress now....

A guy I work with has a 350Z, and he did a ton of stuff to it (I neither recall, nor do I care what he did to it since he's not a friend)....anyhow, one day he passes me in the hall and he's like "dude, what does a maxima dyno at?" I replied that "my maxima would probably dyno somewhere in the neighborhood of 200whp (give or take), though I really don't care." He went on anyways about "I dyno'd yesterday at so and so performance shop and am putting down (insert number) horses." I said "so?" (was not in a good mood). So he's like "so that means I'm faster than you."

perfect example of why MOST guys dyno - for bragging rights. Only the most hardcore gearheads dyno to really try to tune their car perfectly....

damn, I am all over the place tonight. That' swhat happens when I type while watching TV and talking to my wife

 

I will note that Mike Jez (blackbirdVQ) DID dyno after timing advance for a gain of 6WHP (as I recall). Now granted he has a few more mods than some of us (understatement), but that seems to me to be conclusive proof that timing advance does have some effect (even if it's only 3whp on a less-modded engine like mine).

 

well, that's all well and nice...but I have better things to do with $50-100 bucks a pop and so do most of the people here.
(yes, yes, I'm sure you get it for free somehow...but that's not the point since most of us don't)....

And NOBODY NOBODY NOBODY has claimed that the timing advance is a "major power mod".

Major power mods = FI, headers, perhaps y-pipe, internals, etc
Major power mods do not = intake, pulleys, K&N filter, catback, GAB, or timing advance.

The "minor power mods" (2nd list ^) are often overstated by people on the org ("I can really feel my new intake") because people are excited after they install something they spent their hard-earned money on.

Then some of you guys just pooh-pooh everything that is less than headers or complete exhaust as "worthless"...

guess what, they're not worthless. Some people here can't afford to do the "big" mods or don't have the know-how. Some of us who COULD afford to go FI or big mods don't, because we spend our money on things other than our cars (check out housing prices in D.C. metro area).

Typical thread:
Post: "Hey guys, I just put on my y-pipe, and the gainst are nice"
Response: "You should have gotten headers"

typical.

I am on a roll now, there is no stopping me. I will argue you all to death and I will take this discussion in so many directions that by this time next week we will be arguing in this thread whether we prefer blondes, brunettes, or readheads better....

 

this is definitely true....i resorted to doing the GAB a while back, and i could have sworn that i didn't feel any gain at all, and even thought i was losing some power down low...but i think it was just because my mind couldn't justify gaining any power for the cost of a coat hanger...on the other side of the coin, if i were to go out and buy a $100+ intake, i probably wouldn't be as skeptical and would have probably thought there were gains....but since i can't afford this, i will most likely never know....i really don't like it when people on here tell others what irish said: "you should have gotten headers" alright, so why dont YOU give me the $800 not including install and we'll see if that can be done

 

Irish I'm not sure what your point is. You went from complaining about locked threads to the latest rant. MODS are fun do they all increase HP No. But they are fun to talk about and it's nice to get your hands dirty once in a while. You should have seen my Father inlaw's face when I told him I was chaning my own trany fluid. Sure I can afford to pay someone but that wasn't the point. I enjoyed learning about the different fluids, what people had to say, printing out the pics from crazy members like me and doing the deed. I tackled my gas filter today and plan on doing my own plugs too. Plugs sound so tame but not on our cars when you have to pull the intake.

 

I'm not really sure what my point was either .....suffice to say that the discussion on whether or not a dyno should be required to prove whether timing advance is effective is played out and cannot be won by either side, no matter what.

so if you think a dyno is required for a mod to work....do that mod, do a dyno. But don't complain that others don't feel the need to dyno just to inform you one way or the other...

and if you don't really care about dynos as they relate to mod...then don't do one, but don't complain that people don't believe you.

the discussion was getting so inane I couldn't help but go off on a tangent. apologies to all,

oh, and

 

Ill take all 3 at the same time, thanks very much

 

I agree there are many members who are too quick to dispell a simple MOD or are too quick to say get headers when they themselves don't have them and don't realize the cost involved and also the headaches of emissions. The butt dyno is good enough for me. If I'm spending bucks on headers then I would like to hear more about dyno testing. I would like to see independent testing too. Interesting enough I put in 89 octane gas and could feela difference over 93 octane. My butt dyno never lies.