If you actually HAVE H&Rs or Maxspeeds, please pick one of the above choices. If you don't have them, and never have, then don't post. No poll-whoring voting "I heard that H&Rs are good" or any such nonsense please....

 

I have now had my front only H&R drop since Saturday and am loving it! The drop looks great on my AE and the ride is just as smooth (if not smoother) than my OEM SE springs. I would highly recommend them.

 

i like how comfortable my maxspeeds are.

 

you only get 1/2 a vote then

 

i have had maxspeeds for about a little over 1.5 years. combined with kyb gr-2, i love the ride and lower stance. i picked them up for brand new for 82 shipped and have not regreted the purchase. the only thing i would change is a slightly lower drop in the rear.

 

My comments on the matter: I like my Maxspeeds with Illuminas. They ride nice, yet firm on all types of roads. Handling is very good, and they have a high enough spring rate to use for autocross as well.....

 

I have Maxspeeds and Illuminas on my car. I was kind of worried about doing this cause of the drop, I'm not a young kid anymore so I was kind of like waiting. I love the way the car looks in the front and the back. The Illuminas let me adjust the ride , the way I want it to. So I like them...but I haven't tested any H&R so I'm biased on quality ride....

 

Josh, I currently have the Maxspeed springs mounted to OEM struts. In over a year of riding on that setup, I've been pretty satisfied with the ride. However, the time has come to replace the OEM struts as they are beginning to go. The car is becoming quite loose and the feel is starting to get bouncy. I have brand new Tokico Blues in my garage just itching to be installed which will take place before I come to DC at the end of July. I really don't want to drive all that distance with the way the car is riding currently.

 

Well which springs are better? which are more ride quality? I hear that H&Rs are very good and very close to stock smothness.

 

I prefered keeping the stock ride over handling. After looking at many threads I went with the H&R / Illumina combo. Less than a week at 3F/3R it's still a little stiffer than I would like but the handling is great. I am going to try 2F/3R and see how I like it next.

 

Maxspeed and stock struts. Beautiful drop, bone jarring ride on rough streets.

 

Maxspeeds with Blues, the stance is much better than stock and the ride quality is similar. I am very happy with my decision.

 

H&R with Illuminas here and couldn't be happier with ride quality/handling. I have Illuminas set on 2F/2R and it's softer than stock in my opinion while it also looks better and handles very well. Sure, I wish I was lower in the front from time to time, but whenever I ride in other lowered Maximas without H&Rs, I'm reminded why I haven't switched them out.

 

H&R and illuminas all the way.

 

I think one thing can be said, and that is that no matter the spring, it is important to get good struts to go with it. Stock struts may be ok for a while, but they will go bad pretty quickly with any aftermarket springs.....ride quallity can be greatly improved by getting some Illuminas or GR2s, and they provide some ride quality adjustability. The difference between 1 (soft) and 5 (hard) on the illuminas are VERY different!

 

aren't the AGX's the one's that are adjustable?

 

brain fart...you are correct, good sir...

in any case, get Illuminas, they're better than any of the KYBs anyhow

 

agreed (although i haven't installed them yet )

 

from my post above I set my Illuminas to 2F/3R and for me the ride is now perfect. It is slightly dropped, slightly stiffer than stock but not by much and you can take a corner very hard without it leaning at all.

The struts definately make more of a difference than the springs. With the Illuminas out and set at 5 I could hardly push them down by hand at all, at 3 it was still tight. I went back to my stock one just to see how much pressure it took to push it down and it took almost no pressure at all to collapse it.

 

I had zero problems with my maxspeeds w/ GR2's. The ride was very comfortable and the drop was nice. I have coilovers now and the ride is much more jarring.

 

I had Maxspeeds with the stock struts for about 20,000 miles. The ride was close to stock and the handling (with an RSB) was much improved. The drop was ok. (about 1.5 inches)

At that 20,000 mile mark the struts started to get a bit mushy. I've got the D2 coilovers now and about a 3" drop.

