Issues switching between street and track pads on same set of rotors?
06-21-2012, 12:52 PM
#1
Issues switching between street and track pads on same set of rotors?
I've been hearing two different opinions regarding the use of a single set of brake rotors and switching between street and track pads and I want to get a discussion going here about what can and should be done. I know plenty of people do this on here, so if you do, please post your experiences and what street/track pads you use.
I'm in the market for some track pads and was speaking to a retailer and while he said I could probably get away with throwing track pads on at the track on my street rotors, there is the potential for the street pads to not properly bed in again after the harder track pad material is already on the rotor. He did say the problem could possibly be lessened by running the same brand of street/track pad, since the chemical compounds within a certain company would likely be more similar than between two different brands. For example, running a Hawk pad for the street and Carbotech on the track wouldn't be as ideal is using Hawk for both or Carbotech for both.
I've been running Hawk HPS for as long as I can remember, but it sounds like if I'm using Hoosiers for auto-x, I really need the HP+ pads. From what little I've read about them on here, they sound like they're perfectly fine for daily driving and much better suited for auto-x than HPS. If you disagree, please say so.
Just for reference, I've done one track session with my car on HPS pads on a course reaching speeds of 120 mph, and they just barely lasted one 20 minute session. I now would like to do a full day at the track, which would be four 20 minute sessions. I know an HPS won't stand up to that, but I'm wondering if an HP+ will. If it will, then I would avoid the whole mess of getting dedicated track pads.
I was then thinking about the Carbotech XP-8 for track use since I will not be using the Hoosiers for track use; I will just use my DD Michelin Super Sport tires. But this brings up the problem of using two different compounds (and brands) on one set of rotors.
So in an ideal world, I would have a dedicated set of track pads AND rotors. But a spare set of 2-piece rotors just isn't in my budget. However, I also don't want to ruin these by switching between pads/brands. So what's a guy to do? Plop down the extra cash now on a spare set of track rotors or risk messing up my current ones by running two different compounds on them?
I'm in the market for some track pads and was speaking to a retailer and while he said I could probably get away with throwing track pads on at the track on my street rotors, there is the potential for the street pads to not properly bed in again after the harder track pad material is already on the rotor. He did say the problem could possibly be lessened by running the same brand of street/track pad, since the chemical compounds within a certain company would likely be more similar than between two different brands. For example, running a Hawk pad for the street and Carbotech on the track wouldn't be as ideal is using Hawk for both or Carbotech for both.
I've been running Hawk HPS for as long as I can remember, but it sounds like if I'm using Hoosiers for auto-x, I really need the HP+ pads. From what little I've read about them on here, they sound like they're perfectly fine for daily driving and much better suited for auto-x than HPS. If you disagree, please say so.
Just for reference, I've done one track session with my car on HPS pads on a course reaching speeds of 120 mph, and they just barely lasted one 20 minute session. I now would like to do a full day at the track, which would be four 20 minute sessions. I know an HPS won't stand up to that, but I'm wondering if an HP+ will. If it will, then I would avoid the whole mess of getting dedicated track pads.
I was then thinking about the Carbotech XP-8 for track use since I will not be using the Hoosiers for track use; I will just use my DD Michelin Super Sport tires. But this brings up the problem of using two different compounds (and brands) on one set of rotors.
So in an ideal world, I would have a dedicated set of track pads AND rotors. But a spare set of 2-piece rotors just isn't in my budget. However, I also don't want to ruin these by switching between pads/brands. So what's a guy to do? Plop down the extra cash now on a spare set of track rotors or risk messing up my current ones by running two different compounds on them?
06-22-2012, 12:46 AM
#2
I've been hearing two different opinions regarding the use of a single set of brake rotors and switching between street and track pads and I want to get a discussion going here about what can and should be done. I know plenty of people do this on here, so if you do, please post your experiences and what street/track pads you use.
I'm in the market for some track pads and was speaking to a retailer and while he said I could probably get away with throwing track pads on at the track on my street rotors, there is the potential for the street pads to not properly bed in again after the harder track pad material is already on the rotor. He did say the problem could possibly be lessened by running the same brand of street/track pad, since the chemical compounds within a certain company would likely be more similar than between two different brands. For example, running a Hawk pad for the street and Carbotech on the track wouldn't be as ideal is using Hawk for both or Carbotech for both.
I've been running Hawk HPS for as long as I can remember, but it sounds like if I'm using Hoosiers for auto-x, I really need the HP+ pads. From what little I've read about them on here, they sound like they're perfectly fine for daily driving and much better suited for auto-x than HPS. If you disagree, please say so.
Just for reference, I've done one track session with my car on HPS pads on a course reaching speeds of 120 mph, and they just barely lasted one 20 minute session. I now would like to do a full day at the track, which would be four 20 minute sessions. I know an HPS won't stand up to that, but I'm wondering if an HP+ will. If it will, then I would avoid the whole mess of getting dedicated track pads.
I was then thinking about the Carbotech XP-8 for track use since I will not be using the Hoosiers for track use; I will just use my DD Michelin Super Sport tires. But this brings up the problem of using two different compounds (and brands) on one set of rotors.
