E85 questions
07-18-2006, 08:50 PM
#1
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 96
E85 questions
With the vq35 coming with the options for E85 fuel. Now if you do the swap into a 4th gen an use a stand alone is it possible to tune the stand alone to do it? If anyone knows fill me in? Or is it there away to convert a vq30 to work w/ E85? Also how does this fuel work w/ boost?
07-18-2006, 08:56 PM
#2
07-19-2006, 05:08 AM
#6
Originally Posted by tavarish
it takes more energy to make E-85 than it does to make gasoline.
07-19-2006, 08:08 AM
#7
Originally Posted by MaximaSE96
but E-85 will also perform better...burns hotter and like million times cleaner.....More timing FTW....once there are more ways and more people mass producing e-85 the price will drop dramatcially....i am sure someone wil have a conversion kit available for most cars when it becomes more readily available
Dude, you got it wrong, E85 doesn't burn hotter. In fact, from petro-chemical classes, these new fuels do burn cleaner but not as hot. You won't see much torque over these fuels. Plus, it takes about twice the energy to make this than gasoline. Your gas milage for E85 will be about 65% of the amount that you'll get from regular gasoline. Why would you pay more greens to run less miles? Last thing we will do is to convert from power petro fuel to the fermentated weak-azz alcohol's.
07-19-2006, 09:56 AM
#8
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 96
Well i do know that e-85 isnt as strong as petro; however it is a start in the right direction. Giving the option of both fuels is a wonderful concept and would be nice to utilize. Thats all my grief is. I've also caught some rumors of pipes being sent up to Alaska so hopefull that will be good.
07-19-2006, 10:09 AM
#9
Please show me where you've found E85 gives 65% of the mileage of unleaded.
I'm sure I know where that BS comes from and that is based on a flawed test of dumping E85 into a non-flex fuel vehicle with no tuning.
I'm sure I know where that BS comes from and that is based on a flawed test of dumping E85 into a non-flex fuel vehicle with no tuning.
Originally Posted by GodFather
Dude, you got it wrong, E85 doesn't burn hotter. In fact, from petro-chemical classes, these new fuels do burn cleaner but not as hot. You won't see much torque over these fuels. Plus, it takes about twice the energy to make this than gasoline. Your gas milage for E85 will be about 65% of the amount that you'll get from regular gasoline. Why would you pay more greens to run less miles? Last thing we will do is to convert from power petro fuel to the fermentated weak-azz alcohol's.
07-19-2006, 10:20 AM
#10
Anybody can run upto 20% ethanol safely...supposedly anything above that risks corrosion issues on anything plastic or rubber in the fuel system. If you intend to run higher concentrations, be prepared to replace your fuel filter a couple times since the alcohol knocks loose all the crap build up in the fuel tank.
I've run 20-30% E85 in my Max with no noticeable mileage difference. The only difference I've found in low concentrations is the exhaust smells like fermentation/fermaldahyde.
If you plan to run higher then 20% ethanol by concentration, you need an AFC to add more fuel to your open-loop map by at least 30%.
I've run 20-30% E85 in my Max with no noticeable mileage difference. The only difference I've found in low concentrations is the exhaust smells like fermentation/fermaldahyde.
If you plan to run higher then 20% ethanol by concentration, you need an AFC to add more fuel to your open-loop map by at least 30%.
07-19-2006, 10:24 AM
#11
There won't ever be a legal conversion kit due to EPA regulations.
Besides the theoretical corrosion issues, all you really need to do is richen your AFR and you can even add timing to take full advantage of the 105-octane rating.
Drag racers I know here are switching from high priced race gas to E85.
Besides the theoretical corrosion issues, all you really need to do is richen your AFR and you can even add timing to take full advantage of the 105-octane rating.
Drag racers I know here are switching from high priced race gas to E85.
Originally Posted by MaximaSE96
i am sure someone wil have a conversion kit available for most cars when it becomes more readily available
07-19-2006, 10:30 AM
#12
the newer flex fuel cars have the fuel system to resist the corrosion....but whatever I dont care...no matter what replaced or starts to be come more common will still jsut cost as much as gasoline.....**** it just build an alcohol or methanol motor
on a side note most gas stations in WNY have 10-15% ethanol in the gas
on a side note most gas stations in WNY have 10-15% ethanol in the gas
07-19-2006, 10:58 AM
#14
All flex-fuel cars have a stainless steel fuel tank, teflon coated fuel lines, alcohol impervious gaskets, and what I'd really like to know is some kind of alcohol resistant plastic fuel injectors. Not to mention an adaptive ECU.
