Typically how many rpms can the 3.0 handle before something breaks?
06-05-2007, 02:53 PM
#1
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Typically how many rpms can the 3.0 handle before something breaks?
Just curious because racing at the track I shifted from 3rd back into 2nd gear(got to love these flimsy shifters+ some crappy driving)and according to my neo I spun the motor up to 9985 rpms.I continued on down the track and the motor ran as if nothing ever happened except when I stopped and it wouldn't idle below 2000 rpms. I have not had the opportunity to figure that issue out yet but I drove the car home from the track and other than keeping my rpms up at the red lights so it wouldn't die it ran perfect. I wonder if something mechanically could have given way hence my question about how many rpms can these motors handle. What is the highest anyone has spun theirs up to and the motor lived?
06-05-2007, 04:07 PM
#2
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there is an indicated redline on the car for a reason. I know you over rev'ed it back accident but if I were you I would be glad I didn't blow the motor. 9985 is alot. At that high of a rev you could have spun a rod bearing bent a valve or a number of other things
06-05-2007, 06:04 PM
#5
Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
What they both said. BTW, this was a race.... would you happen to have a video of this? would love to hear what the VQ sounds like up there at almost 10grand rpm 
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee................ BOOM !
06-05-2007, 08:09 PM
#6
Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
What they both said. BTW, this was a race.... would you happen to have a video of this? would love to hear what the VQ sounds like up there at almost 10grand rpm
Same here.
06-05-2007, 08:51 PM
#8
Originally Posted by nismology
In the 8000 RPM range. Don't know of anyone that rev'd to 9k+ whose motor survived. Compression/leakdown test time.
I did, three times infact. Hit 2nd when going to 4th under WOT near 3rd gear redline three times in the first year or so that I had my old black 96.
That said, seems most people who do this end up thrashing an oil pump, bending valves, trashing a clutch, etc.
06-06-2007, 08:42 AM
#10
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
I did, three times infact. Hit 2nd when going to 4th under WOT near 3rd gear redline three times in the first year or so that I had my old black 96.
That said, seems most people who do this end up thrashing an oil pump, bending valves, trashing a clutch, etc.
That said, seems most people who do this end up thrashing an oil pump, bending valves, trashing a clutch, etc.
lolz
06-06-2007, 11:04 AM
#12
Unless you were shifting at 7500 in 3rd, you did not hit 11,500 rpm in 2nd. My friend did that and the VQ30 was not pleased. It did not idle and the starter/flywheel teeth were stripped, but he did manage to push start it and bring it home.
At the stock 6500 rev limit, the infamous 3rd to 2nd miss shift should not ruin the engine. It may not like you, but it should still run pretty much fine most of the time, as long as you didn't leave it there for more than a split second. As soon as you raise the rev limit all bets are off.
At the stock 6500 rev limit, the infamous 3rd to 2nd miss shift should not ruin the engine. It may not like you, but it should still run pretty much fine most of the time, as long as you didn't leave it there for more than a split second. As soon as you raise the rev limit all bets are off.
06-06-2007, 11:21 AM
#13
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Neal, it makes me feel a little better knowing I'm not the only one that has miss-shifted that badly.What really sucks is I have been working for about 6 months on getting it ready for the weekly street fights they have up at Bristol Dragway.I pulled this lil' stunt on my very 1st run.Talk about a swift kick in the groin! Needless to say my night ended early.I guess I might be throwing the extra motor I have in the garage in sooner than I thought although I'm still not convinced that this motor is dead yet.One thing that happened I didn't mention was that the starter wouldn't engage the flywheel.after I got it home dropped the tranny and inspected the clutch and flywheel for and damage.Not finding anything wrong or broken except for my shifter fork retaining spring popped off I threw it back together installed an extra starter I had laying around that I new was good and still had the same problem.Starter spins but it staysin the housing instead of extending to the flywheel.Maybe it's just something electrical.don't know but I do know that I am Very impress with thislittle motor as far as how much tolerance this thing has stock for the abuse it gets!
06-06-2007, 11:29 AM
#14
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95 Blkmax. It isn't a sound you want to hear. The only sound you would have probable heard over everything else is my billfold crying because anytime I do something stupid like this it is always and expensive fix !
06-06-2007, 11:53 AM
#15
Originally Posted by cw96
95 Blkmax. It isn't a sound you want to hear. The only sound you would have probable heard over everything else is my billfold crying because anytime I do something stupid like this it is always and expensive fix !
