Modding for the Road course
10-28-2011, 02:27 PM
#1
Modding for the Road course
Chapter UN: The Understeer Saga
So... I buy some of those sweet new ES Bushings for my front sway bar, install them and begin to terrorize the back roads of Sugar Land, TX... I mean my private road course....
Initial feel is AMAZING, talk about instant snap your neck movie-esque lane changing steering response, I was thinking, I am so ready to destroy MSRH.
So moving onto the higher speed corners, I started to feel my front tires loosing grip WAY too easily on the turn in, also my HLSD actually hindering my cornering (The car wants to exit toward the outside instead of pushing in to the turn).
But I adjusted my habits and tried to garner the aid of my coilovers to help me turn in, same thing, car just DIVES to the outside with the tires slipping.
Adjust the coilovers, do all of the basic things to try and understand why the front end is so gosh darn stiff!
So, I quickly run through my head what are some dumb, cheap/free things I can do to get rid of this understeer....
Disconnect the front sway bar!!
So now I have sloppy handling....
Adjust coilovers!
Car feels awesommeeeeeeee
I now feel like I have a much much better control of the car going into corners, it's much more forgiving on the tires allowing me to take the same high speed corners but with virtually no tire squeal and best overall, I'm not diving towards the outside into a ditch, and when I get on the throttle mid turn the car keeps accelerating towards the inside and not diving towards the outside any more.
So if you didn't want to read my rambling basically I have gross understeer when my sway bar is connected, why is this?
And before you say my car is too low, I raise it back up when I goto the track, the control arms sit about 5* below parallel to the pavement.
Suspension mods are as follows:
-BC Racing Type BR Coilovers (Factory springs on the front and rear)
-ES Subframe Bushings
-ES Lower Control Arm Bushings
-ES Sway Bar Bracket Bushings
Wheel Setup:
Michellin MXV4
That was all that was done to the car during these trials.
And when I went on MSRH my findings were also true there, the car turns in so effortlessly now and it accelerates towards the inside of corners (oversteer if you would say), making life very easy.
Chapter DEUX: Wheel Spacers
I Do NOT like how high the offset of my racing wheels are (the only drawback to them). I was told as long as it's a good quality brand that I can run spacers for racing, is this true?? I want to do at least 10mm for the fronts only.
Why? Moar track
Moar track = better grip = better turn in.... riiiiiiight?
So... I buy some of those sweet new ES Bushings for my front sway bar, install them and begin to terrorize the back roads of Sugar Land, TX... I mean my private road course....
Initial feel is AMAZING, talk about instant snap your neck movie-esque lane changing steering response, I was thinking, I am so ready to destroy MSRH.
So moving onto the higher speed corners, I started to feel my front tires loosing grip WAY too easily on the turn in, also my HLSD actually hindering my cornering (The car wants to exit toward the outside instead of pushing in to the turn).
But I adjusted my habits and tried to garner the aid of my coilovers to help me turn in, same thing, car just DIVES to the outside with the tires slipping.
Adjust the coilovers, do all of the basic things to try and understand why the front end is so gosh darn stiff!
So, I quickly run through my head what are some dumb, cheap/free things I can do to get rid of this understeer....
Disconnect the front sway bar!!
So now I have sloppy handling....
Adjust coilovers!
Car feels awesommeeeeeeee
I now feel like I have a much much better control of the car going into corners, it's much more forgiving on the tires allowing me to take the same high speed corners but with virtually no tire squeal and best overall, I'm not diving towards the outside into a ditch, and when I get on the throttle mid turn the car keeps accelerating towards the inside and not diving towards the outside any more.
So if you didn't want to read my rambling basically I have gross understeer when my sway bar is connected, why is this?
And before you say my car is too low, I raise it back up when I goto the track, the control arms sit about 5* below parallel to the pavement.
Suspension mods are as follows:
-BC Racing Type BR Coilovers (Factory springs on the front and rear)
-ES Subframe Bushings
-ES Lower Control Arm Bushings
-ES Sway Bar Bracket Bushings
Wheel Setup:
Michellin MXV4
That was all that was done to the car during these trials.
And when I went on MSRH my findings were also true there, the car turns in so effortlessly now and it accelerates towards the inside of corners (oversteer if you would say), making life very easy.
Chapter DEUX: Wheel Spacers
I Do NOT like how high the offset of my racing wheels are (the only drawback to them). I was told as long as it's a good quality brand that I can run spacers for racing, is this true?? I want to do at least 10mm for the fronts only.
Why? Moar track
Moar track = better grip = better turn in.... riiiiiiight?
Last edited by aackshun; 10-28-2011 at 02:49 PM.
10-28-2011, 02:48 PM
#2
Wider track also increases scrub radius, which hurts handling. BUT.. that's assuming you started with the proper offset and went wider from there. If you're narrower than stock and are using the spacers to put the wheels back where they should be, then it's not as big of a deal.
As for the spacers, the spacer is fine (use a good quality hubcentric spacer of course), but the wheel studs are the most important part. If you have crap wheel studs, then you're eventually going to break one.. or five..
ARP, H&R, or NISMO only. Ichiba= ick. Their spacers aren't bad, but the wheel studs are garbage.
ARP studs from an EVO or WRX or something will fit and cost about the same as the NISMO studs. just measure the knurl diameter of the stock studs, then look in ARP's catalog for the same knurl diameter. voila. worked perfect on my S14.
