To VDC or not to VDC, that is the question
05-11-2005, 02:06 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
To VDC or not to VDC, that is the question
I originally posted this in the torque steer thread, but never got any feedback. Since I can now post new threads, I thought this desevered it's own thread. Really looking for some feedback from 2004 owners without the TCS standard and some 2004/2005 owners with the VDC/TCS
option.
Call me crazy if you will, but I think the TCS and VDC actually contribute to some of the handling/torque steer problems with the Max.. I say this with a straight face as I have two Max's both early production 2005's that did not come with TCS as standard equipment. My wife's has no TCS/VDC and mine has the TCS/VDC option package on it. Just drove hers this weekend as a comparison to mine and find the torque steer and understeer in her car much less than mine when the VDC/TCS is engaged. Just to see if I was in my right mind, I turned off my VDC/TCS for most of my driving for the past couple of days and find that the torque steer/understeer in mine is less with the VDC/TCS turned off. Strange. Knowing what I know now, I'll probably drive with the VDC/TCS turned off for most of my driving and turn it on when it rains. To bad that it comes on every time you start the car and have to turn it off each time. Anybody else feel the way I do about this VDC/TCS option, or, am I crazy? Just seem to feel the car actually handles the torque better with VDC off and find it only useful for slippery rainy or snowy conditions. (don't need for snow, only snow's a couple of inches every 20 years of so in south Texas)
option.
Call me crazy if you will, but I think the TCS and VDC actually contribute to some of the handling/torque steer problems with the Max.. I say this with a straight face as I have two Max's both early production 2005's that did not come with TCS as standard equipment. My wife's has no TCS/VDC and mine has the TCS/VDC option package on it. Just drove hers this weekend as a comparison to mine and find the torque steer and understeer in her car much less than mine when the VDC/TCS is engaged. Just to see if I was in my right mind, I turned off my VDC/TCS for most of my driving for the past couple of days and find that the torque steer/understeer in mine is less with the VDC/TCS turned off. Strange. Knowing what I know now, I'll probably drive with the VDC/TCS turned off for most of my driving and turn it on when it rains. To bad that it comes on every time you start the car and have to turn it off each time. Anybody else feel the way I do about this VDC/TCS option, or, am I crazy? Just seem to feel the car actually handles the torque better with VDC off and find it only useful for slippery rainy or snowy conditions. (don't need for snow, only snow's a couple of inches every 20 years of so in south Texas)
05-11-2005, 03:19 PM
#3
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
Tek-niq,
I guess it's subjective to how you drive. Personally, I'm turning it off except when it rains as the Goodyear RSA's stink in the rain. Since this car had been in inventory a while when I bought it, the dealer and I split the $900 dollar difference. For you guys in the great white north country, it's probably a very valuable option for your snowy winters, but here in south Texas I only see the value when we are in monsoon season. Like I said, wife's 2005 was made prior to November 2004 so there was not even TCS standard as was done starting with November 2004 production. As I drive both cars, I honestly feel that while the VDC/TCS package may be a saftey feature when you get yourself into a bad situation, the car actually handles better as far as torque steer and understeer without the VDC/TCS engaged. Again, just my personal opinion, but I drive my cars and am aware of road conditions and surroundings at all times.
I guess it's subjective to how you drive. Personally, I'm turning it off except when it rains as the Goodyear RSA's stink in the rain. Since this car had been in inventory a while when I bought it, the dealer and I split the $900 dollar difference. For you guys in the great white north country, it's probably a very valuable option for your snowy winters, but here in south Texas I only see the value when we are in monsoon season. Like I said, wife's 2005 was made prior to November 2004 so there was not even TCS standard as was done starting with November 2004 production. As I drive both cars, I honestly feel that while the VDC/TCS package may be a saftey feature when you get yourself into a bad situation, the car actually handles better as far as torque steer and understeer without the VDC/TCS engaged. Again, just my personal opinion, but I drive my cars and am aware of road conditions and surroundings at all times.
05-11-2005, 05:50 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 199
My 05 SE came with the TCS as standard but I do not have the VDC though.
However, I have from time to time turned off the TCS and noticed similar results in handling as you mentioned. There is at least to me a noticeable difference with it off.
However, I have from time to time turned off the TCS and noticed similar results in handling as you mentioned. There is at least to me a noticeable difference with it off.
05-11-2005, 07:13 PM
#5
well i'd still like to have it even if i what you say is true and i decided to turn it off everyday except for rain and snow.
I wonder if lightonthehill tested this like he said since he couldn't detect torque steer with it on. 2 opposite opinions, but SE vs. SL may contribute
either way, I know when I really punch it (unequipped w/ VDC) there is crazy torque, but nothing to complain about.
