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VQ35HR Block

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Old 09-14-2006, 10:41 PM
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VQ35HR Block

Not sure if it makes any sense at all but is it possible that Nissan uses the VQ40 block for the VQ35HR? I mean, both the VQ35 and VQ40 have 95.5 mm pistons, the difference is the stroke (VQ35 has an 81.4 mm stroke and the VQ40 has a 92 mm stroke). So they raised the deck height on the VQ40 (not sure on exactly how much).

From what I've read the VQ35HR has longer rods to be able to rev to 7500 safely but still displaces 3498 cc. So they had to raise the deck height. Wouldn't it be dumb for Nissan NOT to use the existing VQ40 block since it already has a raised deck height to accomodate the longer stroke? The 4.0L needs the taller block for its longer stroke and the 3.5LHR needs the taller block to rev safely. Does this make any sense to anyone else?
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Old 09-14-2006, 11:21 PM
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the HR uses a bottom end called a bed plate which essentially is the entire bottom 3" or so of the block bolts on seperate from the rest of the block. this eliminates main caps and many other main cap related problems, supposedly this new design with bolts and all should be good to 1000HP (thats the bed plate only). does the vq40 use the bed plate design?
 
Old 09-15-2006, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JClaw
From what I've read the VQ35HR has longer rods to be able to rev to 7500 safely but still displaces 3498 cc
The longer rods are primarily for reduced thrust loads on the piston skirts and better breathing at high RPM by allowing for more dwell time @ BDC.
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Old 09-15-2006, 03:13 AM
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I don't know if it is the same block, but I think that both are 9.6-9.8mm taller than the VQ35. I can't remember the exact number.
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Old 09-15-2006, 03:29 AM
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Then it has to be the same block. Why would they design another block with pretty much the same dimentions?
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:14 AM
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This shot perfectly explains why a new block is required. As hooper explained the new design has crazy bottom end strength. This new design would necessitate a different block casting.
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Old 09-15-2006, 08:24 AM
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It just looks like they added a stronger girdle that replaced the top of the upper oil pan. There might be some changes to the casting, but it is probably strongly based on the VQ40 block.
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Old 09-15-2006, 09:26 AM
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It didn't just replace the upper oil pan. It replaced everything below the centerline of the crank including the caged design found previously on the VQ's. And we thought the cage was strong. This motor is the most beefy indestructible motor Nissan's built since the RB and with more power to boot. The thread on FA.
http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=155087
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Old 09-15-2006, 12:46 PM
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here another article about it
And now the part you have all been waiting for, an engineers look inside the much anticipated VQ35HR, the next generation of VQ engines from Nissan. According to Nissans PR hacks the HR moniker stands for "High Rev" and "High Response". Although this sounds somewhat hokey, it is a lot less dumb sounding than the current top of the line "Rev Up" spec engine. Although some of these specs and rumors have been floating around on various web sites for awhile now, we will add our own analysis to things and explain why certain things are being done and how they work.



Here is what is left of the motor. The dual intake plastic manifold is missing.
There are some differences seen in the specs of the new motor vs the old right off the bat. Nissan claims an increase of 10% in fuel economy and emissions reduction. The compression has been increased from 10.3 to 10.6:1. The power has gone up to 315 hp ps or around 306 hp SAE. The engines redline has been increased to 7500 rpm.

It seems like Nissan is up to something here as this engine is much more beefy inside than previously. In our opinion Nissan is getting ready to subject this engine to turbo boost for the long awaited R35 Skyline GT-R. Here is why we think this.



The stout bed plate block holds' the crank in this stout cage. This should take over 1000 hp no sweat.
The block is much stronger. It uses a bed plate type lower end, much like that what is seen in engines designed specifically for racing like the Cosworth powerplant used in Champ Car racing and others used in F1. A bed plate block is one where the block is split at the crankshaft into an upper and lower portion. The crank is solidly supported by a huge girdle of aluminum solidly bolted to the block at many points instead of individual main caps that most motors have. There is little opportunity for block flex and bearing eating, crank breaking distortion here. This beefy lower end was first seen on the heavy duty VQ40DE motors used in the Pathfinder and Frontier trucks. The crank is beefed up as well featuring the larger rod and main bearing journal diameters of the heavy duty VQ40DE truck engine.. Can you see the future potential for GT-R turbo boost here?

Look at the beef behind the crank. Its way more stout than the VG30 or the VQ35DE. Plenty of journal overlap and bearing area should allow this pup to handle 1000 hp of boost.


