Hankering for More Octane
03-04-2002, 11:42 AM
#1
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
Hankering for More Octane
I'm just plain ****ed off the highest octane around the valley Ottawa-Gatineau is 94. My car is set up with turbo/N2o looking for source to purchase higher octane fuel. My calculations indicate I need to run 102-107. Anyone know of a supplier behind Canadian lines?
03-04-2002, 11:51 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,968
Nice setup!!
Where the heck did you get a turbo unit that works, let alone with nirous?
Only suggestion on octane would be an octane booster from auto parts stores...I know in the states, unless you live near a track of somekind, the best you will ever find is 93-94.
Only suggestion on octane would be an octane booster from auto parts stores...I know in the states, unless you live near a track of somekind, the best you will ever find is 93-94.
03-04-2002, 12:09 PM
#3
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
Re: Nice setup!!
It's all in the fuel system.
The turbo system was aftermarket unit originally for an eagle talon, tricky part was converting the brackets. Once everything was bolted in it became a question of configuring the fuel/air management system.
It took about 2 months of pain in the butt tweaking, just to get the engine running on the turbo.
Once I was satisfied hooked up the N2o. First hit of Nitrous cost me 2 pistons and 6 months of rebuild [fuel solenoid stuck closed]
Nissan voided the warantee; not sure my girlfriend made the right decision to go with the exetended coverage.
The turbo system was aftermarket unit originally for an eagle talon, tricky part was converting the brackets. Once everything was bolted in it became a question of configuring the fuel/air management system.
It took about 2 months of pain in the butt tweaking, just to get the engine running on the turbo.
Once I was satisfied hooked up the N2o. First hit of Nitrous cost me 2 pistons and 6 months of rebuild [fuel solenoid stuck closed]
Nissan voided the warantee; not sure my girlfriend made the right decision to go with the exetended coverage.
Originally posted by jjs
Where the heck did you get a turbo unit that works, let alone with nirous?
Only suggestion on octane would be an octane booster from auto parts stores...I know in the states, unless you live near a track of somekind, the best you will ever find is 93-94.
Where the heck did you get a turbo unit that works, let alone with nirous?
Only suggestion on octane would be an octane booster from auto parts stores...I know in the states, unless you live near a track of somekind, the best you will ever find is 93-94.
03-04-2002, 12:56 PM
#4
Maxima Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,467
Turbo?? Well done..certainly confounding
many of the nay-sayers around here.
Two suggestions: Check out the specific gravity of 100 octane Aviation gasoline...if close to normal gas it might work -at least blended half and half with normal automotive premium fuel.
You are of course intercooling, right? If not, an intercooler is worth like five octane points! Another question: have u considered water injection? That's worth another two/three octane points, so...between the AvGas blend, intercooling and water injection u may be home free.....
Two suggestions: Check out the specific gravity of 100 octane Aviation gasoline...if close to normal gas it might work -at least blended half and half with normal automotive premium fuel.
You are of course intercooling, right? If not, an intercooler is worth like five octane points! Another question: have u considered water injection? That's worth another two/three octane points, so...between the AvGas blend, intercooling and water injection u may be home free.....
03-05-2002, 06:51 AM
#7
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
Re: Turbo?? Well done..certainly confounding
Yeah using a retrofitted volvo intercooler. Haven't really given water injection much of a look. You using?
Any suggestions of the mix ratio of aviation fuel?
My buddy drivin' killer 5 litre tells that Drummonds sells 110 Sunoco at $8.00/gallon...as much as I love octane that is just a little steep. Although it rapidly appears that there may be no choice.
Thoughts appreciated especially on water injection.
Any suggestions of the mix ratio of aviation fuel?
My buddy drivin' killer 5 litre tells that Drummonds sells 110 Sunoco at $8.00/gallon...as much as I love octane that is just a little steep. Although it rapidly appears that there may be no choice.
Thoughts appreciated especially on water injection.
Originally posted by Galo
many of the nay-sayers around here.
