Regular Vs. Premium: Who's using what?
11-21-2008, 10:04 PM
#121
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
Actually, Nissan does not mention 93 octane. They say to use PREMIUM, and BOTH 93 and 91 octane ARE PREMIUM. 91 is is the highest octane available in parts of the country. As jcalabria mentioned, 91 is the octane Nissan designed this engine for, and any octane higher than 91 has little or no impact on performance.
This car would probably run almost as well on 89 octane, but 89 octane is MIDGRADE, not premium. I would not consider putting 87 octane (REGULAR) in an '09 except in a true emergency, and would put in the least amount I could get by with until I could top off with premium. I would also drive very very gingerly while using regular.
11-23-2008, 07:24 AM
#123
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central MA
Posts: 20
This debate rages on every board regardless of make and model.
I have engaged in it on Acura boards VW boards Audi boards and MB boards.
Ultimately use what you want PERIOD.
I asked the dealer the day of my delivery to NOT put 87 in the car. I would forgo the free fill up if it the dealership uses 87. (they do)
The dealer said it wouldnt make a difference. I pointed out that Nissan must have wasted their money on the sticker in the fuel door then....The dealer countered with it is "recomended" but not essential. I asked if I could use 10W40 oil (I was now baiting him) He said GOD NO...Nissan specfically calls for 5w30. I said "just like 87 vs 93...he changed the subject. I rested my case.
I let them fill it with 87.
I will run it dry and fill with 93 for the rest of my ownership.
The only empirical knowledge I have, in my history with cars is that I truly notice a difference and can actually tell when the 07 Honda Odyssey in our fleet has a belly full of 87 cause it knocks like crazy. It knocks less with 89 and not at all with 93.
I had a Chevy Beretta in H.S. with a Quad-4 (dont laugh) It ran like poop on 87
I notice no difference in the following vehicles in our fleet past and present Regardless of fuel used.
Audi A6 03 06 and 08
VW Passat 99, 01, 04, 06
E Class MB 97, 00,03, 05, 08
Acura MDX & TL 03, 05, 08
Cadi Deville 02, 05, 08
HOWEVER...YOUR actual mileage and expierience may vary.
Just my .02 nothing more.
happy motoring.
JDP
I have engaged in it on Acura boards VW boards Audi boards and MB boards.
Ultimately use what you want PERIOD.
I asked the dealer the day of my delivery to NOT put 87 in the car. I would forgo the free fill up if it the dealership uses 87. (they do)
The dealer said it wouldnt make a difference. I pointed out that Nissan must have wasted their money on the sticker in the fuel door then....The dealer countered with it is "recomended" but not essential. I asked if I could use 10W40 oil (I was now baiting him) He said GOD NO...Nissan specfically calls for 5w30. I said "just like 87 vs 93...he changed the subject. I rested my case.
I let them fill it with 87.
I will run it dry and fill with 93 for the rest of my ownership.
The only empirical knowledge I have, in my history with cars is that I truly notice a difference and can actually tell when the 07 Honda Odyssey in our fleet has a belly full of 87 cause it knocks like crazy. It knocks less with 89 and not at all with 93.
I had a Chevy Beretta in H.S. with a Quad-4 (dont laugh) It ran like poop on 87
I notice no difference in the following vehicles in our fleet past and present Regardless of fuel used.
Audi A6 03 06 and 08
VW Passat 99, 01, 04, 06
E Class MB 97, 00,03, 05, 08
Acura MDX & TL 03, 05, 08
Cadi Deville 02, 05, 08
HOWEVER...YOUR actual mileage and expierience may vary.
Just my .02 nothing more.
happy motoring.
JDP
11-23-2008, 01:20 PM
#124
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
Please do not run your Maxima tank dry, as this risks damaging the fuel pump, which is inside the tank and depends on being immersed in fuel to prevent overheating. Should you accidentally run out of gas, you risk damaging the catalytic converter.
Also, why not top off with premium after using a third or half of the tank of 87? The higher compression of the '09 Maxima (higher than previous gens) would love it.