I wonder if lightonthehill tested this like he said since he couldn't detect torque steer with it on. 2 opposite opinions, but SE vs. SL may contribute
either way, I know when I really punch it (unequipped w/ VDC) there is crazy torque, but nothing to complain about.
05-11-2005, 09:04 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 352
I too feel the weirdness. I bought the TCS/VDC package in my '04. Sometimes I do a fast tight right turn into a parking lot, I can hear very harsh "cracks...cracks" sounds in the front brakes. Sometimes when I brake hard to slow down and then decide to change lane at the same time, I can feel the wheels braked "randomly" and the car feel very weird (like each is running over a series of fox holes). The car is normal if I drive slower doing the same things.
When accelerating or braking fast and the roads arenot smooth, I feel a little weird. But the whole time I don't think it cause any danger, maybe the opposite, but weird. I will try to turn VDC/TCS off and see more closely. Last time I tried, the torque steer is the same.
When accelerating or braking fast and the roads arenot smooth, I feel a little weird. But the whole time I don't think it cause any danger, maybe the opposite, but weird. I will try to turn VDC/TCS off and see more closely. Last time I tried, the torque steer is the same.
05-11-2005, 09:56 PM
#7
i waited an extra month to get VDC on my max. i believe it can help in not loosing control even when its not raining such as sudden lane changes on the highway.
I posted this article on another thread but incase you missed it, its a pretty good read:
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/pf/autos/what_is_esc/
I posted this article on another thread but incase you missed it, its a pretty good read:
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/pf/autos/what_is_esc/
05-11-2005, 11:22 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
I waited many months for my dealer to get exactly the car I wanted, which was with TCS and ESPECIALLY VDC.
It seems several here are sort of lumping these two features into the same 'operating area'. That is incorrect.
TCS is most helpful in inclimate weather (especially when the tires have trouble gripping).
VDC (vehicle dynamic control) is Nissan's version of stability control, and is most useful at speed on dry roads (although it can also help in inclimate conditions). It is supposed to operate only when it detects the vehicle approaching a possible out-of-control condition.
In the period between 1949 and around 1980, I had a few dozen situations where my vehicle entered a spin. Each time, I lost control of my vehicle because the steering system reaction was not fast enough to keep up with my rapid-fire steering corrections. This was especially true with early power steering systems. The result each time was a series of fishtails, (back end swinging rapidly between left and right), followed by a trip into the ditch or up the bank.
Stability control (VDC) is designed to prevent this fishtailing and help the driver regain control of the vehicle. Test drivers who have tried the VDC on the 6th gen say it really works. They are not able to fishtail the vehicle.
I have not tried any tests to determine if torque is affected by the TCS system, but I am currently testing my '04 SL to see if VDC affects torque. So far I detect little difference. With VDC on, I have no torque steer. With VDC off, sometimes I feel there might be just a tinge of torque, but very little.
I am waiting for a situation where I can be somewhat more aggressive with my testing (well out of sight of the county mounties) to reach a more definitive result.
In the meantime, after reading torque posts here for two years, I am beginning to have the impression one could run two 6th gen Maximas with exactly the same equipment thru an agressive test and one car might have rather noticable torque steer and the other might not. Doesn't make sense, but there might be some explanation that escapes me.
For months, I felt newcomers to the Maxima might be more sensitive to torque steer, while oldtimers like me who have been driving Maximas for over twenty years may have grown so accustomed to it that we don't notice it. As a result, I began watching for it when I drove, but was not able to detect torque steer in either my 2000 SE or 2004 SL.
It may be that this situation is sort of like the infamous steering wheel vibration that haunts some 6th gens, but not others.
It seems several here are sort of lumping these two features into the same 'operating area'. That is incorrect.
TCS is most helpful in inclimate weather (especially when the tires have trouble gripping).
VDC (vehicle dynamic control) is Nissan's version of stability control, and is most useful at speed on dry roads (although it can also help in inclimate conditions). It is supposed to operate only when it detects the vehicle approaching a possible out-of-control condition.
In the period between 1949 and around 1980, I had a few dozen situations where my vehicle entered a spin. Each time, I lost control of my vehicle because the steering system reaction was not fast enough to keep up with my rapid-fire steering corrections. This was especially true with early power steering systems. The result each time was a series of fishtails, (back end swinging rapidly between left and right), followed by a trip into the ditch or up the bank.
Stability control (VDC) is designed to prevent this fishtailing and help the driver regain control of the vehicle. Test drivers who have tried the VDC on the 6th gen say it really works. They are not able to fishtail the vehicle.