The block itself has a taller deck height than the older VQ35DE. This was done to accommodate longer connecting rods. Longer connecting rods improve volumetric efficiency at high rpm by giving more dwell time at TDC. This gives the cylinders more time to fill on the intake stroke, improving high RPM power.

This looks like an old school VG or SR rod. Nissan beef is back. The rod has lots of material and is strong. It should probably be able to take 600 hp stock. See the thick parting line down the middle of the beam? This indicates that its forged or PM, not cast like NICO says.
Longer rods also improve mechanical and combustion efficiency. This is because the combustion event has a longer dwell time to initially push harder on the piston as it travels downward down the piston bore and the connecting rod has less angularity so it will not cause the piston to **** in the bore and dig as hard into the cylinder walls. This puts less stress on the piston and connecting rod as well as reduces friction.

The pistons have some interesting features, mainly an asymmetric shape with a larger skirt area on the thrust side for good support and a cut down skirt on the non thrust side for less friction and less weight. The rods themselves have been beefed up with more meat around the big end and a wider beam. VQ rods have been known to be problematic on higher revving and boosted motors

The pistons most innovative feature is the wide skirt on the thrust side to support the thrust loads better and the narrow skirt on the opposite side for less weight and friction. What a good idea! Soon the aftermarket will copy this.
and this appears to be a good thing, returning to Nissans prior heritage of having near bulletproof rods. The NICO website has reported the rods to be a high pressure casting be we think that is not correct, in photos of the rods the thick parting line of a forging die or a PM (powdered metal forging) die are clearly seen. A cast rod would be inferior to a forged or PM part so we think that NICO is mistaken. The piston ring lands have been hard anodized for better wear and the skirts feature a low friction polymer coating. The dome configuration appears to be little changed form previous VQ variants.

The cylinder heads seem to be an evolution of the current VQ head rather than a revolution like the rest of the engine. The heads have a variable cam timing VTC device on both the intake and exhaust cams with the intake being infinitely variable hydraulic and the exhaust being a two step electromagnetic clutch. This configuration appears to be nearly identical to that found in the current Rev Up spec engine. VTC can control the cams advance, retard and lobe centers but not the actual lift and duration like Honda's VTEC system can. The intake port has a straighter more line of sight direction presumably for better tumble and mixture consistency in the cylinders as well as better flow.

A JDM Nissan diagram showing how the longer rod and the asymmetrical piston skirts work.


Unlike the VQ35DE, which had an open quenchless combustion chamber, the VQ35HR has a pentroof chamber with quench pads on either side of the intake and exhaust valves, much like the older VQ30DE had. This is presumably where the increase in compression ratio came from and should also result in better combustion and less detonation due to higher mixture turbulence and more homogeneousness of the fuel air mixture as the piston hits TDC on the compression stroke. There are rumors that the HR has larger valves but we cannot confirm this.

A big improvement over the VQ35DE, the VQ35HR has a combustion chamber that has two quench pads per cylinder for improved combustion and detonation resistance.


The HR has different camshafts and valvesprings to support the higher revs

The tops of the cam followers are coated with a Diamond Like Coating for maximum reduction in friction.
and the cam followers use a DLC coating which Nissan is quite proud of. Nissan claims that this is the first use of DLC in a production engine. DLC is short for Diamond like coating. DLC coatings have been used for some time in NASCAR and drag racing for cam followers and piston pins to my knowledge and probably other high end motorsports applications for sure. DLC is a thin layer of diamond like carbon which is the hardest and slipperiest stuff known. Nissan credits much of the HR's friction reduction to this coating. The NICO web site has reported that DLC is used in the pistons, this is simply not true. The piston coating is an organic dry lube much like Teflon.

Looking at the front of the engine is interesting. The front cover no longer has an access port for the water pump. This means that changing a water pump is going to take some work. I hope Nissan improved the water pump while they were in there! The rear of the block has the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the VK45 and 56 as well as the VQ40DE, some interesting info for all of you swapaholics out there.



The intake port has a new line of sight layout for better flow and tumble into the cylinder on the intake stroke for better mixing of the fuel air mixture. (photo courtesy of JWT)
The peripherals of the engine have changes for the better as well. The exhaust manifolds are now close to equal length tubular headers! There is probably not much room for improvement by the aftermarket here. The intake manifold is now plastic with a larger plenum and shorter, bigger diameter runners. The plastic is very smooth in the ports which should result in excellent flow. The plastic does not conduct heat well which should mean a cooler intake charge. The most interesting thing is that the plenum now sports dual throttle bodies, dual intake tubes, dual MAF's and dual ram cold air airboxes. Again the aftermarket is going to be hard pressed to find improvement here.

