The Great Intake Debate....
02-03-2007, 12:34 PM
#1
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The Great Intake Debate....
Its long been debated which intake is better for your Max, and which is a CAI/WAI..........but after doing a bit of research I found this
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=195391
no modifications other than a MagnaFlow Street Series muffler. dyno'd 02' Maxima SE w/6 speed tranny, in the following conditions (in order from air intake to throttle body):
CAI: Monsterflow 3.25" filter -> PR CAI lower tubing -> MAF -> PR CAI upper tubing -> TB
WAI: Monsterflow 3.25" filter -> MAF -> PR CAI upper tubing -> TB
Stock: Stock airbox scoop -> K&N Drop-In Filter -> Stock airbox exit -> MAF -> Stock upper tubing/assembly -> TB
RESULTS:
The Stock intake produced:
208.61 HP and 234.92 ft/lbs Torque
The CAI intake produced:
209.08 HP and 237.09 ft/lbs Torque
The WAI intake produced:
213.67 HP and 240.03 ft/lbs Torque
So the clear winner, by a decent margin, is the WAI.
Am I missing something here???
Doesn't the WAI actually produce bettter numbers across the board?
02-03-2007, 12:39 PM
#2
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=411340
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=376123
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=477611
Taking IAT data and MAF readings is also a good way to see what intake is good for what.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=376123
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=477611
Taking IAT data and MAF readings is also a good way to see what intake is good for what.
02-03-2007, 12:42 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by NmexMAX
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=411340
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=376123
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=477611
Taking IAT data and MAF readings is also a good way to see what intake is good for what.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=376123
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=477611
Taking IAT data and MAF readings is also a good way to see what intake is good for what.
That doesnt give anyone a reason to dismiss the data above....does it?
`In fact, it simply adds more "fuel to fire", on this debate!
02-03-2007, 01:31 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by NmexMAX
Do what works best with your car, tune the A/F accordingly, and call it good.
Ah....c'mon man...
A little debate never hurt anyone~
02-03-2007, 04:01 PM
#7
I applaud you for actually doing some research, but numbers only tell part of the story....
dyno discussion of intakes specifically is bogus, since the "WAI" is sucking cooler air at a dyno than on the road, since at dynos the hood is open during pulls. At a dyno, the WAI and true CAI are pulling basically the same temperature of air OUTSIDE the engine bay (so, at a dyno, the WAI is really a CAI). On the road, the WAI is sucking super-hot air from under the CLOSED hood. While the CAI is pulling fresh outside air. This is especially apparent on cooler days.
Dynos are more effective for mods that are not as dependent on the specific heat of the filter intake area (headers, exhaust, etc)
The real comparison is if you've actually HAD all of them, and have long-term experience using each setup. I have.
GAB: slight low-end loss, ok high-end gains
Short-ram with Apexi filter (the best flowing): significant low-end loss, good high-end gains
PR full intake: low end about the same as stock, high end good gains.
PR lower tube + stock midpipe/resonator: good gains all the way through.
Granted this is the "butt dyno," but the difference between the PR setup and a short-ram is crystal clear, especially in the low end. And the were all used in various weather (cold, hot, rain, snow) so I have a good long-term opinion of them.
Also, peak WHP numbers are insignificant. Short-rams gain the most at the very top of the range IMO. Who the hell drives around with their revs at 6000+rpm all the time? Not me.
PR setup absolutely CRUSHES the short-ram or GAB or stock from a stop through midrange....where it really matters.
dyno discussion of intakes specifically is bogus, since the "WAI" is sucking cooler air at a dyno than on the road, since at dynos the hood is open during pulls. At a dyno, the WAI and true CAI are pulling basically the same temperature of air OUTSIDE the engine bay (so, at a dyno, the WAI is really a CAI). On the road, the WAI is sucking super-hot air from under the CLOSED hood. While the CAI is pulling fresh outside air. This is especially apparent on cooler days.
Dynos are more effective for mods that are not as dependent on the specific heat of the filter intake area (headers, exhaust, etc)
The real comparison is if you've actually HAD all of them, and have long-term experience using each setup. I have.
GAB: slight low-end loss, ok high-end gains
Short-ram with Apexi filter (the best flowing): significant low-end loss, good high-end gains
PR full intake: low end about the same as stock, high end good gains.
PR lower tube + stock midpipe/resonator: good gains all the way through.
Granted this is the "butt dyno," but the difference between the PR setup and a short-ram is crystal clear, especially in the low end. And the were all used in various weather (cold, hot, rain, snow) so I have a good long-term opinion of them.