I have not tried any tests to determine if torque is affected by the TCS system, but I am currently testing my '04 SL to see if VDC affects torque. So far I detect little difference. With VDC on, I have no torque steer. With VDC off, sometimes I feel there might be just a tinge of torque, but very little.
I am waiting for a situation where I can be somewhat more aggressive with my testing (well out of sight of the county mounties) to reach a more definitive result.
In the meantime, after reading torque posts here for two years, I am beginning to have the impression one could run two 6th gen Maximas with exactly the same equipment thru an agressive test and one car might have rather noticable torque steer and the other might not. Doesn't make sense, but there might be some explanation that escapes me.
For months, I felt newcomers to the Maxima might be more sensitive to torque steer, while oldtimers like me who have been driving Maximas for over twenty years may have grown so accustomed to it that we don't notice it. As a result, I began watching for it when I drove, but was not able to detect torque steer in either my 2000 SE or 2004 SL.
It may be that this situation is sort of like the infamous steering wheel vibration that haunts some 6th gens, but not others.
05-12-2005, 09:30 AM
#10
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
I continued my experiment today splitting my drive time with VDC on and VDC off. Again, I may be crazy, but the car handles differently with the VDC off. I do a lot of city type driving on bad roads and the car handles better with less torque steer and understeer with the VDC off. With the VDC on, especially on turns on bad pavement, the car has a definite tendancy to grab during acceleration and continue to "plow" into the turn. This phenomenon does not appear to occur with the VDC off. I even notice considerably less torque steer during "jackrabbitt" starts off the line with the VDC off. Yes, I know it's a great saftey feature, but for everyday city type driving I like how the car handles better with the VDC off. Do I intend to use the VDC, yes, but only on rainy days (no snow in south Texas) and maybe for long distance highway travel where I might have to perform an avoidance manuver to avoid an accident. Again, call me crazy, but to me it's like driving two different cars depending on the VDC setting. I'm an older person and have driven many, many cars, both front and rear wheel drive and I can definately feel a difference. Alas, to each their own, as everybody views saftey and everyday drivablility differently, but for my purposes the VDC will be off for most of my daily driving.
05-12-2005, 10:15 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
jinsatx - As I understand VDC, I would not see any great advantage to having it on in normal city driving on dry roads, even if it had no effect on torque steering. I am surprised to see that (at least in your Maxima) it actually seems to be detrimental to torque steering in city driving.
I may try to see if VDC has that effect in my Maxima. I had been concentrating on testing at highway speeds.
I may try to see if VDC has that effect in my Maxima. I had been concentrating on testing at highway speeds.
05-12-2005, 11:27 PM
#12
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
lightonthehill,
I will be interested in your results. I've found on turns, especially on un-even roads, that there is a tendency of the vdc/tcs to come into play and create an annoying, at least to me, oversteer effect during accelaration. Also, off a dead stop, if you mash the accelerator wth the vdc/tcs on there is more torque steer "grab" than there is with the vdc/tcs off. If you have been testing on the highway, I'm sure you don't notice much difference as you keep a constant speed. However, in everyday city driving with bad streets and stop and go traffic and many turns into traffic where you are required to accelerate quickly, there is a definite difference. Again, please let me know the results of your tests so I don't think I'm going crazy.
I will be interested in your results. I've found on turns, especially on un-even roads, that there is a tendency of the vdc/tcs to come into play and create an annoying, at least to me, oversteer effect during accelaration. Also, off a dead stop, if you mash the accelerator wth the vdc/tcs on there is more torque steer "grab" than there is with the vdc/tcs off. If you have been testing on the highway, I'm sure you don't notice much difference as you keep a constant speed. However, in everyday city driving with bad streets and stop and go traffic and many turns into traffic where you are required to accelerate quickly, there is a definite difference. Again, please let me know the results of your tests so I don't think I'm going crazy.
05-13-2005, 01:06 AM
#13
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 840
Originally Posted by jinsatx
However, in everyday city driving with bad streets and stop and go traffic and many turns into traffic where you are required to accelerate quickly, there is a definite difference.
Bob
05-20-2005, 01:09 PM
#16
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 221
In addition to the 2003 article that ohthatshot posted, there's an extremely compelling two-page article for VDC in the April Consumer Reports annual auto issue. I would not have bought my 2005 Maxima SL (which I picked up last Friday) without it. However, I was disappointed I was required to purchase the Dealer Preferred Package (DPP) as well, which I really didn't want. Even though the Maxima brochure said DPP was not required as a pre-req for VDC, I couldn't even factory order VDC w/out DPP. But I thought VDC was so important I went with the DPP included. It made me feel better I was getting the whole deal for $500 below invoice.
