MODs Torque vs Horsepower
04-12-2005, 04:19 AM
#1
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MODs Torque vs Horsepower
Many members here have added mods such as a cold air intake, combined with Y-pipes and other exhauston mods, underdrive pulleys etc.
1. Do you really notice a performance difference? I have heard that you lose torque when you gain horsepower by intake and exhaust upgrades.
2. What has been your experience?
3. I have also read hat the underdrive pulley is the best single mod (but can affect the electrical system if you have a large stereo.) How has underdrive pulley affected your Max's performance?
1. Do you really notice a performance difference? I have heard that you lose torque when you gain horsepower by intake and exhaust upgrades.
2. What has been your experience?
3. I have also read hat the underdrive pulley is the best single mod (but can affect the electrical system if you have a large stereo.) How has underdrive pulley affected your Max's performance?
04-12-2005, 09:07 PM
#2
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Okay 71 view and no replies? Come out come out, all you modified Maxima owners. 
1. Did you really notice a performance difference with a CAI and Y-pipe setup? I have heard that you lose torque when you gain horsepower by intake and exhaust upgrades. What has been your experience?
I don't want to modify a car and get no real performance improvement.
3. I have also read hat the underdrive pulley is the best single mod (but can affect the electrical system if you have a large stereo.) How has underdrive pulley affected your Max's performance?
There was a thread about a 4-6 weeks ago where someone was requesting to see Dyno's posted for mods. Maybe someone can just point me to the link if they know where it is.
Thanks.
1. Did you really notice a performance difference with a CAI and Y-pipe setup? I have heard that you lose torque when you gain horsepower by intake and exhaust upgrades. What has been your experience?
I don't want to modify a car and get no real performance improvement.
3. I have also read hat the underdrive pulley is the best single mod (but can affect the electrical system if you have a large stereo.) How has underdrive pulley affected your Max's performance?
There was a thread about a 4-6 weeks ago where someone was requesting to see Dyno's posted for mods. Maybe someone can just point me to the link if they know where it is.
Thanks.
04-12-2005, 09:14 PM
#3
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1. You probably won't feel much difference if you do those individually. If you do them all at the same time, you'll know how much of an increase they add as a sum. You do not lose torque when you gain hp. You lose torque when you have poorly designed products.
2. I've modified my past 3 cars and went the naturally aspirated route. Don't expect a super racing machine after breather/exhaust parts.
3. Underdrive pulleys do spin the alternator a little less than the stock pulley. Most companies take this into account when designing their underdrive pulleys. The real benefit of these is the reduction of the weight, and not completely dependent on the size of the pulley itself. It is a great modification that will show a better response.
2. I've modified my past 3 cars and went the naturally aspirated route. Don't expect a super racing machine after breather/exhaust parts.
3. Underdrive pulleys do spin the alternator a little less than the stock pulley. Most companies take this into account when designing their underdrive pulleys. The real benefit of these is the reduction of the weight, and not completely dependent on the size of the pulley itself. It is a great modification that will show a better response.
04-12-2005, 09:15 PM
#4
I'm a HP Mod myself 
but I'm too poor to modify.
um, why didn't you find that thread and resurrect it? apparently no one has dynoed their mods since then. so how could they reply. patience, at least wait a day to bump.
but I'm too poor to modify.
um, why didn't you find that thread and resurrect it? apparently no one has dynoed their mods since then. so how could they reply. patience, at least wait a day to bump.
04-12-2005, 09:58 PM
#5
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Thanks Nismo, I appreciate the feedback. so you haven't modified your Max? I haven't done a single thing to mine yet. I will chrome dip the rims, tint the window first.
I will try to find that thread too.
Anyone else?
I will try to find that thread too.
Anyone else?
04-12-2005, 11:51 PM
#6
I noticed a difference at the top end when I put on a y pipe and Stillen intake. I was surprised to feel a difference in the bottom end when I replaced my stock rims with much lighter weight bronze colored rims. I have an underdrive pulley sitting in the trunk, to be installed later.
