View Poll Results: Do you think Nissan/Infiniti Should Have DRL?
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll
Day Time Running Lights
#1
Day Time Running Lights
Ok so i was looking to do a fog light bypass that i found out how to do online so while opening the fuse box under the hood and looking for the tail light fuse i ran across a fuse title dtrl. Now ik that stands for Day time running lights. Since there is a fuse in its place i was jw y the US models dont have this capability and if it would be possible to have this setting turned on at a nissan dealership? if not is there any other way?
#3
#5
IMHO it's not effective, believe me I see the idiot behind me when they are tailgating my bumper irregardless if they have DRL's on or not.... It doesn't stop them from rear ending my car.
#6
+1 on that
I do agree with you but i also have to disagree to some extent. Your right you can still see them in your rearview. What i'm talking about is when your on the highway and you wanna turn into another land and say you look quick and didn't notice the car cause they were out of your site then all of a sudden you go to merge into the next lane and you hear a horn... The stupid person was speeding and they came up on you so quick that you didnt even see them. Now if they had DRL you would have seen there car from further back.
I do agree with you but i also have to disagree to some extent. Your right you can still see them in your rearview. What i'm talking about is when your on the highway and you wanna turn into another land and say you look quick and didn't notice the car cause they were out of your site then all of a sudden you go to merge into the next lane and you hear a horn... The stupid person was speeding and they came up on you so quick that you didnt even see them. Now if they had DRL you would have seen there car from further back.
#7
I do agree with you but i also have to disagree to some extent. Your right you can still see them in your rearview. What i'm talking about is when your on the highway and you wanna turn into another land and say you look quick and didn't notice the car cause they were out of your site then all of a sudden you go to merge into the next lane and you hear a horn... The stupid person was speeding and they came up on you so quick that you didnt even see them. Now if they had DRL you would have seen there car from further back.
#8
Since the conversation's gone that way, I'll offer my opinion.
I think DRL are safer. I've been in cars that had them, and figure out how to disable them if the car didn't have a switch. And especially that circumstance where you're cursing along, and someone makes a turn onto the road in front of you...Most drivers don't have the solid depth or speed perception they should considering the daily risks they have to take. If you have lights on the car even during the day, people second guess their instinct, and usually wait for you to pass far more frequently, instead of pulling out infront of you.
Another great reason for them is cars that are colored the same as the road. I'm talking about your silver and charcoal colors. You'd be surpised how invisible those cars are...it's not until you drive one that you realize people just can't see a car that's the same color as the road you're on. I know it sounds odd, but trust me, I'll never own a charcoal car ever again.
I think DRL are safer. I've been in cars that had them, and figure out how to disable them if the car didn't have a switch. And especially that circumstance where you're cursing along, and someone makes a turn onto the road in front of you...Most drivers don't have the solid depth or speed perception they should considering the daily risks they have to take. If you have lights on the car even during the day, people second guess their instinct, and usually wait for you to pass far more frequently, instead of pulling out infront of you.
Another great reason for them is cars that are colored the same as the road. I'm talking about your silver and charcoal colors. You'd be surpised how invisible those cars are...it's not until you drive one that you realize people just can't see a car that's the same color as the road you're on. I know it sounds odd, but trust me, I'll never own a charcoal car ever again.
#9
I always ride with my lights on in the daytime anyway, I'm not sure if it is something about the color Silver that ppl just don't see it as well in the day but I've already been hit once and had several near misses before when I wasn't using my lights in the daytime.
Now since I've been using my headlights in the daytime I haven't had any misses or near misses and I've learned this much after I was hit, the lady said that she just didn't see my car.
#10
Since the conversation's gone that way, I'll offer my opinion.
I think DRL are safer. I've been in cars that had them, and figure out how to disable them if the car didn't have a switch. And especially that circumstance where you're cursing along, and someone makes a turn onto the road in front of you...Most drivers don't have the solid depth or speed perception they should considering the daily risks they have to take. If you have lights on the car even during the day, people second guess their instinct, and usually wait for you to pass far more frequently, instead of pulling out infront of you.