05-20-2005, 02:30 PM
#17
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
sschumer,
I remember you from that "other" board about this same subject. I see you live in NJ where it snows, so I understand your feelings for VDC/TCS. I have two 05 Max's, one with and one without, and, I don't like the VDC/TCS on dry pavement, especially dry, uneven pavement. To me, it enhances the torque steer. To each their own I say, but it's not important to me. Been driving 40 years without it and I'm still alive, so it's not a matter of life and death regardless of what Consumers says. Just like anti-locks a few years ago. Got to have them, and, then people driving them had no idea how to use them and still don't. Personally, I'm not that fond of them either, but I'm an old guy.
Anybody out there that said they were going to test my theory, try it out yet. Would love to get back some feedback on my ambivalent feels towards VDC/TCS.
I remember you from that "other" board about this same subject. I see you live in NJ where it snows, so I understand your feelings for VDC/TCS. I have two 05 Max's, one with and one without, and, I don't like the VDC/TCS on dry pavement, especially dry, uneven pavement. To me, it enhances the torque steer. To each their own I say, but it's not important to me. Been driving 40 years without it and I'm still alive, so it's not a matter of life and death regardless of what Consumers says. Just like anti-locks a few years ago. Got to have them, and, then people driving them had no idea how to use them and still don't. Personally, I'm not that fond of them either, but I'm an old guy.
Anybody out there that said they were going to test my theory, try it out yet. Would love to get back some feedback on my ambivalent feels towards VDC/TCS.
05-20-2005, 08:41 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
jinsatx - I'm trying to test for torque steer at lower speeds with VDC on and off, but a series of medical procedures and hospital trips during the last six weeks have kept me behind schedule.
There is also the fact my wife has been in the car with me most of the time recently. That is not a good testing situation because my car has never had any trace of torque steer, so I feel I will have to perform some very aggressive maneuvers if I am to get torque.
Twice this week, I left home with the intent of testing, only to be stuck in traffic wherever I went. Sigh . . .
But I haven't given up.
There is also the fact my wife has been in the car with me most of the time recently. That is not a good testing situation because my car has never had any trace of torque steer, so I feel I will have to perform some very aggressive maneuvers if I am to get torque.
Twice this week, I left home with the intent of testing, only to be stuck in traffic wherever I went. Sigh . . .
But I haven't given up.
05-21-2005, 08:29 AM
#19
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
lighton,
Sorry to hear about your medical procedures, hope all is okay. Surprised that you have never felt the torque steer in the Max, because it's definately there when you accelerate quickly off the line, or trying to quickly turn and come up to speed in traffic. No rush on testing my crazy thoughts about VDC, but I've been curious about this ever since I bought my Max and have noticed the difference. Maybe my SE is one of those that dyno's out at 280hp so I have more torque steer. JUST KIDDING GUYS.
Sorry to hear about your medical procedures, hope all is okay. Surprised that you have never felt the torque steer in the Max, because it's definately there when you accelerate quickly off the line, or trying to quickly turn and come up to speed in traffic. No rush on testing my crazy thoughts about VDC, but I've been curious about this ever since I bought my Max and have noticed the difference. Maybe my SE is one of those that dyno's out at 280hp so I have more torque steer. JUST KIDDING GUYS.
06-01-2005, 03:18 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 289
safety foresight
I'd recommend getting the VDC if it is at all workable for the purchaser. My understanding is that this is a quite significant safety feature, second only to seat belts in preventing injuries. I didn't really want to pay the extra $ for the feature, but it was on the car I otherwise wanted. Upon further reflection, I'm glad to have VDC on the car I drive. It's more than just peace of mind. If I lost vehicle control in wet or snowy conditions (or whenever) and the situation could have been avoided with VDC (I freely admit the VDC would be difficult to isolate as an accident-precluding variable), I'd feel pretty silly if my car ended in the ditch or worse (rollover, injuries) without the VDC.
Maybe I'm getting more conservative as I age, because when I was younger I probably would not at all been willing to pay the extra coin for the VDC, but I also know that many of us think that a serious accident or whatever will never happen to us. I know that things happen all the time to people that they never thought would occur.
With other drivers on the road that may not be skilled drivers, our own inattentiveness at times (let's be honest with ourselves-cell phones, cd players, radio stations, kids, looking for a certain store, etc.), and road and weather conditions beyond one's control, it makes sense to me to have a feature such as VDC that exerts some control over something that might otherwise be a situation where one could lose control of one's car.
Maybe I'm getting more conservative as I age, because when I was younger I probably would not at all been willing to pay the extra coin for the VDC, but I also know that many of us think that a serious accident or whatever will never happen to us. I know that things happen all the time to people that they never thought would occur.