Two suggestions: Check out the specific gravity of 100 octane Aviation gasoline...if close to normal gas it might work -at least blended half and half with normal automotive premium fuel.
You are of course intercooling, right? If not, an intercooler is worth like five octane points! Another question: have u considered water injection? That's worth another two/three octane points, so...between the AvGas blend, intercooling and water injection u may be home free.....
many of the nay-sayers around here.
Two suggestions: Check out the specific gravity of 100 octane Aviation gasoline...if close to normal gas it might work -at least blended half and half with normal automotive premium fuel.
You are of course intercooling, right? If not, an intercooler is worth like five octane points! Another question: have u considered water injection? That's worth another two/three octane points, so...between the AvGas blend, intercooling and water injection u may be home free.....
03-05-2002, 07:27 AM
#8
Maxima Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,467
Joe...no experience with WI in cars but yes
on a turbo boat I used to help wrench on about 10 years ago when turbos were pretty much 'new' technology on non-diesel engines.
Yes, it definitely helps. Basically u set it up much like a fuel enrichening injector to spray directly into the intake manifold right after the whole MAF/throttle body assembly. Use of distilled water is a MUST..you can also go with a 90% water, 10% alcohol mix.
You'll want about 45-60 psi...easiest way to get this is to pressurize the container containing the water itself with air to about 60-65 PSI with the water outlet connected to a solenoid/pressure sensitive valve that opens when turbo boost hits a certain PSI. Oon the boat it was set to start at 11psi, in your case it would depend on how much ultimate boost ur running...typically you wanna set the WI to operate when u are about 70-80% of ultimate boost.
I have'nt checked but there still should be WI kits out there...give them a look-see.
As to the octane, 100 Avgas is reputed to be equivalent to 110 car gas so I would try like a 3:1 mixture....on a full tank I would try 8 gallons best possible premium fuel and 4 gallons AvGas to start.
Yes, it definitely helps. Basically u set it up much like a fuel enrichening injector to spray directly into the intake manifold right after the whole MAF/throttle body assembly. Use of distilled water is a MUST..you can also go with a 90% water, 10% alcohol mix.
You'll want about 45-60 psi...easiest way to get this is to pressurize the container containing the water itself with air to about 60-65 PSI with the water outlet connected to a solenoid/pressure sensitive valve that opens when turbo boost hits a certain PSI. Oon the boat it was set to start at 11psi, in your case it would depend on how much ultimate boost ur running...typically you wanna set the WI to operate when u are about 70-80% of ultimate boost.
I have'nt checked but there still should be WI kits out there...give them a look-see.
As to the octane, 100 Avgas is reputed to be equivalent to 110 car gas so I would try like a 3:1 mixture....on a full tank I would try 8 gallons best possible premium fuel and 4 gallons AvGas to start.
03-05-2002, 08:31 AM
#9
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
Re: Joe...no experience with WI in cars but yes
From what I can gather the concept works like this:
at a specific boost level a water mist is added to the air fuel mixture causing the charge to cool before detonation. However the water mist evaporates before ignition?
Utlimately lowering charge temperature allowing a lower pre-ignition (detonation) level emulating a higher octane concentration.
at a specific boost level a water mist is added to the air fuel mixture causing the charge to cool before detonation. However the water mist evaporates before ignition?
Utlimately lowering charge temperature allowing a lower pre-ignition (detonation) level emulating a higher octane concentration.
Originally posted by Galo
on a turbo boat I used to help wrench on about 10 years ago when turbos were pretty much 'new' technology on non-diesel engines.
Yes, it definitely helps. Basically u set it up much like a fuel enrichening injector to spray directly into the intake manifold right after the whole MAF/throttle body assembly. Use of distilled water is a MUST..you can also go with a 90% water, 10% alcohol mix.
