Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

I would say go for it -- just bear in mind that once you pull an older car into the dealer they will run around finding all sorts of things you MUST REPLACE right NOW or the car will allegedly explode.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

Well, I've made some new observations.

I do believe the problem is that during startup, it's either not getting spark, or not getting ENOUGH spark.

When it finally does catch, it does a stumbling brm brrn brmbrm before the steady humming idle. My old Volkswagen used to do that if I pumped the gas too much while starting it in cold weather -- too much gas got the plugs too wet and it would stumble a bit when starting.

There have been a lot of theories. A lot of suggestions like "replace this sensor" and "clean that throttle body" and "charge the battery" and "replace the plugs." I've done all those things, and everything helped for the first start or two, then it's long cranking all over again.

I'm thinking of calling in the big guns. I think I'm going to call the guys at Car Talk. I've been practicing imitating the sound effects and such.

But before I do that -- does anyone have an extra set of coils I can borrow and try out? At only 79,000 milles I don't think they should be ready for replacement, but who knows.

What I don't get is once it's running, everything is great. If it were the coils or related wire harness, I"d think that it would be missing and stumbling all the time, or when rainy at least.

T_Behr904

After reading this, the first thing that came to mind was this commercial. I hope you don't mind the humor. In all seriousness, I do understand your frustration. I've been dealing with a pesky P1320 code myself, and it's starting to get expensive and I still haven't cured the problem yet.

nelledge

iTrader: (6)

I sincerely hope that was a misnomer. Otherwise, the 'big guns' really should be a professional garage.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

It was a mis-speak. I realize they are all in one self contained unit. I was suggesting the problem might be in the coil assembly which contacts the spark plug and bolts to the head, or the connecting wiring harness which snaps onto said coil assembly.

I've been working on cars for so long, the phrase "plugs and wires" just comes out sometimes.

cmd26

iTrader: (6)

I have the warm start issue, could these sensors be associated with that?

OHH NOES

iTrader: (3)

Have you checked your camshaft position sensors? If not, take them out, clean them and check voltage. If you've checked that, next I would check fuel pressure. Get a gauge and check pressure. Make sure the pump is priming and building enough pressure. I highly doubt it's your coils, the car would start unless all of them were bad which is highly unlikely at 79k miles. I would also check all of your grounds, make sure they are all attached and they aren't rusty. It also wouldn't hurt to buy or make your own grounding kit. The older cars get, the more corrosion builds up on the stock grounds causing insufficient grounds.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

I've pulled all three sensors (2 cranks down low, one cam up top, it's a 2001 with a 3.0) and tested them for continuity and voltage. Everything came out ok.

Grounds: There are 6 (I think?) contact loops on two posts near the oil fill cap. I pulled each of those. All contact surfaces were cleaned with emery cloth and reinstalled.

Fuel pump and filter: I have not tested those yet, but it's next. I'm doubting this is it because when I'm in motion I don't get that "running out of gas" feeling that a failed fuel pump will give -- however I am willing to check everything.

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

do you have the grey dot coils?

phatboislim

iTrader: (27)

i had the slow start on mine...my + terminal wouldnt tighten up, bought a new one...seems to be working fine...

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

I just checked my coils. They do NOT have gray dots on them.

A little bit of searching around here tells me that the dotted coils are updated versions of the undotted coils... but I'm having trouble finding out exactly what the problem is with the undotted coils.

Education please!

Murph

made in china

iTrader: (7)

I think I am going to purchase a UpRev Cipher setup so I can access ECU diagnostics the same as Consult-II. My GST just can't get OBD-II data in such a way that I can diag this intermittent problem. My theory is that the ECU is "asleep" at these times these cars fail to start right away. The stumbling is due to an over-rich mixture. The over rich mixture is probably due to the injectors shootin' fuel but the spark plugs not firing off. I know my car in particular is darn near flooded when this happens. But my previous test proved coil voltage exists when the problem occurs, now I am going to check for a pulsing signal to the coils next.

