Need some brainstorming help for new 5th gen project
#42
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Originally Posted by mingo
u seem to be making an air flap for something.. am i wrong?
I wasn't going to post the idea until I found out if it was effective in doing what I want it to do, but what the hell....
now somebody more industrious than me can do it first
#43
stroke isnt an issue. you can use a lever to increase it, with force being 'F' and 'O' being objective, and V or ^ being pivot..
F__V_______O
or for a swinging door
.........\
V_F___)
........./
F__V_______O
or for a swinging door
.........\
V_F___)
........./
#44
if oyu see what i mean. if not, ill take some quick pics and email them, or MSpaint some ish...
obviously, if you needed 2" of travel, and had a 1" stroke, you would make V-F ½ the distance of F-O
obviously, if you needed 2" of travel, and had a 1" stroke, you would make V-F ½ the distance of F-O
#45
i figured tha'ts what u wanted to do, some air flap for the intake since u autocross.
one thing i looked at before in the past was the stock honda airbox vacuum actuator. you can get an electrical vacuum check switch hooked up to the vacuum actuated push rod. that should work fine too =D.. or maybe you won't even need a switch, cuz once u rev it or open your throttle to a certain point that thing will just open up =D.
one thing i looked at before in the past was the stock honda airbox vacuum actuator. you can get an electrical vacuum check switch hooked up to the vacuum actuated push rod. that should work fine too =D.. or maybe you won't even need a switch, cuz once u rev it or open your throttle to a certain point that thing will just open up =D.
#46
I have a real good idea, why don't you spring load the flap to shut, then you only need to open it. You could use a door lock type actuator, and a lever to make the required travel distance. You would also only have to worry about the opening part of the trick. and if anything failed, it would close back to stock. very simple to fabricate, and wire up. you could even be cool, and wire in a WOT switch for automatic activation when it is needed with a on/off arming switch kinda like a nitrous wiring setup.
#47
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Originally Posted by TAPOUT
I have a real good idea, why don't you spring load the flap to shut, then you only need to open it. You could use a door lock type actuator, and a lever to make the required travel distance. You would also only have to worry about the opening part of the trick. and if anything failed, it would close back to stock. very simple to fabricate, and wire up. you could even be cool, and wire in a WOT switch for automatic activation when it is needed with a on/off arming switch kinda like a nitrous wiring setup.
out of curiosity, how would you rig up a WOT switch? attach it to the VIAS mechanism?
Jason, did you say you had a lock switch available? How much?
#49
you could use a light duty spring, and also have gravity to assist you, i guess. you can also order actuators in different load strangths.
WOT switch would be just like nitrous, but ive got an even better idea...
if youre doing this so you can have good low end response but better high end power, dyno your car with the 'flap' in either position. match the plots against eachother and find the approximate point where the curves cross, add a window switch triggered at the corssover point, and now you have MAD VTAK y0!
WOT switch would be just like nitrous, but ive got an even better idea...
if youre doing this so you can have good low end response but better high end power, dyno your car with the 'flap' in either position. match the plots against eachother and find the approximate point where the curves cross, add a window switch triggered at the corssover point, and now you have MAD VTAK y0!
#50
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Originally Posted by irish44j
that sounds like a good plan. Would the door lock actuator be strong enough to hold it open against the load of the springs?
out of curiosity, how would you rig up a WOT switch? attach it to the VIAS mechanism?
Jason, did you say you had a lock switch available? How much?
out of curiosity, how would you rig up a WOT switch? attach it to the VIAS mechanism?
Jason, did you say you had a lock switch available? How much?
You'd rig it up like the nitrous guys do it, by putting it on the throttle body, since we the BEST 3.0's still have the old style more dependable and way better, throttle bodies that are cable driven not throttle by wire <--- for some reason that sounds really to me, lol.
The part that the cable ataches to by the throttle body at wot goes into a 90 degree position thus it would hit the wot switch causeing your "" SWITCH"" to activate
#51
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Originally Posted by irish44j
pretty much on target...basically, I'm trying to combine the low-end benefits of our stock air box with the high-end benefits of a GAB...i.e. a GAB that can open and close with the flick of a switch....