Also, peak WHP numbers are insignificant. Short-rams gain the most at the very top of the range IMO. Who the hell drives around with their revs at 6000+rpm all the time? Not me.
PR setup absolutely CRUSHES the short-ram or GAB or stock from a stop through midrange....where it really matters.
02-03-2007, 04:22 PM
#8
Originally Posted by MaximumPower01
Its long been debated which intake is better for your Max, and which is a CAI/WAI..........but after doing a bit of research I found this
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=195391
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=195391
02-03-2007, 04:54 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by Puppetmaster
If you read the FAQs and How-Tos, you would have found that thread a lot quicker.
One can only read so much in one day, before this occurs
In due time, my friend...soakin' it all up~
ps - My wife thinks im spendin' too much time with my car....she's beginning to worry a bit...lol
02-03-2007, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by irish44j
dyno discussion of intakes specifically is bogus, since the "WAI" is sucking cooler air at a dyno than on the road, since at dynos the hood is open during pulls. At a dyno, the WAI and true CAI are pulling basically the same temperature of air OUTSIDE the engine bay (so, at a dyno, the WAI is really a CAI). On the road, the WAI is sucking super-hot air from under the CLOSED hood. While the CAI is pulling fresh outside air. This is especially apparent on cooler days.
Dynos are more effective for mods that are not as dependent on the specific heat of the filter intake area (headers, exhaust, etc)
Dynos are more effective for mods that are not as dependent on the specific heat of the filter intake area (headers, exhaust, etc)
Nice post man...and I agree with most of what you're sayin, however, that theory has technically never been proven, (atleast to my knowledge...)....as this one above has...
With that in mind, shouldnt these numbers technically be the guideline for the WAI/CAI comparisons?
Also, Has anyone ever dynoed an Injen intake with the hood closed, compared to a berk/pr intake? Do you think it would really make a significant difference, with the hood closed, and the car running at full operating temp?
02-03-2007, 07:55 PM
#11
Originally Posted by MaximumPower01
Nice post man...and I agree with most of what you're sayin, however, that theory has technically never been proven, (atleast to my knowledge...)....as this one above has...
With that in mind, shouldnt these numbers technically be the guideline for the WAI/CAI comparisons?
Also, Has anyone ever dynoed an Injen intake with the hood closed, compared to a berk/pr intake? Do you think it would really make a significant difference, with the hood closed, and the car running at full operating temp?
With that in mind, shouldnt these numbers technically be the guideline for the WAI/CAI comparisons?
Also, Has anyone ever dynoed an Injen intake with the hood closed, compared to a berk/pr intake? Do you think it would really make a significant difference, with the hood closed, and the car running at full operating temp?
It's pretty much universally accepted that (for the Maxima) Injen intakes suck in terms of performance, although they do look very nice.
There have been several threads over the years where people have measured underhood temperatures while the car is on the road (with a remote digital thermometer), in traffic, etc. And it gets fairly warm under there compared to the outside temperature.
And it's a well known engineering fact that engines run more efficiently with cooler intake air (and lower humidity).
Dynos.....people put too much credence in them. They are not accurate in a scientific sense as there are too many variables. And when looking at "peak whp and peak wtq" you're only looking at a small section of the powerband (in my opinion, a section for whp that is largely irrelevant).
but go ahead and get an Injen. You'll want to go back to stock soon after
02-03-2007, 07:58 PM
#12
keep in mind also that intakes aer "breathing mods" and have different effects paired with other "breathing mods" like ypipe, exhaust, headers, and so on.
The intake results in maximum gains when the car has a complete breathing system, including ypipe/headers and free-flowing exhaust.
one other note: I've seen dynos claiming up to 18whp gains from intakes alone on a maxima (wish I remembered where it was). Goes to show that you can't always believe what you see, even if it's a number.
The intake results in maximum gains when the car has a complete breathing system, including ypipe/headers and free-flowing exhaust.
one other note: I've seen dynos claiming up to 18whp gains from intakes alone on a maxima (wish I remembered where it was). Goes to show that you can't always believe what you see, even if it's a number.
02-04-2007, 12:00 AM
#15
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irish good writeup. but i want to know why the injen cai sucks so much. im about to pick one up for 40 bucks...but why is it ****ty.