With other drivers on the road that may not be skilled drivers, our own inattentiveness at times (let's be honest with ourselves-cell phones, cd players, radio stations, kids, looking for a certain store, etc.), and road and weather conditions beyond one's control, it makes sense to me to have a feature such as VDC that exerts some control over something that might otherwise be a situation where one could lose control of one's car.
06-01-2005, 09:58 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
And the cost of VDC is not that much.
On the '04s, the $900 VDC package included VDC, TCS (traction control) AND a matching full-size spare alloy wheel with full-size matching spare tire.
On the '05s produced since November '04, TCS is standard, and the VDC package now costs $600, and still includes matching full-size spare alloy wheel with full-size matching spare tire.
The wheel and tire alone probably cost more than $600 at the dealer.
------------------------------------------------------------
My testing for torque steer with VDC turned off and then on has been hampered by several hospital procedures, and now we have had rain or drizzle all day every day since last week. So far, I haven't been able to link the VDC to torque steer.
But we will probably find every Maxima is slightly different, just as with struts, steering wheel shimmy, sunroof leaks, skyview leaks, rear deck rattle, etc, etc. Sometimes I feel the 6th gens don't all come down the same assembly line . . .
On the '04s, the $900 VDC package included VDC, TCS (traction control) AND a matching full-size spare alloy wheel with full-size matching spare tire.
On the '05s produced since November '04, TCS is standard, and the VDC package now costs $600, and still includes matching full-size spare alloy wheel with full-size matching spare tire.
The wheel and tire alone probably cost more than $600 at the dealer.
------------------------------------------------------------
My testing for torque steer with VDC turned off and then on has been hampered by several hospital procedures, and now we have had rain or drizzle all day every day since last week. So far, I haven't been able to link the VDC to torque steer.
But we will probably find every Maxima is slightly different, just as with struts, steering wheel shimmy, sunroof leaks, skyview leaks, rear deck rattle, etc, etc. Sometimes I feel the 6th gens don't all come down the same assembly line . . .
06-02-2005, 01:17 AM
#22
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 451
Dirt Roads
The quickest way to check out the VDC is take you car out on a nice dirt or gravel road with as few trees around as possible and some serious bends and curves in it (and give it some)... You will very surprised at the result , unless you total your car in the first 5 minutes.
I have found that the Nissan VDC is very slow on the uptake and reacts only at the very last moment .. It is not the best VDC system around , as I have had the feature on the last three of my cars, and some were better then others. Mercedes ( Excellant) BMW ( Iffy) Citrone (Unspeakable)
However that noted it is quite good on wet paved roads and preforms as required and may save your life.
Brake Assist is on the other hand a very laudible feature and has saved the life of many a neighbors dogs & cats in my street anyhow...
I have found that the Nissan VDC is very slow on the uptake and reacts only at the very last moment .. It is not the best VDC system around , as I have had the feature on the last three of my cars, and some were better then others. Mercedes ( Excellant) BMW ( Iffy) Citrone (Unspeakable)
However that noted it is quite good on wet paved roads and preforms as required and may save your life.
Brake Assist is on the other hand a very laudible feature and has saved the life of many a neighbors dogs & cats in my street anyhow...
06-02-2005, 04:17 AM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 203
I live in Atlanta... we have minimal snow but a LOT of rain. I've been fine without VDC or TCS. For $900, I would get some Eibachs, Sway bar, and some sticky tires instead of an option that will be turned off most of the time. But that's just my preference.
06-02-2005, 09:06 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
SLuxury - Reread my post above of just after midnight last night. You aren't paying $900 for the VDC. The VDC package is now $600, AND includes a matching alloy spare wheel and matching spare tire. That is indeed a bargain.
And those with VDC would be wise to not have it turned off unless they always know ahead of time when a sudden driving crisis would leave them in a tricky situation at high speed. But that would require ESP.
As a multi-million mile driver with fifty-six years driving experience, I can only wish I had been able to have VDC the entire time. I feel it would have saved me several times from a fishtailing situation that led to accidents. As I have said here before, I would not have purchased the Maxima without VDC. Period. And the only time I will turn it off is to compare the car's behavior with and without VDC.
And those with VDC would be wise to not have it turned off unless they always know ahead of time when a sudden driving crisis would leave them in a tricky situation at high speed. But that would require ESP.
As a multi-million mile driver with fifty-six years driving experience, I can only wish I had been able to have VDC the entire time. I feel it would have saved me several times from a fishtailing situation that led to accidents. As I have said here before, I would not have purchased the Maxima without VDC. Period. And the only time I will turn it off is to compare the car's behavior with and without VDC.
