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fuel economy (acetone)??

Old Nov 12, 2005 | 08:11 AM
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fuel economy (acetone)??

Anyone heard about this?


http://www.pureenergysystems.com/new...00069_Acetone/
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 08:26 AM
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interesting read. i'd be freaked out, but seems the articles are very strong on this thought. good job for one of your earlier posts. i'd like to see what others think.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 08:49 AM
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I heard about this a few weeks ago, although IIRC the idea has been around for a while. I haven't tried it, but it looks interesting....the key seems to be getting the correct amount of acetone to add. It's only a few oz. per tank of gas. Too much and your mileage will get worse, according to what I read.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 09:02 AM
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Hmm, my 1991 integra beater car could use a few MPG increase.....
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 09:39 AM
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would any of you consider throwing it in your car? i sure as hell know i could use some more MPG. i barely get 250mi. on the tank. and that's lucky. i live in stop and go traffic and live 5 miles from work, so i know why my mileage sucks.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 10:27 AM
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someone has definately got to try this on their old cars and see if they notice anything
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 11:43 AM
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I'll probably do it.....
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 11:44 AM
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1991 Integra, I'll start this on my next fill up.....3 oz per 10 gallons. I usually fill about 10 gallons so seems like i cant screw it up.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 12:06 PM
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I'd love to see this. This has been posted numerous times, but no one's ever gone through with it. But I wonder if it'll affect performance negatively.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 12:16 PM
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I've never tried this either though I've seen this before. Scientifically it works out; I think its atleast better than those magnet type attachments they sell that is supposed to do the same thing. I'd love to see someone try it and post results.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 12:54 PM
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I' m going to give it a shot. I will let ya'll know if it blows up.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 01:52 PM
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at first though, i think...

'there goes your injectors'

but i read the article and ill give it a try in the 91.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
at first though, i think...

'there goes your injectors'

but i read the article and ill give it a try in the 91.
please update. i was hesitant as wel then reading the WHOLE article (both links) i was like "damn these guys really did the research"...they went down to the science.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 09:10 PM
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Its a pretty interesting and convincing article. He did do some testing with soaking parts in acetone-gasoline mixtures and noticed no negative affects, although I'm kind of hesitant to say that for prolonged usage. Acetone is pretty abrasive and I'm not sure what effects it has on metals; but in such small concentrations, its effects might be negligible. If someone does try it, please give us a report....
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by PoLo
would any of you consider throwing it in your car? i sure as hell know i could use some more MPG. i barely get 250mi. on the tank. and that's lucky. i live in stop and go traffic and live 5 miles from work, so i know why my mileage sucks.
If you want better milage for your trip to work, take the bus. But that gas will be cheaper.
Old Nov 12, 2005 | 10:37 PM
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I always fill up with approx 10-11 gallons of 93 here in Chicagoland area- heavy gas means slower acceleration :P and I manage to get 260-280 miles out of 10-11 gallons of gasoline. I don't think I can improve my MPG any better, it does jump to around 32MPG when I cruise at steady 80MPH on the highway. I know for sure I don't wanna try any weird fuel combinations other than race gas on my jewel of an engine.
Old Nov 13, 2005 | 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by frankd121
Its a pretty interesting and convincing article. He did do some testing with soaking parts in acetone-gasoline mixtures and noticed no negative affects, although I'm kind of hesitant to say that for prolonged usage.

he soaked in different concentrations, for prolonged times -carburetor parts...

umm... hello, welcome to fuel injection. you couldnt disassemble a used injector and soak it? im a bit concerned about the injector parts, really. and hes got quite a disclaimer on his site. however, hes trying this in a neon, an OBDII neon at that, i would only think that a VERY prolonged usage would cause an injector, sending unit, or other failure.

i remember back in electronics engineering wet-etching circuit boards with sodium persulfate and using acetone to remove the sheild after coming out of the developer. didnt seem to hurt the copper, but then again, it was only one application, and rather quick. it was pure acetone, however and id hope copper and and brass or other metal parts inside my injectors will hold up.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackBIRDVQ
I always fill up with approx 10-11 gallons of 93 here in Chicagoland area- heavy gas means slower acceleration :P and I manage to get 260-280 miles out of 10-11 gallons of gasoline. I don't think I can improve my MPG any better, it does jump to around 32MPG when I cruise at steady 80MPH on the highway. I know for sure I don't wanna try any weird fuel combinations other than race gas on my jewel of an engine.