02-04-2007, 12:54 AM
#16
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I got an injen and really, I just like the look. It's actually loud in the wrong way though. I dont like the sound it makes. Almost considering to trade someone for their stock intake
02-04-2007, 02:10 AM
#17
Please forgive my noobieness irish and all, but what is the PR setup? And by asking this I'm not doubting irish's post....I know nothing on CAI/WAI/PR. But if PR setups are so good, why doesn't everyone do them? Do the CAIs & WAIs really have that different of application? Or do people just like shiny stuff under the hood?
02-04-2007, 06:29 AM
#18
PR is out of buisness... they dont make intakes any more,.. they are impossible to find,.. if you want one your best bet is going to be to wait and wait and wait hopelessly or offer irish like 500 bucks and mayb he will give u his
02-04-2007, 07:18 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by irish44j
when I'm referring to "WAI" I'm referring to short-ram intakes (Berk, Frankencar, Monsterflow, etc)
Shouldnt Injen be included in this category, since we constantly refer to it as such?
Originally Posted by irish44j
It's pretty much universally accepted that (for the Maxima) Injen intakes suck in terms of performance, although they do look very nice.
I disagree completely.....I bought my injen over 5 months ago, and its been runnin' strong since.....Definitely a noticeable gain, along with a great sound......
I know this proves nothing, as its all just hear-say....but so is the comment(s) above, that you made....
Like I told Nmex before, I truely believe people are improperly installing the Injen intake, as I have read alot of reviews/threads... where people actually say the Injen "robbed them of power"....
Well......I say thats total b.s, imo.......cause personally, I think most of them just shove the Cone filter up too high, shutting off the intake altogether and not allowing the air to pass freely...(I did it once and it ran like chit)
All you have to do is just catch the lip of the filter to the tip of the pipeing, by about an inch/inch and a half...then tighten......
If you shove it all the way up, like im sure most do, obviously you'll be robbed of HP....
Anyways, my Injen Intake runs great, and as you can see in the "Seafoam vid", it doesnt sound too bad either....
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=508545
The only thing I would agree with about the INjen, is the price.....as I admit, it's way too high compared to others..
Originally Posted by irish44j
There have been several threads over the years where people have measured underhood temperatures while the car is on the road (with a remote digital thermometer), in traffic, etc. And it gets fairly warm under there compared to the outside temperature.
And it's a well known engineering fact that engines run more efficiently with cooler intake air (and lower humidity).
Dynos.....people put too much credence in them. They are not accurate in a scientific sense as there are too many variables. And when looking at "peak whp and peak wtq" you're only looking at a small section of the powerband (in my opinion, a section for whp that is largely irrelevant).
And it's a well known engineering fact that engines run more efficiently with cooler intake air (and lower humidity).
Dynos.....people put too much credence in them. They are not accurate in a scientific sense as there are too many variables. And when looking at "peak whp and peak wtq" you're only looking at a small section of the powerband (in my opinion, a section for whp that is largely irrelevant).
I understand what you're sayin man, and it does makes sense...however, you cant neccessarily discount the Dyno's althogether, as they are one of the closest forms of measurement, that we have...
I'd still like to see a dyno comparison of the Injen/short-ram's/and Berk with the hood close, and full operating temp......
02-04-2007, 07:37 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by irish44j
unubscribing
This thread makes about as much sense as
This thread makes about as much sense as
So far nothings been said other than hearsay (what you've heard, and what you've read).....AND we have no scientific data to back those claims....(other than the dyno sheets).....
This is why I brought it up in the first place...
.
02-04-2007, 08:19 AM
#22
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I have an impractical yet somewhat more pertinent solution for this intake debate. How about driving the max around till its at operating temp then taking it to the track and running several passes with different intakes?
02-04-2007, 08:24 AM
#23
short answer: look at where the Injen filter location is: right behind the radiator. What does the radiator do? Uses outside air to cool the engine coolant. Where does the air go once it is all heated up after cooling the coolant? Through the radiator, and directly into the Injen intake.
basically, the Injen sucks even hotter air in than a short-ram.
In any case, when I said above i was unsubscribing, I was serious. This thread will not prove or determine anything new that 500 intake threads before it have not. I can argue my points, you argue yours.
I can only speak from two things:
1. My personal experience
2. way way way way too many hours here on the org over the last 4 years readings other peoples' personal experiences.
I'm just saving some of you n00bies the trouble of reading all 500 intake threads, by summing it up concisely into what "most" (not all) people who have actually used these intakes have cumulatively said about them:
- The PR/Cattman "true CAI" is the best overall setup for power in the entire band. By the way, it is also quieter than a short ram or injen....
