Need to borrow 05+ Maxima for header test in SoCal
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,197
From: Displaced New Yorker in Southern, MD
Awesome job Dues, when complete you need to consider adding some sort of Dyno Tuning computer to get the maximum gain from your performance mods, when I first had my headers installed the Dyno came out a 239whp, after tuning my APEXi Super AFC-II the second pull was 243whp, and after further tuning we maxed out at 256whp so tuning is a must to achieve optimum performance!!!
Awesome job Dues, when complete you need to consider adding some sort of Dyno Tuning computer to get the maximum gain from your performance mods, when I first had my headers installed the Dyno came out a 239whp, after tuning my APEXi Super AFC-II the second pull was 243whp, and after further tuning we maxed out at 256whp so tuning is a must to achieve optimum performance!!!
Last edited by anm6; Jul 31, 2008 at 09:04 AM.
Havent heard any word. I'll call today to get status. The plan is to have my stock y pipe returned to the car to get a baseline number. I have the Cattman catback of course because almost everyone would get a cat back of some kind before getting headers. After the baseline number is determined, The Cattman header will be installed and catman y pipe, the car will be dynoed again. Ill kepe you posted. But remember, you didnt here it from me . . . .
Just keep doin it Nmex
Havent heard any word. I'll call today to get status. The plan is to have my stock y pipe returned to the car to get a baseline number. I have the Cattman catback of course because almost everyone would get a cat back of some kind before getting headers. After the baseline number is determined, The Cattman header will be installed and catman y pipe, the car will be dynoed again. Ill kepe you posted. But remember, you didnt here it from me . . . .
Havent heard any word. I'll call today to get status. The plan is to have my stock y pipe returned to the car to get a baseline number. I have the Cattman catback of course because almost everyone would get a cat back of some kind before getting headers. After the baseline number is determined, The Cattman header will be installed and catman y pipe, the car will be dynoed again. Ill kepe you posted. But remember, you didnt here it from me . . . .
Ill be getting the run files on my flashdrive, Nmex. They will do final dyno pulls tomorrow and I believe i'll be present for it. They didnt wrap it up today. Ill get car tomorrow. We are expecting some really good performance numbers. I'll post whatever info I can tomorrow, after discussions with Brian.
OK - the mechanic is a good one although he's not really a Nissan guy. This was the first time he'd R&R'd a set of FWD VQ manifolds and it took about 6 hours for the mechanical work and about 1 hour to lengthen the primary O2 harnesses (when properly located, the O2 ports are too far for the harness to reach - there's no way around it).
Obviously, with experience that should go quite a bit faster. I'd also note that my mechanic had some ideas for speeding up the process that the gentleman doing the installation didn't employ, so I think there's potential for bringing the time down even further.
At least it didn't require the 10 hours that we kept hearing about - thank goodness!
Brian
Obviously, with experience that should go quite a bit faster. I'd also note that my mechanic had some ideas for speeding up the process that the gentleman doing the installation didn't employ, so I think there's potential for bringing the time down even further.
At least it didn't require the 10 hours that we kept hearing about - thank goodness!
Brian
Cool thanx Brian for the great follow up. Are you going to sell the a o2 harness exstention for is this something we have top fab durning install. 6 hours is cool as my friend also owns his own shop. LOL Me too. Can't wait for the numbers. Great work guys.
Last edited by anm6; Aug 1, 2008 at 09:17 AM.
I wish I could just say "yes" about a plug-in extension, but I've tried to do this before. Sounds simple on face value, but when I couldn't find anything "ready-made" I figured we'd go custom, but it turned out to be incredibly complicated and in the end I never found any company capable of creating the extension.
Seems that there are a million different pins and sockets from a large # of different suppliers, and a billion possible combinations, and nobody was willing to do the research to figure out which specific bits were needed and which suppliers could provide them. Invested a lot of time in that attempt, sending plug samples off to a few companies, etc. and came up with nothing. VERY frustrating...
I'd very much like to offer an easy extension, but after that experience, I'm pessimistic. If anyone has some ideas or insights into this I'd like to hear about it, especially if an extension exists already that we can buy. I'd be enormously grateful (hint - that's worth a special discount on a future purchase).
Otherwise, its a matter of getting out the soldering iron or one of those nice soldered connectors with the blob of solder in the clear tubing (stick a wire in from either side and roast it with the heat gun, melting the solder and shrinking the tubing). Remember, O2 sensor wires should NEVER be crimped - has to be a soldered connection.
