? Good cams for a 3.5 build ?

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08-08-2007, 10:36 AM

#41

DandyMax

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

Haven't heard of buckets having to be replaced with most aftermarket cams for the VQ including the JWT S1's and Nismo R-tunes (and their respective knock-off versions). Come to think of it, only tomei cams have had incidents of improper valve clearance.

I highly doubt that any of the people here that have installed cams bothered to check valve clearances so you're already ahead of the game.

Yeah I'd check them anyways Grey. Although you're not likely to need to swap buckets given the billets those cams are ground on IMO that's no excuse not to check. I know of at least one person with the S1 knockoffs who did check clearances... and I certainly would even if I expected them to be good.

08-08-2007, 11:14 AM

#42

MaxBlack97

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

+1, I didn't check and mine is fine (knock on wood)

08-08-2007, 11:30 AM

#43

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Certainly I'll check valve lash after the cams are laid in place. I'm glad to hear from folks here that cams are being built so close to factory specs - thanks to everyone for the feedback. Makes me feel better.

I'll photgraph the install so I can annoy the forum folks with yet another batch of installation photographs. Heh.

I can't remember that last time I ran the valves on an engine - probably around 1970. Scary, huh?

I just "won" a set of the JDM cams off Flea-Bay - my "offer" was accepted a little earlier today. Yeah! Now for those Snap-On torque wrenches...
.

08-12-2007, 07:36 PM

#44

grey99max

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Got the cams and spacers - something funny ??

Over the weekend I received the full set of the JDM cams and Stephen Max's cam adapters. I have attached photos of the cams and adapters, and a couple of Tavarish's famous photos of his 3.5 swap, showing the cam ends.

My question is about the construction of the new cams - they seem to have just one pin on the end of each cam, and no holes on any end.

Cams:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2285.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2293.jpg

Cam ends:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2286.jpg

Stephen's adapters - should be familiar:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2295.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2296.jpg

And finally the 3.5 swap photos showing the ends of the OEM 3.5 cams:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...p/swap2003.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...p/swap2007.jpg

Notice that the new cams have one pin each, and no holes? And that Stephen's adapters expect a hole on the intake cam (I believe)... There seems to be one larger hole on each OEM intake that may match the adapter, but not on the JDM cam.

Big question - how can I adapt these performance cams into my 3.5, using Stephen's adapters? Or is this possible? Or am I missing something obvious, like pulling pins from intake cams ??? The exhaust cams seem do-able...

08-12-2007, 08:15 PM

#45

nismology

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I see holes on the new cams.

08-12-2007, 08:27 PM

#46

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

I see holes on the new cams.

Er, no, there's "dimples" in a couple of cams, but no holes. Crappy flash photos.

Here's all the photos I took.. I'll take more tomorrow if needed,

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2287.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2286.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2285.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2284.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...3/Dscn2293.jpg

Stephen's adapters have one flat disk with one hole, and one flat disk with a short stud on one side and a long stud on the other side - apparently for the intake cam. The picture of the OEM intake cam just has two holes - no stud. I wonder if that intake-cam stud needs to come out ??

08-13-2007, 01:12 PM

#47

vipervadim

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hehe, piece of cake

you have two sets of cams..

lay them out, you will have two Longer and two Shorter cams

One of each pairs of cams has a Long and Short Dowel pin.
The longer dowel pin is in the exhaust cams. leave them alone, they will be reused..
the shorter (intake cam) dowel pins will need to be removed and (180deg) cam adapters installed in their holes. (will have super long pins)

I love your dedication grey99max, there should be more people having our kind of fun..
keep on tuning bro, will definitely look for the results

08-13-2007, 01:34 PM

#48

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vipervadim

Thanks, viper ! That's what I was seeing, too. The long pair of cams goes on the 2-4-6 cylinder bank. The shorter pair is the 1-3-5 bank. Stephen's adapters work as-is on the exhaust cams, but I was worried about the intake cams - thanks for the confirmation on pulling out the pins on the intake cams. Are there any tricks needed to do that, or can the pins be pulled like teeth ??

I would rather ask questions than scr*w up something.

And I am worried about you if you like this kind of fun !

08-13-2007, 06:34 PM

#49

grey99max

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Better photos of cams and spacers - in daylight.

08-13-2007, 06:45 PM

#50

DandyMax

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Do you have any more pictures Harry? That wasn't enough to get a good view...

j/k

What timing did you order?