So in an ideal world, I would have a dedicated set of track pads AND rotors. But a spare set of 2-piece rotors just isn't in my budget. However, I also don't want to ruin these by switching between pads/brands. So what's a guy to do? Plop down the extra cash now on a spare set of track rotors or risk messing up my current ones by running two different compounds on them?
I'm in the market for some track pads and was speaking to a retailer and while he said I could probably get away with throwing track pads on at the track on my street rotors, there is the potential for the street pads to not properly bed in again after the harder track pad material is already on the rotor. He did say the problem could possibly be lessened by running the same brand of street/track pad, since the chemical compounds within a certain company would likely be more similar than between two different brands. For example, running a Hawk pad for the street and Carbotech on the track wouldn't be as ideal is using Hawk for both or Carbotech for both.
I've been running Hawk HPS for as long as I can remember, but it sounds like if I'm using Hoosiers for auto-x, I really need the HP+ pads. From what little I've read about them on here, they sound like they're perfectly fine for daily driving and much better suited for auto-x than HPS. If you disagree, please say so.
Just for reference, I've done one track session with my car on HPS pads on a course reaching speeds of 120 mph, and they just barely lasted one 20 minute session. I now would like to do a full day at the track, which would be four 20 minute sessions. I know an HPS won't stand up to that, but I'm wondering if an HP+ will. If it will, then I would avoid the whole mess of getting dedicated track pads.
I was then thinking about the Carbotech XP-8 for track use since I will not be using the Hoosiers for track use; I will just use my DD Michelin Super Sport tires. But this brings up the problem of using two different compounds (and brands) on one set of rotors.
So in an ideal world, I would have a dedicated set of track pads AND rotors. But a spare set of 2-piece rotors just isn't in my budget. However, I also don't want to ruin these by switching between pads/brands. So what's a guy to do? Plop down the extra cash now on a spare set of track rotors or risk messing up my current ones by running two different compounds on them?
I've run street and track pads on the same two piece Blehmco 6th gen rotors for years. No issues what so ever with that combo of track pads or street pads, heck you drove my car on the Wagner street pads.
What was really bad? Running Hawk HP+ pads on those rotors for track days.
IMO DO NOT run Hawk HPS or HP+ pads and sticky tires on a road course day, you will be sorry. Besides being sorta expensive the pads wear far to quickly on our front heavy cars and leave uneven deposits on the rotors.
When I first did some track events I used the HP+ pads with stock rotors and Toyo summer tires, my car setup sucked so I didn't go that fast. When I stepped up to the NT01s and better suspension those HP+ pads didn't last long.
Sooo I had thought I learned my lesson when I ran 4th gen rotors and HP+ pads, but no... When I got even better suspension mods and the 300ZX calipers with the Blehmco rotors I ran HP+ again and they only lasted TWO track days. They were almost worn down to the metal and left uneven deposits on the rotors which I had to get machined off.
I Got the XP8s and Wagners in July '09 and have been using the same pads ever since. I've done 6 track days on the XP8s and they are about 55~60% gone, so I guess I've got another 2 ~ 3 track days left on them.
I am sure there are other track pads available that compare to the XP8s, but my experience and knowledge is limited. I just think the Hawk HP+ pads suck.
Between the noise and dust they produce along with the short lifespan and higher cost there are much better options out there. Even in the Hawk family of brake pads, the blue and black race pads have worked well for some people I know. With the 300ZX calipers your brake pad options are almost unlimited.
06-22-2012, 06:06 AM
#3
I am sure there are other track pads available that compare to the XP8s, but my experience and knowledge is limited. I just think the Hawk HP+ pads suck. Between the noise and dust they produce along with the short lifespan and higher cost there are much better options out there. Even in the Hawk family of brake pads, the blue and black race pads have worked well for some people I know. With the 300ZX calipers your brake pad options are almost unlimited.
Between the noise and dust they produce along with the short lifespan and higher cost there are much better options out there. Even in the Hawk family of brake pads, the blue and black race pads have worked well for some people I know. With the 300ZX calipers your brake pad options are almost unlimited.I know the HP+ aren't suitable for road course use, but wouldn't they be fine for auto-x? I was quite happy with the HPS pads on my Q45 setup at auto-x, so I would think the HP+ would be quite awesome. No?
BTW, I'm on Wilwood calipers.
Last edited by 95maxrider; 06-22-2012 at 06:24 AM.
06-22-2012, 07:33 AM
#4
The more I read about the HP+ pads, the more I hear about corrosive brake dust and squealing. I started looking into the Carbotech AX6 pads for street/auto-x and they sound much better all around than the HP+. Does anyone know anything about those pads?
06-22-2012, 09:35 AM
#5
It took him about 30 seconds to sell me on the XP8 over an HP+ offering. When I did the math, the cost per event of the XP8 was a LOT cheaper than with HP+. I had not planned to spend the extra $75-80 for the XP8s over the HP+ but the more I researched it after the purchase the more I am glad that I went that route.
06-22-2012, 10:01 AM
#6
Ken from KNS brakes was adamant (at least in my application ) that the AX6 were a better street option than anything from Hawk.