The car is rated to get 27 mpg pn highway by EPA and thats at around 55mph. how is it possible to get better mpg with additional 20 mph of drag? Just wondering?
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 05:38 AM
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I added ~ 3 oz this weekend along with 10G of 93 octane. It didn't blow up or do anything else out of the ordinary.
I will now start a record of my fuel economy manually and using the computer mpg as soon as I figure out how to work it. My car didn't come with a manual. Could someone clue me in on how to go about setting that up?
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by nicks79
The car is rated to get 27 mpg pn highway by EPA and thats at around 55mph. how is it possible to get better mpg with additional 20 mph of drag? Just wondering?
I don't know but I pull anywhere from 29-31 mpg if I stay off the pedal and have the cruise pinned at 80. And that's with an auto VQ35.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 10:51 AM
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Don't use the car's computer for this for this test as the computer is not very accurate. Do some math. Miles traveled divided by gallons used equals miles per gallon. Also do mixed driving and several tanks for better accuracy. Just my opinion.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by barristan
I added ~ 3 oz this weekend along with 10G of 93 octane. It didn't blow up or do anything else out of the ordinary.
I will now start a record of my fuel economy manually and using the computer mpg as soon as I figure out how to work it. My car didn't come with a manual. Could someone clue me in on how to go about setting that up?
Oooooh, somebody finally manned up and did this. Let us know how the car performs under all conditions (partial throttle, full throttle, etc.). Reset your trip screen and see how much you get out of the 10 gallons.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 03:17 PM
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Acetone won't affect metals: it's an organic chemical. It will, however, effect seals over a long period of time. I wouldn't use it. There's certain types of rubber and plastic that'll take it, but others that won't.

BTW: you'd be just as well off using the tornado. A little smoke here, a mirror there and presto! You have better fuel economy. I'd say any change would be due to different driving habits and basically be psycho-sematic.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GBAUER
Acetone won't affect metals: it's an organic chemical. It will, however, effect seals over a long period of time. I wouldn't use it. There's certain types of rubber and plastic that'll take it, but others that won't.

thx, thats good info. just curious, what plastics and rubbers will be affected by it, and would sucha small concentration have an affect?


why do you not believe the surface tension theory? youre an ME student, right? if power can be applied at a more desireable (advatageous), and predictable (consistent) crank angle on each power stroke, it would require less throttle opening to maintain a set speed or achieve a given rate of acceleration.

its not like hes profiting from us buying a $0.99 container of acetone. theres no motive for smoke and mirrors here.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
thx, thats good info. just curious, what plastics and rubbers will be affected by it, and would sucha small concentration have an affect?


why do you not believe the surface tension theory? youre an ME student, right? if power can be applied at a more desireable (advatageous), and predictable (consistent) crank angle on each power stroke, it would require less throttle opening to maintain a set speed or achieve a given rate of acceleration.

its not like hes profiting from us buying a $0.99 container of acetone. theres no motive for smoke and mirrors here.
The size of the particles is so minimal in the combustion chamber that any additional decrease in size won't matter. If anything, I could see this as a bad thing rather than good. If his theory is correct, the gas would burn too quickly and might cause a knock. Remember: timing advance (stock) means that the firing actually happens before the piston is in the top position. If you have early combustion, the engine will knock just like using lower grade gas. Same effect. That's where his flaw is.