Handling... you have a mess. where's your rear sway bar? If you don't have one, go get you one. That's one of the reasons your understeer is so bad.
The HLSD will make life hell too with a lot of body lean. they work great when both tires are on the ground, but as soon as you take the weight off, the inside tire spins like you have an open diff.
Removing the sway bar and softening the rebound of the front shocks (stiffen compression if you can) is a band-aid that will help handling, but you'd be amazed what adding a rear sway will do to the car. But if you make the back end too stiff, you'll wind up just having worse problems.
But to help kill your understeer, you definitely need to do soemthign in the rear. also cranking the tire pressures up in the back will help. I used to run mine about 45psi cold to help the car rotate.
HTH.
As for the spacers, the spacer is fine (use a good quality hubcentric spacer of course), but the wheel studs are the most important part. If you have crap wheel studs, then you're eventually going to break one.. or five..
ARP, H&R, or NISMO only. Ichiba= ick. Their spacers aren't bad, but the wheel studs are garbage.
ARP studs from an EVO or WRX or something will fit and cost about the same as the NISMO studs. just measure the knurl diameter of the stock studs, then look in ARP's catalog for the same knurl diameter. voila. worked perfect on my S14.
Handling... you have a mess. where's your rear sway bar? If you don't have one, go get you one. That's one of the reasons your understeer is so bad.
The HLSD will make life hell too with a lot of body lean. they work great when both tires are on the ground, but as soon as you take the weight off, the inside tire spins like you have an open diff.
Removing the sway bar and softening the rebound of the front shocks (stiffen compression if you can) is a band-aid that will help handling, but you'd be amazed what adding a rear sway will do to the car. But if you make the back end too stiff, you'll wind up just having worse problems.
But to help kill your understeer, you definitely need to do soemthign in the rear. also cranking the tire pressures up in the back will help. I used to run mine about 45psi cold to help the car rotate.
HTH.
10-28-2011, 04:12 PM
#3
10-28-2011, 04:46 PM
#5
Wider track also increases scrub radius, which hurts handling. BUT.. that's assuming you started with the proper offset and went wider from there. If you're narrower than stock and are using the spacers to put the wheels back where they should be, then it's not as big of a deal.
-My velox rims are closer to stock than my G35s are, I have less experience with them cornering than the G35s but so far I do not like how the car takes it's turn ins, it's less stable (W/ or W/O Front Stab bar), yet more responsive (less weight).
OAN The Accord's handling dramatically increased with my G35s on it because I thought it was due to the increased track, but I guess there's something else I am not taking into the equation if you say this can only negatively affect handling (The accord had bald hankooks 725s on the g35 rims, and handled better than the stock Dunflops which had a good amount more of tread and offer quite a bit of dry grip).
So I'm not taking something into account, but I like how the G35s feel when I turn the steering wheel compared to my lighter, narrower rims.
As for the spacers, the spacer is fine (use a good quality hubcentric spacer of course), but the wheel studs are the most important part. If you have crap wheel studs, then you're eventually going to break one.. or five..
ARP, H&R, or NISMO only. Ichiba= ick. Their spacers aren't bad, but the wheel studs are garbage.
ARP studs from an EVO or WRX or something will fit and cost about the same as the NISMO studs. just measure the knurl diameter of the stock studs, then look in ARP's catalog for the same knurl diameter. voila. worked perfect on my S14.
-Wrd
Handling... you have a mess. where's your rear sway bar? If you don't have one, go get you one. That's one of the reasons your understeer is so bad.
The HLSD will make life hell too with a lot of body lean. they work great when both tires are on the ground, but as soon as you take the weight off, the inside tire spins like you have an open diff.
-I didn't even get to apply throttle, it was literally as soon as I put the inertia on the front half of the car and turn in all it did was plant it's nose towards the outside and not turn.
I took a different approach and tries to keep the inertia of the car neutral on the entrance of the corner and it went better but still wanted to plow the outside of the corner
Then I took a third approach w/ left foot braking trying to keep the inertia in the back half and it lifted the tire up and caused the typical 1 wheel peel then face plants towards the outside (and yes stiffening up the struts while doing this worsens the problem).
As soon as I removed the sway bar, and stiffened up the struts I was able to attack the corner any way I wanted to with success, it likes the left foot approach the best right now.
Removing the sway bar and softening the rebound of the front shocks (stiffen compression if you can) is a band-aid that will help handling, but you'd be amazed what adding a rear sway will do to the car. But if you make the back end too stiff, you'll wind up just having worse problems.
-I can not attack the back portion of MSR w/o a front stab and with my coils at any softer than 15 clicks, too much body roll and I can barely stay in my seat.
-I want a rear sway bar, just not on my priority list right now, and I thought it could cause the suspension to bind on occasion?? I really want a panhard bar, that's why I'm not jumping @ the gun to get one like I was last year when I was doing Gymkhana monthly.
But to help kill your understeer, you definitely need to do soemthign in the rear. also cranking the tire pressures up in the back will help. I used to run mine about 45psi cold to help the car rotate.
-My Rear track wheels are always kept at 45 minimum.
HTH.
-My velox rims are closer to stock than my G35s are, I have less experience with them cornering than the G35s but so far I do not like how the car takes it's turn ins, it's less stable (W/ or W/O Front Stab bar), yet more responsive (less weight).