Another great reason for them is cars that are colored the same as the road. I'm talking about your silver and charcoal colors. You'd be surpised how invisible those cars are...it's not until you drive one that you realize people just can't see a car that's the same color as the road you're on. I know it sounds odd, but trust me, I'll never own a charcoal car ever again.
I think DRL are safer. I've been in cars that had them, and figure out how to disable them if the car didn't have a switch. And especially that circumstance where you're cursing along, and someone makes a turn onto the road in front of you...Most drivers don't have the solid depth or speed perception they should considering the daily risks they have to take. If you have lights on the car even during the day, people second guess their instinct, and usually wait for you to pass far more frequently, instead of pulling out infront of you.
Another great reason for them is cars that are colored the same as the road. I'm talking about your silver and charcoal colors. You'd be surpised how invisible those cars are...it's not until you drive one that you realize people just can't see a car that's the same color as the road you're on. I know it sounds odd, but trust me, I'll never own a charcoal car ever again.
+1
That was perfectly said as well. Do you know if there is anyway to activate the DTRL on the Maximas?
#11
I love how after all that no one could answer your question, lol. Wish I could help you buddy but I don't know. If you do ever get the answer could you let me know, I think its a great idea.
#12
Ya ik. This turned into like a debate on weather DTRL's are needed or not instead of answering a ? on if it was possible, lol.
#13
I wish I could point you in the right direction on the wiring...but I can't. I just figured since the conversation slanted so quickly, I'd speak my peace.
#14
O its not a problem. An argument was brought about and people wanted to speak there mind. I even spoke my peace on that issue. Not a problem at all. But thank you for your input on weather DTRL are safer and better to have.
#15
As a noob, I thought I would do you all a favor by trying to find a solution to all of this. What I found was a video that actually shows the Max's DRL lights on. BUT, this is a canadian review so I'm guessing that only Canadian Maximas come with DRL's. Hope that helped.
Here's the link: http://www.auto123.com/en/multimedia/videos/830353
Here's the link: http://www.auto123.com/en/multimedia/videos/830353
Last edited by dauntlessmax; 05-08-2009 at 07:23 PM.
#16
hey this is off subject but I cant post a new thread. My 04 Max lights on the center dash under the screen and all the way down don't illuminate excluding the ac controls and also my tail , license plate lights , and also my conner lights does any one know what could be going on ?
#17
hey this is off subject but I cant post a new thread. My 04 Max lights on the center dash under the screen and all the way down don't illuminate excluding the ac controls and also my tail , license plate lights , and also my conner lights does any one know what could be going on ?
1) Try the "I'm new here and have a question" sticky, setup specifically for those who can't start their own thread yet.
2) Try some punctuation and proper grammar so fellow readers have a chance of understanding your question. We can't answer what's not understood.
3) Try posting in the appropriate section of the forum. This section is dedicated to '09 and later Maximas - I doubt you'll get much help for an '04 in this section.
#20
#21
If for any reason you want headlights on, just turn the damn things on yourself. Don't want/need that much light going? Use the parking lights. If you do this all of the time, it will become second-nature and you won't even think about it any more. Problem solved.
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
OT commentary on texting-based laziness - not all such shortcuts are universal
ik = ick = yucky
jw = John Wyer (a Porsche racing outfit)
Norm
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
OT commentary on texting-based laziness - not all such shortcuts are universal
ik = ick = yucky
jw = John Wyer (a Porsche racing outfit)
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 07-07-2009 at 06:24 AM.
#22
If for any reason you want headlights on, just turn the damn things on yourself. Don't want/need that much light going? Use the parking lights. If you do this all of the time, it will become second-nature and you won't even think about it any more. Problem solved.