I'm starting to think it's a defective ECU. If it was a component issue, it would occur at some other times besides start up. Bad sensor would cause the car to stumble or die. Bad coil(s) would cause rough running and idle.
BTW, the defective coils show up as a rough idle at times (especially when heated up) and will eventually throw a misfire code. Our problem is not a bad coil(s).
It's also not a "slow start" either. It's a failure to start right away.

I even went so far as to check my fuel pressure. It's spot on too. It's definitely the ECU being lazy or something, once my car does start it runs perfect all the time. And I rack up the miles like crazy on this car every day.

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

I know there were problems with the original coils, that is why the part number changed and the coils were revamped. But I don't remember the original problem.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to agree with you on all points here. I've had the same thoughts, most of them centering on "why does it work fine once it's running, just not in the beginning?"

China, do you have this diagnosing machine yet, or is it a christmas wish? Ideally I'd like to borrow a known good ECU from someone and test it before replacing my ECU in a parts-throwing frenzy.

RR5

iTrader: (6)

You've got a 3.0 L engine in a 5th gen maxima?

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

Yes -- if I understand correctly, the 2000 & 2001's got a 3.0, and 2002-2003 got the 3.5

RR5

iTrader: (6)

I always thought the 4th gen had the 3.0L and the 5th gen (2000-2003) had the 3.5L.

foodmanry

iTrader: (15)

3.5L started on the 5.5 gen or 2k2.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

I'm going to buy the Cipher pretty soon since it is applicable for both my VQ35DE and my Titan. The Titan is having "issues" also (bless Nissan) and I just need to clear it with the "War Department" (wife).

I plan on datalogging everything I can (supposedly 15 sensors at 20 frame per second simultaneously) and see if there's a sensor or subsystem acting wonky during hard start. I plan on comparing the hard start data to the normal start data.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

Ah, the good ol' Ministry of War and Finance. Keep that department happy, my friend.

Hopefully you are somewhere near Illinois so that I can wander out to your workshop and plead you to attach your data-finding gizmo to my car as well....

Of course that won't FIX anything, will it? Wait, are ECM problems "hard" like something gets fried or physically broken, or could this be a programming issue?

made in china

iTrader: (7)

ECU problems can be diagnosed. By scanning multiple input and output values, it can be determined where the fault is. For example, all good sensor inputs, good voltage supply, etc. but no coil output could be an indication of a bad ECU. Also, any sensors requiring conditioned +5VDC for reference may see a drop of the +5VDC during startup which would indicate a problem internal to the ECU. Basically, all inputs and outputs should be verifiable with a Cipher or Consult-II making possible to determine the fault.

My car has NATS (the security chip inside the key) and even that could be a cause of the problem. If the NATS key or ring around the ignition is having problems, it could cause a hard start also....hmmm. It wouldn't even throw a code either. And it would only present itself during start attempts. But using the Cipher I should be able to monitor that too....

OHH NOES

iTrader: (3)

The cipher doesn't work on our cars. I've tried it numerous times. I'm actually even trying my friend's version of cipher today or tomorrow to make sure it isn't my laptop or my software not working. Two local Nissan/Infiniti tuners warned me it probably wouldn't work on our 5th gens. I'll post up what happens when I find out.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

Are you talking about the VQ35DE 5.5 Gens? According to Nmemax the Cipher should work on the 3.5L Maxima's. I have a 2004 I35 drivetrain in my car, essentially a Gen 5.5 carryover into the I35 when the Gen 6 Maxima was released.

Let me know if you find it doesn't work on VQ35DE 5.5 Gen Maxima's, cause that's gonna suck for me. I can still use Cipher for my Titan.

In the meantime, I'm gonna track down the NATS operation and see if it has anything to do with hard starting. The common thread between the VQ30DE-K and VQ35DE would be NATS. The rest of the drivetrain is different enough that I am surprised both the 3.0 and 3.5 have similar issues.
This never happened on my car with the VQ30DE non-NATS 1997 setup, and I don't think this really occurs on non-NATS cars.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

One thing I've been trying to figure out (through some tedious searching on here) is trying to determine some sort of common time period this condition seems to start happening. I.E. Age of car, miles, etc. I haven't found any conclusive or consistent information yet, but I'm not exactly using NASA-grade research either.