Gasolines' price depends on foreign oil, world supply, events, etc.. If we could make enough E85 or better E100 with Brazil imports and domestic production, it would be no where near as expensive nor as volatile.
We get 10% ethanol blend from June-Sept. I believe, but with MTBE being phased out, it will be year round soon.
Gasolines' price depends on foreign oil, world supply, events, etc.. If we could make enough E85 or better E100 with Brazil imports and domestic production, it would be no where near as expensive nor as volatile.
We get 10% ethanol blend from June-Sept. I believe, but with MTBE being phased out, it will be year round soon.
Originally Posted by MaximaSE96
the newer flex fuel cars have the fuel system to resist the corrosion....but whatever I dont care...no matter what replaced or starts to be come more common will still jsut cost as much as gasoline.....**** it just build an alcohol or methanol motor
on a side note most gas stations in WNY have 10-15% ethanol in the gas
on a side note most gas stations in WNY have 10-15% ethanol in the gas
07-19-2006, 11:01 AM
#15
It will never be the only fuel...just an alternative. Brazil has unleaded with 20% or so ethanol and E100. They choose E100 when gas is .50/gallon or whatever more expensive. Kind of caps what gas prices can go up to.
E85 is cool stuff...you can make your own a lot easier then biodiesel, however it is illegal. Gov wants their taxes!
E85 is cool stuff...you can make your own a lot easier then biodiesel, however it is illegal. Gov wants their taxes!
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
When this crap is the only fuel, I'll be on diesel. Turbo that is
07-19-2006, 12:42 PM
#16
Well, I work for the oil industry down here in the Gulf. When we toured Chevron's refinery last year, they gave us a long talk about E85 not being able to sustain the same gas/milage effeciency as the petro gasoline. They did mention that E85 fuel can only achieve about 60-70% of the petro's. I haven't got updated to the new improvements, but that's how it was. Basically, none of these evil oil people would like a share of the E85's...I was convinced.
07-19-2006, 01:01 PM
#17
Chevron is the most anti-E85 corp I've seen, however I think they're starting to change their tune. I've read an article about how at one time they were even putting out signs in front of stations saying something like "ethanol = more car repairs" or something. They hate being mandated to offer E10, since they have to buy ethanol from outside their company which cuts into their profits. I exclusively buy Chevron fuel, so don't think I'm anti-Chevron.
Check out this Fuel Economy Study:
http://www.ethanol.org/documents/ACE...onomyStudy.pdf
Check out this Fuel Economy Study:
http://www.ethanol.org/documents/ACE...onomyStudy.pdf
07-19-2006, 01:11 PM
#18
For those that want to spike their fuel with E85 to bump octane(based on 18.5gal tank capacity)...
Ethanol E85 Mix 87 Mix 89 Mix 91
Ethanol% #Gallons #Gallons Octane Octane Octane
0% 0 0.00 87.0 89.0 91.0
10% 1.85 2.18 89.1 90.9 92.6
20% 3.7 4.35 91.2 92.8 94.3
30% 5.55 6.53 93.4 94.6 95.9
40% 7.4 8.71 95.5 96.5 97.6
50% 9.25 10.88 97.6 98.4 99.2
60% 11.1 13.06 99.7 100.3 100.9
70% 12.95 15.24 101.8 102.2 102.5
80% 14.8 17.41 103.9 104.1 104.2
85% 15.725 18.50 105.0 105.0 105.0
Ethanol E85 Mix 87 Mix 89 Mix 91
Ethanol% #Gallons #Gallons Octane Octane Octane
0% 0 0.00 87.0 89.0 91.0
10% 1.85 2.18 89.1 90.9 92.6
20% 3.7 4.35 91.2 92.8 94.3
30% 5.55 6.53 93.4 94.6 95.9
40% 7.4 8.71 95.5 96.5 97.6
50% 9.25 10.88 97.6 98.4 99.2
60% 11.1 13.06 99.7 100.3 100.9
70% 12.95 15.24 101.8 102.2 102.5
80% 14.8 17.41 103.9 104.1 104.2
85% 15.725 18.50 105.0 105.0 105.0
07-19-2006, 01:16 PM
#19
Play around with this calc....http://www.ranney.com/~mjr/fuel_blend.html to see what octane and savings blending can achieve...
