I have my 05 dropped with Cattman Springs and a RSB. Today I had a kinda scary moment. I wanted to see how much better the new suspension was over stock together with my new NISMO wheels. Well I took an off ramp at 70 mph where the car did well until almost the end of the ramp where my rear end broke kind of free, and i tailed the car a bit. Suspension did great and so did the tires to a limit.
But, I think not having the KONI/AGX set up hindered my cornering abilities.
Is the KONI/AGX set up worth it? I have the stock struts and shocks. Will the KONI/AGX make the car ride stiffer and better with even less body roll? Please shed some light on this...
VQMAX05

 

this isnt an expert point of view, but im guessing that with the koni/agx setup you would see the difference that your looking for. though all i have is the cattman rsb, I did notice something similar to that happen to me, and from my guess its because the springs/strut setup are so bouncy that when all the weight transfers to the front of the car your tail loses stability.

experts feel free to chime in.

 

^^this happened to me a couple of times and i have figured out that its not the springs that are too bouncy, its your rear end that is too stiff.

you put on the rear swaybar and springs all around, but your front end is still stock (stock swaybar). when the weight transfers from the front to the back your wheels dont have as much movement and move together. thats why it gets loose.

if you put some good stiff shocks in front this should solve the problem, as it has solved mine, (i have adjustable shocks front and rear and i keep my fronts stiffer than the rear).

im also not an expert, and i dont entirely know if it will work for you, but i had the same set up as you did. lowering springs and rear swaybar.

 

is the struts...

you need more stability in the ride...

with my coils and the factory wheels i just yesterday took a hard turn when wet at around 70. it feels like you have to hold yourself in the seat cause the car it turning better than you can hold your body in place.

with better and firmer struts you and the car will have better stability and control.. if I were you I would take the oem's put and put those aftermarkets in right away..

 

Better struts would help on rougher surfaces, but the rear broke loose is the work of rsb.

 

The problem here is the VQMax is a fool for taking an exit ramp going 70MPH. The other problem is that he has a RSB and expected his vehicle to stay put at that speed? The point of the RSB is to increase oversteer, which was done. Your struts didn't hinder much, if anything, at all. Struts decrease bounce, not body roll. You need to start tying down the car now. You need a strut bar and a front tower brace to match the oversteer you've increased by adding an RSB.

 

Too bad there's not front brace for 6th gen, yet.

 

there has been a front tower brace available from stillen for a long time now

 

I was thinking that myself... FWD cars never get that loose because of the weight distribution. Adding the RSB actually prevented the car from flexing and it started sliding. Stupid idea to take even a 40mph exit ramp at 70, but if he didn't have the RSB he would have probably understeered right into the wall...

 

You mean Front Strut Tower Bar... A brace is different, but thanks...

 

Ok, guys, here is my 2 cents. I have done amateur road racing and autocrossing since 1985, most of that time in front wheel drive cars. My set up is Cattman rear bar and springs, stock struts and shocks, and Stillen front strut brace. Tires are Sumitomo.

With this in mind here are my thoughts: I believe the front strut brace will have some effect in stiffening the front, which will resist lean in the front and thus reduce oversteer.

The main problem I find may be, as I used to say when I was in the auto repair business, "the nut behind the wheel." I mean that with all due respect of course. If you drive a front driver at the limits, funny things can happen if ur not careful. At the limits, a front driver exits lift throttle oversteer bigtime. VQ, I dont know how you were driving or if you have been trained in driving technique. But if u lifted ur foot off the accelerator or worse yet, hit the brakes, in the middle of the turn, that may be the cause. My car handles very neutrally. In fact, I wish I had a bit more oversteer, but I have been trained to drive at the limits and I know not to lift off the gas.

My suggestion: Try to remember if u lifted yourfoot off the gas, or hit the brakes in the middle (apex) of the turn. U may try to go to an area where if u spin out ur going to be safe and test the handling out. Focus on not lifting ur foot off the gas pedal. See if this works.

Note: I kept the handling analisis of a frotn driver simple for the purposes of this thread. Clearly, whole books can be and have been written on the subject.

 

Dues,
Yes I am the Nut behind the wheel(No offense taken) :-) .... I have not done one so tight as this one before, I let of the gas on the final 3/4 part of the apex, Also i think the exit is kind of flat towards the bottom....in other words...bad idea. There is another exit which i have done at 90 mph that is much much bigger a sweeper. I had no problems there.
I have done my share of driving as well, but had never had this happen to me either.
With all this in mind, I will not upgrade struts and shocks...i will add the front tower brace, instead. Then do the same exit without reducing power...keeping the foot on the gas.
I have had RWD cars all my life, this is my first FWD. So I guess I might have to get used to the different driving style.
But thanks for the input.