I wasn't going to post the idea until I found out if it was effective in doing what I want it to do, but what the hell....
now somebody more industrious than me can do it first
I wasn't going to post the idea until I found out if it was effective in doing what I want it to do, but what the hell....
now somebody more industrious than me can do it first
However, I dont really see the low-end gains to be that great to go through all this trouble. As I understood it, the GAB retained the most lowend of all the intake options.
I could also be wrong, but I would need a dyno sheet to shut me up.
#52
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hmm...just thought of a better idea.
1. the VIAS mechanism is already tuned to open at the best power-producing RPM.
2. instead of having the throttle body trigger the opening, I'm going to try to think of a way to have the airbox open up when triggered by the VIAS opening.
btw, if someone else does this before me, you better tell me how you did it
1. the VIAS mechanism is already tuned to open at the best power-producing RPM.
2. instead of having the throttle body trigger the opening, I'm going to try to think of a way to have the airbox open up when triggered by the VIAS opening.
btw, if someone else does this before me, you better tell me how you did it
#54
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Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
how do you know that the VIAS point is the best switchover point?
If you guys know me, there is no way in hell I'm going to dyno anything, so "guesstimating" is going to be the way I'll do it.....that, and just trying to be logical.
#56
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Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
lol, okay...
the VIAS is specifically tuned for the length and shape of the runners, so i doubt that the point will be the same... but maybe
the VIAS is specifically tuned for the length and shape of the runners, so i doubt that the point will be the same... but maybe
#57
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Originally Posted by irish44j
well, I mean I don't KNOW...but the VIAS opens to allow the airflow to travel faster though the IM, so it serves logic that at the moment the airflow in the IM becomes less restricted that this would be the precise time you'd want to allow more air into the IM (via the intake opening).....
If you guys know me, there is no way in hell I'm going to dyno anything, so "guesstimating" is going to be the way I'll do it.....that, and just trying to be logical.
If you guys know me, there is no way in hell I'm going to dyno anything, so "guesstimating" is going to be the way I'll do it.....that, and just trying to be logical.
#58
Originally Posted by irish44j
perhaps....but it's as good a theory as any
theory?!
upstate, the runners change the effective runner length for intake manifold pulse tuning, esentially creating a ram effect and a positive pressure wave timed to enter the cylinder as the intake valve opens...
#59
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Originally Posted by upstatemax
The VIAS point is pretty high about 5100RPMS (some have dropped it about 4900). I would think that 4-4500 and your engine is looking for more air. I thought the VIAS just changed the runners so that the air runs more efficiantly into the engine, not so much that it lets "more" air in.
just a guess though...I'm no induction expert.
#60
no, if it were restricting flow, then why put it in in the first place...
it adjusts the runner length so the resonant frequency matches the engine speed. i can fully explain this if you like
it adjusts the runner length so the resonant frequency matches the engine speed. i can fully explain this if you like
#61
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Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
no, if it were restricting flow, then why put it in in the first place...
it adjusts the runner length so the resonant frequency matches the engine speed. i can fully explain this if you like
#62
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Originally Posted by irish44j
right....it essentially increases the airflow velocity into the engine. But when you increase airflow velocity the air is going through faster (duh), and therefore I would think it would be helpful to allow a higher volume of air in, or at very least allow a higher airflow velocity all the way through the intake and TB.
just a guess though...I'm no induction expert.
just a guess though...I'm no induction expert.
The only real way to tell is to set one up and try it at different points. If you do it let us know.
#63
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Originally Posted by upstatemax
I agree, I just think that you would benefit from the increased airflow earlier than 5100rpms. The VIAS is there to "maximize" the use of the air comming in at top end. there is nothing saying that more air earlier on wont help.
The only real way to tell is to set one up and try it at different points. If you do it let us know.
The only real way to tell is to set one up and try it at different points. If you do it let us know.
#64
Originally Posted by irish44j
the same reason that there is a compressed "kink" in the OEM b-pipe on the maxima. If maximum airflow is achieved with the OEM intake box, why do people put on aftermarket intakes?
the kink in the b-pipe, youre talking about for the clearance for the tunnel bracing, right?
#65
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Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
is maximum airflow acheived with the OEM box? if it is, then your answer is sound/looks. i guess.
Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
the kink in the b-pipe, youre talking about for the clearance for the tunnel bracing, right?