Brian
Seems that there are a million different pins and sockets from a large # of different suppliers, and a billion possible combinations, and nobody was willing to do the research to figure out which specific bits were needed and which suppliers could provide them. Invested a lot of time in that attempt, sending plug samples off to a few companies, etc. and came up with nothing. VERY frustrating...
I'd very much like to offer an easy extension, but after that experience, I'm pessimistic. If anyone has some ideas or insights into this I'd like to hear about it, especially if an extension exists already that we can buy. I'd be enormously grateful (hint - that's worth a special discount on a future purchase).
Otherwise, its a matter of getting out the soldering iron or one of those nice soldered connectors with the blob of solder in the clear tubing (stick a wire in from either side and roast it with the heat gun, melting the solder and shrinking the tubing). Remember, O2 sensor wires should NEVER be crimped - has to be a soldered connection.
Brian
As DeusExMaxima has indicated, we should receive some dyno #s later today from the shop doing the install work. If I'm satisfied with the results, we'll release them. If not, we'll consider it another step in the R&D process, make some changes to the hardware, and do it again.
Brian
Brian
Prototype dyno results
OK, I'm quite pleased to provide the results from our first dyno test comparing the "before" results (stock y-pipe and manifolds), with the "after" results (Cattman y-pipe and prototype headers). I'm comparing the second run (of 4) in the baseline test with the third run (of 4) in the post-install test. I did not pick the lowest run from the baseline and higest from the post-install test; both runs are in the middle of their groups.
Graphs are a good visual aid, but I like to work with the real numbers. Here's a summary of the information I came up with after downloading the numerical results to a spreadsheet.
Max HP "stock" (across entire rpm range): 233.2
Max HP "CP header/Y" (across entire rpm range): 258.3 (+25.1)
Max TQ "stock" (across entire rpm range): 233.1
Max TQ "CP header/Y" (across entire rpm range): 252.3 (+19.2)
Maximum HP difference (at same RPM level): +27.7 @ 6600 and 6950 rpm (it hit 30.1 @ 5500 but that seems like an anomaly)
Strongest HP gains were in the 6350-6950 range (23.1-27.7 whp)
Maximum TQ difference (at same RPM level): +29.8 @ 4600 rpm (it hit 30.1 @ 5500 but that seems like an anomaly)
Strongest TQ gains were in the 4500-5000 range (24.1-29.8 ft/lbs)
I especially like to compare average HP/TQ across specific RPM ranges because it gets rid of "peaky" high or low results that can skew perceptions one way or another. A fat average gain says it all. Here are some examples (first # is baseline, second is post-install):
These are the average #s across the entire "useful" rpm range (3000rpm+)
AVG HP 3k-6.9k: 196.1 vs 214.6, +18.6whp
AVG TQ 3k-6.9k: 210.5 vs 229.4, +18.9ft/lbs
These average HP and TQ figures break the 3k-7kRPM range down into 1000rpm increments.
AVG HP 3k-3.9k: 149.3 vs 156.5, +7.2whp
AVG TQ 3k-3.9k: 225.3 vs 235.9, +10.6ft/lbs
AVG HP 4k-4.9k: 187.6 vs 208.1, +20.5whp
AVG TQ 4k-4.9k: 220.5 vs 244.5, +24.0ft/lbs
AVG HP 5k-5.9k: 219.2 vs 241.6, +22.4whp
AVG TQ 5k-5.9k: 210.5 vs 232.1, +21.6ft/lbs
AVG HP 6k-6.9k: 228.3 vs 252.4, +24.1whp
AVG TQ 6k-6.9k: 185.5 vs 205.0, +19.5ft/lbs
I hope this information is useful. Let's keep in mind that all this proves is that the parts fit (well) on the car and they make (good) power. Of course the represents progress, but we still have to see what happens with CEL issues, and find a solution if necessary.
BTW, if anyone would like the excel spreadsheet with the complete tabular data (broken down in to 50rpm increments) just send an email address and I'll reply with the .xls file.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Graphs are a good visual aid, but I like to work with the real numbers. Here's a summary of the information I came up with after downloading the numerical results to a spreadsheet.