MArk,
HEY by the way, the NISMO wheels are much lighter, you feel the difference in acceleration, if you can get the NISMO wheels.. SICK!! Usprung weight is also noticable in the suspension..

 

Last time I took an on ramp like that I spun the car out and off the ramp. Fuked my rims up and realized that besides a good handling suspension, you need to have good shoes. If you're not rocking a z rated tire that is super sticky and only gets 7000 miles out of it then you may what to think about hitting the off ramps at a safe speed of about 67mph. LIve it up my man

 

1. We still don't know the conditions on the ramp. If there was a change in the slope or camber of the ramp, or if the surface was uneven, that would explain the sudden tail-wagging. A RSB would indeed exaggerate the effects of such conditions.

2a. What is the KONI/AGX setup? Koni front, AGX rear or something? Why not just get Konis all around, since they're MUCH better than the AGX? EDIT: Thanks for clarifying, Glude. Question retracted.

2b. Yes, better shocks would help a lot because they would keep the suspension more in control. They won't necessarily make the ride a lot firmer or reduce body roll very much (those are mostly a function of the springs), but they will greatly help your stability and cornering. They also won't blow out as fast.

3. Just to be clear, the function of chassis stiffness in handling is to make the chassis more neutral so that it doesn't contribute to the handling balance of the car as much. If any chassis stiffening reduces oversteer, it's because the chassis, suspension geometry, and weight balance of the car inherently cause understeer, and in effect you're just exposing it. For example, you might be getting oversteer without a brace or shock tower bar in the front, but that's only because your chassis is flexing torsionally and helping to keep your inside front wheel on the ground, which will increase front grip. Front grip in and of itself is good, but front grip due to chassis flex is unstable (i.e. it can change a lot with road conditions) and you're better off without it. Adding a brace or shock tower bar in the front will reduce those effects; you may have slightly less front grip, but your car will be much more stable and predictable.

Chassis stiffening is far too often neglected. It should be considered necessary with any suspension mods because it helps both handling and ride quality with no net penalties whatsoever.

 

What is a brace?

 

Chassis brace.

 

4 troof

 

Subframe connectors?

 

Because they dont offer Konis all the way round, just the fronts.

 

Never heard put that way, but I guess they are the same. Two types, one for handling; the other for traction.

 

Ah, okay.

That's really stupid. Someone should tell Koni they suck.

Post duly edited.

 

You're thinking of subframe connectors (better handling, better ride quality, fewer rattles) vs. traction bars (to help keep the wheels on the road in a drag race).

 

Yes. I wan't sure what Bluemaxx meant by subframe connectors, since I'm not familiar w/ that term. We (where I used to work) always called them chassis braces and traction bars.

 

Why would you want to drive 90 mph on a exit ramp?

Warren

 

Yeah someone should, wont be me though. I have the rear agx and plan on getting those konis eventually, the agx are nice though.

 

Good ol RSB

 

You know what... I just realized I wasn't entirely precise either.

Subframe connectors are just one type of chassis brace. They provide extra structural reinforcement to help keep the subframes from moving and flexing. Lower tie bars, shock/strut tower bars, and roll cages are all technically chassis braces as well.

And of course, all of those are definitely different from traction bars.

 

I think the term 'sub frame connectors' more accurately applies to something like the GM F body where it has a sub frame in front and unit body construction from the cowl back. Sub frame connectors tie the sub frame to the forward rear spring mount.

Maxima are of true unit body construction thus no sub frame to connect. Having said that, I believe there are kits available for 4th and 5th gen, called sub frame connectors.

 

it may have something to do with your 4 dollar tires. but thats just a guess.

HAHAHAHHA and you have an RSB. HAHAHAH im glad you own a 6th gen.

yes RSBs create oversteer. that is what u experienced. and u totally gotta have a FSTB they eliminate over steer all together

 

I would have to try this off ramp for myself before passing judgment but my experience is that Michelin Pilot Sport A/S are up to the task. Just don't let up or the back end may get wormy; it can take your breath away.

My humble opinion, the 6th gen SE doesn't need a stiffer spring or much if any extra RSB. A strut/shock upgrade would be a welcome add. The only reason to swap springs is to lower the car, for appearance. Unless you are on a racing surface going WFO, stiff springs cause more problems than they are worth. But that's just me.

 

Under chassis brace is the other term, same thing...

 

I know.....I AM A NUT for taking that exit at that speed...it wont happen again BELIEVE ME!

Let me get a few things str8.

RSB-- Causes more understeer?
Springs-- dont do a damn thing other than lower vehicle and make it stiffer.