 

I recently acquired a 2000 GLE, it has Illuminas in the front and it appears stock springs, the rears looks stock. The suspension is partcularily noisy on bumpy/ potholes with most of the noise coming from the passenger side front. I have no history on this car - so I don't know what was replaced when the illuminas were installed - Nissan has replaced the sway bar links. Any suggestions? The car is a Northern VA car and had been hit in the rt frnt and repaired. Does anyone know this car or where someone would most likely get the Illuminas in Northern VA.

 

I've had the H&R front only for a couple of months and the ride is great. I'm currently on stockers but will be upgrading to the Blues soon. I guess my vote and yours equals 1 whole vote...

 

check in the DC forum...maybe someone there knows the history on the car...

 

I've been riding Maxspeeds for almost exactly a year. I've driven in a Max with an H&R suspension, as well. Handling wise...both springs have practically identical characteristics. But aesthetically, Maxspeeds make the car sit better.

 

Guys,

How do your Maxspeeds and H&R's handle rough roads? How do they handle rough roads with a full load of passengers? Please be realistic with your answer.

 

really, it depends ALOT on what struts you are using, what setting the struts are at (if adjustable), what kind of tires you have (and what size) and what other suspension stuff you have done (RSB, LTB, etc)

 

I'll be using Illumina's. If some old fart like me can honestly tell me the Maxspeeds are an acceptable ride on rough roads with a full load of passengers with that set up (no rsb's ftsb, ltb or anything else) then I'll probably sell the H&R's I just bought to replace the Maxspeeds.

 

Positive finding for Maxspeeds:

Negative review of Maxspeeds with Illuminas:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....ight=maxspeeds

 

That doesn't sound right. Maxspeeds have always been progressive in the rear. I have not seen any Max spring that have progressive spring rates in the front.

 

How do you know Maxspeeds are progressive in the rear and how do you know that only the rears of the H&Rs are progressive?

Below is the documentation I found on H&R. I couldn't find anything on Maxspeeds.

Technical Orientation

Springs are the workhorse of the suspension system. The springs support the weight of the chassis, including passengers and load. The springs function as a cushion over irregular road surfaces. They also help control body roll, brake dive and rear squatting on acceleration.

Springs rates, or spring stiffness, greatly influence the handling characteristics of the chassis. Springs that are too soft will give a cushy ride, causing the vehicle to wallow in turns. A soft suspension will also tend to bottom out and produce a floating feeling at high speeds. At the other end of the spectrum, springs that are too stiff will give a harsh ride and reduce traction on rough-road surfaces.

Spring rates are the key factor in balance of the complete chassis. This leads to the debate between "linear" and "progressive" spring rates. There's no mystery about progressive springs: A progressive spring has a variable rate increase throughout its compression stroke. For example a progressive spring with a starting rate of 200 pounds per inch for the first inch of compression and an end rate of 400 pounds per inch for the next two inches of compression would then equal a load of 1000 pounds.

A linear spring rate has one rate throughout its deflection. This means, if you have 300 pounds per inch spring rate, it takes 300 pounds to compress that spring one inch. A 300 pounds per inch linear spring, compressed three inches, would equal a load of 900 pounds. As you can see, one progressive spring can do the work of two or more linear springs. This is a big advantage in modern automotive chassis design, fulfilling the needs of today's discerning customers.

So why are linear springs still popular? Linear springs are readily available and inexpensive, allowing most race teams to use several different sets depending on track conditions. Linear springs are also easy to work with because the spring rate never changes, allowing for quick chassis set-up. This user friendly appeal is why so many chassis tuners are critical of progressive rate springs. These chassis tuners do not have the know-how to use progressive rate springs, or if they do have the knowledge, the manufacturer that they use is not capable of producing the design specified. Springs with a high linear rate would be used on a smooth racetrack, while on a rough or bumpy road course; you would use a softer spring rate. Since many racetracks have different road surfaces a suspension that is adaptive to changing road surfaces is desired. Progressive rate springs can offer a chassis tuner the means to achieve a compliant suspension in the rough and a tight suspension for high-speed turns.