08-13-2007, 07:27 PM

#51

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Do you have any more pictures Harry? That wasn't enough to get a good view...

j/k

What timing did you order?

OK -so I believe in lots of pixs - you never know what might be useful....

The standard +2 degree JDM eBay cams are MINE . Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha ha....... Sorry.

I just need to figure out how to pull out the dowel pins from the intake cams.

08-13-2007, 08:48 PM

#52

DandyMax

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So you got the S1 knockoffs, and via the adapters left the timing as if you were just dropping them right in the full 3.5 (ie resultant centerlines 123/112)... correct?

08-14-2007, 01:26 PM

#53

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

So you got the S1 knockoffs, and via the adapters left the timing as if you were just dropping them right in the full 3.5 (ie resultant centerlines 123/112)... correct?

Yes.......

08-14-2007, 01:41 PM

#54

nismology

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

So you got the S1 knockoffs, and via the adapters left the timing as if you were just dropping them right in the full 3.5 (ie resultant centerlines 123/112)... correct?

Where'd the 123 number come from?

08-14-2007, 03:00 PM

#55

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

Where'd the 123 number come from?

The S1 knockoffs are already advanced 2* on the intake relative to stock VQ35.

08-14-2007, 03:33 PM

#56

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

The S1 knockoffs are already advanced 2* on the intake relative to stock VQ35.

Yea I understand that, but the default timing that stephen max dials in for the stock cams has the intake centerline @ 118° ATDC according to my calculations. That would put these cams @ 120° ATDC centerline. My calculations are based on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

Ok so he (tilley) based it on lobe separation angle.

LSA = (intake centerline + exhaust centerline) / 2.

The stock 3.0 cams have a LSA of 113*. In order for the 3.5 cams to have a LSA of 113* the intake centerline needs to be 114* ATDC since the exhaust centerline is 112* BTDC. According to my calculations (assuming of course that these cams have symmetrical cam lobe profiles which i highly suspect) this results in an intake valve closing of 53* ABDC and 13* of overlap.

SM dialed the cam timing in (with the stock 3.5 cams) so that the intake valves would close @ 49° ABDC like the 95-99 cams. Based on tilley's method (LSA being the same as 3.0 cams) having the IV close @ 53°, i just added four to the intake centerline calculated above to get 118°. That would put these knock-offs @ 120° centerline, no?

Just sayin'...

08-14-2007, 04:22 PM

#57

DandyMax

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Based on recent discussions I've had with StephenMax his "standard" adapter timing for 3.5 intake cams with 3.0 timing equipment is not 118 (at least not currently).

Stock 3.5 intake cams at a centerline of 118 puts the intake closing at 57* ABDC. But you said 49*.... if it's 49 then the centerline is 110...

But regardless, my interpretation of what Grey said above was that he wanted the knockoffs set as if they were just going in a 3.5 without adapters, (ie to retain their intended timing, which would put them at 123/112). Which is why I asked him to confirm that, since I was curious what timing he decided on.

08-14-2007, 05:02 PM

#58

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

To be honest, I expected the adapters to work with a standard set of 3.5 cams. The cams I bought advertised a 2* advance. Since I'm ignorant of the advantages or disadvantages of this amount of cam advance, I shall find out what it does when it runs - then if too slow, I'll spray it. Heck, I'll spray it anyway... I have three stages looking for a home.

Any comments on the construction of the SM adapters? The threaded dowels seem well-pinned, but I was surprised by the threads, and the use of an allen-head set screw for the short pin on the intake. Is this new ? They look plenty strong....

Any suggestions on how to safely remove the existing cam pins? Heat the cam and chill the pins?
. details from eBay:

Description

************** BRAND NEW *************

This is a Brand New set of JDM Performance Camshafts (4 pcs / 2 Intake Camshafts + 2 Exhaust Camshafts) *** For Nissan 350Z 3.5L 02-03 + Infiniti G35 Coupe/Sedan 3.5L 02-03 / All VQ35DE Engine *** Imported Direct from JAPAN *** Computer Designed for Accurate Lift Duration / Ground from Solid BILLET Cores *** Increase HP Over Wide Rev.Range & Keep the Low End Torque + Increased Mid-Range and Top-End Power *** Designed for Street & Ocassional Track Use *** These Parts are not Warranted or Covered by NISSAN or by the Manufacturer & Seller (Due to the Nature of this Product) *** Please Do Not Place Bids or Purchase this Item if you are not awared of above Conditions *** Professional Installation Required Unless you are a ASE Certified Mechanic / This is not a DIY Products *** Careless or Error Installation will Caused Severed Engine Damage *** USE Factory Service Manual for Installation Instructions *** 16HP + Performance Guaranteed *** You Save $400.00 + as Compared to NISMO R-TUNE or JWT Camshafts *** Use the Savings towards Installation *** Limited Qty's / Don't Pass this Special Offer !!!

