soundmike

iTrader: (24)

This is not a flame war or anything. I'm just curious, why are these cars being compared to one another at least from a performance stand-point?

Given the GTP is one fast car, isn't is also FI through an SC?

From what i read in several forums it seems people are raving on how the stock GTP is faster than the stock Maxima.

Wouldn't it be a valid argument to say, "Well, put an SC on a Maxima and let's see who's faster" - that definitely evens out the odds

What do you think?

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

i think kev should close this post because it has no relevance..

Run what you brung..

SteVTEC

Why not compare?

Both have 4 doors (you can get a GTP coupe, though)
Both makes lots of power, although in very different ways.
Both are pretty fast.

I just hate it when haters come and ruin the discussions and intelligent debates/comparisons, etc...

soundmike

iTrader: (24)

Anyway, Steve. I agree with you on the conditions you brought up but from a performance standpoint shouldn't it be that:

GTP and Max makes a lot of power but the GTP does it through Force Induction and though it's considered stock (from the factory) it is still a modified engine (from NA to FI through an SC)

The Max on the other hand seems to be NA/stock from the factory and with an SC would make a better comparison for the SC GTP.

I'm not sure if i'm explaining it right. But whoever gets my drift am i right in this theory?

SteVTEC

You're forgetting about the huge displacement gap. The L67 (I think that's the engine code) is a 3.8L engine vs. the VQ30DE which is only 3.0L.

A better comparison would be between the VQ35DE (3.5L) and the L67.

VQ35DE, 3.5L V6, 255HP, aluminum block and heads, DOHC 24-valve, variable valve timing, dual-staged intake manifold, naturally aspirated.

L67: 3.8L V6, 240HP, iron block and heads, pushrod-OHV 12-valve, force-fed via a supercharger.

The VQ35DE makes more power than the blown L67 even though it's still smaller in size than the GM "big iron" The L67 will still blow away the VQ35 on the start though.

Would this be a better comparison??

SCCA Solo2

I like comparing the Grand Prix GT vs. the Maxima. both NA. both FWD V6s. one has 3.8L and the other has a 3.0L. Now who wins?

Could go by trim levels.

Compare a Grand Prix SE to a Maxima GXE... :O

stock for stock, the Maxima and GTP are even. 0-60, I would give it to the GTP to take the lead, after that...

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Just don't let this "discussion" get out of hand.

SteVTEC

The SE has the 3.1 engine with only 170 HP or so. I think it'd be better to compare that model to the Altima 2.5x than the Maxima

soundmike

iTrader: (24)

Steve, those are good points. I guess i'm just comparing the way people describe the GTP vs. the Max. I think it also has something to do with how i describe stock. For me "stock" means Naturally aspirated. I guess i'm flawed on my basis for such an argument.

SCCA, i wouldn't call the GTP NA in any respect though. It does have an SC

And like Steve mentioned, i think a stock 3.5L Max would make a worthy opponent to the stock 3.8L GTP at the track.

Kev, thanks

SteVTEC

No matter how you look at it, an engine is still just an air pump, and there are lots of different ways to pump air. Spin a small engine fast (Honda), spin a big engine slow (American), or spin a medium sized engine very efficiently with hi-tech stuff such as multi-valve designs with variable valve timing and variable intake manifolds (Japanese and German in general.) Or you can crank up the power on any of the above methods with forced induction from a turbo or supercharger.

But no matter which way you look at it, horsepower is still horsepower, and there are a lot of different ways to make it. If you want 240HP you can spin a tiny 2.0L F20C S2000 engine at 8300rpm (9000rpm redline), or you can spin a much larger GM L67 3.8L "blown" engine at 5500rpm, or you can take the middle ground and take a VQ35DE (Altima version). All of those engines make 240HP, and all of them do it in very very different ways.

The F20C will rule the highend because of the lightweight engine with amazing volumetric efficiency, the L67 will rule the low-end because of it's superior low-end torque from its blower and larger displacement, and the VQ35 will rule all ground in between because of its balance between good low-end and high-end power.

So you can say it's not fair to compare an SC'ed engine to an NA'ed one, but it's just another way of making power, and each way has various advantages and disadvantages

Bags

iTrader: (3)

Soundmike I have a question for you.

BTW I think I am understanding how your thinking is. I thought that a GTP was in the same class, FI or not.

So do you think the CL type s and/or TL type s is in the same class as a 2000 OR 2002 maxima?

The reason I am asking is I would think they are in the same class as a 2000 OR a 2002 maxima , just different options.

Again I asked soundmike , but if anybody can help me here I would be very happy.

Stevtec- so are you comparing motors not the class? IE 4 door altima to a 2 door GTI hatchback? If I am like way out in left field someone tell me and I will delete this post and try again.

SteVTEC

I think the Grand Prix, Maxima, Accord, Camry, new Altima, Passat, etc, all fall into the "mid-sized family sedan" class of car.

