So since no one wants to make them for us. How would we go about making them our selves? What kind of tubing and where are the best places to mount them?

All info goes in this thread.

 

The issue I see with these is that shipping will absolutely suck, the metal is probably not horrible and neither is the welding. I might have some metal-related resources if we all agree on a design, but man, shipping it anywhere is gonna be nasty on $$$. Even if it's shipped in pieces it's not gonna be pretty.

 

Shipping is not bad with big parts, UPS takes packages upto 130 inches long.

As long as they are not too heavy, it will cost around 30-40 bucks to ship.

 

I should be going to a reknown chassis and roll cage shop near me in a few weeks, he hasn't looked at my car yet, but he has done other custom sfc's for people in the past but never a maxima to date, says it would be about $300 for parts and labor if he had to guess, I will let you guys know how it turns out and take some pics...

 

If they're truly "custom", as the title implies, why would any shipping be involved? It's just a question of finding a reputable shop that has lots of experience doing custom SFCs for other cars. I know people with F-bodies frequently add SFCs so there should be plenty of shops with the expertise.

If I weren't in dire financial straits I would have SFCs by now...one of these days I plan to find a good shop (probably in Chicago) and just plop down the $300 or whatever it takes to get these made and installed.

There are a lot of threads on other subforums that talk about SFCs, do you think we should link to them from this thread or not?

 

I live in an area where I don;t have access to these shops. If I could make them I could get them welded in and that's about it.

 

I am in the process of getting custom SFCS fabricated right now and have done LOTS of research on the idea. Trust me when I say 300$ is a deal. I will prob end up paying 400 or more for my set and I got quotes as high as 800-1200$ so this is deff one of those things that can get expensive fast especially if you want to use Chromoly tubing, have it tempered and tig welded. I am prob going with 1.5" x .120" DOM tubing for the stage 1 and 3/4" x .90" or .120" DOM tubing for the cross bracing have everything mig welded together, and it really shouldent take more than a couple days.

I m waiting for this fabricator I'm working with to finish up on a current project and I have been calling him once a week for the last month or so, and he says he should be done this project before the end of june so I should be able to get my SFCS done before the end of June but if you know fabricators you know they never stick to a real schedule. So who knows. I've probably talked to 20 fabricators over the past 3 months.

 

I think if we can just get an idea of what the best and most useful places to brace would be that we can get an idea for a template and then a shop should be able to fabricate one to our needs.

If anyone could even fabricate the pieces themselves and include mounting holes or brackets I would be very excited. Then, installation could be as simple as drilling or using existing areas to mount the SFC.

 

Well mounting points are pretty easy to determine

The SFCs on a 5th gen can be welded to the car in 4 or 5 places.

You weld them to the Chassis in the back right next to the jacking point where the "hoop" is. Than the stage 1 runs as close to the underside of the car as possible, and connects to the subframe rails in 3 spots. The 5th gens already have some stamped cross braces that run between the subframe frails one thick one in the middle and one in the back that is very thin. The rear tie in point of the SFCs into the subframe rail is right around he same area where that thin stamped cross bracing is located. The middle location where the SFC ties into the subframe rails is right where that large stamped cross brace used to be, where the SFCs tie into the subframe rails up front is a little hard to decribe, you'de have to look at pics to tell for yourself. Then if you wanted to add another area to tie the SFCs into, up front behind the front wheels around the front jacking points you could tie the SFCs into the chassis at that location as well.

Of course the cross bracing stage 2 ties into the 3 tabs on either subframe rail. On the 5th gens there is clearence to run lateral bracing across the back and middle position on the frame rails but not as much in the front position of the subframe rail.

Sorry this is hard to describe and I'm drunk.. I think I would need to provide pics to show what I'm talking about. I drew up a diagram on the design of the SFCs I'm getting built. That should give you an idea of where the SFCs tie in.

 

I'd like to add several things.

First, DOM tubing it is is a must IMO. Moly is all hyped for very little reason. Yes it is a bit lighter and stronger but a bear to work with. Many sanctioning bodies are allowing cages to be made of standard steel as long as it is DOM. 1 5/8 .12 tubing. The welding required on moly needs to be seriously good to get good penetration.

Now I'm wondering how you plan to fit that 1 1/2" tubing next to the framrails and mounting is securely. In some places it dips to less than an inch; no?

Second. The mounting points that Warpspeed used have always kinda perplexed me. I know the max at least the 4th and 5th gens have no rear subframe so I can't speak to that. But the front subframe is a monster. Its important to get the strengthening as close as possible to the front subframe (if not actually welded to it) otherwise all the strengthening is going to be negated by that unstrengthened sheet metal area. Most or all of the flexing that was prohibited more rearward in the chassis is going to occur in the distance between the end of the strengthening and the front subframe mounts.

Sciff, just to clarify, there are no subframe rails on these chassis'. The subframe is the black thick steel piece that bolts to the unibody. The rails you are referring to are just the frame rails or uni-body rails. Not trying to be offensive, just clearing confussion.

