big dave

Is this is how all the 6 gens are geared, or is this CVT specific?

4MySwee

iTrader: (2)

Mine have only 5 I believe! I have the '05' SL.

!PrjctMax!

iTrader: (38)

Only the 07' has 6spd auto

AllBlackMax

Yeah, only the CVTs have 6 gears. I bet with the right reprogramming you could have more than that.

!PrjctMax!

iTrader: (38)

Reprogram and have 6spd instead of 5spd........?

I think it would take an actual 6spd swap, considering it has an EXTRA gear...

Zargon

Ummm, last time I checked a CVT transmission does not have set number of gears.

!PrjctMax!

iTrader: (38)

I guess i'm confused then..........

Zargon

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm

AllBlackMax

When I say 6 gears I'm referring to 6 "speeds". Yes, theoretically a CVT has a infinite number of speeds but the Xtronic CVT does have 6 "speeds" or controlable "steps" that you can select.

And like I was saying, I'm sure these "speeds" can be changed or "steps" can be added. Nobody has figured it out yet.

I bet with the CONSULT II you can make modifications.

jcalabria

Another reason CVT equipped cars may become the ultimate chip tuner cars.

RHMax

I think Allblackmax meant CVT. Since Nissan preprogrammed 6 preset belt/pulley positions to simulate gearing.

big dave

Thanks for casting some light on this for me. I had no idea how a CVT trans had become a normal trans just by flicking the lever to the right. Honestly, I had no idea how these transmissions worked...still don't

AllBlackMax

Think of it like a 10 speed bicycle. As you shift through the gears the chain moves up and down adjusting the speeds of the bike. The CVT actually has 2 pulleys connected by a "chain". As you accellerate that chain moves in between those 2 pulleys adjusting the ratio providing you with different speeds.

madmik

iTrader: (1)

Snowmobiles use a similar setup except its a rubber belt. As one pulley speeds up, weights force one side of the pulley to close-in,forcing the belt to ride higher. Since it rides higher, it pulls on the other pulley, forcing the sides appart, thus increasing its speed. One active diagram on the howstuffworks link illustrate this well.

Not sure how the CVT is programmed but, at WOT, I would set the ECU to keep the revs at 6000+ while the CVT ratio adjusts with the land speed. The triptronic simulation of gears, IMO, is probably slowing down the car, and affecting longevity of the belt due to the jolts between shifts.

I admire the CVT for it simplicity, but as a car enthousiast, it breaks my heart.

AllBlackMax

Yeah, Nissan made a statement when they dropped the 6spd manual. If you want a performance sedan, get a G35.

big dave

Interesting, I never tried to run the car at the track in it's auto mode. It feels far slower than in manual mode. It seems that the car is taking too long to reach it's programmed redline when accelerating in auto mode.

jcalabria

CVT purposely keeps it from going to redline because its past peak torque point. The CVT is "accelerating", not the motor. The rate of acceleration is pre-programmed - not strictly a matter of physics as in a conventional trans.

Since you already have a baseline time in manual mode, would be interesting to see an auto mode run to see if the advantage of maintaining peak torque is negated by CVT programming that is less aggressive than it could/should be.

Auto mode SHOULD be quicker, but it is highly dependent on ratio advance curve programmed into the controller. Just like chip tuners can program more aggressive spark and fuel maps into an ECU, remapping of the tranny control software may also possible. As with ECU remapping, it may involve trade-offs, but it should be possible.

AllBlackMax

I'm sure you '07'ers could drop a 6spd manual in from an '06 or even order it through the dealer.

4MySwee

iTrader: (2)

I asked when my dealer kept trying to talk me into the '07'. I told them that I like the 'shift shock', not the CVT. I asked if I could order the '07' with a manual. They told me no, after giving me the 'sure, anything can be done, we'll just special order it'!

Apparently, you can't even special order this one with a manual 6-speed!