OAN The Accord's handling dramatically increased with my G35s on it because I thought it was due to the increased track, but I guess there's something else I am not taking into the equation if you say this can only negatively affect handling (The accord had bald hankooks 725s on the g35 rims, and handled better than the stock Dunflops which had a good amount more of tread and offer quite a bit of dry grip).
So I'm not taking something into account, but I like how the G35s feel when I turn the steering wheel compared to my lighter, narrower rims.
As for the spacers, the spacer is fine (use a good quality hubcentric spacer of course), but the wheel studs are the most important part. If you have crap wheel studs, then you're eventually going to break one.. or five..
ARP, H&R, or NISMO only. Ichiba= ick. Their spacers aren't bad, but the wheel studs are garbage.
ARP studs from an EVO or WRX or something will fit and cost about the same as the NISMO studs. just measure the knurl diameter of the stock studs, then look in ARP's catalog for the same knurl diameter. voila. worked perfect on my S14.
-Wrd
Handling... you have a mess. where's your rear sway bar? If you don't have one, go get you one. That's one of the reasons your understeer is so bad.
The HLSD will make life hell too with a lot of body lean. they work great when both tires are on the ground, but as soon as you take the weight off, the inside tire spins like you have an open diff.
-I didn't even get to apply throttle, it was literally as soon as I put the inertia on the front half of the car and turn in all it did was plant it's nose towards the outside and not turn.
I took a different approach and tries to keep the inertia of the car neutral on the entrance of the corner and it went better but still wanted to plow the outside of the corner
Then I took a third approach w/ left foot braking trying to keep the inertia in the back half and it lifted the tire up and caused the typical 1 wheel peel then face plants towards the outside (and yes stiffening up the struts while doing this worsens the problem).
As soon as I removed the sway bar, and stiffened up the struts I was able to attack the corner any way I wanted to with success, it likes the left foot approach the best right now.
Removing the sway bar and softening the rebound of the front shocks (stiffen compression if you can) is a band-aid that will help handling, but you'd be amazed what adding a rear sway will do to the car. But if you make the back end too stiff, you'll wind up just having worse problems.
-I can not attack the back portion of MSR w/o a front stab and with my coils at any softer than 15 clicks, too much body roll and I can barely stay in my seat.
-I want a rear sway bar, just not on my priority list right now, and I thought it could cause the suspension to bind on occasion?? I really want a panhard bar, that's why I'm not jumping @ the gun to get one like I was last year when I was doing Gymkhana monthly.
But to help kill your understeer, you definitely need to do soemthign in the rear. also cranking the tire pressures up in the back will help. I used to run mine about 45psi cold to help the car rotate.
-My Rear track wheels are always kept at 45 minimum.
HTH.
My reasoning behind the spacers in the front was to get the rims closer to the G35 offset to help increase traction under cornering because the wheels are further away from the COG so the car's weight would actually push more on the tire than over it.
But from the sound of things, I'm doing it wrong....
Yes dammit, I do use forza, it's safer and cheaper than going out on the stre.... my private road course.
I'm going to BR this weekend to hit up the new road course over there $25 for track time, baton rouge halloween weekend, can't pass that up.
Last edited by aackshun; 10-28-2011 at 04:53 PM.
10-28-2011, 07:46 PM
#6
Increasing track width TOO FAR can cause issues. Keep in mind if your overall offset is close to stock (I'll say within 15mm), then I wouldn't worry about it. The problem I see too often is 240 guys that have a 16x6.5" + 45mm stock wheel, then they go and put a 17x10 +10mm offset on it. they're moving the outside edge of the tire over 3" out and the inside edge about 1" in. That widens the track about 4" if you measure center-center.
In your case, widening it an inch or so probably makes the car feel better and more planted since it'll help reduce weight transfer and body roll. If that makes the car handle better, then so be it. just don't go so far as to run 0 or negative offset wheels since they only come in 13" and belong on lowriders.
If your control arms are pointing up at static ride height, you gots a problem. At lowest, they should be level. better to be pointing down, but that puts the car at school bus height.
Your trail-braking technique is pretty common on FWD cars. you initiate rotation by turning while all the weight is still on the nose. more weight on the front end gives the front tires more traction to turn in and start the direction change. the rear end is light and wants to continue going straight, which you see as the rear end beginning to come around.
Once the car starts to rotate, you can then release the brake and start rolling into the gas. If the car is rotating too fast, give it more gas and it will shift weight to the back, planting the rear tires and slowing the rotation.
My suggestion for a setup change is to:
1. install a rear bar (It doesn't cause suspension binding on a beam axle- those guys are tools that don't know what they're talking about.)
2. reconnect the factory front bar
3. tire pressures sound okay.
4. as much front camber as you can get (-3 or so, but that will kill tires on the street.)
5. if you're changing ride height on the car for track use, you're also changing the camber and toe as well. If you change ride height, you have to realign the whole front end. you're better off setting it at a compromise height and leave it alone.
6. reasonably soft front shock settings to give you the droop you need to keep the inside wheel on the ground. and reduce understeer.
7. stiffer rear settings to attempt to control body roll and induce some oversteer.
In your case, widening it an inch or so probably makes the car feel better and more planted since it'll help reduce weight transfer and body roll. If that makes the car handle better, then so be it. just don't go so far as to run 0 or negative offset wheels since they only come in 13" and belong on lowriders.
If your control arms are pointing up at static ride height, you gots a problem. At lowest, they should be level. better to be pointing down, but that puts the car at school bus height.
