Here it is folks... Given the lack of any DYNOS yet, I've been doing a lot of fiddling in CarTest software trying to figure out what the heck kind of power the new 04 Maxima is really making. The 02-03 ratings of 255hp/246tq were way out of whack and more like 240-245hp/265tq. Because of that, many people have been curious as to how the power was rated this time around and whether it's accurate or not.

Here is where this thread is coming from: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=254066

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

The 02-03 VQ35DE appears to be a hybrid 2nd/3rd generation VQ engine that's tuned mostly for low-end and mid-range. The 04+ engine is a full 3rd generation design and has a lot more top-end. I wouldn't be surprised to see a manual dyno at about 230 whp, and an automagic at about 220 whp. Compare that to about 200-205 for an 02-03 6spd, and 190 or so for an automagic.

And yes, the only way I was able to replicate ga2000's track times in cartest (a very accurate and capable piece of software) was by cranking the power up to about 280hp/270tq which is how some of the other 3rd gen VQ35DE engines are rated.

ga2000's time is equal or better than the best stock 02-03 automagic time and that's with a good 250 lb of extra curb weight, and much heavier and boggier rims. A measly 10 extra hp and tq "advertised" is not going to be anywhere close to compensating for that, so I believe it's a safe bet that Nissan is sandbagging on the 6th gen Max's power figures.

I have finally gotten everything together. I went to www.nissannews.com and put the complete specs for the 2004 Maxima 3.5SE auto into cartest. Now, there is a limitation in the software in that it assumes that cars all have dinky little 45 lb per corner 15" wheels. It takes a lot more energy to spin up a set of massive 55 lb per corner 18" wheels. So what you do to compensate for that is to add 8 pounds of curb weight to the car for every pound of wheel and tire mass above 45. This 8:1 rule has been pretty accurate and is a good rule of thumb to go by. So that's 10 pounds per corner, and you also have 4 wheels and tires, so that comes out to 10 x 8 x 4 = 320 lbs of compensation to account for the big rims. If this sounds a little hokey to you and you need some more convincing, checkout this writeup HERE. After that I just fiddled with the traction, tire pressure, and power levels until I was able to match ga2000's timeslip as closely as possible. And what I ended up with was 280hp and 270tq being the closest match which coincidentally is how a few of these other "3rd generation" VQ35DE engines are rated.

Here is ga2000's timeslip...



And now here are the CarTest2000 software results based on the above setup with "rated" power of 265hp/255tq, my guess of 280hp/270tq, and ga2000's guess of 265hp/275tq. Items in bold are within 5-hundredths or 0.5 mph of his actual timeslip.

Notes:
I never could get the 60' time and all of the other distance intervals to line up perfectly. The best curve fit I could get was with a 2.24 60' time. Launch is very very tough for the software to nail perfectly because there is so much going on. Torque converter slack, wheelspin, variable traction and grip, etc. But the rest of the numbers lined up very well so I feel it's still accurate.

280hp/270tq
With power set to this, beyond the 60' mark the curve fit was within two-hundredths and two-tenths of a mph all the way down the track which is incredibly accurate. The 280hp/270tq power setting by far gives the most accurate curve fit to this timeslip.

265hp/275tq
Because it has similar or equal torque to the 280/270 setup, with these power ratings the Maxima stays close within the first 1/8th mile where you're dealing with the lower two-thirds of the rev-range. But in the last 1/8th mile you're dealing mostly with top-end torque (peak horsepower) and with only 265hp (15 down from my 280 estimate) the Maxima now falls off the pace and lags behind. By the 1/4 mile mark its down by a tenth and roughly 1 mph.

265hp/255tq
Not even close.


Conclusion
From dynos results from G35 sedans, coupes, and 350z's, it appears that all of these latest VQ35DE engines (called 3rd generation VQ35DE's by Nissan) are putting out roughly the same power and that Nissan is just playing number games with them. The power ratings are at 280hp/270tq in the G35 coupe and the FX35. Even though the G35 Sedan is only "rated" for 260hp/260tq, its dyno numbers and track times suggest more along the lines of 280/270 also. And because of the analysis above, I believe 280hp/270tq is about what the 2004 Maxima is putting out in reality as well. I have done everything possible to be sure that this simulation is accurate, and the same methodology has been extremely accurate in the past, so I feel the models are accurate. And since the 280hp/270tq settings most closely matched ga2000's timeslip, I think there is good reason to believe that Nissan rated the 6th gens a bit conservatively this time around.