I'd recommend you stiffen the heck out of your drivetrain. If you dont have urethane motor mounts and x-member bushings, GET THEM. They make a massive difference in the overall feel of the drivetrain. Shifter feels more accurate since the tranny isnt moving around as much.
06-06-2007, 03:28 PM
#16
Yeah it's really violent when you do it under WOT/redline conditions when you're trying to shift as quickly as possible. I've never missed a shift at the track, ever (knock on wood) but I've done it while running someone on the highway and it is unbelievably loud and just about gives you whiplash from the deceleration and the fact that you were expecting one thing and end up with exactly the opposite.
MikeD did this while racing someone on the highway once and bent a few valves in his motor. It still ran, but it didn't run right, so he had to yank it.
MikeD did this while racing someone on the highway once and bent a few valves in his motor. It still ran, but it didn't run right, so he had to yank it.
06-06-2007, 06:27 PM
#17
Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
What they both said. BTW, this was a race.... would you happen to have a video of this? would love to hear what the VQ sounds like up there at almost 10grand rpm
06-06-2007, 06:34 PM
#18
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This may be OT
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?
06-06-2007, 06:48 PM
#19
Originally Posted by VQuick
I revved mine up to probably 8 or 8.5 in neutral (so the rev limiter didn't have time to kick in) and trust me, it did not sound good. It sounded like I was hurting the engine.
06-06-2007, 08:10 PM
#22
Originally Posted by NmexMAX
Unless you have some type of fuel cut defeat/rev limiter defeat, you're lying.
06-06-2007, 08:14 PM
#23
Originally Posted by VQuick
Well, the tachometer was up above 8K and the pitch of the engine went up commensurate with the tach needle. The manual flywheel is a lot lighter than the automatic flywheel so it can zip up really fast in neutral. Can anyone with a 5-speed back me up?
Unless you mis-shifted, it's not possible w/ stock software. Ok,
.. Can someone back ME up 
Sigh: ... digress we will. Or not 
06-06-2007, 08:42 PM
#24
Originally Posted by VQuick
I revved mine up to probably 8 or 8.5 in neutral (so the rev limiter didn't have time to kick in) and trust me, it did not sound good. It sounded like I was hurting the engine.
You're going to have to explain in detail how you took a stock Nissan ECU and made it rev that high.
06-06-2007, 09:27 PM
#26
I have a 5spd, used the same stock flywheel on both the 3.0 and this 3.5, the highest its ever gone (according to my SAFC) is 6572rpm, and that was bouncing off the rev limiter. So unless your ECU has SOMETHING done to it, 8k rpm on a stock ECU is not happening. Are you the original owner of the car? If you bought it used, maybe the previous owner did something and never informed you.
A stock ECU is simply NOT going to let you rev that high.
PS- Autos dont have flywheels, they have flexplates.... which weigh no more than 5-6 lbs, lol. Stock 5spd flywheel is 19lbs, 21lbs if the timing ring is bolted up AFAIK.
A stock ECU is simply NOT going to let you rev that high.
PS- Autos dont have flywheels, they have flexplates.... which weigh no more than 5-6 lbs, lol. Stock 5spd flywheel is 19lbs, 21lbs if the timing ring is bolted up AFAIK.
06-06-2007, 10:29 PM
#27
I'm sure the previous owner hadn't modified the ECU. I guess I'll have to try this again next time I think of it. So you guys are implying that the ECU can cut fuel fast enough to prevent overrevving even if I floor the accelerator in neutral? And thus the only possible way to overrev is by mechanically forcing the engine to those high speeds due to an accidental downshift?
95BLK, I know autos don't have the same parts but the bottom line is if you rev a stock auto Max in neutral and compare it to revving a stock manual Max in neutral, the manual will rev significantly faster. That was what I was getting at.
BTW, I can't find any reference to the rev limiter in the FSM. There is mention of a engine speed/revolution sensor in the EC section, but no indication of how it works or what the limit is. Where should I be looking?
95BLK, I know autos don't have the same parts but the bottom line is if you rev a stock auto Max in neutral and compare it to revving a stock manual Max in neutral, the manual will rev significantly faster. That was what I was getting at.
BTW, I can't find any reference to the rev limiter in the FSM. There is mention of a engine speed/revolution sensor in the EC section, but no indication of how it works or what the limit is. Where should I be looking?