04-13-2005, 12:08 AM
#7
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Thanks Deus, so you noticed a top end gain for better air flow. Did you notice a "bottom end loss" because of it as well. Like I said I've read that the loss of back pressure causes a loss of torque which I assume means less pulling power at the take off. Is that correct?
I bet your excited to get that underdrive pulley on. Cool Let us know how that works out.
I bet your excited to get that underdrive pulley on. Cool Let us know how that works out.
04-13-2005, 03:51 AM
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This wasn't quite the link I was looking for but may be relevant. http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=390731
I found this post in there
Interesting. 
I found this post in there
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Like I said in some of those posts you refer to, I completely see a benefit in personalizing the car ... it's trying to make a quarter-mile'er, a race car, a ricer (ie; bigass wings)... trying to race mustangs, etc. with a Max is all kinda silly. Someone mentioned AMG's and the like, you think they build those for 1/4 times? Nope, they build 'em to be fast, comfortable highway cruisers.. in my mind what Nissan has in mind for the Max. Modding a car to make it do what it was intended for.. better, makes sense.
I am interested in modding, have been playing with cars just about the amount of time you've been alive (ugg). It's just throwing money after intakes, mufflers, etc (the most common mods) will do nothing but make you feel good, and that's cool, but seeing threads about how much "better" their Max is due to mods like that (from a performance standpoint) misleads a lot of people into believing they are suddenly going to spank a 5 series because they mounted an expensive piece of pipe with a filter on the end... there are a lot of folks tossing money down the toilet (those that are in it for performance gains).
Suspension mods, simply lowering for looks or going with coil overs for better ride, better tires, etc. all makes perfect sense as there are definate advantages to those mods. Body kits, same thing, looks good to the owner, makes the owner feel good. Intakes? If you just want the sound and the looks with hood up... right-on, by all means get one and live happily ever-after. Same thing with mufflers. It's the "I got 12hp from the intake, plus 12Hp from the mufflers and 12 HP from the pully, so I added 36 hp" mentality that's way off base. Unless you mod the intake/exhaust from front to back, every bit of it using tested flow characteristics, you will more than likey just decrease the power somewhere along the curve (typically off the bottom).
Who has seen a dyno with just an intake? If joe consumer actually saw one, would they spend the money (for performance)? No (unless of course sitting around with the hood up or taking pics for the web is important). They'd see a minute increase in HP and a LOSS of torque. The mfg's of these intakes know all to well very few will add the intake and then pay to dyno it. They rely on that.
The bottom line, I have nothing against modding, it's a good time, makes the car "your's", theres some really creative stuff going on, but when theres a ton of voodoo being spewed, it bothers me.
I suppose I really should stop posting, no one wants to hear someone's opinion if it means the *possibility* that they wasted their hard earned dollars. Either because they didn't get the performance they were hoping for, or because they need to keep-up with all the other cars on the forum.
I am interested in modding, have been playing with cars just about the amount of time you've been alive (ugg). It's just throwing money after intakes, mufflers, etc (the most common mods) will do nothing but make you feel good, and that's cool, but seeing threads about how much "better" their Max is due to mods like that (from a performance standpoint) misleads a lot of people into believing they are suddenly going to spank a 5 series because they mounted an expensive piece of pipe with a filter on the end... there are a lot of folks tossing money down the toilet (those that are in it for performance gains).
Suspension mods, simply lowering for looks or going with coil overs for better ride, better tires, etc. all makes perfect sense as there are definate advantages to those mods. Body kits, same thing, looks good to the owner, makes the owner feel good. Intakes? If you just want the sound and the looks with hood up... right-on, by all means get one and live happily ever-after. Same thing with mufflers. It's the "I got 12hp from the intake, plus 12Hp from the mufflers and 12 HP from the pully, so I added 36 hp" mentality that's way off base. Unless you mod the intake/exhaust from front to back, every bit of it using tested flow characteristics, you will more than likey just decrease the power somewhere along the curve (typically off the bottom).
Who has seen a dyno with just an intake? If joe consumer actually saw one, would they spend the money (for performance)? No (unless of course sitting around with the hood up or taking pics for the web is important). They'd see a minute increase in HP and a LOSS of torque. The mfg's of these intakes know all to well very few will add the intake and then pay to dyno it. They rely on that.