Still waiting for some actual dynos from people so this is all just a guessing game until then, though. But I am not going to be surprised if we see automatic Maximas getting about 220 whp on a dynojet (vs 190 before) and the 6MT getting about 230 whp (vs about 200 before). These numbers are suggestive of about 280 hp at the crank, not 265.

Wow, that sums it up. great post, 280hp hell ya baby!!!!!


04 maxima

kick a$$!

thats absolutely awesome.
maybe i'll dyno it...
someday...

I think superior 5 speed auto teamed with FWD and big torque numbers allow the drivetrain to keep from bogging and select a far more ideal gear during racing and this is what propels the 150lb heavier 6th gen Maxima to similiar ET/MPH as the 5th gen 3.5 VQ. That extra torque multiplication means a lot. An extra 150lbs of weight really isn't that huge of a deal (maybe .15 and 1.5mph) due to the significantly higher torque numbers the 3.5 VQ puts out over the 3.0 VQ. The more torque you have, the less significant weight becomes. I don't doubt the 6th gen VQ might be making a little more power than the 5th gen, but I don't it's significantly more power. I'd guess around 5-10whp/wtq over the 5th gen VQ.

Also, where are you getting these 5th gen dyno numbers from? They seem a bit low. At my dyno shop, two bonestock 5th gen 6 speeds dynoed at ~215fwhp and a auto 3.5 VQ Altima put down 205fwhp and from what I've read on Maxima.org and the Altima sites, these are pretty typical stock numbers.

I'm saying 205-210fwhp for the auto 6th gen and 220-225fwhp for the 6 speed. Why? Because the 3400lb G35 sedan autos are getting 14.5-14.6@96mph with sad high 2.2 and 2.3 60 foots (rear wheel drive bog) and the 6 speeds G35 sedans are getting 14.3-14.4@98mph with 2.1-2.2 60 foots. Sure, the G35's are RWD cars, but you can estimate the power to the ground by trap speed and they weigh about the same as the 6th gen Maxima (within 50lbs). Seeing that the G35s are running consistently .2-.4 seconds quicker and 2-4mph faster than the 6th gen Maxima suggests to me that the 6th gen Maxima is not making more than it's advertized flywheel 260hp. The 6 speed G35 sedans are putting down ~235-240rwhp and the autos are putting down ~220-225rwhp.

We'll see which one of us is right when some of these guys start taking their cars to the dyno


Dave

if DaveB's #'s are right, then that means there is only a 16% power loss through the dirvetrain if hte 02\03 really has 255hp. which is very very good, correct?

Those numbers would be the exception, not the rule. If "typical" numbers for a 5th gen 6spd were really 215 fwhp then there never would have been this whole missing 15hp fiasco because 215 fwhp is right around 255-260hp crank. Those numbers are very high and not typical.

Are you sure they weren't bone stock with "just intake" or something?


Yes...we will see.

I know the Maximas were bonestock and I was told the Altima was stock They have a picture of the Altima on their board at the dyno shop and it didn't look like it had an intake. Exhaust, I don't know about.

What kind of drivetrain loss are you using? I thought a 16% loss was accepted for manuals and around 19% for the autos.

I think you're definately right in that the G35 sedan is underrated and pretty much puts out the same amount of power as the Z/G35 coupe. My friend has run his bonestock G35 sedan auto to a 14.70@96mph with a 2.3 60', 265lb driver, 1/2 tank of gas, spare/jack on board, and at 1100' in altitude. Put my 185lb butt in there without all the fuel and spare and I'd think 14.5s@97mph are possible. At sea level that's potentially a 14.3@98mph bonestock.

We've got to convince these guys to start dynoing.


Dave

According to SAE 2002-01-0887 : Listening to the Voice of the Customer: Inertia Dyno Horsepower Versus Oem-Rated Net Horsepower, an automatic tranny car will see about 78-81% of SAE net rated horsepower on a chassis dyno depending on the type of dyno and the car. A manual tranny will be 5-10% above that again depending on the type of dyno and car.

For mid-sized cars on Dynojet dynos, about 17% "loss" (83% of SAE net rated power) is a good number for manual cars, and around 22% "loss" (roughly 78% of SAE net rated power) seems to be good for automatic cars. These are the numbers I've been seeing in the real world across many different cars, and coincidentally, these are the loss factors that Patrick Glenn uses in his CarTest software as well. I have agreement between an SAE article, real-world results (as a whole) and how it's done in software, so I think these are pretty good numbers to use.