I know it's not the same idea as the intake, but it's just one of those cost-cutting measures or oversights that EVERY OEM car has someplace on it
#66
Originally Posted by irish44j
hmm...just thought of a better idea.
1. the VIAS mechanism is already tuned to open at the best power-producing RPM.
2. instead of having the throttle body trigger the opening, I'm going to try to think of a way to have the airbox open up when triggered by the VIAS opening.
btw, if someone else does this before me, you better tell me how you did it
1. the VIAS mechanism is already tuned to open at the best power-producing RPM.
2. instead of having the throttle body trigger the opening, I'm going to try to think of a way to have the airbox open up when triggered by the VIAS opening.
btw, if someone else does this before me, you better tell me how you did it
Sorry, just had to clear my throat a bit...
What? I don't get any credit? BTW: I think I've thunk up another option that you may want to consider....
#67
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Originally Posted by GBAUER
MMMuuuhhhh-huuuuummmmm!!!!
Sorry, just had to clear my throat a bit...
What? I don't get any credit? BTW: I think I've thunk up another option that you may want to consider....
Sorry, just had to clear my throat a bit...
What? I don't get any credit? BTW: I think I've thunk up another option that you may want to consider....
#68
what kind of forces are you looking at? if it is going to lift something too heavy you will have to get heavy duty servos, or even then they might not be powerful enough. Also most RC car and truck servo's run at 4.8 or 6v.
the CDROM "motor" idea wont work, it is not the right type of motor, unless you want to use a gear drive and not a hinge style like you would with a servo.
the CDROM "motor" idea wont work, it is not the right type of motor, unless you want to use a gear drive and not a hinge style like you would with a servo.
#69
I just read part of the second page and got to the part where you want to make a flap kind of thing on the stock air box. I think a RC servo would be able to do that without a problem. Would actually work quite well.
If you were to rig it using a WOT switch just run it off the throttle body (could probably grab the signal from the stocker). A better way would be to use a RPM switch because you can have it switch over at the most effective point. Think of it, if you use an WOT switch and you go WOT at 3000rpm the flap is going to open at 3000rpm and stay open until you lift, but say you would be making more power with the flap closed until 4000rpm. You aren't going to go partial throttle until 4000RPM then go WOT because the gains from the "flapper" wont be enough to justify it lol.
to properly setup a window switch with that design you would want 2 dyno's. One run with the flap open, and one run with the flap closed. You overlay the two graphs and find the crossover point and that is where you want the flap to open . again that would be the most effective way.
IMHO It would be wise to build the flap part and dyno before you invest in all the electronics/etc because you might find the gains aren't enough to justify the cost/work
If you were to rig it using a WOT switch just run it off the throttle body (could probably grab the signal from the stocker). A better way would be to use a RPM switch because you can have it switch over at the most effective point. Think of it, if you use an WOT switch and you go WOT at 3000rpm the flap is going to open at 3000rpm and stay open until you lift, but say you would be making more power with the flap closed until 4000rpm. You aren't going to go partial throttle until 4000RPM then go WOT because the gains from the "flapper" wont be enough to justify it lol.
to properly setup a window switch with that design you would want 2 dyno's. One run with the flap open, and one run with the flap closed. You overlay the two graphs and find the crossover point and that is where you want the flap to open . again that would be the most effective way.
IMHO It would be wise to build the flap part and dyno before you invest in all the electronics/etc because you might find the gains aren't enough to justify the cost/work
#71
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Originally Posted by woosh
Irish,
If I understand you correctly the same mechanism that is used on those older style flip up headlights is kinda what you're looking for?
If I understand you correctly the same mechanism that is used on those older style flip up headlights is kinda what you're looking for?
#72
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Originally Posted by MrGone
I just read part of the second page and got to the part where you want to make a flap kind of thing on the stock air box. I think a RC servo would be able to do that without a problem. Would actually work quite well.