You'll want about 45-60 psi...easiest way to get this is to pressurize the container containing the water itself with air to about 60-65 PSI with the water outlet connected to a solenoid/pressure sensitive valve that opens when turbo boost hits a certain PSI. Oon the boat it was set to start at 11psi, in your case it would depend on how much ultimate boost ur running...typically you wanna set the WI to operate when u are about 70-80% of ultimate boost.
I have'nt checked but there still should be WI kits out there...give them a look-see.
As to the octane, 100 Avgas is reputed to be equivalent to 110 car gas so I would try like a 3:1 mixture....on a full tank I would try 8 gallons best possible premium fuel and 4 gallons AvGas to start.
on a turbo boat I used to help wrench on about 10 years ago when turbos were pretty much 'new' technology on non-diesel engines.
Yes, it definitely helps. Basically u set it up much like a fuel enrichening injector to spray directly into the intake manifold right after the whole MAF/throttle body assembly. Use of distilled water is a MUST..you can also go with a 90% water, 10% alcohol mix.
You'll want about 45-60 psi...easiest way to get this is to pressurize the container containing the water itself with air to about 60-65 PSI with the water outlet connected to a solenoid/pressure sensitive valve that opens when turbo boost hits a certain PSI. Oon the boat it was set to start at 11psi, in your case it would depend on how much ultimate boost ur running...typically you wanna set the WI to operate when u are about 70-80% of ultimate boost.
I have'nt checked but there still should be WI kits out there...give them a look-see.
As to the octane, 100 Avgas is reputed to be equivalent to 110 car gas so I would try like a 3:1 mixture....on a full tank I would try 8 gallons best possible premium fuel and 4 gallons AvGas to start.
03-05-2002, 08:34 AM
#10
Maxima Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,467
zzzactly!! The water mist acts as additional
intercooling, if u will...it all evaporates before the combution chamber after dropping the intake charge temp by up to 60-80 degrees because of the cooling effect of evaporation...
03-05-2002, 08:36 AM
#11
Re: Hankering for More Octane
Originally posted by JoeGatineau
I'm just plain ****ed off the highest octane around the valley Ottawa-Gatineau is 94. My car is set up with turbo/N2o looking for source to purchase higher octane fuel. My calculations indicate I need to run 102-107. Anyone know of a supplier behind Canadian lines?
I'm just plain ****ed off the highest octane around the valley Ottawa-Gatineau is 94. My car is set up with turbo/N2o looking for source to purchase higher octane fuel. My calculations indicate I need to run 102-107. Anyone know of a supplier behind Canadian lines?
Damn I wish I could get 94-octane at my local Chevron. They dropped it from 92 to 91.
Why not just use a $5-7 bottle of 104+ octane booster each tank full, that's a lot cheaper than $8/gallon of the good stuff?
More details on you setup please.
03-05-2002, 08:46 AM
#13
Maxima Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,467
Joe....we tried that octane boost stuff and
quite frankly it was very disappointing...then again, I'm talking about 10 years ago, maybe those additives do something now but not then.
My Max is pretty much stock...black/black '01 SE 5-speed with just Eibacks and Tokicos...more to come later, but slowly.
The setup I was wrenching on was a 42 ft deep-V Cigarette running two aluminum block 500 cu.in. Chevys with twin turbos, 8:1 compression ratio but 16 PSI boost, intercooling, twin Holley carbs, only revving to 6600 (gotta keep the outdrives alive) but with about 1050 hp on the dyno.
The boat would bo about 120...great fun.
My Max is pretty much stock...black/black '01 SE 5-speed with just Eibacks and Tokicos...more to come later, but slowly.
The setup I was wrenching on was a 42 ft deep-V Cigarette running two aluminum block 500 cu.in. Chevys with twin turbos, 8:1 compression ratio but 16 PSI boost, intercooling, twin Holley carbs, only revving to 6600 (gotta keep the outdrives alive) but with about 1050 hp on the dyno.
The boat would bo about 120...great fun.
03-05-2002, 09:16 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
Free base it
Last night on my usual shawville run I ran into a guy mixing down his own fuel at an Ultramar.