The bottom line, I have nothing against modding, it's a good time, makes the car "your's", theres some really creative stuff going on, but when theres a ton of voodoo being spewed, it bothers me.
I suppose I really should stop posting, no one wants to hear someone's opinion if it means the *possibility* that they wasted their hard earned dollars. Either because they didn't get the performance they were hoping for, or because they need to keep-up with all the other cars on the forum.
04-13-2005, 03:25 PM
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There is no need for backpressure in any exhaust system. Who wants exhaust gasses trapped from escaping? When you have too wide of a pipe, the exhaust gases cool down and become more dense than the hot exhaust right at the exhaust manifold. That in turn becomes like a restriction.. There is no need for back pressure in any application, but if you go too wide of a pipe, it will cool too quickly and that's more work for the engine.
04-13-2005, 03:37 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by Apollos2
This wasn't quite the link I was looking for but may be relevant. http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=390731
I found this post in there
Interesting.
I found this post in there
Interesting.
04-13-2005, 03:40 PM
#12
Originally Posted by DeusExMaxima
I noticed a difference at the top end when I put on a y pipe and Stillen intake. I was surprised to feel a difference in the bottom end when I replaced my stock rims with much lighter weight bronze colored rims. I have an underdrive pulley sitting in the trunk, to be installed later.
04-13-2005, 06:35 PM
#14
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Opinions are one thing, but please state why my info is wrong? Don't be quick to discredit some useful information because you believe otherwise.
Believe what you will, but please find credible information that states why backpressure is a good thing for any n/a motor. The reason we have our exhaust pipes is for:
1. pass exhaust gas through the cat for emissions
2. direct the exhaust through some sound dampening medium such as a muffler
Why do pro drag cars run open headers/collectors? Forcing exhaust out of a motor due to back pressure is an engine pumping loss. I could go further into this in terms of cam shaft lumps and valve overlap, but anybody should do their own research if they would like to know.
Thanks
Believe what you will, but please find credible information that states why backpressure is a good thing for any n/a motor. The reason we have our exhaust pipes is for:
1. pass exhaust gas through the cat for emissions
2. direct the exhaust through some sound dampening medium such as a muffler
Why do pro drag cars run open headers/collectors? Forcing exhaust out of a motor due to back pressure is an engine pumping loss. I could go further into this in terms of cam shaft lumps and valve overlap, but anybody should do their own research if they would like to know.
Thanks
04-13-2005, 10:47 PM
#15
HP = TQ*(RPM/5252)
I do all the proven cheap mods and spend big $$$ only when I know they're dyno proven (headers) Did the GAB intake mod and gained 9whp from it for .$05. Mods aren't cumulative, but they add/take away power in different parts of the curve, thus adding more adrea under the curve(ideal), as peak numbers don't mean that much when the area under the curve is essentially more important.
When you state you lose torque, but gain horsepower, that's an oxymoron, because as the function states, it's mathematically impossible to do at the same time (losehp/losetq). You amy be referring that you lose low rpm hp and gain high rpm power/tq.
As for your little exhaust discussion/debate, maintaining exhaust gas velocity is key.
I don't know where you heard that an underdrive pulley is the best single mod, but for Maximas, typically, they don't add much if any HP. I've never put one on any of my Maximas..
Spend time in the dyno forum to learn more.
I do all the proven cheap mods and spend big $$$ only when I know they're dyno proven (headers) Did the GAB intake mod and gained 9whp from it for .$05. Mods aren't cumulative, but they add/take away power in different parts of the curve, thus adding more adrea under the curve(ideal), as peak numbers don't mean that much when the area under the curve is essentially more important.
When you state you lose torque, but gain horsepower, that's an oxymoron, because as the function states, it's mathematically impossible to do at the same time (losehp/losetq). You amy be referring that you lose low rpm hp and gain high rpm power/tq.
As for your little exhaust discussion/debate, maintaining exhaust gas velocity is key.
I don't know where you heard that an underdrive pulley is the best single mod, but for Maximas, typically, they don't add much if any HP. I've never put one on any of my Maximas..