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
OT commentary on texting-based laziness - not all such shortcuts are universal
ik = ick = yucky
jw = John Wyer (a Porsche racing outfit)
Norm
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
OT commentary on texting-based laziness - not all such shortcuts are universal
ik = ick = yucky
jw = John Wyer (a Porsche racing outfit)
Norm
#23
If for any reason you want headlights on, just turn the damn things on yourself. Don't want/need that much light going? Use the parking lights. If you do this all of the time, it will become second-nature and you won't even think about it any more. Problem solved.
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
Norm
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
Norm
- Lower electical usage. True DRLs typically use a lamp of lower wattage than a headlamp, and do not turn on the tail lights, parking lights, and side markers. This yields lower demand for power from the alternator and improved fuel milage vs. headlamps. (Savings is up to debate)
- Lamp life. DRLs use either a separate lower-powered bulb, or power the headlamp at a reduced intensity. This yields longer bulb life and less cost. Also, other exterior lamps are off lengthening their life span as well. Personally, I'd rather not replace the expensive Xenon HID bulbs any sooner than necessary.
- Automatic safety. DRLs turn on with the car. Yes, your argument is that this somehow leads to drivers that can't think for themselves, or take responsibility. But there are many "automatic" safety features built into cars; should they all be manually activated? Should you have to manually enable airbags, or laminated glass, or crumple zones, or seatbelt pretentioners, or ABS brakes?
- Automatic headlights. The 09 Maxima has an automatic headlight feature which senses dark conditions. If you want to use the automatic feature, using the parking lights as a DRL prevents this.
It seems to me that people asking for a DRL function are not having a safety function "spoon fed" (forced upon them). They are actively seeking out a tool which can reduce collisions every time the vehicle is driven.
#24
I can buy into the first two points, didn't know that the automatic headlight feature would be affected (though switching on the headlights is something you ought to be doing for yourself).
"Automatic safety" is exactly a case of spoon-feeding when it involves something that the driver could easily accomplish through free choice - and arguably should just to remain grounded to the idea of owning a little of the responsibility for his/her own safety. In this instance, I would readily go along with a user-selectable mid-brightness position on the same switch that gives you Automatic/Parking/Low (as the positions appear on my 20AE).
FWIW, my wife normally does run the headlights coming home through the neighborhoods from work, and I might too if I had to take the same route. But I would reserve the right to drive without lights lit during the daytime as I have been able to do for the past 45 years. That's the tool that I'd seek, voluntary rather than compulsory DRL's.
Chassis structural features are what they are, and are beyond driver control. You'd almost certainly give up some reliability in airbag or seatbelt pretensioning if they were somehow permitted to be "user option". That really puts those items into a separate category.
DRL's are much more like the infamous mid-1970's "seatbelt interlock" (that was repealed) or the little clutch pedal starter interlock on manual transmission cars (that can become a PITA when it breaks or if it's adjustment is a bit "off").
Norm
"Automatic safety" is exactly a case of spoon-feeding when it involves something that the driver could easily accomplish through free choice - and arguably should just to remain grounded to the idea of owning a little of the responsibility for his/her own safety. In this instance, I would readily go along with a user-selectable mid-brightness position on the same switch that gives you Automatic/Parking/Low (as the positions appear on my 20AE).
FWIW, my wife normally does run the headlights coming home through the neighborhoods from work, and I might too if I had to take the same route. But I would reserve the right to drive without lights lit during the daytime as I have been able to do for the past 45 years. That's the tool that I'd seek, voluntary rather than compulsory DRL's.
Chassis structural features are what they are, and are beyond driver control. You'd almost certainly give up some reliability in airbag or seatbelt pretensioning if they were somehow permitted to be "user option". That really puts those items into a separate category.
DRL's are much more like the infamous mid-1970's "seatbelt interlock" (that was repealed) or the little clutch pedal starter interlock on manual transmission cars (that can become a PITA when it breaks or if it's adjustment is a bit "off").