Another issue that adds to the debate between "Linear" and "Progressive" rate springs, is that when most spring manufacturers say that their springs are progressive they are not! Springs may be wound progressively, but that does not mean that they function progressively. Some suspension springs are wound progressively but function as a linear spring. These springs can be called "dual-stage" coils, but are generally referred to as springs with "dead" or "inactive" coils. Dead or inactive coils are coils that are in contact with adjacent coils at loaded height. Inactive coils do nothing but give the spring enough free-length to stay tight in the spring perches at full rebound (when the tires and wheels are hanging in the air like when the car is on a lift). A spring that is wound with inactive coils and no progressive coils that are active, is actually working as a linear-rate spring. This is why when you call a spring manufacturer for spring rates for your application you must ask, "What is the actual working spring rate?" This ensures that you do not just get numbers quoted from a design sheet. For example: A design sheet may have rates of 69lbs. per inch, to 160lbs. per inch, to 220lbs. per inch. When the actual rate is 170lbs. per inch to 220lbs. per inch. As you can see, getting the correct information is important in making a true comparison.

Each spring design has its own market. The following examples show how important the correct spring can influence chassis dynamics. Progressive springs on a front wheel drive streetcar, will deliver a great ride while cruising, and sportive handling when the vehicle is driven hard. When the same car with progressive springs in the rear is used for all out racing, too much weight transfers to the rear axle, causing the front end to lift and the front tires to spin. Therefore, a linear rate rear spring is desired in a front wheel drive racing car. In a rear wheel drive automobile, this rear end loading, with a progressive rear spring, will reduce wheel spin and increase traction.

Springs come in many different forms. Commonly used types include leaf springs, which are used at the rear axle of automotive suspensions, consisting of several layers of flexible metallic strips joined to act as a single unit. Torsion bars are straight bars, which function like a coil spring. These are mainly found in front suspensions and consist of a calibrated, specially hardened metal bar that twists during suspension travel.

Coil springs, also known as helical or spiral springs are the most frequently used springs in general automotive suspension. The technical name for coil springs is helical springs. The name, "helical" comes from the word helix, defined as a three dimensional curve that lies on a cylinder or cone and cuts the elements at a constant angle. A progressive spring would be a double helical spring.

Springs are available in many different levels of performance and quality. Choosing a spring with the ride height you desired and level of performance you demand, balanced with the quality and durability you expect, can be challenging. Most people are content to achieve a "look" in lowering, and the "feel" in handling, at a cost they can afford. The more enduring principal in spring selection is the quality and durability of a dynamic suspension component. It is critical in today's competitive market to offer high quality spring sets. With so many choices in the spring market, a small business cannot compensate for lost time and profits, when customers return with quality problems. The spring retailer must be able to sell springs, which will not sag, fatigue, or lose their coating. There is considerable value in purchasing a superior quality spring. That value lies in a well engineered, durable product, which will perform consistently and trouble free.



H&R Springs: The Quality Story

H&R Springs are made in Germany. While design work, testing and pre-production analysis are performed in the U.S., the strict German testing protocol is adhered to, ensuring absolutely the finest product obtainable. From the start, H&R Springs (founded by namesakes, Herr Werner Heine and Herr Heinz Remmen) have been the industry leader for quality and new ideas, continuously setting new performance standards.

More than 20 years ago, H&R Springs was the first spring manufacturer to introduce T.Ü.V. to the European market. T.Ü.V. (Technischer Überwachungs Verein) is a German Government agency that regulates automotive products to maintain motor vehicle safety standards. In Germany, no automotive modifications are allowed unless that part has been approved for use by T.Ü.V. T.Ü.V. approvals require precise descriptions of the materials, production methods and quality assurance details. Loose sample springs must be readily available for laboratory testing, load compression curves, and spring rate force at any time. The T.Ü.V. also fits springs into vehicles for extensive test-drives. The test car is tested in fully loaded and empty modes, and at normal and race speeds. It is only upon successful completion of these tests that a T.Ü.V. Approval Certificate is issued.