The exhaust manifold is a close to equal length header. It looks very close to the DC header for the 350Z.


The exhaust is a true dual system and sports an X-pipe in the middle. The most powerful aftermarket 350Z exhausts by Stillen and B&B have found that an X pipe really helps improve low end torque with no sacrifices anywhere else. Nissan claims that the new engine sounds good due to the intake and exhaust systems having the same length but we feel that this is due to the X-pipe. The exhaust also features close coupled cats with low thermal mass for quick lite off and a big reduction in emissions. This usually means that the cat monolith is ceramic which has been the cause for a lot of grief with the QR25DE 4 cylinder. The ceramic is brittle and prone to fracture. The engine's VTC sometimes causes a vacuum in the exhaust manifold because it uses cam timing induced exhaust reversion in lieu of an EGR valve. If the cat fails, this can result in the abrasive ceramic getting sucked into the engine. Better hope Nissan has solved some of these problems.

The all plastic intake manifolds most noticeable feature is dual throttle bodies and intake tubes.




The injectors are a multi hole, 50 micron droplet high atomization design for good burn. (photo courtesy of JWT)
The engine also features improved faster warming wide band O2 sensors for better sensing of the A/F ratio. We figure that these are a refinement of the current Bosch technology with a hotter heater, like a Horiba reference sensor. The injectors are multi hole 50 micron spray type for super good atomization. A fine wire iridium center electrode on the plugs helps them get free of fouling from a cold start faster. The cats, O2 sensors, injectors, iridium plugs and dual VTC help the HR get the nearly impossible for a high performance engine, SULEV rating.

The HR engine will be the workhorse engine for the Z in the near future but even better stuff may be coming later. It is a strong, nearly confirmed rumor that the engine used in the upcoming super secret Skyline GT-R will use a twin turbo 3.7 liter version of the HR motor topped with some secret cylinder heads developed by none other than Cosworth. The new Cosworth heads will also feature Nissans VVL technology where lift, duration, lobe centers and advance can be controlled by the engines ECU, much like Honda's I-VTEC system. The turbos will be smog friendly using Cosworth technology that bypasses the turbos during cold start.

From this angle you can see that the motor did have dual intakes at one time.


The rumor mill also states that a 3.7 liter version of HR will be coming for an enthusiast package Z and a very limited production high hp version of the 3.7 with high compression and Cosworth heads, naturally aspirated is on line for the track model. Interchangeability with the VQ40 means that other interesting combos can be made by the tuners. We predict that it will be fairly easy to get up to 4.5 liters from this platform.

The VQ35DE is dead, long live the VQ35HR.
thats from a g35 article at http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/september06/vq35hr/
 
Old 09-15-2006, 01:40 PM
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Nice except that last long is incorrect. The VQ35DE is not dead. In fact I don't think we will see the HR in FWD for another year or two after this.
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Old 09-15-2006, 01:57 PM
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Nice block. GM's newest LS series also uses this "deep skirt" design for increased block strength.

ie...
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Old 09-15-2006, 03:31 PM
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Psshhtt. Listen My 95 maxima started this VQ thing. LONG live the VQ30DE!
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Old 09-15-2006, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Nice block. GM's newest LS series also uses this "deep skirt" design for increased block strength.

ie...
that to me looks less strong than the regular 4bolt main. the main cap bolts are straight up and down where as the old 4 bolt main used to have 2 straight and 2 angled. if its stronger then good, but its nothing like the whole bottom of the block holding in the crank
 
Old 09-15-2006, 03:59 PM
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It's stronger. Hence the post.
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:16 PM
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there must be bolts that come in from the side too
 
Old 09-15-2006, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoooper
here another article about it


thats from a g35 article at http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/september06/vq35hr/

Now that's interesting. Long live Nissan and long live the great motor swap! I smell a VQ40HRTT in my future.

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Old 09-17-2006, 07:13 AM
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C'mon. Don't give in to the displacement race. VQ32HRTT.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:01 AM
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The 3.5L is fine as is. If the STOCK redline is now 7500 it means that thing can certainly handle 8000 as well as the current VQ35DE can handle low 7000's. Why wouldn't they turbo it as is if it's so strong? They could simply stuff a TT version of the VQ35HR in the GT-R and call it a day.

And then, five years from now, we'll be talking about swapping those into our S13's
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JClaw
They could simply stuff a TT version of the VQ35HR in the GT-R and call it a day.
I do believe that's just what they are going to do.