Your trail-braking technique is pretty common on FWD cars. you initiate rotation by turning while all the weight is still on the nose. more weight on the front end gives the front tires more traction to turn in and start the direction change. the rear end is light and wants to continue going straight, which you see as the rear end beginning to come around.
Once the car starts to rotate, you can then release the brake and start rolling into the gas. If the car is rotating too fast, give it more gas and it will shift weight to the back, planting the rear tires and slowing the rotation.
My suggestion for a setup change is to:
1. install a rear bar (It doesn't cause suspension binding on a beam axle- those guys are tools that don't know what they're talking about.)
2. reconnect the factory front bar
3. tire pressures sound okay.
4. as much front camber as you can get (-3 or so, but that will kill tires on the street.)
5. if you're changing ride height on the car for track use, you're also changing the camber and toe as well. If you change ride height, you have to realign the whole front end. you're better off setting it at a compromise height and leave it alone.
6. reasonably soft front shock settings to give you the droop you need to keep the inside wheel on the ground. and reduce understeer.
7. stiffer rear settings to attempt to control body roll and induce some oversteer.
Last edited by Matt93SE; 10-28-2011 at 07:48 PM.
10-28-2011, 09:57 PM
#7
Increasing track width TOO FAR can cause issues. Keep in mind if your overall offset is close to stock (I'll say within 15mm), then I wouldn't worry about it. The problem I see too often is 240 guys that have a 16x6.5" + 45mm stock wheel, then they go and put a 17x10 +10mm offset on it. they're moving the outside edge of the tire over 3" out and the inside edge about 1" in. That widens the track about 4" if you measure center-center.
In your case, widening it an inch or so probably makes the car feel better and more planted since it'll help reduce weight transfer and body roll. If that makes the car handle better, then so be it. just don't go so far as to run 0 or negative offset wheels since they only come in 13" and belong on lowriders.
-I see now, yes I just want it near the G35 rims sit offset wise, not more, that'd require some ridiculous spacer action.
If your control arms are pointing up at static ride height, you gots a problem. At lowest, they should be level. better to be pointing down, but that puts the car at school bus height.
-Maybe I mispoke, they're pointing down, just ever so slightly like 5-10 degrees, I know the importance of suh-spen-shun geometries and control arms and the roll center non-sense.
Your trail-braking technique is pretty common on FWD cars. you initiate rotation by turning while all the weight is still on the nose. more weight on the front end gives the front tires more traction to turn in and start the direction change. the rear end is light and wants to continue going straight, which you see as the rear end beginning to come around.
Once the car starts to rotate, you can then release the brake and start rolling into the gas. If the car is rotating too fast, give it more gas and it will shift weight to the back, planting the rear tires and slowing the rotation.
-It's teh tit's, I always over do it and get a little tail action though. I spun out in the bus-stop 4x, kept getting scared of my entry speed and let off the throttle and well what'dya know I'm facing the other direction
My suggestion for a setup change is to:
1. install a rear bar (It doesn't cause suspension binding on a beam axle- those guys are tools that don't know what they're talking about.)
-I wannnaaa panhardddddd!!! But I think there's a good price on a rear sway in the 4th gen section.
2. reconnect the factory front bar
-After rear sway action, I will re-attempt it
3. tire pressures sound okay.
-wrdd
4. as much front camber as you can get (-3 or so, but that will kill tires on the street.)
-My camber is always maxed out @ the track IIRC I can get it to -3.4
5. if you're changing ride height on the car for track use, you're also changing the camber and toe as well. If you change ride height, you have to realign the whole front end. you're better off setting it at a compromise height and leave it alone.
-I'm @ the alignment shop 2x a month, always gettin re-aligned when I raise/lower the car
6. reasonably soft front shock settings to give you the droop you need to keep the inside wheel on the ground. and reduce understeer.
-The front is always considerably softer than the rear, I honed in my settings via Gymkhana/Autox
7. stiffer rear settings to attempt to control body roll and induce some oversteer.
-I got the rear end is pretty stiff, I've been known to hike up a leg a few times during gymkhana.
In your case, widening it an inch or so probably makes the car feel better and more planted since it'll help reduce weight transfer and body roll. If that makes the car handle better, then so be it. just don't go so far as to run 0 or negative offset wheels since they only come in 13" and belong on lowriders.
-I see now, yes I just want it near the G35 rims sit offset wise, not more, that'd require some ridiculous spacer action.
If your control arms are pointing up at static ride height, you gots a problem. At lowest, they should be level. better to be pointing down, but that puts the car at school bus height.
-Maybe I mispoke, they're pointing down, just ever so slightly like 5-10 degrees, I know the importance of suh-spen-shun geometries and control arms and the roll center non-sense.
Your trail-braking technique is pretty common on FWD cars. you initiate rotation by turning while all the weight is still on the nose. more weight on the front end gives the front tires more traction to turn in and start the direction change. the rear end is light and wants to continue going straight, which you see as the rear end beginning to come around.
Once the car starts to rotate, you can then release the brake and start rolling into the gas. If the car is rotating too fast, give it more gas and it will shift weight to the back, planting the rear tires and slowing the rotation.
-It's teh tit's, I always over do it and get a little tail action though. I spun out in the bus-stop 4x, kept getting scared of my entry speed and let off the throttle and well what'dya know I'm facing the other direction
My suggestion for a setup change is to:
1. install a rear bar (It doesn't cause suspension binding on a beam axle- those guys are tools that don't know what they're talking about.)
-I wannnaaa panhardddddd!!! But I think there's a good price on a rear sway in the 4th gen section.