06-03-2005, 10:39 AM
#25
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
Well guys, I continue to "sample" the torque steer with the vdc on and then off and I still feel there is a difference. This is noticable when launching off the line and in accelerating during turns, especially hard turns into traffic. On accelerating into hard turns you get a real pull into the turn. Also, I drive my wifes 05, which does not have VDC and it definately handles different than mine when the VDC is on.
So, has anybody tested my theory lately? I'm sitll curious, is it me or is there really a difference other people can feel?
So, has anybody tested my theory lately? I'm sitll curious, is it me or is there really a difference other people can feel?
06-19-2005, 11:25 PM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
Im beginning to feel like the Lone Ranger.
Many others here are experiencing torque steer. But I am pushing the pedal and whipping the steering wheel to the point of squealing the tires, and I can't find enough torque steer to require more than a light finger on the wheel, whether VDC is on or off.
But here on Maxima.org, we posters have seen many other things vary between what should be similar Maximas, so this probably shouldn't surprise us.
My son bought a TL Type 'S' around two years ago because the '04 Maxima SE he tested had bad torque steer. I had him check mine today (at our father's day get-together), and he agrees my '04 SL does not have torque steer.
I'm disappointed because this makes it virtually meaningless to continue my testing, in which I was hunting for a difference in torque steer with VDC on, then with VDC off.
On the other hand, the absence of torque steer should probably be considered a positive . . .
Many others here are experiencing torque steer. But I am pushing the pedal and whipping the steering wheel to the point of squealing the tires, and I can't find enough torque steer to require more than a light finger on the wheel, whether VDC is on or off.
But here on Maxima.org, we posters have seen many other things vary between what should be similar Maximas, so this probably shouldn't surprise us.
My son bought a TL Type 'S' around two years ago because the '04 Maxima SE he tested had bad torque steer. I had him check mine today (at our father's day get-together), and he agrees my '04 SL does not have torque steer.
I'm disappointed because this makes it virtually meaningless to continue my testing, in which I was hunting for a difference in torque steer with VDC on, then with VDC off.
On the other hand, the absence of torque steer should probably be considered a positive . . .
06-20-2005, 01:24 AM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 1,994
Originally Posted by lightonthehill
Im beginning to feel like the Lone Ranger. Many others here are experiencing torque steer. But I am pushing the pedal and whipping the steering wheel to the point of squealing the tires, and I can't find enough torque steer to require more than a light finger on the wheel, whether VDC is on or off. . .
I know what torque steer feels like, it was bad in my 86 Celica -- first time it happened in the Celica, I almost ended up in the ditch. Could it be that I became so used to torque steer in the Celica, I no longer even notice it in the Max? Could be, but I doubt it.
06-20-2005, 09:47 AM
#30
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by sschumer
In addition to the 2003 article that ohthatshot posted, there's an extremely compelling two-page article for VDC in the April Consumer Reports annual auto issue. I would not have bought my 2005 Maxima SL (which I picked up last Friday) without it. However, I was disappointed I was required to purchase the Dealer Preferred Package (DPP) as well, which I really didn't want. Even though the Maxima brochure said DPP was not required as a pre-req for VDC, I couldn't even factory order VDC w/out DPP. But I thought VDC was so important I went with the DPP included. It made me feel better I was getting the whole deal for $500 below invoice.
For all on this forum, just want to say your posts are very helpful for me, a newbie to maxima. I'm so glad to have found this website and forum. Thanks!
06-20-2005, 10:33 PM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
As with several others here, I would never have considered buying my '04 SL without the Drivers Preferred Package. DPP is a tremendous bargain for the money, and will be a very big 'selling point' when it comes time to trade.
I use every one of the long list of items in the DPP. In my mind, the DPP package moves the Maxima from pedestrian status to luxury status.
I use every one of the long list of items in the DPP. In my mind, the DPP package moves the Maxima from pedestrian status to luxury status.
06-21-2005, 10:35 AM
#32
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by lightonthehill
As with several others here, I would never have considered buying my '04 SL without the Drivers Preferred Package. DPP is a tremendous bargain for the money, and will be a very big 'selling point' when it comes time to trade.
I use every one of the long list of items in the DPP. In my mind, the DPP package moves the Maxima from pedestrian status to luxury status.
I use every one of the long list of items in the DPP. In my mind, the DPP package moves the Maxima from pedestrian status to luxury status.
Yep from SL it's not much more to add DPP. However, a big chunk of change if stepping up to DPP from the base SE.
06-21-2005, 11:09 AM
#33
Newbie just Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Location: LA/OC, CA
Posts: 2,795
Living in Southern California with DPP, I have no need for heated steering wheel, but heatedseats help loosen my back before tee offs and after home improvement weekends. The TCS was a no-brainer with all these torque. As far as VDC, one of the cars I test drove has it. I didn't care for the way it promoted understeer. Besides, the Max is FWD, just point the way and go. The stability program on my other car allows for some over steer 
, but it's a RWD.