Initially, it was necessary to convince the German bureaucracy that a lowering spring could be used safely. Herr Heine and Herr Remmen, both steadfast automobile enthusiasts accepted the challenge. Working closely with the German agency T.Ü.V., H&R proved their quality, consistency and increased safety and the springs were certified. While other spring manufactures and chassis tuning companies claimed that T.Ü.V. would revoke H&R's certifications and nothing would come of the spring lowering market in Germany, H&R Springs was establishing a completely new market. So while Heine and Remmen were at the Nürburgring testing and developing new suspensions other spring manufactures were making springs from die stamping machines. It was more than three years later that other manufacturers entered the lowering spring market. H&R Springs Germany with their fine product actually has boosted the whole automotive spring market. By being the first, and offering all high quality products, H&R created consumer confidence in the lowering spring market. This allowed other spring manufacturers to enter the market with ease, relying on costly advertising campaigns to get their name out.

H&R Springs is always introducing new industry standards. At the 1993 International Motor Show in Essen, Germany, H&R Springs introduced automotive suspension kits and spring sets with A.B.E. certification. A.B.E. means Allgemeine Betriebs - Erlaubnis. This is a special approval, which was not thought possible for an aftermarket spring. Introduction of A.B.E. certified spring sets shocked the rest of the aftermarket spring industry because A.B.E. approval goes beyond the normal T.Ü.V. approval.

As mentioned before, prior to the sale of a product for installation on a vehicle in Germany, it must be T.Ü.V. approved. After purchasing the automotive product, the vehicle owner must arrange for installation, then make an appointment with T.Ü.V. for testing and documentation of the modification. The car owner may have to take a day off of work for this testing and must also pay an additional fee of about $200.00 to $300.00 to T.Ü.V. for this documentation process. Once the purchaser has successfully completed these procedures, he must carry the complete T.Ü.V. documentation in the glove box of that car.

The higher standard of an A.B.E. certification means that the purchaser can simply install the springs and maintain the paperwork in the glove compartment of the modified vehicle. The nuisance and added expense of the normal T.Ü.V. procedure are passe for the consumer of A.B.E.-certified products. A.B.E. approval is only granted after a great deal of paperwork. German government inspectors review all parameters of spring product development. All spring designs, testing machines, spring wire alloys, heat treating, shot peening, zinc-phosphate and electrostatic powder coating, must meet A.B.E. specifications. Continuing quality control is of the utmost importance because an A.B.E. approved product can be subject to surprise inspection at any time. During the inspection, any quantity of the product can be removed from stock and tested at the A.B.E. laboratory. If a product fails an A.B.E. test, certification can be revoked for all of that companies A.B.E. approved products.

Having ISO9001 approval confirms H&R's commitment to quality. ISO is an independent agency with internationally recognized manufacturing quality standards. To be accepted by ISO 9001, the design and complete manufacturing process must be continuously maintained to specified quality standards. ISO 9002 is a lower standard, which means you can only manufacture springs. 100% of H&R Springs are made to ISO 9001 standards; no other spring manufacturer has these qualifications!

H&R Springs also meet or exceed D.I.N. (Deutsche Industrie Norm), and SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), engineering specifications for helical, cold wound springs. All these quality levels can only be obtained by precision design and production facilities.



Design: Form and Function

Design starts with an understanding of the automotive enthusiast's needs. These needs are considered by H&R engineers and are integrated into the design of each particular prototype spring set.

At this point, prototype spring sets are developed and are subjected to grueling test sessions where all facets of the chassis dynamics are analyzed. Key elements involved in development included ride height and spring rate, which are dictated by the handling characteristics of a stock chassis, stock suspension limitations, tire and fender well clearance. When a design has been finalized, the manufacturing planning process begins. Manufacturing high quality automotive springs can only be achieved with true understanding of the requirement of the correct metal alloy wire and modulus-elasticity or spring wire resilience.

H&R Springs only uses superior quality from the precision mills Thyssen, DWK, and Krupp Steel Works in Germany. The materials used are a special spring chromium-silicon (CrSi) for wire diameters up to 16mm, and special spring chromium-vanadium (50-CrV 4) for wire diameters above 17mm. This special spring steel is used exclusively because of its service life than any other wire tested. These materials ensure a defect-free function over the entire service life. If you compare wire material alone, other spring brands wire would not come close to the quality of H&R wire alloy. H&R Spring production is a very refined, time-honored tradition with state-of-the-art technology.