2. reconnect the factory front bar
-After rear sway action, I will re-attempt it
3. tire pressures sound okay.
-wrdd
4. as much front camber as you can get (-3 or so, but that will kill tires on the street.)
-My camber is always maxed out @ the track IIRC I can get it to -3.4
5. if you're changing ride height on the car for track use, you're also changing the camber and toe as well. If you change ride height, you have to realign the whole front end. you're better off setting it at a compromise height and leave it alone.
-I'm @ the alignment shop 2x a month, always gettin re-aligned when I raise/lower the car
6. reasonably soft front shock settings to give you the droop you need to keep the inside wheel on the ground. and reduce understeer.
-The front is always considerably softer than the rear, I honed in my settings via Gymkhana/Autox
7. stiffer rear settings to attempt to control body roll and induce some oversteer.
-I got the rear end is pretty stiff, I've been known to hike up a leg a few times during gymkhana.
Another thing.... I know how to avoid it now because over time I gained mental judgement, but it's just something that bothers me about solid rear ends.... You can be mid corner, on the edge of traction not knowing it until BOOM rear end comes out, this the norm? I mean the coilovers helped me gain some sort of sensation on what's going on back there but still nothing close to the Accord or the Diamante, I know exactly what all 4 tires are doing at all times in those cars.
Could ES bushings in the rear give me a little more sensation?? (I should PM JSutter about that....) I would LIKE to know what's going on back there rather than judgement calls, I could probably push the car harder rather than running off of mental tabs and cues from the front end.
Last edited by aackshun; 10-28-2011 at 10:06 PM.
10-29-2011, 08:15 AM
#8
If the rear is snapping out on you, then it's *usually* caused by the suspension bottoming out mid-corner. try the zip-tie-on-the-strut-shaft trick and see just how far the suspension is compressing on both ends. The other usual problem is driver input. maybe you're lifting off the gas mid-corner and don't realize it??
I've seen ES bushings do various things on cars. on your car I don't think it would be a big deal. on my 240 that has a 109875-link rear, the ES bushings caused so much suspension bind that it was causing the car to snap around in corners too. you'd be in the middle of the turn and hit a tiny bump (like the curbing at the apex) with the inside wheels, and it would cause the bushings just enough shock, they'd pop loose and the inside suspension would suddenly move an inch, causing the weight to shift around in the car and you'd snap over. happened to me about half a dozen times at TWS through through turn 9, and you wind up going sideways/backwards over rough ground at 80mph. eek!
I've seen ES bushings do various things on cars. on your car I don't think it would be a big deal. on my 240 that has a 109875-link rear, the ES bushings caused so much suspension bind that it was causing the car to snap around in corners too. you'd be in the middle of the turn and hit a tiny bump (like the curbing at the apex) with the inside wheels, and it would cause the bushings just enough shock, they'd pop loose and the inside suspension would suddenly move an inch, causing the weight to shift around in the car and you'd snap over. happened to me about half a dozen times at TWS through through turn 9, and you wind up going sideways/backwards over rough ground at 80mph. eek!
10-29-2011, 08:28 AM
#9
If the rear is snapping out on you, then it's *usually* caused by the suspension bottoming out mid-corner. try the zip-tie-on-the-strut-shaft trick and see just how far the suspension is compressing on both ends. The other usual problem is driver input. maybe you're lifting off the gas mid-corner and don't realize it??
I've seen ES bushings do various things on cars. on your car I don't think it would be a big deal. on my 240 that has a 109875-link rear, the ES bushings caused so much suspension bind that it was causing the car to snap around in corners too. you'd be in the middle of the turn and hit a tiny bump (like the curbing at the apex) with the inside wheels, and it would cause the bushings just enough shock, they'd pop loose and the inside suspension would suddenly move an inch, causing the weight to shift around in the car and you'd snap over. happened to me about half a dozen times at TWS through through turn 9, and you wind up going sideways/backwards over rough ground at 80mph. eek!
I've seen ES bushings do various things on cars. on your car I don't think it would be a big deal. on my 240 that has a 109875-link rear, the ES bushings caused so much suspension bind that it was causing the car to snap around in corners too. you'd be in the middle of the turn and hit a tiny bump (like the curbing at the apex) with the inside wheels, and it would cause the bushings just enough shock, they'd pop loose and the inside suspension would suddenly move an inch, causing the weight to shift around in the car and you'd snap over. happened to me about half a dozen times at TWS through through turn 9, and you wind up going sideways/backwards over rough ground at 80mph. eek!
Very possible I could be lifting up on the throttle, but still, I would LOVE to know what the rear end is doing exactly, like I said I got some sensation back there when I installed the coilovers I just don't know where the tires are at position wise with the vehicle.
I see I see... Hold on the bushings for awhile then.
I'm terrified of TWS, maybe when I feel like a boss around MSRH I'll go attack it one day, that high bank turn seems pretty sweet.
10-29-2011, 08:33 AM
#10
ARP wheel studs are good if you are going to mess with spacers and what not. The EVO ones are m12 x 1.5 and 75 mm long, the STI ones are m12 x 1.25 and 75 mm long. Both have a 14.3 mm knarl. I've run 20 mm spacers on track without any problems with the studs or lug nuts.
If your going to do alot of track events they are worth it, at least on the front where alot of the stress occurs. I wouldn't bother with the NISMO ones for how much they cost and I've managed to break a few on the front with R-comps and a bit of track driving.