RHMax

I know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy, that knows a guy who can!

bakilibdmf

i just bought an 07 and cvt is weird, does anyone know without swichin to xtronic how you can drive the car and get the full performance out of it. and the 07 model its become very luxuries it seems like the maxima has lost some handling or am i just tripping?

aria

iTrader: (1)

you must smoke a lot on the weekend... do you know how CVT works?

first look how it works then you can
talk

!PrjctMax!

iTrader: (38)

thanks much i've already said that i was confused and then read and understood it, read all and then talk

logik05se

the car isnt really 6 speed....its just something to have fun with when you throw it in manual mode.

jcalabria

Just floor it and let the computer optimize everything for maximum performance. Switching to manual mode might be useful for holding a gear in the twisties or on a downhill but, otherwise, using the manual mode negates all the advantages of having a tranny that can keep the engine at its torque peak. Counterintuitive (or just plain odd) as it might seem, droning along at 4500 rpm and not reaching red-line is a GOOD thing, performance-wise.

Instead of thinking about the CVT as some refugee from the snowmobile factory, it might be helpful to think of it as an ULTRA-close-ratio stepped gearbox. This is, in fact, exactly what it is. Being controlled by a computer, it is shifting in minutely small discreet increments, which is why the words "nearly" and "virtually" usually accompany the word "infinite" in Nissan's CVT literature.

In any given gear, maximum acceleration will ALWAYS occur when the engine is at its torque peak. Acceleration will always be lower either above or below that torque peak. The idea of a close ratio gearbox is to keep that swing outside the torque peak to a minimum. More gears = closer spacing = better acceleration. The CVT just carries this progression to another magnitude. Now, throw in a sophisticated control system that can maintain the optimum rpm for acceleration AND allow more economical ratios to be selected when maximum acceleration is not required - that's a pretty good thing.

If you don't believe that the CVT can be a performance enhancer, you might want to ask the Williams Formula 1 team why their CVT F1 car was banned back in '94.

So... when your buddies brag about their Mercedes or Lexus close ratio 7 or 8 speed gearboxes, you can tell them you have a 500 speed ultra close ratio transmission in your Max. (500 might not be correct number, but it is certainly multiple orders of magnitude greater than your typical 4/5/6/7/8 speed stepped gearbox)

Regarding the handling, I agree. Compared to my previous SE's, my '07 sometimes feels disconcertingly under-damped. I don't know if this is true for all 6th gens or just the '07. To me, this is a much bigger issue than the CVT and see this as the prime reason why this might be my last Max.

DeusExMaxima

iTrader: (1)

Im just REALLY glad my car has the 6 speed manual after reading all this. Wouldnt have it any other way.

xoomer.com

iTrader: (19)

The BIG question here is whether the CVT is programmed to switch at the engines max torque for performance gains or whether its optimized for most efficient switches for best MPG.

Which one is it?

jcalabria

I can tell you from experience that the answer is... both.

If you're aggressive on the throttle, the tranny will be aggressive and hold the motor at 4500 RPM or so. A medium throttle will hold the motor around 3500 - still in the fat part of the torque curve.

If you tread lightly, however, normal stoplight-to-stoplight driving isn't much different than any other automatic (smoother with no shifts, but no "droning" either). When steady-state cruising, it will stay locked in a tall (and economical) ratio - in that regard it actually feels VERY much like you're "torquing" around a manual in 5th or 6th gear - it has a very solid driveline feel. Moderate dips into the throttle generate a "swelling" feeling very much like a turbo motor building boost. Be aggressive and it will instantly (but smoothly) switch personalities and go like hell.

You really have to drive it for a while to experience and appreciate how well it actually works and adapts to whatever situation you put it in. If you've driven CVTs other than the Max, all I can say is that the Max is totally different from them, too. The programming is more sophisticated and aggressive than in the mechanically similar Murano. The lack of a torque converter makes the Audi CVT very sluggish off the line - the Max CVT jumps off the line just like a 5AT Max. And, if your CVT experience is in a Subaru - that's a whole other world away.