12-08-2008, 07:21 AM
#131
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Staten Island,NY
Posts: 700
you baught a brand car that is most likely more than 30grand and dont want to put 93 octane? are you efin kidding me?!?!? and the user maual says premium fuel only!
im a college student who work part time making like 8 buck an hour and i get BP 93 gas on my every single time. no matter how expensive it is.
some of you guys grown men with full time jobs, you guys should ashamed of your selves if you put anything other than 93 or highest available octane level on your new maxima.
some car manufactures are starting to state how much HP you will loose on reguler vs. premium. i.e hyundai with their v8 genesis sedan.
(sorry if i sound really angry, coffee does wierd things)
im a college student who work part time making like 8 buck an hour and i get BP 93 gas on my every single time. no matter how expensive it is.
some of you guys grown men with full time jobs, you guys should ashamed of your selves if you put anything other than 93 or highest available octane level on your new maxima.
some car manufactures are starting to state how much HP you will loose on reguler vs. premium. i.e hyundai with their v8 genesis sedan.
(sorry if i sound really angry, coffee does wierd things)
Last edited by dineth00i30; 12-08-2008 at 07:25 AM.
12-08-2008, 12:56 PM
#133
I have always followed the owners manual especially since she is 30K+ car I have not used anything less than 91 oct. And even more so now with gas prices finally coming back down to earth, here in Missouri reg unleaded is at $1.33 in most places and at one pump I have found it at $1.21 with the Premium 91 oct at $1.55 it cost me $24.50 to fill up the other day and I almost cried!!!!!
I used to have a big @ss truck that used to cost me over a bill (100.00) to fill from empty. I love my MAX!!!!! I am currenty averaging 24 mpg over the last three tanks, that's cruzing the highway at 75-80. I am sure I could get more if I throttled her back down to 60-65 on the road but I hate getting passed :-)
I used to have a big @ss truck that used to cost me over a bill (100.00) to fill from empty. I love my MAX!!!!! I am currenty averaging 24 mpg over the last three tanks, that's cruzing the highway at 75-80. I am sure I could get more if I throttled her back down to 60-65 on the road but I hate getting passed :-)
12-25-2008, 10:02 PM
#134
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA.
Posts: 97
We have 100 octane race fuel at the local 76 Station! I tried it on my old Altima SE-R, it ran nicely a bit smoother, power was normal. I'll probably try it one day on my 7th Gen. I need to fill up my Dad's Italian big boy with that, I think in that I will find a difference!
01-05-2009, 12:03 PM
#135
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Exton, PA
Posts: 15
I use 93 Sunoco all the time in my 02 maxima and 2006 altima SE-R....the price difference is like 2 cents from 91 octane and gas is now cheap, so as others said - who cares?
Haha, just wait till it shoots up to $4 a gallon and then this thread will become hot again
Haha, just wait till it shoots up to $4 a gallon and then this thread will become hot again
01-07-2009, 11:10 AM
#137
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Great forum, I just had to sign up...this is my 1st new car after all!!
I've been hunting for gas stations with no ethanol mixed in the gas. I found one BP here (N. Alabama)...I was curious, does the brand BP, Chevron, Shell etc. determine whether or not they mix in ethanol or is it the individual station? I remember when Chevron didn't have ethanol, now they do. I'm not really sure I want my new car running on those blends.
Anyone feel the same way? Know of any brands that don't mix in ethanol in the SE U.S.? Where do you guys buy gas?
I've been hunting for gas stations with no ethanol mixed in the gas. I found one BP here (N. Alabama)...I was curious, does the brand BP, Chevron, Shell etc. determine whether or not they mix in ethanol or is it the individual station? I remember when Chevron didn't have ethanol, now they do. I'm not really sure I want my new car running on those blends.
Anyone feel the same way? Know of any brands that don't mix in ethanol in the SE U.S.? Where do you guys buy gas?
07-14-2011, 12:52 PM
#138
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Delaware
Posts: 369
Light, what you state WAS true in the days before knock sensors and computer controlled ignition timing (or in a lab test where ignition timing is not a variable). In the days of fixed ignition curves, if there was no knock, there was no point in using premium fuel. There is nothing inherent in premium fuel that would deliver more power or MPG under those circumstances. HOWEVER, the return of high compression engines coupled to knock sensors and variable ignition timing has introduced a way that octane CAN effect both torque and efficiency.