Spend time in the dyno forum to learn more.
04-14-2005, 05:30 AM
#16
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Correction, I never stated that the underdrive pulley was the "best single mod".
They are great in terms of removing unsprung weight, which any car can use.
Yes, a dyno plot is great when you increase the area under the curve. No need to bring up high school calculus, but the area under the curve is increased by increasing the numbers.
The exhaust thing is one of those long time debated topics. Maintainingg gas velocity is an issue because we have to have pipes. If we didn't, velocity would be optimal right out of the motor. More pipe, more variables involved. I just stated why back pressure is not needed in any n/a motor.
They are great in terms of removing unsprung weight, which any car can use.
Yes, a dyno plot is great when you increase the area under the curve. No need to bring up high school calculus, but the area under the curve is increased by increasing the numbers.
The exhaust thing is one of those long time debated topics. Maintainingg gas velocity is an issue because we have to have pipes. If we didn't, velocity would be optimal right out of the motor. More pipe, more variables involved. I just stated why back pressure is not needed in any n/a motor.
04-14-2005, 06:05 AM
#17
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Why do pro drag cars run open headers/collectors?
If you are going for max numbers, no matter how useful they are, by all means, go with the fattest, shortest intake/exhaust you can get.
To make sure we are all on the same page, when I say "lose torque", I mean a drop in torque in the lower rpms, not a loss of total torque. In the real world, WHERE the torque is in the curve is important. I'll take less in numbers in a usable RPM range over a few more HP at 5,500.
04-14-2005, 07:04 AM
#18
Originally Posted by SLuxury
Correction, I never stated that the underdrive pulley was the "best single mod".
They are great in terms of removing unsprung weight, which any car can use.
They are great in terms of removing unsprung weight, which any car can use.
I was jsut trying to ge tthe concept more clear to members who didn't have the insight, so high school calc has nothing to do with it, I was just trying the other members on the board familiar with the concept of HP.
02-19-2006, 08:23 PM
#19
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well I pulled this thread out of the dead because today at work, I was talking to the guy who runs my service department at my dealership. The convo started because he seen that I added the greddy sp2 to my car. I was asking him seriosly if there were gains due to this, because honestly I dont feel crap, and Ive also done y pipe and berk intake.
He then showed me that the reason for the design in the stock exhuast where the crimps are located is to create just enough back pressure that it doesnt restrict the engine but rather causes the gas to travel faster through the pipe. He said upgradding the exhuast is definatly not a bad thing and could add power to the car, but only if you do it rite. Just because its bigger doesnt mean your getting a better 1/4 time. He was then explaining me that upgrading to a pipe thats larger but not to big will 100% help, but too big will just take away from the low end grunt of the car. In my case I did gain power and its on the top end and im not saying this because he told me this, im saying because for the last 3 months its been urking me, and everytime I drive a bonestock maxima at my dealership it always feels more jumpy off the line than mine;honestly the top end power gain I dont need I'm not driving on the autobahn anytime soon. I dont really know what to make of all this besides that its my first modding experience with a car, and I can definatly say that you learn from your mistakes.
By the way I also did my own research on google about backpressure and other related subjects, and 80% of the crap I read, the guy was telling me earlier that day, so he was definatly not just flappin.
He then showed me that the reason for the design in the stock exhuast where the crimps are located is to create just enough back pressure that it doesnt restrict the engine but rather causes the gas to travel faster through the pipe. He said upgradding the exhuast is definatly not a bad thing and could add power to the car, but only if you do it rite. Just because its bigger doesnt mean your getting a better 1/4 time. He was then explaining me that upgrading to a pipe thats larger but not to big will 100% help, but too big will just take away from the low end grunt of the car. In my case I did gain power and its on the top end and im not saying this because he told me this, im saying because for the last 3 months its been urking me, and everytime I drive a bonestock maxima at my dealership it always feels more jumpy off the line than mine;honestly the top end power gain I dont need I'm not driving on the autobahn anytime soon. I dont really know what to make of all this besides that its my first modding experience with a car, and I can definatly say that you learn from your mistakes.