, but it's a RWD.
06-21-2005, 02:16 PM
#34
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
Okay, I started this so I'll give you a little more insight. I wanted the DPP on both my Max's and didn't care whether or not they had TCS and/or VDC. I live in South Texas where when it rains you are more worried about bouyancy than traction or direction. In fact, we get so much water on the roads that the tires make more difference than anything else when it comes to hydroplaning and when you hydroplane there is nothing that TCS/VDC can do for you as you have no contact with the road. Also, I was interested in price and my wife's Max was $5500 off sticker because it was a pre-TCS 2005. As for mine, it too was a pre-TCS 2005, but had the $900 VDC/TCS package that nobody seemed to want so my dealer discounted it $5400 off sticker. Now for the differences in handling. There is less torque steer in my wife's non TCS 2005 than my 2005 with VDC/TCS whether I turn it off or on. My guess, as verified somewhat by you guys with the non-TCS 2004's that say you don't notice that much torque steer, is that the difference is the TCS and not the VDC and turning off the VDC does not turn off the TCS control in my 2005. In looking at this it makes sense. Without TCS you get some slight wheel spin that you can modulate if you like with accelerator control, but with TCS, you get the wheel "grab" of the TCS which can feel like more torque steer since you never come off the acelerator. This is probably why I notice it more on "uneven" pavement and on turns where the TCS can become very active when one wheel is sensed to be losing traction. Oh well, that's my feeling. It's the TCS causing my sensual differences between my two Max's and not the VDC. While the TCS/VDC probably has some safety value, I feel just as safe in my wife's Max as I do mine. However, I'm an old guy, 57, and have never been impressed by PHD automatic systems including anti-lock brakes.
06-21-2005, 04:12 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 1,994
Originally Posted by jinsatx
I'm an old guy, 57, and have never been impressed by PHD automatic systems including anti-lock brakes.
All that you said makes sense to me. And I can certainly identify with your comment on hydroplaning -- you don't ever want that to happen to you at 75 mph (like it did to me).
At times what we oldsters say does seem to make more sense.
06-21-2005, 04:38 PM
#36
Originally Posted by lightonthehill
As with several others here, I would never have considered buying my '04 SL without the Drivers Preferred Package. DPP is a tremendous bargain for the money, and will be a very big 'selling point' when it comes time to trade.
I use every one of the long list of items in the DPP. In my mind, the DPP package moves the Maxima from pedestrian status to luxury status.
I use every one of the long list of items in the DPP. In my mind, the DPP package moves the Maxima from pedestrian status to luxury status.
When I traded my last Max, I had to point out all of the various options it had to get the price I wanted in trade. It was nice to be able to do so. With all of the bells and whistles included in the DPP, I shouldn't have a problem next go around either.
06-21-2005, 05:34 PM
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
jinsatx - In reading through your post of earlier today, it makes sense. The TCS would be much more likely to activate when acellerating from standstill or at low speed than the VDC.
That goes along with my inability to detect a difference with VDC on or off, as I was mostly acellerating and turning sharply from standstill and at low speeds.
I also agree with you that, once traction is broken with the pavement, VDC will still operate, but its efforts will pretty much be in vain.
I feel VDC is at its best on a dry road when, for whatever reason (maybe an effort to dodge another vehicle or animal or the right wheels slipped off the edge of the pavement or one took a curve too fast), and the car is either threatning to skid or fishtail, VDC can make the necessary corrections (several in thousandths of a second) to save the day.
As to the anti-lock brakes, they help most when having to brake hard in a curve, where normal brakes would let the wheels lock, at which point steering is virtually gone. I would not own a pickup without anti-lock on the rear, as the light rear end lets the tires lock very quickly, and there goes the rear toward the ditch.
As to your being an 'old geezer of 57', I can't even remember when I was 67. But I'll still love my Maximas when I'm 107.
lfc-reds - You are correct that adding DPP to a base Maxima is quite costly. But It adds a lot more than HIDs and leather. So many goodies! As i said earlier, the DPP moves the base Maxima from perestrian to luxury.
SilverMax_04 - I doubt you are so used to torque steer you won't notice it. An SE i test drove back in the 1990s had such a bad case of torque steer it startled me. Fortunately, In over twenty years of driving Maximas, none I have owned has had much torque steer.
RHMax - The only time VDC could promote understeer is in a situation where the system feels control of the car is being lost. It should never come into play in any normal driving situation. Maybe the car you tested with VDC had an alignment or steering problem. Or a problem with the VDC system.
boone - Our situations are exactly alike; I have two married kids and three grandkids. No elite package for me. And I have collected maps for over fifty-five years, and prefer maps. I would have to pull off the road to read the (costly) nav package anyway.