- short-rams are the best compromise for those who don't want to drill a hole in their fender (or those who can't find a PR/Cattman CAI).
- Injens result in the greatest low-end losses and good upper-end gains, but do look good and sound good, in most peoples opinion.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.......
basically, the Injen sucks even hotter air in than a short-ram.
In any case, when I said above i was unsubscribing, I was serious. This thread will not prove or determine anything new that 500 intake threads before it have not. I can argue my points, you argue yours.
I can only speak from two things:
1. My personal experience
2. way way way way too many hours here on the org over the last 4 years readings other peoples' personal experiences.
I'm just saving some of you n00bies the trouble of reading all 500 intake threads, by summing it up concisely into what "most" (not all) people who have actually used these intakes have cumulatively said about them:
- The PR/Cattman "true CAI" is the best overall setup for power in the entire band. By the way, it is also quieter than a short ram or injen....
- short-rams are the best compromise for those who don't want to drill a hole in their fender (or those who can't find a PR/Cattman CAI).
- Injens result in the greatest low-end losses and good upper-end gains, but do look good and sound good, in most peoples opinion.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.......
02-04-2007, 08:27 AM
#24
Originally Posted by Domf3
I have an impractical yet somewhat more pertinent solution for this intake debate. How about driving the max around till its at operating temp then taking it to the track and running several passes with different intakes?
oh, and
02-04-2007, 10:57 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by irish44j
short answer: look at where the Injen filter location is: right behind the radiator. What does the radiator do? Uses outside air to cool the engine coolant. Where does the air go once it is all heated up after cooling the coolant? Through the radiator, and directly into the Injen intake.
basically, the Injen sucks even hotter air in than a short-ram........
basically, the Injen sucks even hotter air in than a short-ram........
I agree with what you're sayin', Irish, and I respect the info you've brought forward here and other threads............but.....I still have to take into account the numbers originally posted in the dyno...
(and yeah, I understand your weariness on the dyno reads, but thats really all we have to go with, imho)
The Stock intake produced:
208.61 HP and 234.92 ft/lbs Torque
The CAI intake produced:
209.08 HP and 237.09 ft/lbs Torque
The WAI intake produced:
213.67 HP and 240.03 ft/lbs Torque
Originally Posted by irish44j
In any case, when I said above i was unsubscribing, I was serious. This thread will not prove or determine anything new that 500 intake threads before it have not. I can argue my points, you argue yours.
I can only speak from two things:
1. My personal experience
2. way way way way too many hours here on the org over the last 4 years readings other peoples' personal experiences........
I can only speak from two things:
1. My personal experience
2. way way way way too many hours here on the org over the last 4 years readings other peoples' personal experiences........
I can respect that.....really....but Im just gonna have to agree to disagree, until proven otherwise.......
No personal attack on you or what you're saying, I just feel like the whole debate should be summed up in more scientific way, besides "the Injen's suck in terms of performance", and CAI's are better than WAI's, ect ect...
When obviously someone has taken the time to prove otherwise....
Just my .02 cents~
ps - Go Bears!
02-04-2007, 11:55 AM
#26
Originally Posted by MaximumPower01
When obviously someone has taken the time to prove otherwise....
Now, if the hood was closed (which I doubt, since dynos leave the hood open for maximum gains and minimum heat soak).......then, we have another story altogether.
What he really tested was:
- Stock
- CAI with a long scoop
- CAI with a short ram.
no WAI was tested if the hood was open.
I'm not arguing AT ALL that a WAI cannot get same/better gains at fuel cut than a CAI can. My WAI (Frankencar/Apexi) was just as powerful at fuel cut/redline as my CAI. My complaint with the WAI was the power loss/bogging under about 4k rpms (off the line)....which does NOT happen with a true CAI.
Unless we can see the runfiles/graphs though, we'll never know if the dyno shows this low-end loss for the WAI vs. CAI.
IMO, people put too much credence in peak whp (and, to a lesser extent, peak tq). Most of us daily drive with the revs <4000 rpm, so the low-end power/tq is what should be more important. The problem is, it doesn't sound cool to say "my car puts down 135whp/144wtq at 3700rpm"
One other thing I would have liked him to try is my setup: upper stock resonator/midpipe with PR lower pipe. I feel that this setup provides more "standing power/tq" than the "complete PR CAI (mid+lower pipe).
but that's another story for another day...
btw, I have dynoed a couple times. Unfortunately, the first time I had a broken VIAS (about 170whp/200tq!) and the second time I only got one run (about 200whp/200tq)....so I don't have any worthwhile numbers to actually show and tell with.