Now, another issue is that the effectiveness of the stiffeners is diminished when they are attached to the flimsy frame rails. Nissan chassis' are horribly supple. But I can't imagine any of you are going to seam weld your daily drivers so I don't know how to solve that problem.

Also, could someone remind me how the subframes are mounted to the chassis. If they are with big rubber bushings I think thats where someone should look to improve before the SFC's are attacked. I.E. Solid aluminum bushings. I just got done doing that on my S13 and I love it.


All that said, since there is such an interest and I have a spare chassis and a possible willing prototype(VQuick)I might consider making a few of these. Let me know how much of interest there is and I'll start rootin' around under my chassis. To see the quality and type of work I encourage you to have a look at my 240 homepage.

 

Well in regards to stiffening up the front subframe which I think would be the biggest improvement in terms of handling feel and initial turn in. I am playing with the idea of getting a LTB and then later tying the LTB into the SFCs. But, the front subframe is bolted to the chassis and has rubber bushings so there is some play in the front subframe, so before I tie them together with tubing, I think its a must that you get the aluminum bushings that BlackbirdVq and Larrio are producing, so you greatly reduce the movement of the front subframe in relation to the chassis, or else I think if you tied the font subfame and the chassis together you'de be putting a lot of stress on that relativly small tubing (I am guessing its goin to be relativly small tubing because theres not much clearence in that area.) I think this will end up being the biggest improvement in handling feel, but I think in terms of actual chassis ridgidity the max is weakest in the middle because its a relativly long car I think most of the flex comes from the area of the car between the front and rear wheels, which is where the SFCs are located.

BTW I mocked up the 1.5" tubing and it fits fine. It is a little oversized but thats alright with me, I also might go for the 1.25" tubing instead. The good news is I just got off the phone with my fabricator and he said he should be able to start my car next week. I cant get too excited cause we all know how fabricators are with schedules but I would be VERY happy if by next friday my car is all done.

 

The reason I mentioned a possible bolt-on setup is to make them A.) a DIY and B.) for them to be an easier decision. I already drag my resonator (stock, it's days are numbered) all over the place, I don't want to be scraping custom made pieces all over the ground if I actually have to drive the car in the city (very poorly designed transitions between roads and p.lots).

 

Those are the best pics I have of the setup.

 

Stiffening the subframe? You think thats really required. Its at least 1/8th stamped steel welded all the way around and thus doubled up. Especially when it gains support from the chassis I can't see the front subframe flexing much at all. I'm not sure but I'd wager that its over 60lbs of steel. Definetly would take a lot of force to fix it. Need spherical rod end FLCA's and tie rods to put that kind of force to it.

Kevlo, is that the Warpspeed setup or something you fabbed up?

 

I believe that is the Warpspeed setup on a 5th gen

 

am I missing something? Did warpspeed stop making their SFCs?

 

Yupp call them up. I even told them I would come there and get um and they said call next month..

I got same response the last 6 months...

 

ahh, so ever since they decided to make a new and improved design, they just pretty much stopped all together?

 

Well they keep telling me the "moving to the new shop/building of new shop" is delaying it.

 

1. Warpspeed will never be reliable making the SFC's if they ever make them again. Don't bother waiting.
2. I've heard similar comments about moly tubing - hard to work with, hard to get a good, strong weld penetration. I've heard this not only in the custom mountain bike world, but also it was discussed in one of this year's Grassroots Motorsports magazine, where it was suggested NOT to use moly.
3. Larrio Motors is working on something for the front subframe (not a LTB).....keeping it on the down-low for now until me and others test it out, but I think it's something you will like. He's also working on another product that applies to this thread (not a SFC), but again, it's a secret for now. I'm just getting your curiosity up Stay tuned.....

Let me just suggest you not try to tie in the front subframe with the rear for the time being

 

nice SFC setup, but he needs to buy some undercoating spray!!

the SFC is nice, but I like the snail better

 

irish i already said what was being developed by larrio and blackbird in my last post. I am deff gonna get them. i am excited enough about them that if they take too long to be fabricated and distributed by larrio or blackbird i might have a local guy make a set for me

 

Yeah, for those who haven't heard Warpspeed will keep telling you they'll be ready in a few weeks, no matter if you call once or call every week for 2 years....

Sciff, I know you've been working hard on getting custom SFCs, so I wish you the best of luck in getting this shop to do it next week!

Here's a photo of a 4th gen with Warpspeed SFCs. The red bar at the rear is a RSB, not part of the SFCs.

 

I don't know if they're both making the same thing. I think Mike is making solid aluminum bushings, and Larrio is doing something a bit different.

Also, you don't know about the second thing....

 

ohsnap®

Yeah, from your description it's a lot more than simply bushings...a LOT more.

 

Hey if theres more that I dont know about GREAT. Especially if it has to do with stiffening the front subframe and tying it into the chassis. I think this car's biggest down fall is there is (to me) zero feel in the front end and relativly poor initial turn in.