Those that bemoan the loss of the 6MT absolutely have a legitimate gripe with Nissan, but its with the marketing & product manager types that are seeking to change the Max's position in the marketplace. They dropped the 6MT and the CVT replaced the 5AT - two independent decisions that just happened to be made for the same model year. They could have kept the MT alongside the CVT just as they have in the new Altima. The introduction of the CVT had nothing to do with that decision. The CVT compares very favorably to the 5AT that it replaced and the assessment of its merit should not be tainted by the bitter taste generated by the MT decision.

RHMax

The dampers are very soft, make the car feels floaty at times. Stiffer dampers make a hugh difference. It was the same for me when I got my 5th gen; shocks, tires, and sway bar made a big difference then too.

I still have to find sometime to go drive an '07...

jcalabria

I think that dropping the GXE trim level hurt the SE tremendously. It used to be that the GXE was the base model and the SE and GLE were both upmarket versions - one sport-oriented and one-luxury oriented. Now, a base-equipped SE has to serve as the entry model. You can still option out an SE to be the upmarket equal of an SL - just with a slightly more sporty personality. However, it has given up its "SE-ness" for those former GXE shoppers that don't want to "stoop" to an Altima but might not want the real SE-level suspension tuning.

As far as modding the suspension - mine's a lease plus I have other priorities (like kids in college) that preclude the mod routine.

xoomer.com

iTrader: (19)

Interesting...I am yet to test drive one but it won't be anytime soon as I am not looking to "upgrade" yet...but thanks

06maxSE

i agree with the 6 speed guys, nothing better to me then a manual/stick shift car i was pissed when they said they got rid of the manual in the 07 i was gonna get a 07 but then when they told me it was gone with the manual 6 speed i got my 06 right before the 07's came out to make sure i could get the 1 i wanted ended up turning out fine cause i kind of like the 06 better then the 07 the 07 is missing a few things the 06 had first it doesnt have the hidden cigarette lighter in the passanger seat footwell, second it doesnt have the big center arm rest console like in the 06 and i like the climate control buttons better on the 06 better then on the 07 everything else about the 07 except for the intelligent key (which is one thing i would like to have) can be added to the 06 like the spoiler and getting a bumper for the 06 to have fog lights down there so im happy i got the 06 really

kamski

iTrader: (9)

I discoverd at 7th gear in my 6sp manual.

I had to lift this ring thing and put the shifter into the 8th gear position.

The car made some funny noises......... then it just stopped burning fuel and drove.....................on the back of the tow truck.


I'm soooo soo happy i got the manual, when i snap shift and run the car at 6500RPM I feel like a kid in a Candy store. You folks with the Autos and CVTS you are really missing out on a fantastic cog box and the fun associated with it.

Kamski

jcalabria

Don't rub it in... My first 6 cars were all manuals and I enjoyed and excelled at driving them well... but the excruciating pain in my hip when I lift the leg to the clutch pedal is just too much. I recently drove my brother's brand new Mazdaspeed 6. It should have been a blast but it hurt too damn much. I miss it...

kamski

iTrader: (9)

Whats wrong with your leg? Arthritis?

Kamski

jcalabria

Yeah... no cartilage left at all. Hip socket is bone-on-bone.

Not sure if it was a HS football injury (don't remember ever hurting it) or an early 20's pickup basketball game (came down funny on a rebound once and did hurt it), but its been slowly deteriorating since about the end of college. Started getting noticeably bad about ten years ago and nearly debilatating in the past three. I'm about ready for a hip replacement - even sleeping is now painful. Worst part is that avoiding activity has caused weight to go up which taxes it even more... vicious cycle.

xoomer.com

iTrader: (19)

Age takin' its toll. DON"T give up man, you're ONLY 50. Feel better and if need be get something done about it.

SilverMax_04

JC, you are technically correct about peak acceleration occuring at peak torque. But a really big advantage of the new 3.5 VQ engine is the flatness of this engine's torque curve.