It took him about 30 seconds to sell me on the XP8 over an HP+ offering. When I did the math, the cost per event of the XP8 was a LOT cheaper than with HP+. I had not planned to spend the extra $75-80 for the XP8s over the HP+ but the more I researched it after the purchase the more I am glad that I went that route.
It took him about 30 seconds to sell me on the XP8 over an HP+ offering. When I did the math, the cost per event of the XP8 was a LOT cheaper than with HP+. I had not planned to spend the extra $75-80 for the XP8s over the HP+ but the more I researched it after the purchase the more I am glad that I went that route.
Carbotech doesn't recommend the AX6 for DD use or for use with R comps; but I'm not sure if they mean R comps at auto-x or on a road course. They also say they dust a lot and can squeal. As I've mentioned before, I'm not sure what pads are on the Wilwoods right now, but they squeal, and man, I forgot how much I hate squeal
I really don't want my DD pads to squeal, but I need more braking power for street/auto-x and I don't want to swap pads at every auto-x event.
06-22-2012, 10:05 AM
#7
Did you call my guy and talk to him about the AX6 for autoX use?
07-05-2012, 02:00 PM
#8
My recommendations for a wilwood caliper:
Hawk HPS for street and auto X
Hawk HT10 or Carbotech XP10 for track use
The HT10 are benign enough to use for auto X if you don't want to use the HPS.. that said, I've never had a problem making several short HARD stops on the HPS on my cars. (My DD is a G35 w/ Stoptechs and I run HPS on it every day..)
I've also used Ferodo DS2500 with great success. They wore quickly on track, but were usable for both street and track (with r comps) and were friendly on rotors. they were dusty, but quiet. also roughly same price as HPS.
That said, Hawk HT10 are relatively cheap, and last me a looong time. I've done probably 8 race weekends (about 2 1/2hrs track time per weekend), on my S14 with Superlites, and the pads are still about 40%. then again, that's a 2650lb car (with me in it) and only about 160hp.
Hawk HPS for street and auto X
Hawk HT10 or Carbotech XP10 for track use
The HT10 are benign enough to use for auto X if you don't want to use the HPS.. that said, I've never had a problem making several short HARD stops on the HPS on my cars. (My DD is a G35 w/ Stoptechs and I run HPS on it every day..)
I've also used Ferodo DS2500 with great success. They wore quickly on track, but were usable for both street and track (with r comps) and were friendly on rotors. they were dusty, but quiet. also roughly same price as HPS.
That said, Hawk HT10 are relatively cheap, and last me a looong time. I've done probably 8 race weekends (about 2 1/2hrs track time per weekend), on my S14 with Superlites, and the pads are still about 40%. then again, that's a 2650lb car (with me in it) and only about 160hp.
07-06-2012, 08:06 PM
#9
I found HP+ to be fine for street use, a little bit weak in the first stop of a cool morning but once you got them up above ambient temp they were fine. I never had any issues with the dust and I didn't wash my wheels very often. The dust is an odd color presumably because of the iron in it... it is a little reddish. I found them to be insufficient for track use on stock size rotors, once I stepped up to 13" fronts they were closer to sufficient but still left a bit to be desired. For autoX use they would be fine. I don't recall having any brake squeal with them.
HPS were ok for street use. I think I had them at the time I did the few autoXs I've ever done.
Not relevant to the top but Carbotech XP10s on the track rock my socks. Way more brake than tire at that point of course.
As to the original question I personally have no issues with going from track pads to street pads on the same rotors.
HPS were ok for street use. I think I had them at the time I did the few autoXs I've ever done.
Not relevant to the top but Carbotech XP10s on the track rock my socks. Way more brake than tire at that point of course.
As to the original question I personally have no issues with going from track pads to street pads on the same rotors.
07-30-2012, 07:32 PM
#10
HPS are really street pads. I've heard of people having issues with them on the autox course with sticky tires.
HP+ I use on the rx7 and have run them at a couple HPDEs with street tires. They were fine for that but I was also just learning. I also run them on the street in the Rx7 too and short of winter driving I see them as perfectly suitable/safe for street driving. Just noisy
Regardless of what you do, almost everyone overlooks how big of a difference airflow makes. I would pull those fog lights in a heartbeat and get some brake cooling ducts in there. Will allow you to run a less aggressive pad, and have less pad wear at the end of each track day.
Ohh yeah and to answer your original question, I'm under the impression that as long as the street pads/track pads are the same type its fine. Semi metallic / semi metallic or ceramic / ceramic don't mix the 2.
HP+ I use on the rx7 and have run them at a couple HPDEs with street tires. They were fine for that but I was also just learning. I also run them on the street in the Rx7 too and short of winter driving I see them as perfectly suitable/safe for street driving. Just noisy
Regardless of what you do, almost everyone overlooks how big of a difference airflow makes. I would pull those fog lights in a heartbeat and get some brake cooling ducts in there. Will allow you to run a less aggressive pad, and have less pad wear at the end of each track day.
Ohh yeah and to answer your original question, I'm under the impression that as long as the street pads/track pads are the same type its fine. Semi metallic / semi metallic or ceramic / ceramic don't mix the 2.
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