Higher compression ratios are directly related to higher torque output at lower fuel consumption rates, so engine designers like higher compression ratios. Like everything else, higher compression ratios have a downside: the higher cylinder pressures they create increase the likelihood of destructive knocking. In comes higher octane fuel to the rescue... its higher resistance to knock - its ONLY redeeming quality - keeping engines from self destructing.
Now everybody is happy, EXCEPT that premium fuel might not always be available. So modern engines are equipped with a secondary defense against knocking.... retarding ignition timing to lower cylinder pressures, initiated when microphonic sensors detect knocking in progress.
What effect does retarding ignition timing have? It REDUCES torque and INCREASES fuel consumption, throwing away the gains in that area created by the higher compression ratio in the first place.
If you are using regular fuel in your high compression, knock sensor equipped Maxima, just because you haven't heard knocking doesn't mean that it didn't occur... the knock sensor just heard it first and the engine went into self preservation mode, retarding ignition and, inescapably, reducing torque and increasing fuel consumption.
In the end, cars that recommend premium fuel are just giving you the choice of either allowing the fuel to prevent knocking in the first place or to rely on compromised ignition timing to suppress the knocking when it inevitably occurs. What makes the most sense for a particular driver depends on a few factors, but mainly on the price differential between fuel grades and how often the car is driven in under knock-conducive conditions.
If you are running predominantly in steady state highway cruise mode, save your money and use regular fuel because you are not likely to be creating much knock under those conditions. The best candidates for taking advantage of premium fuel are economy minded MT or CVT drivers who short shift in low speed traffic and allow the engine to run under high load at low engine speed - prime knocking territory. Everything else falls somewhere in between.
BTW, the removal of the word "recommended" in the 7G's premium fuel requirement statement indicates that Nissan has pushed engine parameters sufficiently far enough - to increase both output and fuel efficiency - that ignition retardation may no longer be sufficient to prevent knock under everyday driving conditions. Personally, I wouldn't think twice about using anything but premium fuel in a 7G. However, if your driving conditions are not particularly conducive to knock, you might get away with regular or mid-grade fuel. I'd recommend listening awfully closely for knock if you make that risky choice.
Higher compression ratios are directly related to higher torque output at lower fuel consumption rates, so engine designers like higher compression ratios. Like everything else, higher compression ratios have a downside: the higher cylinder pressures they create increase the likelihood of destructive knocking. In comes higher octane fuel to the rescue... its higher resistance to knock - its ONLY redeeming quality - keeping engines from self destructing.
Now everybody is happy, EXCEPT that premium fuel might not always be available. So modern engines are equipped with a secondary defense against knocking.... retarding ignition timing to lower cylinder pressures, initiated when microphonic sensors detect knocking in progress.
What effect does retarding ignition timing have? It REDUCES torque and INCREASES fuel consumption, throwing away the gains in that area created by the higher compression ratio in the first place.
If you are using regular fuel in your high compression, knock sensor equipped Maxima, just because you haven't heard knocking doesn't mean that it didn't occur... the knock sensor just heard it first and the engine went into self preservation mode, retarding ignition and, inescapably, reducing torque and increasing fuel consumption.
In the end, cars that recommend premium fuel are just giving you the choice of either allowing the fuel to prevent knocking in the first place or to rely on compromised ignition timing to suppress the knocking when it inevitably occurs. What makes the most sense for a particular driver depends on a few factors, but mainly on the price differential between fuel grades and how often the car is driven in under knock-conducive conditions.
If you are running predominantly in steady state highway cruise mode, save your money and use regular fuel because you are not likely to be creating much knock under those conditions. The best candidates for taking advantage of premium fuel are economy minded MT or CVT drivers who short shift in low speed traffic and allow the engine to run under high load at low engine speed - prime knocking territory. Everything else falls somewhere in between.