All H&R Springs are cold wound on precision Wafios CNC spring coiler. After the coiling process, the springs are heat-treated. This heat treating is very important since the spring is wound from a one ton ring of heat treated wire stock that is about three meters in diameter, and then formed into a small coil spring. This winding process creates heat and stress spikes between the molecules of the wire. The stressed molecule spikes must be realigned. If more than two hours pass prior to heat treatment, the springs lose their resilience. H&R's manufacturing is distinguished from the normal practice because H&R springs receive secondary heat treating or annealing immediately. After tempering, the springs go to grinding. If required, the spring ends are wet ground flat. For example, the top of front Mustang and Mercedes springs are ground flat for precise fitment.

Next, the springs are shot peened. Shot peening is a process that works on the thin surface layer. The spring surface is blasted with metal shot moving at very high speed. This blasting or peening action of the shot removes surface imperfections and relieves internal stresses. Shot peening technique is only useful if the blasting action is directed to the area of the highest stress, which is the inside of a coil spring. So important is the shot peening for a cold wound coil spring that service life is extended by more than 200%. Only finer quality spring manufacturers automatically shot peen their spring products. Most other spring brands just say they do.

The next step in high quality manufacturing is pre-setting the spring. Pre-setting is when the spring is completely set to block. This is where the spring is compressed so all the coils are touching. This gives the spring a permanent set and will not sag during its service life. A pre-set spring can also be referred to as a block resistance spring. In production, a spring is actually made to a longer free length than required because the spring gets shorter during the setting process, thus bringing it down to the design specifications. All H&R Springs are pre-set using an exclusive Super Blok' spring setting procedure. The springs are set 4 times or to specific time duration depending upon spring design. Some manufacturers do not set their springs, or if they do, they set them only once. There are more springs on the market today that are not "block resistant," than are "block resistant." After setting, the springs are 100% tested on an exclusive H&R designed tester for ride-height and spring-rate according to design specifications. This is the final step before coating. H&R Springs utilize intensive quality standards for spring deflection testing, surpassing all industry and government standards.

Now the springs are ready for the coating procedure. H&R has developed a unique state-of-the-art, comprehensive finishing system. The springs are hung on a conveyer track from start-to-finish. When the spring is placed on the hook it becomes electrolytic charged and attracts opposite charged cleansing and coating particles. First, the springs are cleaned and degreased with a non-aggressive alkaline solution. Then a zinc-phosphate coating is applied as a base for the paint. While still on conveyer, the spring is dried. From the drying cycle the spring goes directly to the spray booth. The opposed charged polyurethane epoxy powder coating is manually applied. Only in this manner can a coating thickness of 30 - 50mm be guaranteed. In the case of automated spray booths, irregular coating thicknesses from inside to the outside of the spring are common. A coating that is too thick tends to result in cracks in the coating during motion and could cause corrosion.

The curing process is the next step. The spring travels to the oven and cured at a temperature between +374 degrees F and +392 degrees F. Temperature is critical because if it's too low the powder coating will not cure properly. Temperatures that are too high will reduce the shot peening effect. The speed of the conveyer is precisely timed according to the dimension of the material.

A spring manufacturer can only regulate powder coating curing temperatures, correct phosphating techniques, and coating thicknesses if they are all done in-house. When the springs move out of the curing oven they are removed from the conveyor track, and the spot where the hook was holding the spring is painted by hand. The spring is now completely protected from the elements. No spring manufacturer in the U.S. does this last, very detailed step. Springs finished with this coating procedure can resist corrosion in a salt spray test in excess of 500 hours without any blemish to the coating. The salt spray test is where a warm salt slurry solution is sprayed at a constant pressure onto the spring to check corrosion resistance. If the correct phosphating procedure is not followed, the coating will fail and the spring will rust in less than 120 hours in the salt spray test. H&R test all coatings before use; they must pass before they are considered for use.

Since the proper pre-treatment, coating application, curing, and final detailing steps are labor intensive, coating companies in the U.S. may choose not to employ these techniques to high overhead costs.