The perceived loss numbers will obviously be a lot lower if an engine is under-rated though (LS1) or a lot higher if it's over-rated. I thought I read somewhere that BMWs use electric power steering and some other accessories instead of pulley driven stuff, so that could be why they always seem to dyno very good also. And apparently the Mazda guys have been getting low dyno numbers recently (6s, RX-8, etc) not because the engines were over-rated, but rather because on the dyno where only two wheels are spinning, the ECU senses something is up and richens the mixture and cuts timing, causing low dyno numbers. That's why the ABS lights were on. There are literally a zillion variables so good loss numbers are always hard to set, but the 17/22 seems to work pretty well, but there are always exceptions.

The specs still have a G35 Sedan auto in the 33xx lb range vs 34xx lb for a Maxima. Another thing that the G35 does not have to deal with are obnoxiously heavy 55 lb/corner 18" wheels. They have 17" standard I think and probably weigh about 50 lb/corner. That's easily a few tenths and mph right there assuming the engines are making the same power between them, which I think they are.

Yes.

Im sure if you paid for the dyno or sent a 6th gen guy the money he would be more than happy to do it. But most people wont wanna pull money outa there pockets just to prove to everyone out there that its making more power than claimed. It would be nice to see a dyno of one, but just chill out and the time will come.

thats awesome!!! who knows the max might have 280 hp.. or it might just be that the gearing is really good on the 5spd auto.. but i have also gotten another 14.6 pass with a high 2.2 60 ft.. here it is some wheel spin 60ft 2.288....330ft 6.253... 1/8 mile 9.512 at 75.23 mph.. and 1/4 mile 14.699 at 94.80 mph.. so who knows.. this time is my second best of that day.. total of 4 runs... the car is i "think" on a cool day good for a 14.5 bone stock. i mean someone is gonna beat my stock time sooner or later in cooler weather.. the temp was 78 degrees and the humidity was 63% when i ran this time..

1000 ft mark on that 14.699 was a 12.328 i forgot to put that in..

Personally, I'm in no dire need to see numbers. I'm just tired of the speculation. People are constantly asking about the whp numbers of the 6th gen. Most shops charge $35-55 to make two pulls. That's really not a lot of money seeing that most of the 6th gen owners bought a 30K car.

Dave

I think that anybody that really truly cares about performance is going for the G35. I think most of the 04 guys here if they saw a dyno would be like "oh that's nice, next thread" hehe but would not actually go and dyno themselves.

We'll see one eventually. Or maybe this thread will grab someone's attention and get them curious enough to actually go get it done.

ill try to dyno mine this week, theres one about 5 minutes away

If there was a dyno around here I would dyno my car just to see what its making. I live in tyler,tx and im about 2 hours from dallas were there are many dynos. There is a Rumor that there is a dyno in this small town around here and I think I know where it is but its not a public dyno. Il try and find out more about it.

Sweet!

If you guys dyno, make sure of the following....

a) that it's a Dynojet dyno
b) that you've got 91+ octane in the tank
c) 3rd gear for the auto, 4th for a 6spd
d) get SAE corrected numbers.

With the 5spd auto, put it into manual mode in 3rd and you should be able to let er rip from about 2k without a kickdown. The gearing is all funky on the auto, but I think 4th and 5th are too tall so 3rd looks like the best option. You could try 4th also, but that pushes nearly 160 mph so I think 3rd is better.


Can't wait to see some hard numbers.

I thought the Maxima was speed limited to around 140MPH?

CM.

Nice work Steve. You like these number games don't you?

You should make sure of people posting the type of Dyno used as they all vary.

Different types of dynos read different numbers.

Dynojet reads very high. A Stang dyno reads a bit lower then a Dynojet.

A Dynapak will read the lowest of them.

bullsh!t.. i knew of a auto 2k2 that was running the same times same 60ft at the track.. so this means that 2k2 has 280 hp?

only a dyno can prove a dyno

Yes, the times are identical between the 2k2 and the 2k4's. But the 2k4's are a lot heavier and have massive 18" rims to spin up so they need a lot more power.

Yes, I agree. Hopefully somebody will soon.

oh yeah, I forgot about that.

So due to gearing that means the auto guys would need to dyno in 3rd because they'll hit the speed limiter before they get to the top of 4th.

how much more do they weigh?