BTW, the removal of the word "recommended" in the 7G's premium fuel requirement statement indicates that Nissan has pushed engine parameters sufficiently far enough - to increase both output and fuel efficiency - that ignition retardation may no longer be sufficient to prevent knock under everyday driving conditions. Personally, I wouldn't think twice about using anything but premium fuel in a 7G. However, if your driving conditions are not particularly conducive to knock, you might get away with regular or mid-grade fuel. I'd recommend listening awfully closely for knock if you make that risky choice.
Blaxima is my new daily driver. I put roughly 1000 miles a week driving to and from work, mostly highway miles each direction. I fill up three times a week. Five to 10 dollars more a fill-up is going to add close to $100 dollars to an already ridiculously high monthly gas bill.
I knew going in that this car was going to cost me more in gas than my Sentra did. Adding the cost of premium fuel on top of that is just not bearable for me at this point. I'd love to get the most out of this engine as possible but it's either the car or taking the wife out. Since I do have the car I wanted, might as well take care of the missus.
07-14-2011, 12:59 PM
#139
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Delaware
Posts: 369
you baught a brand car that is most likely more than 30grand and dont want to put 93 octane? are you efin kidding me?!?!? and the user maual says premium fuel only!
im a college student who work part time making like 8 buck an hour and i get BP 93 gas on my every single time. no matter how expensive it is.
some of you guys grown men with full time jobs, you guys should ashamed of your selves if you put anything other than 93 or highest available octane level on your new maxima.
some car manufactures are starting to state how much HP you will loose on reguler vs. premium. i.e hyundai with their v8 genesis sedan.
(sorry if i sound really angry, coffee does wierd things)
im a college student who work part time making like 8 buck an hour and i get BP 93 gas on my every single time. no matter how expensive it is.
some of you guys grown men with full time jobs, you guys should ashamed of your selves if you put anything other than 93 or highest available octane level on your new maxima.
some car manufactures are starting to state how much HP you will loose on reguler vs. premium. i.e hyundai with their v8 genesis sedan.
(sorry if i sound really angry, coffee does wierd things)
I know we don't get graded on our posts but it does add a little more credibility to what you're saying if you say it (spell it) correctly. Just my 2 cents...
07-14-2011, 05:29 PM
#141
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,650
When gas prices were $4.00 for 87 octane and $4.20 for 91 octane it only cost $3.00 dollars more to fill the tank with 15 gallons of premium.
15 gal X $4.00 = $60.00 = 360 mile range @ 24 MPG
15 gal X $4.20 = $63.00 = 375 mile range @ 25 MPG
The extra $3.00 will get you 15 miles farther down the road.
$3.00 saved buying 87 octane will get you 3/4 gallon which = 18 miles down the road.
You are not saving anything buying 87 octane, and you will enjoy the car a lot more using premium.
15 gal X $4.00 = $60.00 = 360 mile range @ 24 MPG
15 gal X $4.20 = $63.00 = 375 mile range @ 25 MPG
The extra $3.00 will get you 15 miles farther down the road.
$3.00 saved buying 87 octane will get you 3/4 gallon which = 18 miles down the road.
You are not saving anything buying 87 octane, and you will enjoy the car a lot more using premium.
07-14-2011, 11:07 PM
#142
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
When gas prices were $4.00 for 87 octane and $4.20 for 91 octane it only cost $3.00 dollars more to fill the tank with 15 gallons of premium.
15 gal X $4.00 = $60.00 = 360 mile range @ 24 MPG
15 gal X $4.20 = $63.00 = 375 mile range @ 25 MPG
The extra $3.00 will get you 15 miles farther down the road.
$3.00 saved buying 87 octane will get you 3/4 gallon which = 18 miles down the road.
You are not saving anything buying 87 octane, and you will enjoy the car a lot more using premium.
15 gal X $4.00 = $60.00 = 360 mile range @ 24 MPG
15 gal X $4.20 = $63.00 = 375 mile range @ 25 MPG
The extra $3.00 will get you 15 miles farther down the road.
$3.00 saved buying 87 octane will get you 3/4 gallon which = 18 miles down the road.
You are not saving anything buying 87 octane, and you will enjoy the car a lot more using premium.