CAMSHAFTS SPEC:

260 Degrees Duration / .428" (10.9MM) Lift (Intake Cam.Advanced 2 Degrees)

Cold Valve Lash .010-.013" on Intake & Exhaust

Required to Use Stock Valve Springs

Special Notes:

Might Require the Idle RPM set at 850RPM to Prevent Possible Stalling @ Idle

For 2004+ LEV II VQ35DE Engine *** DO NOT ADJUST IDLE *** 350Z LEV II 10/03 / G35 6/03

*** Please do more Research on Related Camshafts for Reference before Placing Bids !!!

Please Visit this Link for Related Discussion on these Cams:

http://www.nissanclub.com/forums/sho...&page=15&pp=15

08-14-2007, 05:47 PM

#59

DandyMax

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Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

No need to go that far, they're not that tight a fit. Just take a small center punch and carefully tap the dowel pin out. Support the cam while you do it and hit the dowel pin not the flange (goes without saying). Also, if necessary, make sure to clean up any burrs/debris caught near the base of the set screws. When you bolt the sprockets to adapters to cam journal ends you want everything seating perfectly flush together. If that doesn't happen you won't get the full contact area you need. Just a precaution. Also, make sure you get those sprockets torqued properly, or you're asking for dowel pin failure.

Oh and you may want to check with Stephen what your timing actually is (what did you ask him for?) It's a bit hard to tell from your pics, but it looks like the pins are set at 180* apart to me, which means your timing would be as advertised on the cams (ie 123/112)

08-14-2007, 10:07 PM

#60

nismology

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

You're right. I should have subtracted from the centerline instead of adding to it. Should be 110°.

Quote:

But regardless, my interpretation of what Grey said above was that he wanted the knockoffs set as if they were just going in a 3.5 without adapters, (ie to retain their intended timing, which would put them at 123/112). Which is why I asked him to confirm that, since I was curious what timing he decided on.

Gotcha.

I didn't know he had requested "fully retarded" cam timing.

08-15-2007, 07:44 AM

#61

DandyMax

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Well that was the way I initially read into it, but now after his last response I'm not sure what exactly he asked for... if he asked at all...

Hmm wonder what he actually has. If those adapters are the "standard" variety then I know what the cam timing is, but it's not fully retarded.

Grey...?

08-15-2007, 01:28 PM

#62

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Well that was the way I initially read into it, but now after his last response I'm not sure what exactly he asked for... if he asked at all...

Hmm wonder what he actually has. If those adapters are the "standard" variety then I know what the cam timing is, but it's not fully retarded.

Grey...?

Maybe the maker's words will help:

"I made your spacers to provide 8 degrees of intake cam advance relative to the fully retarded VTC position. That should give 10 degrees (crank) of valve overlap. This compares to 6 deg of overlap that the VQ30 cam timing provides (and compares to 2 deg for the VQ35 in the fully retarded VTC position), so there should be better breathing at mid-high rpm without compromising torque much at all. "

I did update SM on the details of the cams, as shown on eBay...
.

08-15-2007, 02:15 PM

#63

nismology

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VQ35 heads don't need tons of overlap to get good intake port flow like old-school domestic V8's, hence why the A33B ECU retards the cams at high RPM as opposed to leaving it in an advanced position.

In any case, according to what you just posted, the centerlines are 115/112 with an LSA of 113.5°.

Intake valve closing @ 65° ABDC with 33° of overlap.

Not quite sure what to think of those specs. BBL

08-15-2007, 02:24 PM

#64

SR20DEN

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SR20DEN

It's more like 10.2 on the ex. lift. I'll post the actual #s when I get them.

Ok I just measured a set of the Nismo knockoffs. The exhaust lift is the same as the intake lift. However I don't know about the duration although I still think that is a little less than the intake.