IMO, the TL/CL, TL/CL Type-S, Infiniti I30/35, Lexus ES300, Audi A6, are all "entry luxury" class cars.

All of the mentioned luxury cars, btw, are all based off of their mid-sized family sedan siblings...(Accord/TL/CL, Maxima/I30/35, Passat/A4/A6, ES300/Camry)

In the case of Nissan/Infiniti the line isn't always well-defined, but it is more so in Honda/Acura products, IMO

Bags

iTrader: (3)

I do agree with the above statement!!!

and i agree that the I30 compares better to the tl than a maxima.

This is your quote BTW "I think the Grand Prix, Maxima, Accord, Camry, new Altima, Passat, etc, all fall into the "mid-sized family sedan" class of car. "

I like this Blanket Statement better than my orginal thought/statement.

OK , thanks for your help.

SCCA Solo2

Re-read my post again.

RussMaxManiac

I would defintely not say that a GTP would kill us off the line, because I doubt it will. I have ran a few off the line and they are even till we are really moving then they start to pass me. But like I said, they barely beat me. And I have the 3.0 with just a intake. The GTP and 3.5 won't be a comparison, the auto and 6spd will kill it.

SteVTEC

If you've got a stick shift and can launch well that can pretty much make up for any low-end torque deficit so I believe you there.

The L67 makes about 35 lb-ft more torque, and at a lower RPM than the VQ35 so auto vs auto I think a GTP would still have a slight edge, but after that the VQ35 would take over (better top end). VQ35/stick vs L67/auto, well, I think the VQ35 will own

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

but I've heard that the the GTP's iron block is lighter than the maxima's VQ, true?

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

don't they run like 1.9 to 2.0 in 60 foot time @ track with stock tires?

SteVTEC

Iron is heavier than aluminum, and the GM 3.8 is larger in displacement. If it really was lighter it would have to have a significantly smaller and more compact block design, but I'm not sure of the specifics on that...

Cars with the GM 3800 engine are generally around 100-200lb or so heavier than equivalent cars (imports) with 3.0L aluminum block/head engines at least from what I've noticed... I've always assumed that a good chunk of that extra weight was because of the larger/iron engine in the GM cars, but maybe I'm wrong??

SteVTEC

I think that's with a smaller SC pulley + other mods. But stock those things can whip out some nasty 60' times - low-end torque gets those things moving in a hurry - that's what the 3800 engine is famous for, and then add in a blower and it's even better...

philpoe

iTrader: (4)

One of the reasons I think that this comparison is "natural" is that if you're looking for a "performance" sedan, these 2 are very closely matched in terms of features (on paper) and they cost nearly the same.
A similarly equipped GTP and Max SE are within $1000 of each other if I'm not mistaken.

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

my family was as going to buy a GTP 3 yrs ago but the deal did not work out, it was a GTP with no option tahts $1000 more than a maxima GLE. So we ended up with a 99 maxima. I did a lot of research on them (its been 3 yrs... I don't remember much now...) and I think I saw the engine weight comparison thing on edmunds fourms, reason GTP is ligher is they don't have as much valves or something like that... I could be wrong though

PhatGuy

I disagree on this point. I have run a few GTP on the highway and pulled on them like crazy when I hit 4th. Into my 5th gear and they drop way back...

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

they're like speed limited to 110mph

SteVTEC

I used to post on those Edmunds.com forums. Damn...there was just way too much misinformation there and they all bandwagoned the moment someone posted a load of crap regardless of how much reason anyone posted so I stopped going there

12 valves vs. 24 valves?? Valves don't weight more than a few ounces, if even that. The VQ would have 4 cams instead of 1 in the L67, but the L67 also has 12 pushrods, which also weigh something. It probably wouldn't amount to very much difference.

99 GLE: 3085 lb
99 GTP: 3414 lb

One of the big reasons for aluminum block/head engines is because of tremendous weight savings vs an iron block/head engine. Iron engines are stronger and better for boost (Supra TT 2JZ-GTE engine can handle upwards of 1000HP on stock internals), but most cars would never need that, so they go aluminum and take the weight savings which gives better performance and mileage.

I highly doubt an iron block/head 3.8L engine is lighter than either the VQ30 or VQ35 engines. Isn't one of the fundamental design philosophies behind the VQ engine design lighter weight??

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

I forgot to say one thing, those GTP are really crazy off the line, their first gear is really high, it ends around 50mph and they still manage to jump off the line so quickly

SteVTEC

you don't need a short first gear to launch fast when you have 280 lb-ft of torque available just above the stall speed of the torque converter. American "big iron" low-end torque at its finest

SCCA Solo2

How are you disagreeing? I clearly stated the GTP would work a 00-01 Max from 0-60mph, then I implied the Maxima should take the GTP after 60mph?

where's the disagreement?

sleepur

i saw two modded gtp's on friday at the track. They had much, much larger exhausts, and smaller pulleys for their SC. I am not a big fan, but they were quick. One both ran real close to 14.0/14.1 dont remember the mph. pretty quick

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

My 2 cents;

comparing the VQ3.0 to the VE3.0 from 92-94 Maxima SEs would be a textbook example of showing up the differences between iron and aluminum block engines

DW

2k2se6spd

I think the 2002 is a pretty even matchup for the sedan autos.