I didn't care for have a rear sway bar, but for auto-x and tighter courses everything helps. If I can find parts to replace mine I might add it back to see how it feels with the new suspension setup.
If your going to do alot of track events they are worth it, at least on the front where alot of the stress occurs. I wouldn't bother with the NISMO ones for how much they cost and I've managed to break a few on the front with R-comps and a bit of track driving.
I didn't care for have a rear sway bar, but for auto-x and tighter courses everything helps. If I can find parts to replace mine I might add it back to see how it feels with the new suspension setup.
10-29-2011, 08:03 PM
#11
Take a zip tie or food tie twisty and wrap it fairly tightly around the strut pistion shaft at the bottom where it meets the shock cartridge (car on ground full weight). Tie it tight enough so it doesn't slide down on it's own. Throw the car through some left & right sweepers forcing body roll. The tie will rise on the shaft as the piston compresses downward. If it ends up at the top bump stop, you're bottoming out.
10-31-2011, 12:39 PM
#12
So.... Matt.... You suck.
@ NPR last weekend not having my FSB connected was cause of much detriment.
It's cool to be oversteering in a FWD Famry Sedan... But not cool to be spinning out everywhere.
I managed to gain control over my car by playing with the settings A LOT, but I think a lot of hassle would have been avoided on this specific course if I had my FSB connected in the first place.
Will I still run MSR w/o it though? Hell yeah but it's no longer in my Track Default settings though.
@ NPR last weekend not having my FSB connected was cause of much detriment.
It's cool to be oversteering in a FWD Famry Sedan... But not cool to be spinning out everywhere.
I managed to gain control over my car by playing with the settings A LOT, but I think a lot of hassle would have been avoided on this specific course if I had my FSB connected in the first place.
Will I still run MSR w/o it though? Hell yeah
but it's no longer in my Track Default settings though.
10-31-2011, 02:10 PM
#13
Umm yeah. I started making those handling mistakes about 10 years ago. I finally gave up and bought a RWD car, but I do at least know how to put a Maxima together so it handles. It involves a pretty huge front bar and a good size rear bar...
10-31-2011, 07:41 PM
#14
@ NPR oh hell yeah, but @ MSR I beg to differ....
I'm pretty sure if I was @ TWS I would have probably totalled my car... Then again I would have been A LOT more cautious because I knew in the first corner something was really odd about the pavement @ NPR
I'm pretty sure if I was @ TWS I would have probably totalled my car... Then again I would have been A LOT more cautious because I knew in the first corner something was really odd about the pavement @ NPR
11-12-2011, 11:17 AM
#16
Now to be fair, I've only tracked my car once (Summit Point, main track, 120+ mph), and spend most of my time auto-xing, but when I buy BC coilovers in the spring, I'm leaning towards 500f/400r springs as this car is still my DD, and even springs that soft will be a massive improvement over my Eibachs. Since our weight distribution is somewhere in the vicinity of 60f/40r, I was wondering if a corresponding spring rate of 600/400 would be more appropriate. What are people's thoughts on this? I get the feeling that there are diminishing returns (vs. comfort) on spring rates going much higher than that, but I could be wrong.
I do have a noobie question on the topic of spring rates: When a manufacturer says the spring rate is 8k/6k, how do you convert that to pounds? Does 8k=800 lb springs? That doesn't sounds right to me. I know stock-style springs like my Eibachs are (unofficially) rated somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 lbs. How does that compare to coilover ratings?
EDIT: I just found this info in the spring rate thread:
Originally Posted by Larrio
To figure out kg to lb difference:
metric rating - 1mm down travel per 9kg of weight
standard rating - 1 inch down travel per 500 lb weight
just take 9kg multiply by 25.4 (mm to inch) and then by 2.2 (kg to lbs)
9 x 25.4 = 228.6
228.6 x 2.2 = 502.92 lb/inch
This makes me think that the standard 8k/6k rates of the BCs would suit me quite well and be quite close to my 500/400 lb rating I was shooting for. Am I missing anything here? This is still a DD above all, and I don't want to rattle my teeth out.
Last edited by 95maxrider; 11-12-2011 at 11:26 AM.
11-12-2011, 11:33 AM
#17
Supporting Maxima.org Member
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,036
What exactly do you mean by "all the heavy stuff"? I wouldn't dream of taking off my RSB, and I have the Panhard rod conversion that greatly reduced understeer. Maybe if you're running super stiff coilovers in the rear you could reduce understeer that way, but for a car that is mostly used on the street I feel a RSB is going to be more comfortable than stiff rear springs.
Now to be fair, I've only tracked my car once (Summit Point, main track, 120+ mph), and spend most of my time auto-xing, but when I buy BC coilovers in the spring, I'm leaning towards 500f/400r springs as this car is still my DD, and even springs that soft will be a massive improvement over my Eibachs. Since our weight distribution is somewhere in the vicinity of 60f/40r, I was wondering if a corresponding spring rate of 600/400 would be more appropriate. What are people's thoughts on this? I get the feeling that there are diminishing returns (vs. comfort) on spring rates going much higher than that, but I could be wrong.
I do have a noobie question on the topic of spring rates: When a manufacturer says the spring rate is 8k/6k, how do you convert that to pounds? Does 8k=800 lb springs? That doesn't sounds right to me. I know stock-style springs like my Eibachs are (unofficially) rated somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 lbs. How does that compare to coilover ratings?