Max HP "stock" (across entire rpm range): 233.2
Max HP "CP header/Y" (across entire rpm range): 258.3 (+25.1)
Max TQ "stock" (across entire rpm range): 233.1
Max TQ "CP header/Y" (across entire rpm range): 252.3 (+19.2)
Maximum HP difference (at same RPM level): +27.7 @ 6600 and 6950 rpm (it hit 30.1 @ 5500 but that seems like an anomaly)
Strongest HP gains were in the 6350-6950 range (23.1-27.7 whp)
Maximum TQ difference (at same RPM level): +29.8 @ 4600 rpm (it hit 30.1 @ 5500 but that seems like an anomaly)
Strongest TQ gains were in the 4500-5000 range (24.1-29.8 ft/lbs)
I especially like to compare average HP/TQ across specific RPM ranges because it gets rid of "peaky" high or low results that can skew perceptions one way or another. A fat average gain says it all. Here are some examples (first # is baseline, second is post-install):
These are the average #s across the entire "useful" rpm range (3000rpm+)
AVG HP 3k-6.9k: 196.1 vs 214.6, +18.6whp
AVG TQ 3k-6.9k: 210.5 vs 229.4, +18.9ft/lbs
These average HP and TQ figures break the 3k-7kRPM range down into 1000rpm increments.
AVG HP 3k-3.9k: 149.3 vs 156.5, +7.2whp
AVG TQ 3k-3.9k: 225.3 vs 235.9, +10.6ft/lbs
AVG HP 4k-4.9k: 187.6 vs 208.1, +20.5whp
AVG TQ 4k-4.9k: 220.5 vs 244.5, +24.0ft/lbs
AVG HP 5k-5.9k: 219.2 vs 241.6, +22.4whp
AVG TQ 5k-5.9k: 210.5 vs 232.1, +21.6ft/lbs
AVG HP 6k-6.9k: 228.3 vs 252.4, +24.1whp
AVG TQ 6k-6.9k: 185.5 vs 205.0, +19.5ft/lbs
I hope this information is useful. Let's keep in mind that all this proves is that the parts fit (well) on the car and they make (good) power. Of course the represents progress, but we still have to see what happens with CEL issues, and find a solution if necessary.
BTW, if anyone would like the excel spreadsheet with the complete tabular data (broken down in to 50rpm increments) just send an email address and I'll reply with the .xls file.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Last edited by Cattman; Aug 1, 2008 at 04:17 PM.
Very impressive numbers Brian, congrats. Hope fully it all works out. Did you move the o2 sensors to a common collector to be read using information from all 3 cylinders? unlike the altima headers of old?
Thanks Joe,
Good practice dictates that the primary sensors plug in at or below the base of the 3-1 collector (as you know, NOT on a primary tube). We wouldn't design it any other way. It means that the wires have to be extended, but that's how it is.
Howzabout developing/fabricating some Racingline O2 harness extensions? Everytime I think about that I break out in a cold sweat because after a bunch of wasted time I never got anywhere with a previous attempt. I suspect there are others who could succeed where I failed...
Brian
Last edited by Cattman; Aug 1, 2008 at 05:24 PM.
BTW, I purchased the Cipher program for this project (at Jim W's suggestion), anticipating the possible need to compare the entire range of before and after sensor data in case we run into CEL issues from the primary O2 sensors (a la Hotshot). Deus did a data log before these were installed, and will do another one in a few days. Since I had it sent directly to Deus for this project, I haven't even see it yet, but the features are pretty cool. I'm lookiing forward to plugging it into my Titan.
Brian
I was pretty excited to get the car back today. The first thing I did was to drive it about a mile to get first impressions. I then had my daughter drive it on the freeway and on some side streets for about 20 miles just to hear it from the outside. I drove around different positions - behind, left side, right side - and different distances to see how it sounded. Then I drove the car on freeway and side streets for about 20 miles the rest of the way home to hear it from the inside and see how it felt. Here is my opinion:
Subject car is equipped with prototype Cattman headers, non-catalytic converter y pipe, and non-resonator equipped Cattman catback exhaust.
Feel - The car throttle is VERY responsive. Not much throttle input to rev motor and motor revs more freely. That's something a dyno cant see - qualitative feel. (I have 6 speed manual tranny) First gear is rendered almost unusable due to tire spin. THATS A GOOD THING!!! Careful modulation keeps tires from spinning - oh, and thats with traction control ON. Power is furious, but probably not turbo furious. I can get to 80 in a heartbeat. After 3,500 rpms, the pull is mighty strong. All this is backed up by dyno numbers (hint, hint Nmex, lol)
Sound - This is a subjective area. What sounds good to one might not to another. I can break this down into 4 areas, loudness outside, quality outside, loudness inside, quality inside. Remember, my car has the very few non-resonator equipped catback exhausts. The only things quieting the exhaust are the two Magnaflow mufflers - no cats, no resonators.