Claimed that by 'high ballin' his gas with 30% straight methanol he got octane increase was about 10%. Honestly couldn't really believe it...but he was tooling a phat 72/73 chevelle.
I've been looking around [www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farming/05010.pdf] and his estimate seems far too high.
Apparantly the mix is readily available in the area...anybody high balling their mix ratios?
Claimed that by 'high ballin' his gas with 30% straight methanol he got octane increase was about 10%. Honestly couldn't really believe it...but he was tooling a phat 72/73 chevelle.
I've been looking around [www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farming/05010.pdf] and his estimate seems far too high.
Apparantly the mix is readily available in the area...anybody high balling their mix ratios?
03-05-2002, 11:45 AM
#15
Maxima Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,467
Yes, I can believe it...methanol is cool-running
fuel..so yes, I can believe what he's saying but there's a catch: pound for pound methanol has just a wee bit more than half the BTU content of gasoline which means that with Methanol you need almost twice the fuel flow of gasoline to get equal HP...proof of this can be seen in the CART cars, they have 2.65 liter engines running 45 PSI boost and getting 800 hp but they struggle to make 2.1 miles per gallon which is what they are allotted with a race.
They get enough fuel allotted to run the race's distance @ 2.1mpg, no more, no less...that's why they have five-position mixture selectors so they can manage their fuel economy.
Put another way, yes you can do that but prepare yourself to increase your fuel flow -and hence consumption- by 30% across the full RPM range!
They get enough fuel allotted to run the race's distance @ 2.1mpg, no more, no less...that's why they have five-position mixture selectors so they can manage their fuel economy.
Put another way, yes you can do that but prepare yourself to increase your fuel flow -and hence consumption- by 30% across the full RPM range!
03-05-2002, 06:17 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 242
Re: Hankering for More Octane
Originally posted by JoeGatineau
I'm just plain ****ed off the highest octane around the valley Ottawa-Gatineau is 94. My car is set up with turbo/N2o looking for source to purchase higher octane fuel. My calculations indicate I need to run 102-107. Anyone know of a supplier behind Canadian lines?
I'm just plain ****ed off the highest octane around the valley Ottawa-Gatineau is 94. My car is set up with turbo/N2o looking for source to purchase higher octane fuel. My calculations indicate I need to run 102-107. Anyone know of a supplier behind Canadian lines?
What reason are you looking for more octane? How did you come up with a calculation of 102-107?.
The only reason you should need higher octane is if you are running 9+ pounds of boost, and are currently experiencing knock-are you? Have you done any exhaust mods? Having laughing gas necessitates a larger exhaust to allow for it to expand, and not cause a ton of back pressure.
As for the water injection, my bro & I did it on a 87 buick GN days back. Put a nozzle with a fine mist right into the the throttle body inlet, welded a bung right on. We then hooked up a switch on the shifter to add the h2o. the only problem with this is you need it at certain points and you are busy driving when you realize you need it.
Look for the book "maximum boost" by Corky Bell, Bently publishers. He writes about how to test and design turbos. "The water injection is a band-aid for a poorly designed system"-he says. It will reduce temps, but it is a useable source. when your tank is empty, you can't run WOT then-right? you could break just off the line with some guy, and blammo-pistons through the hood. (by the by, I know people who did that with the GN's when their solenoids stuck open too) One guy got it fixed under warranty-they look for the bottle holes in the trunk first, they found it, said you got gas, he told them his son had stereo equipment there! SO they had to fix it.
by the by we ran avgas too, tried to get as much octane as possible at the trac, 104, you name it. You just cannot do that for every day drivers. Have you also upgraded the injector size or fuel pressure? If not you may lean out, and then you retard, and loose power.
It may just be you need to dial down your boost.
Hope this helps a bit-
WHooosshh!
03-05-2002, 09:36 PM
#17
high octane fuel......
just a thought...would help you much, but i can get 110 octane for around $3.50 a gallon at a station about 20 minutes away....its on highway 41 in NC..on the way to a race track in SC, its the only station around here that ive seen with gas rated at over 93-94 octane.
