I just finished my first timing and A/F map. Opinions on how it looks and where to go. The A/F needs to be leveled off after the timing adjustments. I was shooting for a 12.5 average. I'll be slowly increasing timing to see how far I can take it without knock and then move on to a 13 and 13.5 A/F map. My goals is to have three maps to dyno and then see which makes the most power. Does that sound like a reasonable plan of action.

Thoughts?

 

which program is that your using to data log timing and advance it?

 

My secret weapon










UTEC

 

Sweet. Someone finally decided to try this thing.

In my experience, the most NA power is usualy made between 13.0-14.0

 

Maybe try reversing this scenario, i.e, get to 13.5, then add timing. And see what that does as well. As you know, those 2 parameters both affect spark knock, so, you might find a threshold between the 2 if you use the method I suggested.

Are you still using Cipher to data log?

Caught the hints early on. http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...5&postcount=49

 

Nice! 1st time I know of the UTEC being used on a Max. My friend has it on his 350Z and that thing can tell you anything from engine temp to when the driver sneezes, lol.

I'd have to agree with NMexMax's method. At least on the VQ, like SR20DEN says, 13.0-14.0 is where it makes the most power with a/f tuning alone, so I just just tune to 13.5 the whole way. And you're ignition timing is quite mild for what you engine can take. I'd try increasing 2* per run until you find timing getting pulled for w/e reason. Dial back 2* and keep it there. That's WHAT I WOULD DO. You do as you please of course.

Keep us updated! Cant wait for some more logged #s out of this car

 

Good data. Got a mod list or initial dynos yet? Just curious.

 

Nice to see a 6th gen use the UTEC!

I think you'll want timing somewhere in the mid 30's by redline, and AFR around 12.8-13.2. That's with 93/94 octane though.

In my experience going from 13.0 to 13.5 AFR gains you very little. I prefer to keep the AFR a little bit richer to provide some safety for running higher timing, and to compensate on hotter days etc. That's where you'll make most of your power, from timing. I wouldn't be too concerned about a few points of AF, especially initially. Get the timing optimized first and then adjust the AF to suit (ie lean enough but allowing a bit of safety factor).

In general this can sometimes be a bit of an iterative process, eg if the car wants to knock before maxing out power when adjusting timing, then try richening it up and see if it eliminates the knock and allows further timing advance. However, I think you'll find with the VQ knock won't be a problem on decent octane and you'll hit the optimal timing point first, then you can lean the AF out a bit farther if it provides gains and doesn't knock.

 

That's what my thoughts where and precisely why I started with a 12.5 A/F. Alot of the Z guys say the timing is where the powers at. I'm very cautious though as I can't afford to blow this up. I will be increasing timing by 1 degree until I get a hit. I'm trying to make it out tonight but certainly by Monday I'll have played some more.

 

I wouldn't get too concerned about the timing, I have gone as high as +40 with no ill effects. However I have found that around +35 is the optimal for HP. As far as a/f I run 12.5 as I haven't found any power increase having it higher.

If I can get a new engine blowing it up on nitrous you shouldn't have any trouble. Just make sure all the hardware is removed for warranty work.

 

It's not just Z guys. On any internal combustion engine, timing is what makes power. Air fuel ratio's effect on power is minimal compared to that of timing. You want to make power, set your AFR at something safe and then start advancing the timing.

 

The reason so many people put such emphasis on a/f tuning is that the average maxima owner is using a basic AFC to control it based on MAF conditioning. When you have seperate control of timing and a/f it doesn't matter nearly as much.

 

Though it would depend on the mechanism that is used to alter/control said parameters.

 

What are your guy's thoughts on the UTEC vs EU?

 

UTEC spanks the EU!

 

I'll just have to dissagree with that untill I see proof.


Just because the UTEC has a built in patch harness doesn't make it a better unit overall.

 

The harness is definitely a bonus but it's more than that. The open loop fueling combined with hard timing control is the biggest benefit. In this configuration it's pretty much a stand alone engine managment system taking full control of the vehicle. Then add in the temperature adjustments for fuel and timing seperatly, the ability to tune speed density with pulse width modulation. EU is nice, but doesn't touch the UTEC as far as I'm concerned.

 

The EU has all of that.

One plus for the UTEC is the open loop control though, where it doesn't piggyback the stock ECU but takes over.

The EU can be made to work on any generation vehicle easily though.

 

Can you elaborate a bit on this? What's the advantage of having this feature?

 

Control but mostly consistency. When the UTEC is in open loop mode, whatever you enter for IPW's and Timing is what it directly will output via its own drivers while it ignores the stock ECU signals. It's operating like a standalone. But with the EU it's always an adjustment on top of the stock signal, (although it can at least be directly and not via MAF conditioning). So if for some reason the stock ECU changes the output, the EU will also be offset by the same value.

However, if we're talking about WOT tuning I haven't found this to be much of an issue, at least on the 4th gen ECU. The stock ECU tune seems to be very consistent as long as your fluid temps are kept in the right range, the ECU doesn't adjust much. Dunno about the 5.5th/6th gen ones, not having had the chance to tune them, but I imagine it wouldn't be too much different.

That aside, the EU has several pluses compared to the UTEC. More load points in the maps, and MUCH better software for starters. I can't believe TurboXS used Hyper Terminal.

 

And with the VQ35, when you piggyback the AFR, you're not just manipulating the ignition timing, but also the VTC maps. But in my experience it looks to be more of a fight than trying to manipulate.
If the UTEC can directly alter the VTC, Ignition timing and the AFR in one unit, that does make it for it. With the EU, you need to spend another $500 on the Vmanage to get direct VTC control.

 

I'm assuming you meant the VTC maps get affected via doing AFR with MAF conditioning...