This 7th gen should not be driven with 87 octane. It does fine with 89 octane (midgrade) or higher (premium). But several here who tried regular found their cars would barely run. Some here are running regular, but I personally feel 87 octane is so far from the intended (91) octane fuel for this vehicle that they are causing their fuel system/engine to run inefficiently.
Gas prices vary widely, even within the same region. Around where I live, the gap between 87 and 91 octanes reached 54 cents/gallon at one time, and has almost never been below 30 cents.
But by using midgrade, I save 15 cents per gallon, which is only around $2.50 saved per tankful. I did not drop to midgrade as much to save money as because I have found all my Maximas (at least one from every gen going back to Oct 1984) have all performed exactly the same and gotten exactly the same MPG on midgrade as on premium.
Of course the 20,000 posters here each know what is best for their baby. For most, they simply use premium, because that leaves no doubt in their mind that they have done the best they can do to pamper their car.
07-15-2011, 05:18 AM
#144
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Delaware
Posts: 369
Thanks for the dialogue and numbers, fellas. I'll start putting in premium and post back with the differences in a few weeks. As it is now, with regular, I can get over 550 miles out of a full tank, at an average of 65+ MPH highway driving.
07-20-2011, 05:19 PM
#146
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
Urban rumors to the contrary, both scientists and folks who very carefully measure their MPG over an extended period of months know the MPG will not change by moving to premium, as MPG is not directly connected to octane. Of course that assumes the engine was running efficiently on regular; many 7th gen Maximas run very poorly on 87 octane.
07-20-2011, 05:59 PM
#148
Blaxima is my new daily driver. I put roughly 1000 miles a week driving to and from work, mostly highway miles each direction. I fill up three times a week. Five to 10 dollars more a fill-up is going to add close to $100 dollars to an already ridiculously high monthly gas bill.
I've only ever used 93, and I was doing the 1000 miles a week when gas was like 5 bucks for premium and people had the nerve to ***** about 4 dollar 87, when standing in line at the cashier buying cigarettes and scratch offs
07-20-2011, 06:40 PM
#149
Keep in mind that we go to higher octanes for performance, acceleration, etc, not higher MPG.
Urban rumors to the contrary, both scientists and folks who very carefully measure their MPG over an extended period of months know the MPG will not change by moving to premium, as MPG is not directly connected to octane. Of course that assumes the engine was running efficiently on regular; many 7th gen Maximas run very poorly on 87 octane.
Urban rumors to the contrary, both scientists and folks who very carefully measure their MPG over an extended period of months know the MPG will not change by moving to premium, as MPG is not directly connected to octane. Of course that assumes the engine was running efficiently on regular; many 7th gen Maximas run very poorly on 87 octane.
I use nothing but 93 octane. If I had the right storage place to do it, I'd probably buy barrels of toluene and mix my own gas for even higher octane. But, then again, I am an engineer. Of course I want the best!
07-20-2011, 11:51 PM
#150
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: a meadow south of Atlanta
Posts: 8,143
Very true! The greatest impact of higher grade fuel is more high dollar detergents for our engines. Detergents mean that fuel is not such a rude dirty, thing that it used to be, unless you buy 87. When you buy premium fuel, rest assured that you are buying the clean stuff for your engine, if you buy at the right places. Shell, BP, Exxon, and other Major "Fuel" suppliers use better detergents in higher concentrations. They have to do so to preserve their brand equity. They cannot risk otherwise, so these are safe bets. Marathon, Kangaroo, Lil Champ, etc. do not specialize in gas, but rather convenience. You will not get as good gas quality with them.
I use nothing but 93 octane. If I had the right storage place to do it, I'd probably buy barrels of toluene and mix my own gas for even higher octane. But, then again, I am an engineer. Of course I want the best!
I use nothing but 93 octane. If I had the right storage place to do it, I'd probably buy barrels of toluene and mix my own gas for even higher octane. But, then again, I am an engineer. Of course I want the best!
I have had a pattern I have rigidly followed for a few decades (all with Maximas, of course). I use only premium the first 18 months after buying my Maxima, carefully measuring fuel efficiency. Then I switch to midgrade until time for my next Maxima (first model year of every generation), continuing to carefully measure fuel efficiency and try to note any difference in performance.