That goes along with my inability to detect a difference with VDC on or off, as I was mostly acellerating and turning sharply from standstill and at low speeds.
I also agree with you that, once traction is broken with the pavement, VDC will still operate, but its efforts will pretty much be in vain.
I feel VDC is at its best on a dry road when, for whatever reason (maybe an effort to dodge another vehicle or animal or the right wheels slipped off the edge of the pavement or one took a curve too fast), and the car is either threatning to skid or fishtail, VDC can make the necessary corrections (several in thousandths of a second) to save the day.
As to the anti-lock brakes, they help most when having to brake hard in a curve, where normal brakes would let the wheels lock, at which point steering is virtually gone. I would not own a pickup without anti-lock on the rear, as the light rear end lets the tires lock very quickly, and there goes the rear toward the ditch.
As to your being an 'old geezer of 57', I can't even remember when I was 67. But I'll still love my Maximas when I'm 107.
lfc-reds - You are correct that adding DPP to a base Maxima is quite costly. But It adds a lot more than HIDs and leather. So many goodies! As i said earlier, the DPP moves the base Maxima from perestrian to luxury.
SilverMax_04 - I doubt you are so used to torque steer you won't notice it. An SE i test drove back in the 1990s had such a bad case of torque steer it startled me. Fortunately, In over twenty years of driving Maximas, none I have owned has had much torque steer.
RHMax - The only time VDC could promote understeer is in a situation where the system feels control of the car is being lost. It should never come into play in any normal driving situation. Maybe the car you tested with VDC had an alignment or steering problem. Or a problem with the VDC system.
boone - Our situations are exactly alike; I have two married kids and three grandkids. No elite package for me. And I have collected maps for over fifty-five years, and prefer maps. I would have to pull off the road to read the (costly) nav package anyway.
06-22-2005, 01:54 PM
#38
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 94
Well, thank you fellow geezers, lighton and silvermax for your support. Guess we could start a new topic called "Support Your Local Geezers" where our logo is James Garner driving a modded out Max.
Silvermax,
When I bought the wife her Max SE , she had to have the DPP. The first one she looked at was a plain jane and she screamed "what no leather?". I knew right then it had to have the DPP package and a sunroof. As for mine, guess what's good for the gander is good for the goose, so I too had to have DPP package and a sunroof. Just so happens that mine had the early $900 VDC/TCS package so the dealer split the price difference for me. When you think about it, the DPP package is a bargin on the SE and is necessary to bring the car up to 'luxury' standards, since you don't get leather, HID's, Bose, etc. like you do standard on the SL.
Don't know why the wife needed a sunroof because she probably opened the one in her previous car 5 times in 5 years, but let's just call it a 'womans perrogative'. As for my sunroof, it was a necessity since I traded a convertible and was not about to give up all my sun worship.
Lighton,
Glad to see you think the TCS has more to do with the torque steer than the VDC. If you drive like I do and the roads that I do, it's easy to come to that conclusion. On the same roads and driving style I do not notice the torque steer quite as much in my wife's pre-TCS 05 than I do in mine with the VDC/TCS and I attribute this to the TCS preventing wheel slip, therefore more 'grab' on uneven pavement, turns and pedal to the metal takeoffs.
Silvermax,
When I bought the wife her Max SE , she had to have the DPP. The first one she looked at was a plain jane and she screamed "what no leather?". I knew right then it had to have the DPP package and a sunroof. As for mine, guess what's good for the gander is good for the goose, so I too had to have DPP package and a sunroof. Just so happens that mine had the early $900 VDC/TCS package so the dealer split the price difference for me. When you think about it, the DPP package is a bargin on the SE and is necessary to bring the car up to 'luxury' standards, since you don't get leather, HID's, Bose, etc. like you do standard on the SL.
Don't know why the wife needed a sunroof because she probably opened the one in her previous car 5 times in 5 years, but let's just call it a 'womans perrogative'. As for my sunroof, it was a necessity since I traded a convertible and was not about to give up all my sun worship.
Lighton,
Glad to see you think the TCS has more to do with the torque steer than the VDC. If you drive like I do and the roads that I do, it's easy to come to that conclusion. On the same roads and driving style I do not notice the torque steer quite as much in my wife's pre-TCS 05 than I do in mine with the VDC/TCS and I attribute this to the TCS preventing wheel slip, therefore more 'grab' on uneven pavement, turns and pedal to the metal takeoffs.
07-01-2005, 05:46 PM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 1,994
Originally Posted by Chops13
is there anything you can do to the 05 max to reduce or eliminate the torque steer