Regarding the NATS:

I have what might be most ridiculous and probably STUPIDEST suggestion anyone in the history of Max.org might ever read -- but hear me out.

One of the conditions I've observed is "Sometimes it starts right up, other times it's hard cranking." Although I have not seen this, others have observed that sometimes turning the key a certain way (slowly, harder, etc) seems to help.

I did a little snooping and learned that our keys have a magical chip embedded within them called the IVIS (Infiniti Vehicle Immobilizer System) . I'm going to guess it's an inductive magnet of some sort. The ignition switch has an IMMU which detects the key and either allows the engine to start, causes a no-start condition, or in some extreme cases causes a cow in a small village outside of Sweden to explode. (Vehicles equipped with the VQ35 engine had a recall campaign to correct this condition, but as always the VQ30's were left out in the cold, just like the cow.)

I've never paid attention but I will start looking more closely as I start the engine -- a tip-off to this would be if the red security LED flashes during the "no start" condition until it decides to start.

Here are my two tests:

1) Going to use my extra key for a while and see if that makes a difference. Maybe one of the many times I dropped my car keys, the key landed JUST right and harmed the magnet. I remember in 2nd grade science class learning that a magnet can be demagnetized by hitting it with a hammer or forcing it to watch the Perry Como Himalayan Christmas Special -- this is because each action is equally unpleasant.

2) I'm going to somehow identify the different sides of the key (maybe a dot of nail polish or a tightly applied Zip-Tie) and figure out if it makes a difference which side of the key faces "up" when trying to start the engine.

3) I wonder if maybe the IVIS IMMU mounted inside the steering collumn maybe bounced out of place or something or has a pinched wire ...

HANG ON A SECOND.

Do the IMMU wires travel along the same course through the steering column as the radio control buttons? I've noticed that my volume and station select buttons sometimes don't work -- almost EXACTLY as randomly as the no-start condition. However if I turn the steering wheel to the right or left a bit, the buttons "wake up."

So a subquestion now is: To those of you with the intermittent no-start condition -- do your remote radio buttons act up too?

made in china

iTrader: (7)

The key has a transceiver chip, not a magnet, FYI. The keyring has a radio loop that emits a signal that the key sends back passively. The signal sent back has the code that the NATS or IVIS recognizes.

I just changed my oil today and noticed that my crank sensor harness is all wrapped up around some line coming out of the oil filter mount. I need to look at that more closely.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

I've been paying attention to which way the key is inserted and it doesn't seem to make a difference. Not that I really expected it to have any effect, but at this point I'd smear pudding on the windows if someone said that would help.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

Mine's getting worse in our warmer weather. I live in the Seattle area, we just recently got into the mid-high 80's, and I've been using the AC and sitting in traffic. The restarts after the car is heat soaked are more difficult than in cooler temps. Otherwise the car runs perfect.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

OK -- Here's an interesting new variable which seems to support the theories of electrical/ECU issues.

For the last four starts, this is my procedure and it seems to help. (of course I could be just experiencing a coincidence like my last several attempts)

Turn key to "run" but do not start. Take this time to get situated, put on seatbelt, put bag on floor, etc. Basically waste 15-20 seconds.

Then attempt to start the car. Starts right up each time.

Not knowing anything about how the ECM works, this supports the "Lazy ECM" theory mentioned earlier, like maybe by doing this, whatever is "lazy" is "woken up" during the wait instead of during cranking.

I'm contemplating pulling the ECM and doing a visual check for corrosion, something burnt out, a family of elves living inside, whatever.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

Mine does that sometimes too. I've tried that trick many times before. Ocassionally, the waiting trick doesn't work. But, I found an even more sure way to make it start right away. I turn the key to start for just a split second, release, then start again. It will start right away the second time.