08-15-2007, 07:47 PM

#65

DandyMax

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

VQ35 heads don't need tons of overlap to get good intake port flow like old-school domestic V8's, hence why the A33B ECU retards the cams at high RPM as opposed to leaving it in an advanced position.

In any case, according to what you just posted, the centerlines are 115/112 with an LSA of 113.5°.

Intake valve closing @ 65° ABDC with 17° of overlap.

Not quite sure what to think of those specs. BBL

Might want to check your overlap calculation, it's a lot more than 17 using those centerlines...

... and what's BBL mean? It's not coming to me for some reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SR20DEN

Ok I just measured a set of the Nismo knockoffs. The exhaust lift is the same as the intake lift. However I don't know about the duration although I still think that is a little less than the intake.

I think what I originally posted (and what I've seen listed for those cams) is probably correct: INT DUR - 262, EXH DUR - 256, both lifts at .426"

08-15-2007, 08:09 PM

#66

DandyMax

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Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

I did update SM on the details of the cams, as shown on eBay...
.

Something doesn't make sense here. At first I thought it was referring to advancing the intake 8 degrees from the 123 centerline the S1's are set at normally. But the math doesn't work to get an overlap of 10 deg.

I think that description is based on stock VQ35 cams, which fully retarded are 125/112 centerlines. Since the intake duration is 238 and the exhaust is 240 that gives 2 deg of overlap, as stated. If you advance the intake cam 8 degrees, now your centerlines are 117/112. With the stock durations, yes you get 10 deg of overlap.

However, you're using S1 knockoffs, which are 260 deg durations on both sides. If you set the S1's to 117/112, now you've got 31 deg of overlap! (edit: however the +2 cam advance would actually put the centerlines at 115/112, for 33 deg of overlap).

Um, did you mention you had S1's and not stock 3.5 cams when ordering the adapters? lol.

08-15-2007, 09:02 PM

#67

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

I think what I originally posted (and what I've seen listed for those cams) is probably correct: INT DUR - 262, EXH DUR - 256, both lifts at .426"

Is this the specs you refer to ??

"CAMSHAFTS SPEC:

260 Degrees Duration / .428" (10.9MM) Lift (Intake Cam.Advanced 2 Degrees)

Cold Valve Lash .010-.013" on Intake & Exhaust

Required to Use Stock Valve Springs"

??

08-15-2007, 09:20 PM

#68

nismology

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Might want to check your overlap calculation, it's a lot more than 17 using those centerlines...

I didn't use the centerlines to calculate overlap. I used http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...INCL_REVUP.pdf

25° advertised overlap at full retard plus the 8° advance that SM dialed in = (fixed) 33° overlap!!!

(my mistake...AGAIN!!!

...subracted from the overlap when i should've added to it...fixed)

Quote:

... and what's BBL mean? It's not coming to me for some reason.

Be Back Later.

08-16-2007, 04:17 AM

#69

nismology

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

However, you're using S1 knockoffs, which are 260 deg durations on both sides. If you set the S1's to 117/112, now you've got 31 deg of overlap!

You're forgetting the +2 advance.

08-16-2007, 06:32 AM

#70

DandyMax

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Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

Is this the specs you refer to ??

etc etc

No, my response to Matt was wrt to the Nismo cams, not the S1's you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

be back later...

duh of course. I'm sure I knew that but for some reason couldn't think of it last night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nismology

You're forgetting the +2 advance.

Yep guess I had a brain fart... which is funny, since I've only been working with all kinds of cam numbers in depth going back weeks now. Hah.

You will get 31 deg of overlap with 117/112 centerlines though, technically that's not incorrect... just that the centerlines are more likely actually 115/112...

08-18-2007, 05:32 PM

#71

grey99max

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Well, the cam discussions were - interesting - but I don't really understand what your conclusions mean.

I ordered a pair of 350Z head gaskets, 16 head bolts, and a few more misc gaskets. If I ever get the ARP rod bolts, I'm ready to build me a cammy 3.5.

Got a couple of Snap-On torque wrenches from eBay while I'm waiting - a 3/8" and 1/2" clicker. Nice stuff, I think.

08-19-2007, 10:19 AM

#72

95BLKMAX

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Nice arsenal you're building there. I knew you'd come into the 3.5 dark side at some point

lol

08-19-2007, 02:21 PM

#73

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX

Nice arsenal you're building there. I knew you'd come into the 3.5 dark side at some point

lol

And you're the reason I'm pulling the heads for 350Z gaskets and bolts.... so if I have problems.........