My fuel efficiency has never changed between midgrade and premium. I am not an aggressive driver. But if I was doing elapsed time runs, I would expect premium fuel to have the best time by a smidgen. I have never put regular in any of my Maximas.
If I lived where premium was only a dime more than midgrade, I wouldn't bother with midgrade. But stations around me have large gaps between grades. The difference between regular and premium near me varies from 30 cents per gallon to 55 cents per gallon (when gas hit its all time high a few years back). I could afford to pay the ridiculous difference, but choose to put my money in treasury bills instead.
I agree that using premium over midgrade would probably leave the engine cleaner, and using premium over regular would make for a much cleaner engine, hence running more efficiently.
07-23-2011, 08:46 AM
#152
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 439
LMAO... More detergents? They all have the same detergents 87,89,91,93... The only difference is That 87 has a lower activation energy than 93. So it can with stand the higher compression and won't prematurely combust (knocking) other than that they are the same gasoline with the same detergents 'so rest assured' whether you buy 87 or 93 your getting the same quality of gasoline... Quality is based on brand, and even that is a slim difference.
Very true! The greatest impact of higher grade fuel is more high dollar detergents for our engines. Detergents mean that fuel is not such a rude dirty, thing that it used to be, unless you buy 87. When you buy premium fuel, rest assured that you are buying the clean stuff for your engine, if you buy at the right places. Shell, BP, Exxon, and other Major "Fuel" suppliers use better detergents in higher concentrations. They have to do so to preserve their brand equity. They cannot risk otherwise, so these are safe bets. Marathon, Kangaroo, Lil Champ, etc. do not specialize in gas, but rather convenience. You will not get as good gas quality with them.
I use nothing but 93 octane. If I had the right storage place to do it, I'd probably buy barrels of toluene and mix my own gas for even higher octane. But, then again, I am an engineer. Of course I want the best!
I use nothing but 93 octane. If I had the right storage place to do it, I'd probably buy barrels of toluene and mix my own gas for even higher octane. But, then again, I am an engineer. Of course I want the best!
07-23-2011, 03:11 PM
#155
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 171
LMAO... More detergents? They all have the same detergents 87,89,91,93... The only difference is That 87 has a lower activation energy than 93. So it can with stand the higher compression and won't prematurely combust (knocking) other than that they are the same gasoline with the same detergents 'so rest assured' whether you buy 87 or 93 your getting the same quality of gasoline... Quality is based on brand, and even that is a slim difference.
Consumer Reports reported on detergents added to gas about 15-20 years ago. At the time, they found that Hess and Texaco added the same detergents in their 87 octane as they did in the 93. The other brands did not. So, they reported that Hess and Texaco were the best stations to use if you use 87 and think the additives are good for your engine.
07-24-2011, 08:53 AM
#157
FWIW, Where this idea may have come from..
Consumer Reports reported on detergents added to gas about 15-20 years ago. At the time, they found that Hess and Texaco added the same detergents in their 87 octane as they did in the 93. The other brands did not. So, they reported that Hess and Texaco were the best stations to use if you use 87 and think the additives are good for your engine.
Consumer Reports reported on detergents added to gas about 15-20 years ago. At the time, they found that Hess and Texaco added the same detergents in their 87 octane as they did in the 93. The other brands did not. So, they reported that Hess and Texaco were the best stations to use if you use 87 and think the additives are good for your engine.
07-25-2011, 10:04 AM
#160
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Delaware
Posts: 369
Just to give everyone an update...
First, thanks for all of the suggestions and opinions - very valuable.
I decided to go with premium for my last fill-up. Man! What a difference! This car was already a joy to drive. Now it seems to have gotten a shot of adrenaline because the response is just instantaneous.
As far as the gas mileage... well, I can't keep my foot out of it and drive like a normal human being to actually gauge my mileage!
First, thanks for all of the suggestions and opinions - very valuable.
I decided to go with premium for my last fill-up. Man! What a difference! This car was already a joy to drive. Now it seems to have gotten a shot of adrenaline because the response is just instantaneous.
As far as the gas mileage... well, I can't keep my foot out of it and drive like a normal human being to actually gauge my mileage!