18.5gal capacity
91oct@$3.00
105oct@$2.50
91oct = $55.5
105oct = $46.25(-$9.25)
18.5gal capacity
91oct@$3.00
105oct@$2.50
91oct = $55.5
105oct = $46.25(-$9.25)
07-19-2006, 01:32 PM
#21
Cool....
Pretty sure this has been posted, but here's the guy that inspired my opinion/research:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Pretty sure this has been posted, but here's the guy that inspired my opinion/research:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
07-19-2006, 01:48 PM
#22
Go here and you can see what fueleconomy.gov rates the mileage for E85 vs. Unleaded in Flex-Fuel vehicles:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm
Looks like E85 FFVs on average lose ~3-5mpg city/4-8mpg hwy.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm
Looks like E85 FFVs on average lose ~3-5mpg city/4-8mpg hwy.
07-19-2006, 03:47 PM
#23
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 96
So if you changed out your gaskets, upgrade the fuel lines and custom made a gas tank and coated it and tuned the car for i could run e-85. Now it is true that you will lose 3-5 mpg; however if the demand for e-85 goes up than gasoline will lower its price to compete and i want a car able to handle both situations if you understand that.
07-19-2006, 03:55 PM
#24
If I was going to run E85 exclusively, then I'd get a fuel cell.
http://www.atlltd.com/pdf/important/...eaded_Fuel.pdf
http://www.atlinc.com/racing/pdfs/page13.pdf
Then for SS lines:
http://www.russellperformance.com/au...ex_prace.shtml
Also, a Walbro. Not sure how well the stocker can take alcohol, but supposedly Walbros can at least for awhile.
As for gaskets, orings, fuel injectors, fpr/damper diaphrams, etc, I probably wouldn't worry, but just monitor them.
You might try and find a FFV in a junkyard and scalp some parts.
http://www.atlltd.com/pdf/important/...eaded_Fuel.pdf
http://www.atlinc.com/racing/pdfs/page13.pdf
Then for SS lines:
http://www.russellperformance.com/au...ex_prace.shtml
Also, a Walbro. Not sure how well the stocker can take alcohol, but supposedly Walbros can at least for awhile.
As for gaskets, orings, fuel injectors, fpr/damper diaphrams, etc, I probably wouldn't worry, but just monitor them.
You might try and find a FFV in a junkyard and scalp some parts.
07-20-2006, 01:25 PM
#25
As for performance cars in the near future, here's a SAAB concept AeroX running E100...
2.8L V6 12:1 CR Direct injection 400hp@5000/368tq@2000-5000.
http://www2.saabusa.com/aerox/US/en/index.asp
2.8L V6 12:1 CR Direct injection 400hp@5000/368tq@2000-5000.
http://www2.saabusa.com/aerox/US/en/index.asp
07-24-2006, 07:32 AM
#26
BUY MY CARS PLEASE!!!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 946
Originally Posted by NASIOC E85 Thread
Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).
Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).
and people with emanage and similar systems can use 100% E85 right?
07-24-2006, 08:11 AM
#28
BUY MY CARS PLEASE!!!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 946
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
If I was going to run E85 exclusively, then I'd get a fuel cell.
http://www.atlltd.com/pdf/important/...eaded_Fuel.pdf
http://www.atlinc.com/racing/pdfs/page13.pdf
http://www.atlltd.com/pdf/important/...eaded_Fuel.pdf
http://www.atlinc.com/racing/pdfs/page13.pdf
07-24-2006, 10:37 AM
#29
Originally Posted by pawnstar12
so its rated 100 octane by its self but 118 octane if mixed with gas?
and people with emanage and similar systems can use 100% E85 right?
07-25-2006, 08:22 AM
#31
That's what pi$$es me off. More people would run the stuff, especially turbocharged guys running on 91-craptane, but they can't get it.
What about this one? It doesn't say "Private Facility" like the others.
Navy Annex Citgo Station
801 S. Joyce Street
Arlington, VA 22204
703-979-3891
View Map
Your absolutely right...E85 shouldn't cost more then $2. If I had the time/energy/place, I'd try distilling my own:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&cd=10
What about this one? It doesn't say "Private Facility" like the others.
Navy Annex Citgo Station
801 S. Joyce Street
Arlington, VA 22204
703-979-3891
View Map
Your absolutely right...E85 shouldn't cost more then $2. If I had the time/energy/place, I'd try distilling my own:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&cd=10
Originally Posted by pawnstar12
man there arent any e85 station in va period! all are private DOD stations. and in DC they are price gouging like a ****. this stuff should be 1.99 a gal not 2.99
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