Norm
#25
Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ / Hoboken, NJ
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The biggest problem with DRLs IMO is that you get a lot of drivers who don't ever bother turning on their headlights, because they have DRLs. I can't count the number of times I've seen a newer Honda in a situation where they should have their lowbeams, parking lamps, and tail lamps on, but instead just have high beam DRLs. People drive with DRLs, then it gets dark, and their headlights are already on, so they ignore it.
As for saying "You shouldn't have to manually turn on a safety feature", that argument is completely invalid. When placed in an emergency situation, the driver may not have time to go turn airbags or ABS on. Generally, accidents happen quickly, because if they happened slow enough for a good reaction time from both drivers, they'd be avoided.
However, when you first turn the car on, before you pull out of your parking space, you have plenty of time to turn on the headlights, change the radio station, adjust the A/C, etc.
For me, the solution is simple. If it's a very overcast day, or foggy, or it's approaching dusk, I flick my parking lamps on.
As for saying "You shouldn't have to manually turn on a safety feature", that argument is completely invalid. When placed in an emergency situation, the driver may not have time to go turn airbags or ABS on. Generally, accidents happen quickly, because if they happened slow enough for a good reaction time from both drivers, they'd be avoided.
However, when you first turn the car on, before you pull out of your parking space, you have plenty of time to turn on the headlights, change the radio station, adjust the A/C, etc.
For me, the solution is simple. If it's a very overcast day, or foggy, or it's approaching dusk, I flick my parking lamps on.
#26
I can buy into the first two points, didn't know that the automatic headlight feature would be affected (though switching on the headlights is something you ought to be doing for yourself).
"Automatic safety" is exactly a case of spoon-feeding when it involves something that the driver could easily accomplish through free choice - and arguably should just to remain grounded to the idea of owning a little of the responsibility for his/her own safety. In this instance, I would readily go along with a user-selectable mid-brightness position on the same switch that gives you Automatic/Parking/Low (as the positions appear on my 20AE).
FWIW, my wife normally does run the headlights coming home through the neighborhoods from work, and I might too if I had to take the same route. But I would reserve the right to drive without lights lit during the daytime as I have been able to do for the past 45 years. That's the tool that I'd seek, voluntary rather than compulsory DRL's.
Chassis structural features are what they are, and are beyond driver control. You'd almost certainly give up some reliability in airbag or seatbelt pretensioning if they were somehow permitted to be "user option". That really puts those items into a separate category.
DRL's are much more like the infamous mid-1970's "seatbelt interlock" (that was repealed) or the little clutch pedal starter interlock on manual transmission cars (that can become a PITA when it breaks or if it's adjustment is a bit "off").
Norm
"Automatic safety" is exactly a case of spoon-feeding when it involves something that the driver could easily accomplish through free choice - and arguably should just to remain grounded to the idea of owning a little of the responsibility for his/her own safety. In this instance, I would readily go along with a user-selectable mid-brightness position on the same switch that gives you Automatic/Parking/Low (as the positions appear on my 20AE).
FWIW, my wife normally does run the headlights coming home through the neighborhoods from work, and I might too if I had to take the same route. But I would reserve the right to drive without lights lit during the daytime as I have been able to do for the past 45 years. That's the tool that I'd seek, voluntary rather than compulsory DRL's.
Chassis structural features are what they are, and are beyond driver control. You'd almost certainly give up some reliability in airbag or seatbelt pretensioning if they were somehow permitted to be "user option". That really puts those items into a separate category.
DRL's are much more like the infamous mid-1970's "seatbelt interlock" (that was repealed) or the little clutch pedal starter interlock on manual transmission cars (that can become a PITA when it breaks or if it's adjustment is a bit "off").
Norm
I looked some stuff up in the service manual and they have a DRL relay, I'll check in a little while and see if it is on my car. If its already there then there should be a pretty simple way to switch them on, if not it may require a few parts but nothing expense.