Loudness outside - Ok, well its sounds loud to me, but it might not be too loud for you. If you have a resonator, it will be much quieter. I have one one its way mid week next week.
Quality outside - It sounds incredible outside, simply wonderful. Its mean and . . . well it sounds mean. Its got a strong growl, with a some raspiness. It sunds better in person. It sounds harsher on the camera. So no *****ing. Oh, u know what? How bout a video/audio clip?
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y97...t=PICT1530.flv
Loudness inside - I have some insulation in the trunk, and that quiets it down some inside. Its not as bad as one would think inside. It was louder, but not unbearable. I found it surprisingly quiet.
Quality inside - The bit of raspiness is much more muted inside. No need to listen to the radio for entertainment. Its a joy!!! Anyone want a used Bose stereo??? hehe The cacophony of exhaust coupled with the intake is marvelous. Its a symphony of bliss. Er . . .sorry, getting silly now. Lets just say, my daughter took the car to show off for friends and came back several hours later. Here is a clip from inside
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y97...t=PICT1531.flv
Here are some pics of the first Maxima-specific headers:
Remember, if ordered with cat, its going to have a softer sound and be environmentally friendly. Ur all wondering about the check engine light. This header is a prototype and needs fine tuning. We have some probable solutions for it, but we are still in the design phase. Thats marketing gobbledygook for "we havent specifically dealt with this aspect, but will in next 2 weeks." There you have it. Questions? Comments?
Subject car is equipped with prototype Cattman headers, non-catalytic converter y pipe, and non-resonator equipped Cattman catback exhaust.
Feel - The car throttle is VERY responsive. Not much throttle input to rev motor and motor revs more freely. That's something a dyno cant see - qualitative feel. (I have 6 speed manual tranny) First gear is rendered almost unusable due to tire spin. THATS A GOOD THING!!! Careful modulation keeps tires from spinning - oh, and thats with traction control ON. Power is furious, but probably not turbo furious. I can get to 80 in a heartbeat. After 3,500 rpms, the pull is mighty strong. All this is backed up by dyno numbers (hint, hint Nmex, lol)
Sound - This is a subjective area. What sounds good to one might not to another. I can break this down into 4 areas, loudness outside, quality outside, loudness inside, quality inside. Remember, my car has the very few non-resonator equipped catback exhausts. The only things quieting the exhaust are the two Magnaflow mufflers - no cats, no resonators.
Loudness outside - Ok, well its sounds loud to me, but it might not be too loud for you. If you have a resonator, it will be much quieter. I have one one its way mid week next week.
Quality outside - It sounds incredible outside, simply wonderful. Its mean and . . . well it sounds mean. Its got a strong growl, with a some raspiness. It sunds better in person. It sounds harsher on the camera. So no *****ing. Oh, u know what? How bout a video/audio clip?
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y97...t=PICT1530.flv
Loudness inside - I have some insulation in the trunk, and that quiets it down some inside. Its not as bad as one would think inside. It was louder, but not unbearable. I found it surprisingly quiet.
Quality inside - The bit of raspiness is much more muted inside. No need to listen to the radio for entertainment. Its a joy!!! Anyone want a used Bose stereo??? hehe The cacophony of exhaust coupled with the intake is marvelous. Its a symphony of bliss. Er . . .sorry, getting silly now. Lets just say, my daughter took the car to show off for friends and came back several hours later. Here is a clip from inside
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y97...t=PICT1531.flv
Here are some pics of the first Maxima-specific headers:
Remember, if ordered with cat, its going to have a softer sound and be environmentally friendly. Ur all wondering about the check engine light. This header is a prototype and needs fine tuning. We have some probable solutions for it, but we are still in the design phase. Thats marketing gobbledygook for "we havent specifically dealt with this aspect, but will in next 2 weeks." There you have it. Questions? Comments?
Last edited by DeusExMaxima; Aug 1, 2008 at 08:29 PM.
That is the most beautiful sounding thing short of a f430 I've heard. MY GOD!!! Great work/ writeup as usual Deus. Those numbers look awesome Brian! Glad we've reached this point finally, though I understand a little more is needed. GOOD STUFF.