By the way I also did my own research on google about backpressure and other related subjects, and 80% of the crap I read, the guy was telling me earlier that day, so he was definatly not just flappin.
02-19-2006, 08:32 PM
#21
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in plain english, wtf is the point in spending $1000 plus in mods when all it really does it give you a sound and a look. If thats the case everyone should just slap an intake on and 50 dolla exhuast tips.
02-20-2006, 07:42 AM
#22
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The only mods I have are AEM intake and Magnaflow single tip mufflers. I didn't notice any power loss, from low to high end. I actually raced a G35 and had over a car length ahead in 1st and 2nd gear(he came back in 3rd).
02-20-2006, 09:08 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by logik05se
well..... ..for the last 3 months its been urking me, and everytime I drive a bonestock maxima at my dealership it always feels more jumpy off the line than mine;honestly the top end power gain I dont need .....
Hi Logik,
You know, it seems to me that the Maxima has plenty of low end torque, so much that I may be willing to trade some of that for a little more top end hp.
The reason I say that, is because if I punch it from a dead stop, I can get some serious tire spin before the car actually takes off. I've heard the a pulley upgrade adds to the wheels spin problem, does that mean a torque gain? Would they offest each other? (Maybe this is the wrong way to think about it, I don't know)
The Fujita CAI that Tek just tested dyno'ed out at 11hp gain. I don't know what happened to the torque, maybe he will post the dyno sheet. If I had the money today, I would research an intake an buy one. I'm not that worried about the low end torque loss anymore.
02-20-2006, 11:22 AM
#24
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From the experience of my butt on my 4th gen:
-JWT Pop Charger cone filter - lost low RPM power probably b/c of breathing hot engine air or short tubing; I sold it and replaced with TPR cold air intake.
High RPM power still drops off b/c the lack of variable intake.
-Greddy full catback exhaust -> lost low RPM power b/c of backpressure lost, but gained power beyond 4k RPM. I do lots of city driving so need it at the low RPM. Sold it and replaced it with 5th gen muffler with adaptive technology.
For my 6th gen, it has variable intake so all I need is the K&N drop in filter.
I didn't go with cold air intake b/c I hate opening the wheel well fender to access the filter. And no longer fear of sucking in deep puddles of water.
My best mod is still RSB and FSTB b/c they don't have to be replaced or maintained.
-JWT Pop Charger cone filter - lost low RPM power probably b/c of breathing hot engine air or short tubing; I sold it and replaced with TPR cold air intake.
High RPM power still drops off b/c the lack of variable intake.
-Greddy full catback exhaust -> lost low RPM power b/c of backpressure lost, but gained power beyond 4k RPM. I do lots of city driving so need it at the low RPM. Sold it and replaced it with 5th gen muffler with adaptive technology.
For my 6th gen, it has variable intake so all I need is the K&N drop in filter.
I didn't go with cold air intake b/c I hate opening the wheel well fender to access the filter. And no longer fear of sucking in deep puddles of water.
My best mod is still RSB and FSTB b/c they don't have to be replaced or maintained.
02-20-2006, 11:34 AM
#25
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I’m far from an expert in thermo or fluid dynamics, but I’ll risk adding my two cents to this conversation about exhaust system back pressure. My understanding is that engineers attempt to achieve the best balance between back pressure, exhaust gas velocity, valve overlap, and rpm. To some degree, all camshafts have valve overlap, which means that for a split second, the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. This occurs at the beginning of the intake stroke. (Variable valve timing really helps, but the problem still exits.)
As the piston starts its down motion and creates the vacuum that draws in the air from the intake manifold, while the exhaust valve is still open during the overlap period, it actually draws back in a little air from the exhaust manifold. This is undesirable because the exhaust gas has essentially no oxygen. This hurts power (torque).
To minimize drawing in the exhaust gas, the engineers want the exhaust fumes to move far down the exhaust manifold as quickly as possible. The farther downstream the gasses get, the less they get pulled back into the cylinder. That requires speed.
The speed that gasses move through a tube (exhaust manifold- system) is a direct function of its diameter and shape. Air in a thick tube moves at a slower speed than air through a thin tube. (Try to blow out a candle by blowing though a toilet paper roll and through a straw and you know what I mean. The air moves faster through the straw.)