Last I knew though, the UTEC cannot control VTC's, unless there's a recent development I'm not aware of (haven't kept up with it since last year really). Then the EU + V-manage would become attractive for about the same price as a UTEC+Tuner module needed for the WBO2 input.

From Forged Internals:
UTEC + Tuner module = $1337
EU (incl harness) = $598

From Mohdparts:
V-Manage = $479 (Evo kit listed)

 

That's assuming of course that you're using MAF signal conditioning to get the desired AFR. With the EU you can do this by directly manipulating the IPW so I don't think that issue would apply.

Edit: DandyMax beat me to it...

 

Well that settles that. I think it's great that someone is finally trying the UTEC, and I didn't want to give the impression of establishing a clear winner untill we had all of the facts on the table.

 

This doesn't apply to A32/A33 ECU's but with A33B and A34 ECU's the EU tends to make the car run rich at idle and part throttle even when no fuel corrections are being made. You can either dial this out via the injector adjustment map or buy the injector adapter #2 for about $25 and completely eliminate the issue from the start (what I'd do).

 

From all the research I've done the UTEC is a better device than then EU. Can you justify the additional cost that's up to the individual. VTC control is not currently used however they have the ability to add it from what I hear. I think the testament is that on vehicles that don't run standalones(HKS most notably) the ratio of UTEC to EU is substantial. 5 seperate maps, direct logging of the Nissan ECU, No worries of the ECU tuning out your adjustments(important on an A34), and hard timing & IPW control. It can't be beat to me. The EU to my understanding only alters the stock signals up or down which off coarse can be tuned out or thrown off by the stock ECU. With the UTEC I can set the actual degree of timing and the actual injector pulse in ms. It really can be used as a stand alone in all respects, just with less functionality than a F-CON(which is like 3k installed).

Anyways, I'm going out tonight after a crazy fun weekend and will aggresively advance the timing and see how far I can get it up in three or four runs.

 

UTEC vs EU, for A33B and older ECU's, EU >. But for you A34's and newer, Seems as if the UTEC is the easiest, not cheapest way to do it.

 

That's not a bad hypothesis ^^^^


IMO 5 maps is not that big a deal, most people will use 2 at most for the majority of situations. The EU can easily flip between an infinite # of maps with the laptop hooked up. As for the standalone type control, the lack of it on the EU is not a real handicap for the A32/A33 at least, those stock ECU's do not change much under WOT. It's a static table tune, so the piggyback is pretty consistent. The EU can at least directly adjust timing and IPW without needing MAF conditioning. Now for A34's, the situation may be different, and as Nmex said, given the ease of install with the harness etc, the UTEC might be better on that gen, but it costs more.


Once you weigh all the pros and cons of each, personally, I don't think I'd say one or the other is better PERIOD. I'd say they each have certain strengths and weaknesses in different areas that will become more or less important depending on the application, the features you want and the budget you have. *cough 2-step* lol. j/k

One thing is certain, either one is light years ahead of the cookie cutter JWT and TS ECU's we used to have as the only choice. Props to you for trying the UTEC though, I was wondering when somebody in a 6th gen was going to do it.

 

My only problem is that the speed limiter is still intact which will necessatate a reflash.

 

Does the UTEC have a two step? I'll be installing a UTEC on a 350z in the next few weeks btw.

 

EDIT 07/06/12- graph deleted as it presented information that was misleading.

It appears now that the knock sensor was pulling timing to compensate for what the EU had added. With as little as +5 degrees over stock, the ecu was pulling the timing back to a stock level.

The fact that this was occuring on a cold November evening now makes me question the quality of the 91 fuel at my local Esso station.

 

I don't like the look of it...

 

That's why I love the UTEC. You set BTDC and away you go. I made a few more runs tonight and will post the results once I sort out the data from excel. I had a few trouble spots with knocking and had to start dumping fuel but I'm sure I'll get it ironed out soon enough.

 

I bumped the timing two degrees across the board but was having some issues with knock at shifting. I'm looking into it more because it seems to be okay otherwise. It certainly pulls alot harder with more timing, god I hate torque steer.

 

Might as well delete this post after Dave's update.

 

After using the A32 ECU and EU I found Dave's charts a little disappointing because the A32 accepts timing very well. So I decided to see if my A33b reacted the same way as his.

I went out first and tried no advance, +10, +15, and +20 and got worse results than Dave did. I believe my ks is toast because it is reacting the same way it did a couple of years ago on my 2k2 with the ks disconnected.

Then I came home and dug out a 470k ohm resistor for the ks and went out again. This is with 15 deg added but I also tried 10 and 20. At +20 added I had to shut it down the knock was very evident which is strange because I have ran +20 added which resulted in +41-43 total on the old A32 ECU with no knock.

So it appears as though the ks is pulling the timing but I will do a little more testing after I get another ks and maybe try desensitizing it to try and get a better picture of how it is reacting.


So now that I know I didn't mess up by swapping the ECU I will start tuning and hopefully make it to track this weekend. 35 deg was the optimum I found last year on the A32 ECU so I'm assuming it will be the same with the A33b.

 

I removed the graph and statements from my post#31 as it presented information which now has been determined to be misleading.

My knock sensor was indeed pulling the timing back to a stock level despite the sub 35 degree weather and 91 (supposedly) fuel in the tank.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions before all the facts were in.

 

Well thanks for the update, this is actually good news. I was quite surprised the A33B would behave so radically (if in fact it really would have been doing so).

 

Seriously, what a relief. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

For $319 Boomslang makes a P-N-P 350Z EU harness, which should work on 6Gs or could with minor changes that Boomslang would adapt.

http://www.boomslang.us/ultimate.htm

Anyone got any good 350Z UTEC links? I need to do some reading...