#27
If for any reason you want headlights on, just turn the damn things on yourself. Don't want/need that much light going? Use the parking lights. If you do this all of the time, it will become second-nature and you won't even think about it any more. Problem solved.
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
OT commentary on texting-based laziness - not all such shortcuts are universal
ik = ick = yucky
jw = John Wyer (a Porsche racing outfit)
Norm
There is no need to have all of your safety precautions spoon-fed to you (forced upon you?) from an outside source. That's the mindset of people who don't care to think for themselves and/or refuse to accept the notion that they bear some responsibility for the safety issues at hand.
FWIW, DRL's make you more visible, but may make it harder for others to judge your speed. That's less than a "win-win" situation.
OT commentary on texting-based laziness - not all such shortcuts are universal
ik = ick = yucky
jw = John Wyer (a Porsche racing outfit)
Norm
#28
Wow, you just love to argue and be a downer. It seems you never had a car with DRLs before, they are always on, its not a on/off thing so that's one less aspect you get to have complete power over, but its for safety. DRLs also will give you a slightly lower insurance rate, because they are safer and people like you wont turn them off and on as they fit, only when they want to be safe.
I looked some stuff up in the service manual and they have a DRL relay, I'll check in a little while and see if it is on my car. If its already there then there should be a pretty simple way to switch them on, if not it may require a few parts but nothing expense.
I looked some stuff up in the service manual and they have a DRL relay, I'll check in a little while and see if it is on my car. If its already there then there should be a pretty simple way to switch them on, if not it may require a few parts but nothing expense.
#29
VTenge and Mreim769
It's not a downer to wish to maintain control over those details of my life that I am reasonably competent at dealing with. After all, I'm just offering counterpoint here. Not forcing anybody to run lights-out if they do not wish to do so. Like I said before - make DRL's voluntary with an active choice (like a switch).
Philosophically, I am not at all ready to let others dictate all the little things in my life that I am entirely capable of doing for myself, whether it be an automotive topic or anything else (and I can think of one outstanding non-automotive example from just this past weekend that would likely give all the "please-make-the-safety-compulsory-because-no-user-can-be-presumed-bright-enough-to-act-in-a-safe-or-responsible-manner-all-by-himself" folks heart attacks.
I guess that makes me a Libertarian of sorts. Or just an independent old cuss who grew up in an era where these intrusions had not even been dreamed up. Let me decide for myself. And yes, I'd argue quite strongly against some of the other automotive safety "developments" that are gradually being forced down our throats.
Norm
It's not a downer to wish to maintain control over those details of my life that I am reasonably competent at dealing with. After all, I'm just offering counterpoint here. Not forcing anybody to run lights-out if they do not wish to do so. Like I said before - make DRL's voluntary with an active choice (like a switch).
Philosophically, I am not at all ready to let others dictate all the little things in my life that I am entirely capable of doing for myself, whether it be an automotive topic or anything else (and I can think of one outstanding non-automotive example from just this past weekend that would likely give all the "please-make-the-safety-compulsory-because-no-user-can-be-presumed-bright-enough-to-act-in-a-safe-or-responsible-manner-all-by-himself" folks heart attacks.
I guess that makes me a Libertarian of sorts. Or just an independent old cuss who grew up in an era where these intrusions had not even been dreamed up. Let me decide for myself. And yes, I'd argue quite strongly against some of the other automotive safety "developments" that are gradually being forced down our throats.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 07-07-2009 at 10:04 AM.
#31
I don't see why....
I dont see why the dealership couldn't do this for you. I Live in Las Vegas, where there are 3 dealerships to choose from, and I have only done business with one (Desert Nissan)
Every Vehicle I have purchased from them had DRL enabled (except for my 09 Max) In fact in my 06 Murano, I had to find where the DRL were connected so I could go to a Drive In movie (yes, we still have one here) and be able to turn my lights off.