At low rpms, the pistons move slowly and push the air out slowly. Exhaust velocity is naturally slow and the fumes remain in the upper part of the exhaust system (relatively close to the exhaust valve). This makes it easy for that air to get drawn back into the cylinder during the overlap period.
A “low back pressure” exhaust system amplifies the problem, hurting low rpm power. A “thinner” exhaust system would get the exhaust fumes downstream quickly. That would reduce the amount of fumes drawn back into the engine and improve power. At low rpms that is good. But as the rpms rise, the back pressure associated with the thinner tube will hurt the engine’s power.
At low rpms, the back pressure is beneficial because it implies higher exhaust gas velocity. Back pressure is always bad. But if you use the back pressure to improve the exhaust velocity, the gains associated with the higher velocity may outweigh the losses associated with the backpressure.
As the piston starts its down motion and creates the vacuum that draws in the air from the intake manifold, while the exhaust valve is still open during the overlap period, it actually draws back in a little air from the exhaust manifold. This is undesirable because the exhaust gas has essentially no oxygen. This hurts power (torque).
To minimize drawing in the exhaust gas, the engineers want the exhaust fumes to move far down the exhaust manifold as quickly as possible. The farther downstream the gasses get, the less they get pulled back into the cylinder. That requires speed.
The speed that gasses move through a tube (exhaust manifold- system) is a direct function of its diameter and shape. Air in a thick tube moves at a slower speed than air through a thin tube. (Try to blow out a candle by blowing though a toilet paper roll and through a straw and you know what I mean. The air moves faster through the straw.)
At low rpms, the pistons move slowly and push the air out slowly. Exhaust velocity is naturally slow and the fumes remain in the upper part of the exhaust system (relatively close to the exhaust valve). This makes it easy for that air to get drawn back into the cylinder during the overlap period.
A “low back pressure” exhaust system amplifies the problem, hurting low rpm power. A “thinner” exhaust system would get the exhaust fumes downstream quickly. That would reduce the amount of fumes drawn back into the engine and improve power. At low rpms that is good. But as the rpms rise, the back pressure associated with the thinner tube will hurt the engine’s power.
At low rpms, the back pressure is beneficial because it implies higher exhaust gas velocity. Back pressure is always bad. But if you use the back pressure to improve the exhaust velocity, the gains associated with the higher velocity may outweigh the losses associated with the backpressure.
02-20-2006, 04:13 PM
#26
I was stock and just installed the intake as ya'll saw, I get a better pedal and acceleration all the way up the rpms. I did loose some TQ, but It feels alot better.
for the UDP (pulley) I read a mod article on a 3.5 altima that they installed it on, and they noticed no change in volt power throughout the car. didn't budge at all..
I think the best mods would be the ones that add fuel to the engine, nos, ECU ect... I'm also liking the headers, those prob do the most, and I will try and prove that on saturday hopefully..
for the UDP (pulley) I read a mod article on a 3.5 altima that they installed it on, and they noticed no change in volt power throughout the car. didn't budge at all..
I think the best mods would be the ones that add fuel to the engine, nos, ECU ect... I'm also liking the headers, those prob do the most, and I will try and prove that on saturday hopefully..
02-20-2006, 05:00 PM
#27
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MDS what you said is exactly what I was told, almost in those exact words....albert what you said actually had me thinking too...I do not want to change back to the stock intake because I love the sound my intake makes. But I do have the berk which isnt a true cold air so I've been thinking of changing to a true cold air. Now that you just posted that I'm thinking about it even more. Does anybody think this will help at all? And tek as far as you trying with this ECU, that is the one mod that I really have some faith in for power. You def have my vote.
02-21-2006, 11:50 AM
#28
Logic when we raced we were dead even.. BUT U DO HAVE HEAVY *** 18 inch chrome rims... i guarentee if we had the same tire combo u would have at least a car length on me!!! def.. i def think your car is faster and besids you have a short ram like u said not a cold air... ur whip is nice sounds great loox great... downgrade to smaller lighter wheel/tire package.....
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