If you were to rig it using a WOT switch just run it off the throttle body (could probably grab the signal from the stocker). A better way would be to use a RPM switch because you can have it switch over at the most effective point. Think of it, if you use an WOT switch and you go WOT at 3000rpm the flap is going to open at 3000rpm and stay open until you lift, but say you would be making more power with the flap closed until 4000rpm. You aren't going to go partial throttle until 4000RPM then go WOT because the gains from the "flapper" wont be enough to justify it lol.
to properly setup a window switch with that design you would want 2 dyno's. One run with the flap open, and one run with the flap closed. You overlay the two graphs and find the crossover point and that is where you want the flap to open . again that would be the most effective way.
IMHO It would be wise to build the flap part and dyno before you invest in all the electronics/etc because you might find the gains aren't enough to justify the cost/work
If you were to rig it using a WOT switch just run it off the throttle body (could probably grab the signal from the stocker). A better way would be to use a RPM switch because you can have it switch over at the most effective point. Think of it, if you use an WOT switch and you go WOT at 3000rpm the flap is going to open at 3000rpm and stay open until you lift, but say you would be making more power with the flap closed until 4000rpm. You aren't going to go partial throttle until 4000RPM then go WOT because the gains from the "flapper" wont be enough to justify it lol.
to properly setup a window switch with that design you would want 2 dyno's. One run with the flap open, and one run with the flap closed. You overlay the two graphs and find the crossover point and that is where you want the flap to open . again that would be the most effective way.
IMHO It would be wise to build the flap part and dyno before you invest in all the electronics/etc because you might find the gains aren't enough to justify the cost/work
As to justifying the cost/work... ....I'm just doing this for fun, not because I think it's going to yield any kind of significant gains. I'm kind of tired of spending large amounts of time/money on the maxima and would rather save my money to get my classics out of storage and work on them (they're so much more fun to work on and drive)...these cheap, silly projects are just something to kill time until I see some other "real" mod I really want to get/can afford
#73
well the reason to dyno would be to set it up properly, but I see what you mean.
I learned dumping money on the small stuff makes it take longer to get the big stuff though
I learned dumping money on the small stuff makes it take longer to get the big stuff though
#74
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Originally Posted by MrGone
well the reason to dyno would be to set it up properly, but I see what you mean.
I learned dumping money on the small stuff makes it take longer to get the big stuff though
I learned dumping money on the small stuff makes it take longer to get the big stuff though
#76
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Originally Posted by MrGone
what are the classics?
which used to (and will again) look like this:
but currently look like this (partway through rebuild 7 years ago, but had to put it away for a while since I have no garage)...the other one was acquired more recently, but I don't have a pic of it on hand.
#79
Maybe it was discussed before (did not read the whole thread – too long) but here’s what came to my head:
You know those shift lights some people install on their race cars… The light turns on at a specific RPM which can be set at any time. So, if somehow, you could get this shift light to activate the motor which opens the flap, it would solve all the problems of deciding at what RPM it’s best to open the airbox. After that you can just drive around and tune for optimal performance.
Besides, it will make it much easier to readjust the RPM it should open at in case you install some other performance mod.
You know those shift lights some people install on their race cars… The light turns on at a specific RPM which can be set at any time. So, if somehow, you could get this shift light to activate the motor which opens the flap, it would solve all the problems of deciding at what RPM it’s best to open the airbox. After that you can just drive around and tune for optimal performance.
Besides, it will make it much easier to readjust the RPM it should open at in case you install some other performance mod.
#80
Irish: I've been doing a lot more thinking about it and I really think that the 4200 RPM or so when the secondary opens IS the best point to have your modified GAB open up. This is because the point where torque drops and HP kicks in happens to be the same point that Nissan decided to open up the "secondary" (for lack of a better term) on the intake. In order to get more torque, the engine reqires less air (sorta like an InJen losing low-end power: too much air). That majical point where the Hp curve crosses the torque curve is the same point where the engine begins to benefit most from more air. The switch we talked about on the seconday would, as far as I can figure, be the best, cheapest (mr. Home Depot) way to do what you want to.
Now, that said, I'll be ordering springs from Corey at some point in the near future. as of Saturday, I'll have a two car garage with a heater. Want to do it there?
(I'll keep my no-low-end-power Injen though. It's sparkly!).
Now, that said, I'll be ordering springs from Corey at some point in the near future. as of Saturday, I'll have a two car garage with a heater. Want to do it there?
(I'll keep my no-low-end-power Injen though. It's sparkly!).
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