The springs are now stamped with designation marks to identify them. The finished product is now carefully packaged into specially engineered containers during shipment to the United States to prevent transit damage.

H&R Special Springs is proud of each spring released because they will always be manufactured with careful attention to design and quality control.

At H&R Special Springs, we welcome all your technical spring questions since we have nothing to conceal. Other spring companies may not want you to ask about the wire they use, or their production facility. And they may not be able to answer questions about their coating process.



http://www.hrsprings.com/site/about/manufacturing.html

 

I'm not going to argue with anyone about H&Rs being good springs. I know they are. As for Maxspeeds...

Maxspeeds are made by a parent company called Golden Apple Corporation, based out of California. This company also makes ADR, RSL, and Stern wheels and Nex suspension components, as well as several other performance automotive brands....as to the Maxspeeds themselves...can't seem to find much actual info on them, but frankly I think the opinions in the poll above speak for themselves. Both seem to satisfy their owners......I drive both crappy roads and autocross with mine, and have no complaints.....

As to the H&R writeup....Did you think they were going to say that other springs were better?

I mean...self-serving
so....how do we know H&R isn't just "saying they do" as well? Because Germans don't lie? Because Europeans have such a great work ethic?

I listen ALL the time to ski/snowboard reps give clinics during the winter on how their product does this and that, and uses better materials and processes than anyone else. Then the next one comes in the next day and says the same thing, and so on. It's called "marketing"......just because a company says that THEY do it the best way, doesn't mean it's true......K2 skis have the BEST marketing out there, the longest tech writeups, and the most "advanced" materials....but of all the major brands, they are far behind in quality and performance.....I've worked at a ski shop for almost 10 years now and see this firsthand. Best Marketing /= Best Product

Just look at APC....they always say their stuff is "the best" but we all know it's crap...

This thread was to get peoples' opinions on whether or not they liked springs that they had actually used, or not.....not to see which company has a better, more convincing self-serving writeup of their own product.....

 

i've had my h&R's and illumina's a little more than a year and i like them a lot. i wish the drop were a little more even though. maybe like 1.6" or 1.7" in the front instead of 1.4". i like where the back end sits though.

 

maxspeeds on stock struts, amazing smooth ride, so close to stock, i just didnt like the look, it looked a million times beter than stock, it looked like the car should have been from the factory IMO

 

I don't know if I qualify as an 'old fart driving w/Maxspeeds' as someone asked for earlier in the thread but I got mine installed with some Illuminas about 1.5 weeks ago and so far I am extremely happy. Everything is set to the default 3 and the ride is still as smooth as stock with a much sportier 'feel' to it. I do have a FTSB and have been riding around with the old suspension crap still boxed up in the trunk and the kids often in the back seats. Perhaps that's not enough of a load but I have noticed nothing similar to what that one negative review of Maxspeeds mentioned. To each his own I guess...

 

You don't qualify yet but give it about 3 more years.
Thanks for the input. Perhaps the Illuminas just make a huge difference. How are the roads you drive on? Some of these roads in NYC are look like we've been through a war. Have you driven on roads like that with a full or near full passenger load? If so, what was it like?

Thanks.

 

This thread was titled the DEFINITIVE Maxspeed vs H&R thread. I provided two pieces of info. One was my direct experience with Maxspeeds and the other was obviously H&R generated info. Certainly any reader can place the appropriate weight on the validity of each piece of info. In any case both seem fit within the guidelines of the title of the thread. For your info, I'm not a Maxspeed hater, and I've read and learned alot from many of the things you've posted in the past, so no need to get defensive about what I post. But don't you find it a little unusual that almost no info can be found about the Maxspeeds manufacturer or info on the springs themselves?

 

Agreed . . .

 

How long do you guys think I will be able to ride on stock shocks on 2k SE with H&R spring before having to replace the shocks?

Which springs put the list damage on the shocks and why do the shocks ware out quicker with aftermarket springs?

 

Not at all, a lot of parts available for the Maxima doesn't have very good documentation. Even the H&R's don't say what their technical specifications are. But i understand what you're trying to say. No contest there. And this coming from a guy who has an account with Golden Apple (distributor of Maxspeed).