The GTP makes 240 HP and 280 T, while the Maxima makes 255 HP and 246 T. So, the GTP makes 6% less HP and 14% more torque at a little lower RPM (3200 vs. 4400).

However, the GTP weighs in at 3559 lbs.(3494 for the coupe), while the Maxima weighs in around 3260 - 9% less. So I think the autos will be comparable.

However, the 2002 6 spd. vs. a GTP isn't even funny. And the launch shouldn't be all that different between the 2 cars, they are both FWD.

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

Another 2 cents;

The GTP is built with american philosophy of killer 1/4 miles, and the rest, well, whatever. In the land of 55 mph speed limits, performance on the highway is not their top priority. So, the GTP has a killer take off, but the engine and gearing show their "short-slightedness" up top, so to speak. The German and Japanese tend be build good all round performers.

Also, to add another point about weight savings, the number of valves may not make a significant difference between the 2 valve GTP and the 4 valve Maxima, but the size of the head probably does. A 4 valve head is quite a bit bigger than a 2 valve head. The 4 valve head has to support the cams, lifters, etc, and be strong enough to deal with all the high speed rotational inertia your head generates when you blast up to 7000 rpm in your VQ!

DW

SteVTEC

good point on the head size, DW - never thought of that

PrinzII

iTrader: (2)

This same 3800 V6 is used in a wider variety of cars that are naturally aspirated. Grand Prix GTs get this motor standard while Grand Prix SEs get it as an option.

This motor naturally aspirated puts out 225 hp in FWD applications or Camaro applications. The Roots blower on a GTP is running at a moderate psi hence the 15hp gain.

Technically, GM used the same principle of the T-Bird Super Coupe (3.8 L V6, Roots Blower) but the difference between the 2 is that the T-Bird was slightly heavier and the T-Bird was rear wheel drive.

SteVTEC

correction, the 3800 NA makes 200HP and 225T for a gain of 40HP and 55T on the blower

Tweekt_GTP

I'll try to clear things up...I am a GTP owner but I believe in cordiality and fairness so I'll just be honest (besides there are always exceptions). Off the line torque is what matters, the GTP has it there, however I'll be the first to admit GP's run out of breath (I'm talking stock here) right @ the beginning of 3rd gear @ 86mph. It would surprise me if a maxima DIDN'T win in a race at very high velocities...FYI grand prix GT is governed to 110 or so, and a GTP is limited to 128MPH (again assuming stock). So in a race (only against a stock manual Maxima, I doubt a stock auto could hang with a GTP - I'm not talking '02 either, I have no idea how fast they are) I would expect the GTP to edge out the Max at first, with the maxima catching and passing somewhere north of 95mph, just from my experiences...modded however, everything I said goes out the window, I've beat Maximas, but I've also been beat. Anything can happen on the street.

Although I recently went from stock to very modified in a 1 week period
so far I'm 0 and 1 against Maximas with mods!! So I'm hoping for another chance. Bring it

2k GTP, ASP 3.4 pulley, MSP CAI, Ubend delete, Dynomax Catback Exhaust, Heatshield, Gatorback Belt, minor cosmetics, 18" Eagle 077s

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

What's your 1/4 mile time? Mid to high 13's?

killrwheels

I really hate to get into this argument, but as owner of both a 2k1 Maxima AE and a 2k Buick Regal GS (3.8 Supercharged)I feel that I can make a more valid claim based on EXPERIENCE. The Regal is quicker in a straight line, against an auto Maxima. Stick, 2k2, and all other variables cannot easily be decided.

I spent over 26K on the Maxima and a year later it is in perfect shape. (Paint chips suck) I spent 24.5K for Regal and both cars are fully loaded with all options minus heated seats (Florida). I did the smaller pulley and belt recently along with computer relocation (inside airbox for decreased airflow prior). The car is seriously faster and can easily smoke the front's for a football field. In fact, even with Traction Control on the Regal GS overpowers the control with spin.

My favorite......the Maxima. Why?? It handles better and have never once slid across it while moving into a corner at full throttle. But I have to admit, I love to sit at a light .....punch the throttle.....and watch my sleeper Regal surprise anyone sitting next to it.

I think that added variables and additional $$$ can provide anyone the win but comparing becomes harder. As said earlier, they both have four doors, but thats where the similarities end. I just cannot wait for my wife to bring us child as see his/her s**t eating grin when lighting up tires in Regal or carving corners in Maxima. Call him/her a car nut like father and all debates become inconsequential.

kit99bar

Maxima comes in 5spd
GTP only comes in auto

that alone makes the maxima a better car for me to drive

02MaximaSE

I was taken by a stock GTP at the track, I believe he just had an K&N filter in his car. 14.4 i believe while i did 14.8