The thing that sucks is if we replace the ECU we'll need to deal with NATS. We can't just swap one in real quick to see if that helps.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

Long enough to make the starter rotate at all, or just a shot of power?

This is good information -- does NATS reprogramming come into play any itme the ECM is removed, or only if a different one is swapped in?

OHH NOES

iTrader: (3)

Only when a new one is swapped in.

As far as your starting issue, if you leave the car in the "on position" for a few seconds before trying to start the car and this actually makes the car start perfectly everytime this usually means you have bad coils. Before the coils are able to deliver a powerful enough charge to the spark plugs they have to "charge up." As they get older they take longer and they begin to "charge" when you have the car in the on position.

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

Well, it doesn't help. I tried all day and it only worked by dumb luck in the morning.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

It's just a "blip". That's all. I do it like that because sometimes it is embarrassing how hard the car starts.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

Coils don't "charge up" like that. Coils are inductive, when the DC field collapses, they induce a high voltage into a spark plug. They do this between hundreds to thousands of times a minute when the engine is running. If they needed time to "charge up", they'd never be "charged up" enough to sustain a running engine. The term "charge" applies to capacitors which can be charged and power stored, coils release energy by "inductance" when a field collapses or alternates.

Coils go bad when they develop dielectric failures. Most of the time, heat makes the problem worse. The induced voltage in the coil will find a short in the dielectric to ground, causing a no-spark condition. Or, a coil's windings will go open or short.

RR5

iTrader: (6)

Then, would this potentially be a problem that could be found on the 2002+ Maxima? Since taking ownership of my 2002 in Sept-2004, I never had a starting problem. Only trouble I had was parking on a damn hill and having ultra low fuel. Level parking never produces that problem.

Use logical troubleshooting, trace out every component and pathway of the various systems to determine the root cause of this hard starting condition.

Fuel, Ignition, Starter, and so on. Recording values and compare them to a known good vehicle. Not much help I know, but I am curious to see if an answer can be identified.

fossill

I have just about the same exact issue with my 2001 GLE. It started exactly the same day that I was trouble shooting a short in my front drivers side seat. I did a bunch of stuff that day. Disconnected the battery, removed/checked/put back in a ton of fuses under the dash and under the hood, fiddled with wires under the seat, checked voltage at the drivers door, etc. I thought for sure it was some kind of computer issue related to disconnecting the batter but it never worked itself out. I've since had an alternator go bad and just had it replaced, was hoping that would fix the issue but it didn't. I cannot find any kind of pattern. Cold, it rarely it starts on first try. After all that cranking I smell gas, do you ever smell gas? If I take it somewhere, run into a store, and then run back out, it almost always fires up immediately, but that's only when it has just been sitting for a few minutes. I hope you have some luck determining what it is. Subscribed!

nismomaxx

Well my 02 jsut did this to me! I swapped in a new motor after blowing my old one... not sure if my car is covered under the TSB. Does Nissan replace it for free if its covered under the TSB?

Montego Murph

iTrader: (1)

I have an update.

Sadly, it is a predictable update.

I replaced the MAF, and I was very excited to report that the no-start situation had improved. Started right up on the first several tries.

Now it's right back to where it was before. Sometimes starts right up, other times takes 10 seconds of cranking.

I just don't get it. I need to start thinking of it from a different angle. It seems that every time I mess with something under the hood, it starts fine for a few starts, then reverts back to no-start.

made in china

iTrader: (7)

It's just coincidence. Lately, I haven't messed with my car at all, but the last few days it's been starting like a champ. I swear the engine doesn't even turn 1/2 way over before it fires right up. Only difference lately is that the weather has turned cold and rainy.

smai555

hey guys i have a 4th gen been fighting this cold/warm/no start off and on for a few years always seems to return when it gets cold (mine has returned btw) , one thing i havent notice here is grounding, adding cleaning and replacing grounds has worked well for me in the past

try grounding the starter