I have a Nissan SAE paper on the 3.5 VQ from 2002 (this VQ has a 10.3 to 1 compression ratio -- like my 04) that shows the peak torque occurs at 4800 RPM with 362 SAE net. But the graph shows the torque at or above 350 between 3800 RPM and 5800 RPM (this is 96.7% of peak torque). (I'm also lead to believe that the more recent VQs may even have a flatter torque curve than this test engine from 2002.) So, if you kept the RPMs in that range (3800 to 5800), I suspect you would not see any big difference in acceleration versus keeping the RPMs exactly at 4800 with a CVT.

In some ways even more impressive is that this VQ engine has torque of 330 (91.2% of peak) between 2200 and 6200 RPM. That is amazing. For those who may want to know, this SAE paper is titled: "Third Generation of High Response and High Output 3.5 L V-6 Engine" by 4 Jap Engineers at Nissan -- SAE 2002-01-0450. Sorry I don't have any more recent SAE papers on Nissan's 3.5 VQ engines -- this one may be the most recent.

I just checked a copy I have of the Maxima 2004 "Product Guide" and it shows the 04 Maxima VQ having a peak torque of 255 at 4400 RPM -- so the engine in the SAE paper is not exactly the same as in the 04 Maxima (or Nissan degraded the torque reading they got from an engine that was likely not mass produced). But my main point remains the same -- the 3.5L VQ engine with 10.3 to 1 compression ratio has a very flat torque curve.

Of passing interest (and somewhat confusing), the SAE paper shows that this 3.5L test engine has a peak HP of 216 SAE net at 6000 RPM and the Product Guide shows a peak of 265 hp at 5800 RPM. Suspect that the Guide is not showing net but rather gross HP (but this is only a guess).

In the olden days, the general rule for racing was to keep the engine's RPMs between the maximum torque point (4800 for this test VQ or 4400 for ours) and the maximum HP point (6000 RPMs for the test or 5800 for ours). While you need the torque to get acceleration, you need the HP to overcome wind and other resistence to speed. The CVT may throw this rule out the window -- but I'm not certain that has happened, yet. You certainly don't want to run at or near the redline -- both the HP and the torque are less than maximum at that point.

I have written extensively on other threads here about how Nissan blew it when they abandoned the 6-speed manual trannie in the Maxima. Given the large heat losses CVTs experience (they need two trannie coolers and special oil), I expect that it will be many years before I even consider getting any car (including the Max) with a CVT. With my current driving needs, I intend to keep using a manual trannie as long as I can physically shift the gears and some quality car company offers one.

jcalabria

All correct... no argument from me. More than any other single reason, the VQ is why we all love the Max. My initial post on this subject was in response to someone new to the CVT that commented about the engine not running to redline. Also, I have already stated many times that Nissan blew it by dropping the 6MT. They have lost those folks, such as yourself, who require or desire a manual tranny.

The bug up my butt is from those that dismiss the CVT out-of-hand just because its "different", and from those who blame the loss of the 6MT on the coincidental arrival of the CVT. For 99% of those who prefer (or are stuck with) an automatic, the CVT is the best automatic ever offered in a Maxima. The other 1% who are worried about acceleration above 90 MPH or durability with a heavily modded motor may have legitimate concerns, but they should be discussed in that context, rather than a general condemnation.

I have followed with great interest (and respect) those posts from folks who have actually tested their CVTs and have learned how to get the most from them and where the shortcomings might be. Their testing shows that the CVT is more than competitive in all of the initial "off the line" time to speed/distance parameters when run in full auto (and not so competitive when they took shifting into their own hands - which makes complete sense as it defeats the whole point of the CVT). Those parameters are what are important to the majority of us. They have also learned that at higher speeds the CVT's pre-programmed acceleration curve is probably not aggressive enough - a fact very relevant to them but probably not to the other 99% of us.

I've got nearly 9000 miles on mine and I can say with certainty that the underdamped suspension is the hindrance to having fun in the Max, not the CVT.

2k7max

Very well put. Here is a little known fact, there are 1.5 miilon cvts inoperation in the world today most of those are in the japanese market, and the cvt has been in use for almost ten years by nissan.