03-06-2002, 10:09 AM
#18
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
Re: Re: Hankering for More Octane
I have tried to maximize combustion air flow both on the intake side of the combustion chamber as well as the exhaust. I find that if just 1 piece of the puzzle say is changed, say adding nitrous you don't realize a true HP increase because the rest of the stock is configured to deliver to 227 HP. Up size 1 up size all then you rock.
You know if an aftermarket windage tray is out there that could be mod'd to the max?
You know if an aftermarket windage tray is out there that could be mod'd to the max?
Originally posted by VQ30GTR
Joe
What reason are you looking for more octane? How did you come up with a calculation of 102-107?.
The only reason you should need higher octane is if you are running 9+ pounds of boost, and are currently experiencing knock-are you? Have you done any exhaust mods? Having laughing gas necessitates a larger exhaust to allow for it to expand, and not cause a ton of back pressure.
As for the water injection, my bro & I did it on a 87 buick GN days back. Put a nozzle with a fine mist right into the the throttle body inlet, welded a bung right on. We then hooked up a switch on the shifter to add the h2o. the only problem with this is you need it at certain points and you are busy driving when you realize you need it.
Look for the book "maximum boost" by Corky Bell, Bently publishers. He writes about how to test and design turbos. "The water injection is a band-aid for a poorly designed system"-he says. It will reduce temps, but it is a useable source. when your tank is empty, you can't run WOT then-right? you could break just off the line with some guy, and blammo-pistons through the hood. (by the by, I know people who did that with the GN's when their solenoids stuck open too) One guy got it fixed under warranty-they look for the bottle holes in the trunk first, they found it, said you got gas, he told them his son had stereo equipment there! SO they had to fix it.
by the by we ran avgas too, tried to get as much octane as possible at the trac, 104, you name it. You just cannot do that for every day drivers. Have you also upgraded the injector size or fuel pressure? If not you may lean out, and then you retard, and loose power.
It may just be you need to dial down your boost.
Hope this helps a bit-
WHooosshh!
Joe
What reason are you looking for more octane? How did you come up with a calculation of 102-107?.
The only reason you should need higher octane is if you are running 9+ pounds of boost, and are currently experiencing knock-are you? Have you done any exhaust mods? Having laughing gas necessitates a larger exhaust to allow for it to expand, and not cause a ton of back pressure.
As for the water injection, my bro & I did it on a 87 buick GN days back. Put a nozzle with a fine mist right into the the throttle body inlet, welded a bung right on. We then hooked up a switch on the shifter to add the h2o. the only problem with this is you need it at certain points and you are busy driving when you realize you need it.
Look for the book "maximum boost" by Corky Bell, Bently publishers. He writes about how to test and design turbos. "The water injection is a band-aid for a poorly designed system"-he says. It will reduce temps, but it is a useable source. when your tank is empty, you can't run WOT then-right? you could break just off the line with some guy, and blammo-pistons through the hood. (by the by, I know people who did that with the GN's when their solenoids stuck open too) One guy got it fixed under warranty-they look for the bottle holes in the trunk first, they found it, said you got gas, he told them his son had stereo equipment there! SO they had to fix it.
by the by we ran avgas too, tried to get as much octane as possible at the trac, 104, you name it. You just cannot do that for every day drivers. Have you also upgraded the injector size or fuel pressure? If not you may lean out, and then you retard, and loose power.
It may just be you need to dial down your boost.
Hope this helps a bit-
WHooosshh!
03-06-2002, 02:18 PM
#19
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 6
Have you ever tried mixing with Xylene or Toluene? There are places where you can buy them fairly inexpensively. They are what is used in octane boosters. Small cans of octane boosters don't raise octane to the levels that you are looking for. I own a 87 Grand National and there is a lot of info on fuel additives on the web. A lot of those cars run a lot of boost.Try this web site for info. http://www.gnttype.org/
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