BTW: ME grad, though I'm not an engineer by trade now.
Old Nov 14, 2005 | 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GBAUER
The size of the particles is so minimal in the combustion chamber that any additional decrease in size won't matter. If anything, I could see this as a bad thing rather than good. If his theory is correct, the gas would burn too quickly and might cause a knock. Remember: timing advance (stock) means that the firing actually happens before the piston is in the top position. If you have early combustion, the engine will knock just like using lower grade gas. Same effect. That's where his flaw is.


BTW: ME grad, though I'm not an engineer by trade now.
I'd have to agree with this, if you break up the particles too quickly it might result in knocking. I'm curious as to how much of the surface tension of gasoline droplets is reduced with such a small concentration of acetone. Its also interesting to note how he said the optimum fuel economy occurs with 87 octane fuels...
Old Nov 15, 2005 | 01:48 AM
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i think if that was true, then the gas companies would add it into their fuel
Old Nov 15, 2005 | 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mingo
i think if that was true, then the gas companies would add it into their fuel
Think hard about what you just said...
Old Nov 15, 2005 | 02:50 PM
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[QUOTE=NYPD-Arnold]Think hard about what you just said...


Old Nov 15, 2005 | 03:52 PM
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I'm getting my ol 83 Celica back up and runnign again. I'll drop a little in that gas tank and give it a shot.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo..._Fuel_Additive

Gives a list of different models of cars that people have tried this on... take a peek
Old Nov 15, 2005 | 08:41 PM
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I'm going to man up and try it, with my 01 Max. I'm selling car so I really don't care about prolonged damage. Also after studing the documents and experiements I noticed with 2oz/10gal there was barely visable swelling of the seals, when you skip every thrid tank of gas. It will be awhile since I'm not driving my max right now. Its at home and I'm driving my Pathy at school.
Old Nov 15, 2005 | 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximaum Driver
I'm getting my ol 83 Celica back up and runnign again. I'll drop a little in that gas tank and give it a shot.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo..._Fuel_Additive

Gives a list of different models of cars that people have tried this on... take a peek
You do know that anyone can add any info to Wikipedia ("peswiki" in this case) using the "Edit" tab, don't you? If I wanted to, I could go in and change the Nissan info and add that I got 80 mpg if I wanted and people would take it as gospel...
Old Nov 16, 2005 | 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GBAUER
The size of the particles is so minimal in the combustion chamber that any additional decrease in size won't matter. If anything, I could see this as a bad thing rather than good. If his theory is correct, the gas would burn too quickly and might cause a knock. Remember: timing advance (stock) means that the firing actually happens before the piston is in the top position. If you have early combustion, the engine will knock just like using lower grade gas. Same effect. That's where his flaw is.


BTW: ME grad, though I'm not an engineer by trade now.
I'm pretty sure if this were true, the knock sensor would detect it and the computer will retard the timing. I would think if it were a problem (for distributed timing engines) though it would have been brought up as this would be a serious issue.
Old Nov 17, 2005 | 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by GBAUER
The size of the particles is so minimal in the combustion chamber that any additional decrease in size won't matter.
initial size shouldnt really matter. even if ive got awesome atomization, if i were able to decrease the size of each droplet enough to double the surface area, it would result in a more smooth and complete burn in the chamber.


If anything, I could see this as a bad thing rather than good. If his theory is correct, the gas would burn too quickly and might cause a knock.
im not so sure that were looking for or acheiving a quicker burn here... the idea is a more complete burn, as well as a nice flame front to avoid MCP spiking, especially at other-than-optimum crank angles. youre familiar with flame fronts, kernels, and the whole combustion event, yea? the same thing is accomplished with pentroof, and hemispherical chambers, swirl ports and piston top shaping, quench areas, etc. theres a good drop in BSFC to be found in chamber design. due to its effects on the combustion event.

youre familiar with stratefied charge, yea? if the acetone were able to help support a leaner combustion event better, then it might be safe to say that is would have a positive effect on mileage.


Remember: timing advance (stock) means that the firing actually happens before the piston is in the top position. If you have early combustion, the engine will knock just like using lower grade gas. Same effect. That's where his flaw is.
the spark happens BTDC. MCP occurs well after, usually in the 17º-23º range.