02-04-2007, 12:54 PM
#28
I LOVE MY BERK INTAKE W/APEXi FILTER!!!!
I had a Injen and they suck! At my company's summer picnic (held at Portland International Raceway) it was 98 degrees out, I made a pass down the track and my car was acting funny. I noticed my temp guage, and it was reading a little hotter then normal, nothing crazy (so I let off and took it easy). When I got back to the pits I popped the hood to see whats up and I could not even touch my Injen Intake it was so hot. I removed the lower piece that connected to my block went home and put my stock air box on till I could get a new intake.
I had a Injen and they suck! At my company's summer picnic (held at Portland International Raceway) it was 98 degrees out, I made a pass down the track and my car was acting funny. I noticed my temp guage, and it was reading a little hotter then normal, nothing crazy (so I let off and took it easy). When I got back to the pits I popped the hood to see whats up and I could not even touch my Injen Intake it was so hot. I removed the lower piece that connected to my block went home and put my stock air box on till I could get a new intake.
02-04-2007, 01:10 PM
#29
This information is as useful as knowing the maximum power your car CAN produce...
Some questions:
do you have RPM/HP and RPM/ft-lbs graphs? That will really provide insight as to where this power is really available. For everyday driving would it even be worth spending all this money on these pieces of plastic or metal?
Its long been debated which intake is better for your Max, and which is a CAI/WAI..........but after doing a bit of research I found this
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=195391
no modifications other than a MagnaFlow Street Series muffler. dyno'd 02' Maxima SE w/6 speed tranny, in the following conditions (in order from air intake to throttle body):
CAI: Monsterflow 3.25" filter -> PR CAI lower tubing -> MAF -> PR CAI upper tubing -> TB
WAI: Monsterflow 3.25" filter -> MAF -> PR CAI upper tubing -> TB
Stock: Stock airbox scoop -> K&N Drop-In Filter -> Stock airbox exit -> MAF -> Stock upper tubing/assembly -> TB
RESULTS:
The Stock intake produced:
208.61 HP and 234.92 ft/lbs Torque
The CAI intake produced:
209.08 HP and 237.09 ft/lbs Torque
The WAI intake produced:
213.67 HP and 240.03 ft/lbs Torque
So the clear winner, by a decent margin, is the WAI.
Am I missing something here???
Doesn't the WAI actually produce bettter numbers across the board?
Some questions:
do you have RPM/HP and RPM/ft-lbs graphs? That will really provide insight as to where this power is really available. For everyday driving would it even be worth spending all this money on these pieces of plastic or metal?
Originally Posted by MaximumPower01
Its long been debated which intake is better for your Max, and which is a CAI/WAI..........but after doing a bit of research I found this
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=195391
no modifications other than a MagnaFlow Street Series muffler. dyno'd 02' Maxima SE w/6 speed tranny, in the following conditions (in order from air intake to throttle body):
CAI: Monsterflow 3.25" filter -> PR CAI lower tubing -> MAF -> PR CAI upper tubing -> TB
WAI: Monsterflow 3.25" filter -> MAF -> PR CAI upper tubing -> TB
Stock: Stock airbox scoop -> K&N Drop-In Filter -> Stock airbox exit -> MAF -> Stock upper tubing/assembly -> TB
RESULTS:
The Stock intake produced:
208.61 HP and 234.92 ft/lbs Torque
The CAI intake produced:
209.08 HP and 237.09 ft/lbs Torque
The WAI intake produced:
213.67 HP and 240.03 ft/lbs Torque
So the clear winner, by a decent margin, is the WAI.
Am I missing something here???
Doesn't the WAI actually produce bettter numbers across the board?
02-04-2007, 05:35 PM
#32
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why dont people try heat wrapping the intake if its soo hot?
02-04-2007, 08:04 PM
#35
Originally Posted by absoundlab
whats a wai?
Originally Posted by MaxBoost925
um. who has more experience on this forum cousin?
Originally Posted by absoundlab
umm I would say I do.
im sorry you don't know what you are doing.
im sorry you don't know what you are doing.
02-04-2007, 08:33 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by SEmy2K2go
lmao anyway back to the debate!!!
personally with a little bit of modifying i think the injen could perform better.
02-04-2007, 08:35 PM
#37
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btw i know this is sorta off the subject but im bringing my car to the dealer soon to get a new motor since my **** likes to drink oil. will having an intake on it at the time i bring it to them make them not work on it?
No it couldn't.
to EVERYTHING Josh has said.