I would guess that the higher end Max's with the sport or premium pkgs dont have DRLs because of the HID Headlamps, but thats just a guess, Ask your dealer, they should be able to get them going for you one way or the other...
And FWIW, I think DRLs should be on some sort of switch too, nothing like wanting to park in a dark area with the engine running, and not being able to shut your headlamps off... "S***, here come the cops, put your pants back on, they must have seen my DRL's" LOL
Every Vehicle I have purchased from them had DRL enabled (except for my 09 Max) In fact in my 06 Murano, I had to find where the DRL were connected so I could go to a Drive In movie (yes, we still have one here) and be able to turn my lights off.
I would guess that the higher end Max's with the sport or premium pkgs dont have DRLs because of the HID Headlamps, but thats just a guess, Ask your dealer, they should be able to get them going for you one way or the other...
And FWIW, I think DRLs should be on some sort of switch too, nothing like wanting to park in a dark area with the engine running, and not being able to shut your headlamps off... "S***, here come the cops, put your pants back on, they must have seen my DRL's" LOL
#32
I dont see why the dealership couldn't do this for you. I Live in Las Vegas, where there are 3 dealerships to choose from, and I have only done business with one (Desert Nissan)
Every Vehicle I have purchased from them had DRL enabled (except for my 09 Max) In fact in my 06 Murano, I had to find where the DRL were connected so I could go to a Drive In movie (yes, we still have one here) and be able to turn my lights off.
I would guess that the higher end Max's with the sport or premium pkgs dont have DRLs because of the HID Headlamps, but thats just a guess, Ask your dealer, they should be able to get them going for you one way or the other...
And FWIW, I think DRLs should be on some sort of switch too, nothing like wanting to park in a dark area with the engine running, and not being able to shut your headlamps off... "S***, here come the cops, put your pants back on, they must have seen my DRL's" LOL
Every Vehicle I have purchased from them had DRL enabled (except for my 09 Max) In fact in my 06 Murano, I had to find where the DRL were connected so I could go to a Drive In movie (yes, we still have one here) and be able to turn my lights off.
I would guess that the higher end Max's with the sport or premium pkgs dont have DRLs because of the HID Headlamps, but thats just a guess, Ask your dealer, they should be able to get them going for you one way or the other...
And FWIW, I think DRLs should be on some sort of switch too, nothing like wanting to park in a dark area with the engine running, and not being able to shut your headlamps off... "S***, here come the cops, put your pants back on, they must have seen my DRL's" LOL
#33
Strange...
I'm not entirely sure about the High beam thing... My 04 Altima & My 06 Murano both had DRLs from the dealer, and both utlilized the low beams (I remember this because when you turned the lights on, the intensity of the headlamps didn't change) I am sure there is a way to do it... wish I still had my old Mo so I could take pictures of how it was set up and post em here... Wait - I don't wish I had my old Mo - I LOVE MY NEW MAX!!!
#35
I live in Canada and have DRLs. I wanted to swap my DRL/high beam bulbs and match them with my HID D2S headlights and PIAA xtreme white plus foglights. The size of the bulb is 9005. I've seen PIAA xtreme white 9005 65w bulbs. Does anyone know if i'd need a wiring harness or kit to do this? or could i just swap out bulb for bulb.
#38
'oj' has two connotations I am aware of - O J Simpson and Orange Juice. I don't see any connection between O J Simpson and our Maxima, other than the fact both can run like a bat out of h.e.l.l. (at least OJ could while in his prime), so maybe nycxchunk is referring to the orange juice colored turn signal lenses, which break up his strictly black motif?
#39
I went straight to the same two connotations.
Makes a little more sense now that I can see the pic of his ride. Work just adopted a pickier filtering system, so there's even more stuff that I won't be able to see early in the day. Some entire automotive forums too.
Norm
Makes a little more sense now that I can see the pic of his ride. Work just adopted a pickier filtering system, so there's even more stuff that I won't be able to see early in the day. Some entire automotive forums too.
Norm