06-07-2007, 06:46 AM
#28
Originally Posted by VQuick
So you guys are implying that the ECU can cut fuel fast enough to prevent overrevving even if I floor the accelerator in neutral? And thus the only possible way to overrev is by mechanically forcing the engine to those high speeds due to an accidental downshift?
95BLK, I know autos don't have the same parts but the bottom line is if you rev a stock auto Max in neutral and compare it to revving a stock manual Max in neutral, the manual will rev significantly faster. That was what I was getting at.
BTW, I can't find any reference to the rev limiter in the FSM. There is mention of a engine speed/revolution sensor in the EC section, but no indication of how it works or what the limit is. Where should I be looking?
95BLK, I know autos don't have the same parts but the bottom line is if you rev a stock auto Max in neutral and compare it to revving a stock manual Max in neutral, the manual will rev significantly faster. That was what I was getting at.
BTW, I can't find any reference to the rev limiter in the FSM. There is mention of a engine speed/revolution sensor in the EC section, but no indication of how it works or what the limit is. Where should I be looking?
I can floor the pedal in Neutral and let the ECU cut off the engine - the tach needle usually flops up higher, but I have three MSD 8969 units connected and the one in the cabin reports 6600 or 6700 when the engine hits fuel-cut. That is controlled by the stock ECU and cuts fuel by shortening up the injector pulses to a much shorter time - doesn't completely cut off fuel, but your engine loses all power at that point.
The lighter the flywheel, the quicker the engine revs up. Autos have lighter "flywheels". Before I leave for the strip, while sitting on the trailer, I will floor the engine and let it bounce off the limiter a couple of times. Makes me feel better.....
P.S = Somewhere in my All Motor OBX header thread is some photos of the rear of a '99 automatic engine, showing the flex plate attached. Actually, there may be two of those in one photo - one on a stand.....
06-07-2007, 08:01 AM
#29
Well, that sounds likw what I experienced. The tach needle was definitely above redline and the engine sounded very strange, which I'm now realizing was probably because of the reduced fuel and shortened injector pulses. I still suspect that it's possible to make the engine spin faster than 6650 in neutral even though the fuel is reduced promptly at that point. Thanks for the info everyone; sorry for the ignorance. I never claimed to be above redline making power, I was just describing the sound.
06-07-2007, 08:08 AM
#30
If you'd like to know exactly how the rev limit works, look at page 48 and 49 in my EU writeup. It describes what the stock ECU does and has a screenshot showing a datalog of a rev limit bounce. 
06-07-2007, 08:23 AM
#31
Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
PS- Autos dont have flywheels, they have flexplates.... which weigh no more than 5-6 lbs, lol. Stock 5spd flywheel is 19lbs, 21lbs if the timing ring is bolted up AFAIK.
06-07-2007, 08:28 AM
#32
Originally Posted by VQuick
So you guys are implying that the ECU can cut fuel fast enough to prevent overrevving even if I floor the accelerator in neutral? And thus the only possible way to overrev is by mechanically forcing the engine to those high speeds due to an accidental downshift?
06-07-2007, 09:00 AM
#33
I did the same thing everybody is talking about.. on my last trip to the track, I had a grat great launch.... went from 1st to 2nd... then from 2nd to what I thought was third... the moment I threw it in gear and I let off the clutch the car SCREEEAAAMED!!!
I had shifted into 1st but luckily I didnt let off the clutch eniterly so I had managed to push the clutch pedal back in. I dont really know how high my rpms hit but I do know it completely blew the clutch and the 1st gear synchro or gear. A coupe of days later, the tranny had a loud whining noise and I ended up lossing 4th gear too.
I just remember the car feeling like it was anchored down... ya know.. like when a dog is chained up and he runs after something and the chain pulls him back suddenly. It was the worst feeling and the scariest thing I've done to my car.... I remember coasting down the track and for a brief moment being depressed, like "Dam!! thats the end of the MAxx.."
I had shifted into 1st but luckily I didnt let off the clutch eniterly so I had managed to push the clutch pedal back in. I dont really know how high my rpms hit but I do know it completely blew the clutch and the 1st gear synchro or gear. A coupe of days later, the tranny had a loud whining noise and I ended up lossing 4th gear too.
I just remember the car feeling like it was anchored down... ya know.. like when a dog is chained up and he runs after something and the chain pulls him back suddenly. It was the worst feeling and the scariest thing I've done to my car.... I remember coasting down the track and for a brief moment being depressed, like "Dam!! thats the end of the MAxx.."