BTW: ME grad, though I'm not an engineer by trade now.
good stuff. what do you do now, if you dont mind my asking?



and just to stir some shi-ite up and swirl it around some... heres an interesting counterpoint.


this is a TSB from GM.


Info - Fuel and Oil Additives - Facts and Myths/Maximizing Fuel Economy #05-00-89-072 - (Oct 24, 2005)
Fuel and Oil Additives - Facts and Myths/Maximizing Fuel Economy
2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks

2003-2006 HUMMER H2

2006 HUMMER H3

2005-2006 Saab 9-7X

Please direct this bulletin to the Service Manager, the Service Consultants, and the Sales Staff. A copy of this bulletin is encouraged to be given to your customer as it is written with the consumer in mind. You may also post this bulletin in your customer lounge or waiting area.

A Statement About Fuel Economy
As gasoline prices have increased, the consumer has shifted priorities to become increasingly concerned with fuel consumption. GM is presently proud to offer 20 cars in the U.S. with EPA highway estimates of at least 30 mpg. The information below contains reasonable and prudent advice for your dealership and the consumer to get the most from every gallon of gas.

The information below is presented in two easy to understand sections:

• What Not To Do: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products

• What to Do: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs

WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.

Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.


Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.

Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.

Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.

Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.

WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.


Vehicle Considerations:


• Tire Pressure - One of the major contributors to poor fuel economy are under inflated tires. Tires low on pressure create drag that the vehicle’s powertrain must overcome, wasting dollars in fuel. Always keep your tires inflated to the proper pressure as shown on the vehicle placard. This not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing your costs per mile.

• Air Filter - A vehicle that has a dirty air filter can’t efficiently draw air into the engine. This restriction forces the engine to expend energy to "breathe" wasting fuel in the process. Change recommendations are found in your vehicle Owner’s Manual.

• Proper Viscosity "Starburst" Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil in your engine. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Each Owner’s Manual contains information on the proper type of oil for your vehicle. Look for the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back label. If you are in doubt, stop by your dealer for an oil change, and any other services required. Most current GM vehicles are equipped with oil life monitors to further assist on the "when" to change your oil. (Aveo/Wave/Optra/Epica currently do not have oil life monitors).
Notice: GM Vehicles DO NOT require additional engine oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of your vehicles New Car Warranty.


• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.


Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.


Notice: E85 FUELS: Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues, service engine soon indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Corporate Bulletin Number 05-06-04-035 for additional information.


• Use the Recommended Grade (Octane) Fuel Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that only required regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases refer to your owners manual and ONLY use the octane rated fuel recommended for your vehicle.
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.



• Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - Is the Check Engine/SES light on? When this light is on, the vehicles On-Board diagnostics computer has noticed that something is wrong. GM vehicles have many sensors that the computer uses to both control and sense actual fuel usage. When the computer lights the Check Engine/SES light it has lost some ability to run efficiently. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.

• Spark Plugs - Even though current GM vehicles have 160,000 km (100,000 mi) service intervals for spark plugs if your vehicle is at that point in it's life, have the spark plugs changed to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation.


Changes In Driving Habits:


• Slow Down, Drive Smoothly - Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill in town and high cruising speeds on the interstates. While the optimum MPG for highway cruising speed varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse. If your vehicle is equipped with a Driver Information Center that displays Instant Fuel Economy, select that read out and vary your cruising speed while on the highway. The display will change continuously with uphill and downhill sections but you should quickly be able to identify on level ground the speed range that your vehicle does the best in.

• Empty Your Trunk - Avoid leaving unnecessary items in your trunk. It takes power to move increased weight and that means more gasoline consumption and reduced performance. While the change may be slight, multiplied by thousands of miles, it all adds up.

• Avoid Extended Idling - There is no need to idle your engine till it reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.

• Combine Trips - Your vehicle uses much more fuel when the engine is cold. This is especially true in the winter months when the engine will take the longest to warm up. Combine errands or trips so that the vehicle only needs to warm up once to encompass many different stops.
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