Is it just me or was under the impression that these things would make the car handle better??

What needs to be done to have an excellent handling car.......
Thanks
VQMAX05

 

That is exactly what happened the rear end got wormy....scared me shi*less!! But I then raced a MB C350 home....that was fun...he got spanked!!on the Highway....
NissanMB GOT BEAT!

SHIFT_

 

RSB - reduce body roll, more oversteer
Springs - stiffen the ride, lower the center of gravity

The change the handling of the car, usually better; in a nut shell.

There are more to be done to have an excellent handling car, but you give up the comfort. It depends on what you want from your Max.

 

First of all, I should make the disclaimer that handling is a black art. It's not just how fast you can take corners: it's a combination of characteristics. Here are some of those things:

- Sustained grip
- Transient grip
- Transient response
- Turn-in response
- Balance (oversteer vs. understeer)
- Breakaway

Sometimes, stuff like springs and sway bars can have really straightforward effects, or they can have really complicated effects. For example, rear sway bars on front-heavy front-wheel-drive cars can improve turn-in response and shift the balance away from understeer (toward oversteer), but also make your breakaway more sudden and not actually improve grip levels. In other words, the car will be more eager to jump into a corner and less likely to understeer, but you're more likely to have the back end kick out suddenly. So, when you hear people say that a mod "improves handling", it usually improves only some parts; others may not change, some might get worse.

With that said, back to what you were asking: A RSB reduces understeer (which is the same thing as increasing oversteer). About the springs, I'm not sure where the previous negative comment came from, but lower and stiffer springs WILL generally improve your handling (to a point) IF your shocks/struts, chassis, tires, etc. are up to the task.

Depends what you mean by excellent.

If all you want is a drastic improvement, it's well within reach: get yourself some coilovers, keep the RSB, get stickier tires on lighter wheels for more grip and reduced unsprung weight, install two-piece brake rotors to further reduce unsprung weight, and bolt and weld up every last piece of chassis stiffening you can get your hands on. That'll make you corner like a **** compared to what you can do now. Plus, it's easy to swap out springs on coilovers to tune the handling balance of the car.

But if you want to start carving it up like a 350Z, I have some bad news for you. Even after all that modding, which will definitely let you fly through corners at speeds you'd never think possible, your car will still have some serious limitations. It will still be fairly reluctant to enter corners, it will still push wide when you get on the gas, and it'll eat tires like nothing you've ever seen. The Max handles very well for what it is, and it's easy to make it handle better. But no matter what you do, you're still stuck with the same weight, weight distribution, drivetrain limitations, and suspension design.

In other words, there's plenty of room for improvement -- to make your car a much better handling car. But if you want an excellent handling car, it's time to ditch the Max.

 

There was a thread here before that said the FSTB didn't afect jandling that much in the 6th gen because the towers are so close to the firewall. The only good reasin for the TB is looks (which is perfectly valid for me!!)

Is there a fromt end equivalent to the RSB?

 

Better seats would help too

 

I’m no expert, but have read several books on suspensions. May a respectfully suggest that before you guys spend big bucks to improve your handling, that you visit your local library a read up on suspensions. Based on my readings, the formula for handling contains many variables such as spring ratings, shocks, bushings, sway bars, wheels, tires, steering geometry, polar moment of inertia, body rigidity and more. Finding the right mixture of each of these ingredients is an art form. They all work together and changing just one can potentially screw up the whole end result.

A firmer suspension doesn’t necessarily handle better. If a suspension gets too firm, it can provide too little vertical wheel movement and lose contact with the road on bad surfaces. A suspension needs some compliance to remain planted. Sorry if I sound like your moms here, but these backyard modifications can be dangerous, especially at high speeds on exit ramps. Take care.

 

Ok, OK sounds like I opened Pandoras Box here! WoW!
Enough of the 70mph exit ramps...damn that, I live in a hecktik city, no need for that madness. I have lightweight wheels, and a better suspension over stock...good enough for me... I will add a Greddy SP2 and a Y pipe and call it a day....
I see that suspension is a much...studied thing. It isnt just like lets slap some springs a rear sway bar.....and lets go road racing...
Now I see how much R&D goes into a suspension, like on an M3 or a Vette.
I guess what all this is saying is.....

WE ARE IN A FAMILY SEDAN.....NO NEED FOR 70 MPH EXITS AFTER ALL. IM AN IDIOT. ILL WILL DO IT AT 60. :-)

CHECK out my CARDOMAIN site for PICS of my NEW NISMO WHEELS....THE REAL THING!!

 

And people here wonder why the bimmer guys call us ricers...