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Old 09-17-2006, 12:34 PM
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i wouldnt be surprised if that happened either, seems like a simple solution and according to that article should be safe. maybe they want a shorter stroke for lower compression to make the turbo application easier and more engine safe
 
Old 09-17-2006, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Fred Allen Burge
I do believe that's just what they are going to do.

Fred
Except rumor has it that the GT-R version of the motor is going to have NEO VVL technology on top of the CVTC on the intake cam and 2-stage VTC on the exhaust.
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Old 09-18-2006, 05:16 AM
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Exactly. Shorter stroke with relatively high compression for a FI motor making for great throttle response and revability.

As much as I'd like to swap in some brand new technology into my car I know it'd be extremely difficult. Motor swaps are becoming increasingly difficult as technology advances and thus requires the swappers to have extremely good knowledge of the electrical systems controlling the motors. Especially as theft deterent systems become more complex. It sucks and I hate to say it but I don't think there will be any more grassroots motor swaps for the next generation. Everyone that wants something crazy is going to have to pay a lot to have it done professionally or go to school for four years to figure it all out.

All that said, I'm fairly sure that I'd like my next project car to be a carbed 427 Shelby Cobra.
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Broaner

As much as I'd like to swap in some brand new technology into my car I know it'd be extremely difficult. Motor swaps are becoming increasingly difficult as technology advances and thus requires the swappers to have extremely good knowledge of the electrical systems controlling the motors. Especially as theft deterent systems become more complex. It sucks and I hate to say it but I don't think there will be any more grassroots motor swaps for the next generation. Everyone that wants something crazy is going to have to pay a lot to have it done professionally or go to school for four years to figure it all out.
I'm pretty sure that's what all the old timers used to say about that crazy new "fool injection" stuff these young new whippersnappers like so much(!).

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Old 09-18-2006, 06:57 AM
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Bless fuel injection. LOL. It seems that every new generation of cars has some extra kick. If it wasn't a variable intake manifold then it was variable cam timing. Now all of a sudden we have 2-stage VTCs. I have to disagree with the complexity issue. People have this blindfold on them that makes them believe that a full 3.5 swap it is extremely difficult, but when I look at all the pin-outs, what is different, what is simular ... it all seems like it is just time consuming and requires dedication. From the little debate thread I opened a while ago, someone provided that fact that 7 of the 9 harnesses were plug and play. Among the ones that just don't line up period (like Drive-by-wire), they are just run as new wires. I am willing to bet that it is possible with a fully intact 3.5 ECU, main harness, and engine harness that you can crank the car and drive (with a manual transmission) without ANY soldering. (Note you will probably have a CEL and have a few options not working).

Please note that I am not saying it is cheap or easy to find fully intact harnesses cause they are usually cut at the junkyard.

My point in all this rant is that it shouldn't be too much extra wiring to get ths new technologies to work.

The main hang is my belief that we will not see a FWD configuation of this engine for a little while (and it may require cutting the hood).
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Old 09-18-2006, 12:16 PM
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Yes, that has all been said. But I'm a whippersnapper and fool injection is the bane of my existence right now. Back in the day anyone with a flathead screwdriver could play around with their carbs. Simple. Easy to get into. Easy to make big power. Now you need a laptop and an EMS to change anything. As a sort of example I'll point out that the B14's were made with a NEO-VVL motor in Japan. How many people swap them in? Maybe I am off base. I just find it sh!tty that we have to worry about our grassroots type hobby dissappearing. Or maybe I truely need to step up to the plate and dive into the frey. Its just that I always find myself not looking forward to the electrical bits involved with automotive work. Motorsport to me is making the car work the way it should. Engineering in suspension geometry takes precedent over power.

Fresh off the press at NPM.
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/september06/vq35hr/
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Old 09-18-2006, 12:18 PM
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Why?..........

Originally Posted by Hoooper
there must be bolts that come in from the side too
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Broaner
Exactly. Shorter stroke with relatively high compression for a FI motor making for great throttle response and revability.
The stroke length (within reason of course) doesn't matter as much as the rod:stroke ratio.
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Old 09-23-2006, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Broaner
Yes, that has all been said. But I'm a whippersnapper and fool injection is the bane of my existence right now. Back in the day anyone with a flathead screwdriver could play around with their carbs. Simple. Easy to get into. Easy to make big power. Now you need a laptop and an EMS to change anything. As a sort of example I'll point out that the B14's were made with a NEO-VVL motor in Japan. How many people swap them in? Maybe I am off base. I just find it sh!tty that we have to worry about our grassroots type hobby dissappearing. Or maybe I truely need to step up to the plate and dive into the frey.
That's I think we should all do if we're serious about it. It just takes time and dedication. I think we'll all be proud and happy we learned it when we're done.
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Old 09-23-2006, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Nice block. GM's newest LS series also uses this "deep skirt" design for increased block strength.

ie...