EDIT: I just found this info in the spring rate thread:
Originally Posted by Larrio
To figure out kg to lb difference:
metric rating - 1mm down travel per 9kg of weight
standard rating - 1 inch down travel per 500 lb weight
just take 9kg multiply by 25.4 (mm to inch) and then by 2.2 (kg to lbs)
9 x 25.4 = 228.6
228.6 x 2.2 = 502.92 lb/inch
This makes me think that the standard 8k/6k rates of the BCs would suit me quite well and be quite close to my 500/400 lb rating I was shooting for. Am I missing anything here? This is still a DD above all, and I don't want to rattle my teeth out.
Now to be fair, I've only tracked my car once (Summit Point, main track, 120+ mph), and spend most of my time auto-xing, but when I buy BC coilovers in the spring, I'm leaning towards 500f/400r springs as this car is still my DD, and even springs that soft will be a massive improvement over my Eibachs. Since our weight distribution is somewhere in the vicinity of 60f/40r, I was wondering if a corresponding spring rate of 600/400 would be more appropriate. What are people's thoughts on this? I get the feeling that there are diminishing returns (vs. comfort) on spring rates going much higher than that, but I could be wrong.
I do have a noobie question on the topic of spring rates: When a manufacturer says the spring rate is 8k/6k, how do you convert that to pounds? Does 8k=800 lb springs? That doesn't sounds right to me. I know stock-style springs like my Eibachs are (unofficially) rated somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 lbs. How does that compare to coilover ratings?
EDIT: I just found this info in the spring rate thread:
Originally Posted by Larrio
To figure out kg to lb difference:
metric rating - 1mm down travel per 9kg of weight
standard rating - 1 inch down travel per 500 lb weight
just take 9kg multiply by 25.4 (mm to inch) and then by 2.2 (kg to lbs)
9 x 25.4 = 228.6
228.6 x 2.2 = 502.92 lb/inch
This makes me think that the standard 8k/6k rates of the BCs would suit me quite well and be quite close to my 500/400 lb rating I was shooting for. Am I missing anything here? This is still a DD above all, and I don't want to rattle my teeth out.
On a fully lightened 4g maxima, the rear beam alone has enough roll resistance. Will see if I can get pics of my friends track max to show the setup.
11-12-2011, 02:36 PM
#18
And road racing is just auto-x with a few longer straightaways....
I just re-read the initial post again and I think I have the answer: tires. Those MXV4s are good AS tires, but if you want more front grip, get stickier tires. The difference between my Michelin M/S+ and PS2 tires are night and day. And those aren't even close to track tires. From what I understand the Hoosier R6 tires are what you want for serious road course abuse.
And if you really want to get rid of understeer, get a panhard rod!
Edit- And moving the battery to the trunk helped turn-in on my car, and can only reduce understeer. It's pretty cheap, and I'm very happy I did it.
Last edited by 95maxrider; 11-12-2011 at 03:22 PM.
11-14-2011, 06:46 AM
#19
only use the MXV4's for daily purposes. During my testing I used the MXv4s but, for srz bisness I use Kumho Ecsta Vc10s mounted to my 17x7 Velox Racing PG-5s'.
SRZ BIDNESS
Daily mode
This is a daily car (even though it hasn't been dailied in over a month now due to me being an idiot), so keep that in mind that this car will not be on an extreme diet when I go to the track or won't have any extreme mods done to it that will make day to day driving a nightmare.
I do plan on getting a panhard bar someday, just no idea when (This thanksgiving would be optimal cause I would be in Atlanta, but I neeeeed a motor).
The BC's stock springs are plenty fine, I get compliments/complaints (from the tuning crowd, ride isn't harsh enough for them) all the time people always swear I don't have coil overs and think I'm just on drop springs and tokico blues or sumfin.
If I were building a track car I would definitely go up in the spring dept though.
SRZ BIDNESS
Daily mode
This is a daily car (even though it hasn't been dailied in over a month now due to me being an idiot), so keep that in mind that this car will not be on an extreme diet when I go to the track or won't have any extreme mods done to it that will make day to day driving a nightmare.
I do plan on getting a panhard bar someday, just no idea when (This thanksgiving would be optimal cause I would be in Atlanta, but I neeeeed a motor).
The BC's stock springs are plenty fine, I get compliments/complaints (from the tuning crowd, ride isn't harsh enough for them) all the time people always swear I don't have coil overs and think I'm just on drop springs and tokico blues or sumfin.
If I were building a track car I would definitely go up in the spring dept though.
11-15-2011, 11:00 AM
#20
Google is smrt.
As for the rates, 500/400 would be pretty stiff. for a DD, I would personally go softer, especially on a lighter car. My heavy **** 3 gen has 450/450 and it's annoying to anybody but me. i.e. my wife refuses to ride in it.
I would go with a 350/300 setup if it were my choice for a DD car.
For a track-only car, I would go with 600/450.
11-15-2011, 11:32 AM
#21
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...l680l4.1.1l6l0
Google is smrt.
As for the rates, 500/400 would be pretty stiff. for a DD, I would personally go softer, especially on a lighter car. My heavy **** 3 gen has 450/450 and it's annoying to anybody but me. i.e. my wife refuses to ride in it.
I would go with a 350/300 setup if it were my choice for a DD car.
For a track-only car, I would go with 600/450.
Google is smrt.