150-200 lb more, and probably another 100 lb worth of effective mass to spin up on the wheels for a 300 lb total difference. a 2k2 auto was still a 32xx lb car. A base 2k4 is in the 34xx lb range.

2002 SE 4AT: 3261 lb w/ 50 lb/corner 17's
2004 SE 5AT: 3473 lb w/ 55 lb/corner 18's

The difference between a 50lb 17" combo and a 55lb 18" combo is about 70 pounds when translated from an intertia to a static weight. So that makes the total effective weight difference nearly 300 pounds.

but this car was a 2k2 SE .. full loaded.. and his best time was 14.3 stock .. basically i am assuming if you put that car through car test its going to show more hp then you guys estimated for the 2k2's

14.3 stock automatic????

completely stock 2k2 auto running 14.3? What were the conditions? And was it repeated? There are a few more guys right behind ga2000 with 04SE autos who just need to work on their launches a bit more. You can't model factory freaks because by definition, they are factory freaks and will not fit any trendlines.

yes 14.3 stock auto.. and a couple 14.4 runs

well that would be the exception and not the rule then. Sorta like GTPs. Most can run 14.6 but a few have been able to get low-14's with them all stock. Who's to say that an 04SE auto will not also get a factory freak low-14?

You just need to make sure that you're comparing the same things. Typical "best stock" times for the 02-03 autos are 14.6-14.7. So far the 04's have one person running 14.6, and one or two more running 14.8 who just haven't had enough practice on their launch yet but will get there. That proves that the cars are more or less equal.

It's tough to make any conclusions about factory freak cars because they defy the norms and aren't really statistically significant. There haven't been any factory freak times yet for an 04 to compare up against. So far these guys are all running about the same times and there is nothing in the 04 timeslip list that really defies the norms.

i think my car will do a 14.4 but i dont think its a freak.. im a freak but not the car lol

lol

Well if you ran a 14.6 in 70-ish weather then it has another few tenths in it if you can run it in some cooler weather like 30-40 degrees.

that is true, maybe the car is good for a 14.4 stock.. one will never know.. im actually to be honest happy i still ahve the fastest time.. "so far" someone will beat em with mods but yeah i can wait lol

I've run 14.66 as my best overall time (but it wasn't my highest trap speed)...my car was virtually gutted and I can guarantee that there was only 2 gallons of gas left. I drove it to the track sucking fumes But, since I have the GLE (which is a bit heavier; and my 215lb a$$ in the car), I have a weight disadvantage I wonder how fast I can drop 50 pounds...

lol 02 through 04 run about the same. the 04 has more top end i think

the 05 legacy GT will probably spank it stock without a doubt sube has its guns aimed right at the maxima awd will launch better everytime LOL you will definately see my rear bumper alot when i buy mine not to even mention the possibility of any mods(of which there are many) remember the sti ??? All-wheel drive or 4WD seems to be essential these days when it comes to winning World Championship rallies !! LOL http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/tw/awdsedans.htm

Thats just great, in the future, when the car actually exists, or better yet when you actually own it, i'm sure Steve will whip up a nice comparison for us. Until then, please do not spam this very interesting thread with your nocturnal emissions or should I call them premature ejaculations . IOW your post is completely

Have a nice day

oh lets see if this makes sense i started a thread about the 2005 legacy and ga2000 chimes in with" its a POS" and im being called by you that my post is off topic??? its a shame that one can not bring up the topic and that you get so offended at the idea of up-coming competition and the discussion of the future of the maxi or maybe your just a little upset because you just bought one?? have a nice day

Sorry,

Have a 98 GXE THAT I OWN, no payments, no wet dreams, no waiting and I'm sorry but this is not THAT thread that you started and your post IS off-topic and this 2005 vehicle is NOT competition because it is NOT available for purchase. Armageddon may come before this car is ever available to you and if you DID have it today, it would not make your post any more relevant. I am done as I am now off-topic. Kthnxbye.


six...........

No its ashame that you had to bring it into another thread and waste precious web-server space. Grow up

bro i was kidding ive seen pics of it its nice, and it has awd big time advantage "on the launch" i saw something like 13.8 stock for it but i guess thats if u rev the **** out of it, 6000 rpm launch, again sorry bro i was kidding around

WTF does this thread have to do with a SUBARU LEGACY?

Stop spamming up threads about the Legacy or I'm just going to ban you. Donate $20 and you can get access to the OFF-TOPIC forum and talk about the new Legacy all you want. YOU have a nice day now.