06-07-2007, 09:54 AM
#34
Originally Posted by 915Max
I did the same thing everybody is talking about.. on my last trip to the track, I had a grat great launch.... went from 1st to 2nd... then from 2nd to what I thought was third... the moment I threw it in gear and I let off the clutch the car SCREEEAAAMED!!!
I had shifted into 1st but luckily I didnt let off the clutch eniterly so I had managed to push the clutch pedal back in. I dont really know how high my rpms hit but I do know it completely blew the clutch and the 1st gear synchro or gear. A coupe of days later, the tranny had a loud whining noise and I ended up lossing 4th gear too.
I just remember the car feeling like it was anchored down... ya know.. like when a dog is chained up and he runs after something and the chain pulls him back suddenly. It was the worst feeling and the scaring thing I've dont to my car.... I remember coasting down the track and for a brief moment being depressed, like "Dam!! thats the end of the MAxx.."
I had shifted into 1st but luckily I didnt let off the clutch eniterly so I had managed to push the clutch pedal back in. I dont really know how high my rpms hit but I do know it completely blew the clutch and the 1st gear synchro or gear. A coupe of days later, the tranny had a loud whining noise and I ended up lossing 4th gear too.
I just remember the car feeling like it was anchored down... ya know.. like when a dog is chained up and he runs after something and the chain pulls him back suddenly. It was the worst feeling and the scaring thing I've dont to my car.... I remember coasting down the track and for a brief moment being depressed, like "Dam!! thats the end of the MAxx.."
funny, my 1st gear doesnt kick in unless i'm going less than 10mph.
06-07-2007, 01:37 PM
#35
yea seriously, how do you guys jam it into 1st gear? I could get it into 1st gear at 15mph the highest, and thats with an ubber perfect revmatch. If I dont ubber percise rev-match or im goin over 15mpg forget it, feels like its being "gated out", like going 5th to Reverse.
06-07-2007, 04:01 PM
#36
I think it's a matter of shifting really hard because of accerating really hard...just a psychological thing. But even with a stock height shifter it's got to be very difficult to get into 1st at 55 MPH.
06-07-2007, 04:12 PM
#37
I popped it into 1st going at least 67-70mph.. I didnt see but thats the around the speed i'm always at when I'm hitting 6200-6500rpm's. I dont know how I did it.. it might have been by strength, but I'm thinking it could have been my synchro's already giving out... before the drags, I was getting a wierd feel and I would notice that when I would remove my hand from the shifter and acclerate, the shifter would move back a lot, like if it was trying to pop out of gear.. but it never would.
06-07-2007, 05:24 PM
#38
Anyone could get it in 1st at that speed if they really jammed on it like you would do if you were trying to hit 3rd really fast. The fact that he has a 98 helps too - double 1st gear synchro as opposed to single.
06-10-2007, 08:14 AM
#39
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
I did, three times infact. Hit 2nd when going to 4th under WOT near 3rd gear redline three times in the first year or so that I had my old black 96.
Car still runs, but I'm still trying to figure out if I have done something or not. Car pulls the same, but one time it was late at night not a soul to be found so I decided to just hammer it. I hit 118 and the car acted like it had a govenor on it. I know I have gotten to 125 before without a problem, now hitting 118 the car just stops and sounds like I'm hitting the rev limit.
Scared the crap out of me. I'm not sure to this day if it's from the missed shift or if my TS ECU has a speed limiter on it or something.
06-16-2007, 08:05 PM
#40
Yeah i dont know how you guys can get it into first when going faster then 35-40MPH. Well for hte 95-96 guys, i remember when i had my original tranny in my car, i could, but it didnt like going in, this tranny ihave now is from a 96, and it will go into first at about 25-30mph, if i rev match it, but other then that, its hard, you really gotta force it. When its cold, it wont even go into first when the car is going any faster then 5mph..this is on new synchros too lol..
Anyways, dont feel bad, ive accidently missed 4th...its like i hit the shift gate or something, because it doesnt go into gear, its like you just hit a lock out or something, i guess its cuz im in between 2nd and 4th. Never actually done it racing yet, but i have missed 1-2 shift a couple of times..tried to shift a little to fast lol..
Anyways, dont feel bad, ive accidently missed 4th...its like i hit the shift gate or something, because it doesnt go into gear, its like you just hit a lock out or something, i guess its cuz im in between 2nd and 4th. Never actually done it racing yet, but i have missed 1-2 shift a couple of times..tried to shift a little to fast lol..