Man who ever machined those parts needs to change the finishing inserts on his faceing tool cause that finish looks like sh!at
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Old 09-24-2006, 07:07 PM
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Well, after a weekend of trouble free driving and waxing tons of cars I've got a better outlook on fuel injection right now. LOL.
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Old 09-24-2006, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Broaner
Well, after a weekend of trouble free driving and waxing tons of cars I've got a better outlook on fuel injection right now. LOL.
Did you change that knock sensor (and harness)?
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Old 09-29-2006, 07:20 PM
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what about the neo guys?
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Old 09-30-2006, 11:15 PM
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I've heard from a few reputable sources.. that the GT-R's VQ will feature a variable valve lift system.. however, It is NOTHING like Nissan/Honda's current VVL setup.. which uses oil pressure to engage rockers on a shaft, which come into contact with the bigger cam lobes.

The new setup (designed by Cosworth), will feature a gear based system.. While I'm not sure as to the specifics.. I do know that Cosworth has spent almost 2 years developing/testing, and they're WAY over budget for what Nissan intended to spend. Hopefully, it all pans out, and we see a VVL VQ series engine.. Word is, that if it indeed does pan out.. we'll see a N/A version of this engine in future Z/G RWD vehicles. It should be possible to swap the heads to a FWD block.. time will tell.

Travis
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Old 10-01-2006, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by JClaw
Did you change that knock sensor (and harness)?
Yeapers. Took a while for the ECU to realize it was there. The pull the car had went from great to f'ing insane. I was on the way back from Road America and dropped the hammer for a pass. I dropped to third and punched it and nearly snapped my neck. The @ss kicked as I pulled out into the oncoming lane.

Thats some insane technology. Cosworth is a great company. This is very exciting.
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Old 10-01-2006, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Broaner
Yeapers. Took a while for the ECU to realize it was there. The pull the car had went from great to f'ing insane. I was on the way back from Road America and dropped the hammer for a pass. I dropped to third and punched it and nearly snapped my neck. The @ss kicked as I pulled out into the oncoming lane.
Awwww this is eating me from the inside
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Old 10-01-2006, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Broaner
Yeapers. Took a while for the ECU to realize it was there. The pull the car had went from great to f'ing insane. I was on the way back from Road America and dropped the hammer for a pass. I dropped to third and punched it and nearly snapped my neck. The @ss kicked as I pulled out into the oncoming lane.

Thats some insane technology. Cosworth is a great company. This is very exciting.

Hey..

I need some VQ mounts for my S13!

I'm going to put a VQ35 into one, using the CVTC, 02 Maxima 6spd harness/ECU, and the Immob system. Just need some mounts to get "motivated".. hint hint..

Travis
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Old 10-02-2006, 07:44 AM
  #37  
2060lbs and falling...
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Sorry J, I'm trying to be a form of motivation. I know you'll get it sooner or later man.

If you want my old mounts I'll have them up for sale in Early November. I'll be ripping out my entire front suspension and power/drivetrain this winter. The setup of my current mounts will not clear the hood though. If you really still want them you can have 'em for $40 shipped. I'm going to remake mine in solid mounted form. I have another 1/2" to drop down to the crossmember and hopefully that will be enough to clear the Sivlia hood which buldges upward slightly compared to the USDM 240 hood which bows in.

If you really want I might consider making a jig and duplicating a couple sets of mounts. The new set will also involve a new tranny mount in order to move the motor set back another 3/4" toward the rear. Due to the correctness of the new design I'd charge a bit more. Not sure how much exactly. Let me know if you're seriously interested.
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:54 PM
  #38  
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Wasn't it rumored that nissan, among others, would have camless engines by 2009? Damn I wish I could find that article. So you think this things going to burn as much oil as the 4.5's?
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:56 PM
  #39  
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oh yeah, it was valeo who was working on it.... I still can't find the original article I read though, it was much more in-depth and it said nissan was planning on using it by '09
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Old 10-02-2006, 11:12 PM
  #40  
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yeah ive heard of that technology. that also could add a little revability and rev-happiness if the units are built right, no stretching springs, bending valves, flat lobes, cracked sticks.... plus, instead of swapping cams, an ECU flash could get you a bigger cam...
 


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