As for the rates, 500/400 would be pretty stiff. for a DD, I would personally go softer, especially on a lighter car. My heavy **** 3 gen has 450/450 and it's annoying to anybody but me. i.e. my wife refuses to ride in it.
I would go with a 350/300 setup if it were my choice for a DD car.
For a track-only car, I would go with 600/450.
11-15-2011, 11:53 AM
#22
It depends on available shocks, and people's interpretation of "comfort".
8k/6k on my S14 with KTS coilovers is brutal on the street, but fine on the track.
8k/6k with properly adjusted Koni 8611s on an S13 takes bumps about like the NISMO S-tune suspension on my G35- sporty but compliant. Performance is vastly superior though, but probably because of the 1000lb weight difference and foot lower cg.
8k/6k on my S14 with KTS coilovers is brutal on the street, but fine on the track.
8k/6k with properly adjusted Koni 8611s on an S13 takes bumps about like the NISMO S-tune suspension on my G35- sporty but compliant. Performance is vastly superior though, but probably because of the 1000lb weight difference and foot lower cg.
11-15-2011, 11:55 AM
#23
It depends on available shocks, and people's interpretation of "comfort".
8k/6k on my S14 with KTS coilovers is brutal on the street, but fine on the track.
8k/6k with properly adjusted Koni 8611s on an S13 takes bumps about like the NISMO S-tune suspension on my G35- sporty but compliant. Performance is vastly superior though, but probably because of the 1000lb weight difference and foot lower cg.
8k/6k on my S14 with KTS coilovers is brutal on the street, but fine on the track.
8k/6k with properly adjusted Koni 8611s on an S13 takes bumps about like the NISMO S-tune suspension on my G35- sporty but compliant. Performance is vastly superior though, but probably because of the 1000lb weight difference and foot lower cg.
OAN.....
Even been to Eagle Canyon? I'm setting my sights on one of thier Fiddy dollah track days....
11-16-2011, 06:20 AM
#24
Your shock valving can affect harshness and comfort as much as spring rates. Drive the same shocks in 80deg weather then in 30deg when the oil thickens and you'll see. Some of what's felt is the more aggressive compression damping of shocks used to support higher spring rates.
11-16-2011, 09:52 AM
#25
Eagle's Canyon.. yeah, I've run a few races there. Fun track, but very bumpy. I heard they repaved some of the nasty sections though so it should be better.
See if you can beat a 2:10 lap.
Bejay, I forgot about that part too.. Yeah my G35 rides much better (hey the shocks are 200k old now!) in the winder. My 240 gets even more brutal in the winter due to the additional damping from the thicker oil.
See if you can beat a 2:10 lap.
Bejay, I forgot about that part too.. Yeah my G35 rides much better (hey the shocks are 200k old now!) in the winder. My 240 gets even more brutal in the winter due to the additional damping from the thicker oil.
11-17-2011, 01:53 PM
#26
Eagle's Canyon.. yeah, I've run a few races there. Fun track, but very bumpy. I heard they repaved some of the nasty sections though so it should be better.
See if you can beat a 2:10 lap.
Bejay, I forgot about that part too.. Yeah my G35 rides much better (hey the shocks are 200k old now!) in the winder. My 240 gets even more brutal in the winter due to the additional damping from the thicker oil.
See if you can beat a 2:10 lap.
Bejay, I forgot about that part too.. Yeah my G35 rides much better (hey the shocks are 200k old now!) in the winder. My 240 gets even more brutal in the winter due to the additional damping from the thicker oil.
2:10 you say?
01-26-2012, 05:50 PM
#27
Adjustable outer tie rods... Do I really need em???
I don't really notice bump steer even when I'm slammed (I guess i'm used to it), and when I road course the car it's really not even that much lower than stock, i'd say about 1.5 inch drop MAXIMUM, I just drop it until the control arms are 5* below parallel to the ground.
I don't really notice bump steer even when I'm slammed (I guess i'm used to it), and when I road course the car it's really not even that much lower than stock, i'd say about 1.5 inch drop MAXIMUM, I just drop it until the control arms are 5* below parallel to the ground.
Last edited by aackshun; 01-26-2012 at 05:58 PM.
01-26-2012, 07:32 PM
#28
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (60)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,036
Adjustable outer tie rods... Do I really need em???
I don't really notice bump steer even when I'm slammed (I guess i'm used to it), and when I road course the car it's really not even that much lower than stock, i'd say about 1.5 inch drop MAXIMUM, I just drop it until the control arms are 5* below parallel to the ground.
I don't really notice bump steer even when I'm slammed (I guess i'm used to it), and when I road course the car it's really not even that much lower than stock, i'd say about 1.5 inch drop MAXIMUM, I just drop it until the control arms are 5* below parallel to the ground.
But a "bumpsteer kit" is not a good idea if inboard and/or outbard control arm pivots are still stock.
01-26-2012, 08:05 PM
#29
Hrmm interesting, I will stick w/ my stock style outers then.
01-26-2012, 11:15 PM
#30
Adjustable outer tie rods... Do I really need em???
I don't really notice bump steer even when I'm slammed (I guess i'm used to it), and when I road course the car it's really not even that much lower than stock, i'd say about 1.5 inch drop MAXIMUM, I just drop it until the control arms are 5* below parallel to the ground.
I don't really notice bump steer even when I'm slammed (I guess i'm used to it), and when I road course the car it's really not even that much lower than stock, i'd say about 1.5 inch drop MAXIMUM, I just drop it until the control arms are 5* below parallel to the ground.
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