I'm STILL waiting on the factory's ARP rod bolt shipment, so I keep ordering more stuff. You know, I might as well rebuild a 3.0 or two - since I have enough parts for a couple more engines now. If this keeps up, I might have to get me an EU. No, wait, I didn't say that. Not me - the stock ECU guy..

Since I've been to two PINKS shows filming ( videoing? -whatever) maybe I should build something for the show. Those guys are import bashers, so a properly turboed 10.X-sec Maxima might open some eyes, eh? Or maybe a 350Z Procharger setup instead? Oh, well, I'm just dreaming... but I've ridden in one of those, and a 500+HP 350Z engine properly set up could be quick enough.

How are you doing, looking for another car and all? And Streetz, has he been back out on the track yet with nitrous all the way? You Florida guys have all the fun...

08-19-2007, 10:16 PM

#74

95BLKMAX

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Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

And you're the reason I'm pulling the heads for 350Z gaskets and bolts.... so if I have problems.........

Hahaha, its the same as any other headgasket, just 3 layers instead of that 2 layer stuff the FWDs come with.

Well I would STRONGLY suggest you get some sort of tunning apparatus for the 3.5, as your n/a a/f ratio will be in the 9s:1. Or make a 3" maf like mine to lean out the mix a bit (dunno by how much, that would be trial and error), and that way you'd still be able to keep the stock ECU

.

Wow a maxima on pinks.. you KNOW they will talk alot of trash, LOL

Well the M3 I was looking at, I ran a carfax and found it to he fraudulent with the odometer. Dealer changed the cluster. Advertised 144k miles, Carfax says when they bought it at the auction it had 216k, so buh bye! I'll wait a few more months for the right one to come around.

Dont worry, me and streetz are going to the track as soon as weather permits. I figure if I cant get an M3 anytime soon, I might as well break 13s already, lol. Slicks + weight savings= w0000h0000!!!! I know streetz is shooting for 12s FTW! So you'll hear about those results eventually.

BTW, http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....506063&page=15
Post #432, bahahahhah

08-20-2007, 09:37 AM

#75

DandyMax

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Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

Well, the cam discussions were - interesting - but I don't really understand what your conclusions mean.

Where your cams are timed (ie referenced using the centerlines) will determine the valve opening and closing events, which will affect the shape of your TQ (and hence power) curve.

08-20-2007, 01:35 PM

#76

grey99max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Where your cams are timed (ie referenced using the centerlines) will determine the valve opening and closing events, which will affect the shape of your TQ (and hence power) curve.

Yes, I know that, but: "Well, the cam discussions were - interesting - but I don't really understand what your conclusions mean. "

???

Given my cam specs, and the known advance of SMs adapters, and the intended use of the engine, does anyone have any thoughts about my combination?

09-16-2007, 07:52 PM

#77

grey99max

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About half-way through my 3.5 build, so I thought I'd post some pictures..

Timing gears:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/Dscn2375.jpg
Top view of JDM cams:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/Dscn2377.jpg
Another view of JDM cams:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/Dscn2380.jpg
Closeup of intake pin:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/Dscn2383.jpg
Same of exhaust pin:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...Dscn2382-1.jpg
ARP rod bolts:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/Dscn2390.jpg
Lower oil pan installed:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/Dscn2392.jpg

A really huge wrench - part of a Harbor Freight set - holds cams really well:

09-16-2007, 08:29 PM

#78

oldngivout

Willing to learn

iTrader: (8)

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Murfreesboro, TN

Posts: 1,277

Do you realize that you are missing the chain guide under the water pump?

It goes behind the chain...........

09-16-2007, 08:33 PM

#79

nismology

Supporting Maxima.org Member

iTrader: (8)

Join Date: Apr 2003

Location: Miami, FL

Posts: 9,116

^ Good eye. Yep, chain's gotta come off.

And before you close the cover, make sure ALL the slack is on the tensioner side.

09-16-2007, 08:56 PM

#80

oldngivout

Willing to learn

iTrader: (8)

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Murfreesboro, TN

Posts: 1,277

Yeah, I have done it before. Caught it before installing the cover though.

BTW, looking at the pictures......

I never have understood why anyone would, with the engine out especially, install the upper pan before the front cover. The dowels on the cover make it difficult to keep the oil pan lip seal in place. The front cover goes on best first, in my experience. The FSM says install the cover first, I don't know, just wondering.

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