Since I now have the springs/shocks I dont think there is much more I am going to be able to do in terms of increasing the absolute limit other than playing with the camber and running stickier tires. So now I am focusing primarily on the handling feel of the car and if the absolute limit is increased either because the cars capabilities increase or the car becomes more solid at the limit making it easier to drive closer to the limit than its an added bonus

 

Those are what the not in production 2nd gen WSP SFCs look like on my car.

When I got them installed the car was more solid, but IMO chassis foaming seemed to do more than the SFCs did. Im quite happy with the turn in and lane change of this car. Aside from some bounciness from the suspension it rides and idles close to stock even with PR motor mounts and side mounts filled with poly.

 

Well then Joe, take pics of yours since you are the only one I know of that has the "updated" SFC's

 

I don't have a lift to get those nice under carriage shots...

But those SFCs are identical to the ones on my car. Just imagine them on the bottom of a 4th gen and thats how they look.

 

Interesting that you think chassis foaming made a more significant difference. I plan to do both so that's good. But my understanding was that the stage 1 SFCs were far and away the single biggest improvement.

The cross-bracing on the updated WSP SFCs looks wimpier than on the original ones.

 

Well I've only foamed all the hollow areas from the front of the car up to the front passenger seats. I would recomend it to those who want sharper turn in and better steering feel, as a added bonus it rides better and has less road noise. The only downside to the partial foaming is that it has made more understeer than I care for. The rear suspension and chassis have not been touched, so it should balance out more when I get to foaming and rebuilding it.

The hardest part of the foaming is getting drill holes into the front rails, I removed EVERYTHING from the engine bay so I had more than enough room. It was part of a total rebuild this winter/spring, I didn't get it the rear and mid sections done cause I had to make it to Maxus.

 

Yeah I gotta be honest. The square tubing dallas used for the cross bracing of stage 2 is kinda a joke.. Thats the real reason why people havent been getting any benefit from the stage 2.

And I noticed on Joe's setup that dallas hadent bothered to cap the end of the stage 1 tubing. Meening anytime you go through a puddle or go through the snow your gonna get water in the open ended tube of that stage 1 bracing. If the other end isnt capped before it was welded to the chassis that moisture can reach the unprotected chassis via the tube of the SFC and start rusting it out from the inside out. Not to mention rusting the SFCs from the inside out as well.

Very, VERY poor workmanship on dallas' part.

 

Between the front and rear wheels don't the rails have holes in them already? I didn't think that drilling was necessary. What type of foam and applicator did you use, and where did you get it?

 

Aluminum bushings are definitely a huge requirement for serious handling. The effectiveness of solid bushing whether they be spherical or solid lies in the fact that they force the movement of the wheel to be controlled in the correct axis' rather than in bushing deflection. In some cases I think they can actually increase the "sticktion" of the car but I think it has more to do with the fact that it allows the limit to be approached with much more predictability. For me having the intense feel of the road is a positive but by no means is my S a daily anymore. Call it "vaultish" to steel a term from Dave. The huge downside though that you feel so much more vibration from the road, motor and tranny. I would definitely not recomend them if you're intending to keep your max as a daily. And since Maxima's as race cars don't really seem to sit too well with most I wouldn't recomend them at all.

How many mounting locations do the A chassis subframes have. The S chassis rear subframe has four mounts which have horribly large cushy bushing stock. IIRC the A32 bushings are much smaller in diameter. Perhaps someone could look into having a poly bushing produced in the correct dimensions for the A's.


That said, if the step toward stopping the subframe from shifting around is made I think someone needs to take the step toward getting Spherical FLCA's made by a reputable company. Perhaps SPLParts.com. Every part they sell for the rear suspension of S13's is on my car. Spring '07 the front will be the same.

 

Yeah, that's why I have ES poly subframe bushings...stiffer and less deflection but a heck of a lot more forgiving than aluminum.

Broan, the rear suspension looks SICK in that photo!

 

Yes those rails have some holes in them and you can pour the foam mixture in it. However I said the front of the car, meaning those two beams in the engine bay. It's where the side and tranny mount bolt up to, those two were filled with foam.

http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

That is where I got the foam, it's the 4 pound density stuff. I just used a plastic bucket to mix and a small plastic funnel to pour it in. Make sure to tape up every hole and put a bolt in every thread of the effected area. That foam finds EVERY hole no matter how small, trust me.

 

how much of it did you buy? you have only done the front thus far correct? did you only buy enough for the front?

 

I'm pretty sure I would use the 8lb weight stuff. This looks pretty similar to the stuff that was linked from another SFC thread a while ago, but it's not the same company. It was the stuff recommened by either that Sport Compact Car article or recommended by Infiniti body shops as the stuff they use to refoam Q45 chassis, can't recall which.

 

Sport compact car article foamed a 300zx with 2lb stuff. And the stuff they use in the Q45 is 2lb stuff but I would also go with 8lb if I wanted to reinforce something

 

I'm going to start a new thread on chassis foaming; let's keep this thread on the topic of SFCs.

Chassis Foaming Thread: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?p=5042504