2007 Altima engine, 4th gen, 3.0 timing
01-19-2013, 06:51 PM
#1
2007 Altima engine, 4th gen, 3.0 timing
I'll be updating this as I go. The point of this thread is to give people a heads up on what they'll have to do to use the 07 Alti motor with the 3.0 timing. If you have the time/skill/money a full 3.5 swap will always out perform a hybrid setup. This is just for people that are lacking any of those and want something better than a typical hybrid swap.
Most importantly, this is for people who know how to read stickys. I will not be telling you how to do a hybrid swap. That info is already out there.
Here's what I've found so far:
Same as Surra's 09 swap:
The upper/lower oil pans, oil pick up tube, and dip stick need to be swapped to a VQ30 or manual trans VQ35 5th/6th gen since the exhaust tunnel isn't as high and will interfere with the front bank's exhaust.
Cylinders 5/6 need the exhaust manifold studs swapped diagonally to work with the older gen VQ35's.
The older crank pulley needs to be swapped on.
There are two knock sensors, one for each bank. I'll be bolting up a 4th gen sensor to the rear bank.
The grinding for the p/s pulley and flipping of the belt tensioner bolt aren't necessary since the newer 3.5 covers created those issues and they're not being used.
The line for the oil cooler has been moved from the thermostat housing to the font coolant tubes and the cooler has gotten larger. The larger cooler will work on both older 3.5 upper oil pans and 3.0s.
You still need to run spacers and drill the intake cams. If you're wanting to run adapters, typical 3.5 swap adapters will not work. See below.
Here's where it gets a little interesting.
Researching this swap, the question came up of how the 3.0 timing equipment might alter the timing of the 3.5 cams.
I found the exhaust lobe centers of cyls #1&2 on my old 1st gen 3.5 (03 max motor) with 3.0 timing and they were 122* BTDC for the rear bank and 119* for the front. This is about 10 crank degrees retarded from the stock VQ35's cam numbers (112 BTDC exhaust lobe center line). I used a degree wheel on the crank pulley, the 3.0 outer timing cover arrow as a reference, and a dial indicator riding the lifter bucket to find max lift. IMO, this method is good +/-3 crank degrees but either way the exhaust cams are retarded.
Now for the intakes.. The dowel pins actually point up when cyl #1 is TDC'd like they do on a VQ30. But, that dowel pin would make the intake timing 28 crank degrees retarded from where a stock 3.0 would be.
07 Alti intake cam in a jig made from a 3.0 intake cam
Using a dial indicator with snake extension as a pointer to measure how many degrees the cam timing would be off if I used the 07 Alti VQ35 factory dowel pin.
Set as VQ30 timing
Clocked to the factory dowel pin hole
So, 14 cam degrees or 28 crank degrees off.
What I'm doing is drilling through the VQ30 primary/secondary timing gears and cam for the new (longer like other hybrid swaps) dowel pin 180* opposite of the factory gear timing slots so that I'm not just egging out the 07 Alti dowel pin hole.
The stock 07 Alti intake cam bolts need to be reused for the intakes too. The VQ30s are too long.
The above cam timing would net:
Intake__Duration: 240º
Exhaust_Duration: 240º
Intake_Opens: 7º BTDC
Intake_Closes: 53º ABDC
Exhaust_Opens: 47º BBDC
Exhaust_Closes: 3º ATDC
Overlap: 10º
Strange the exhaust timing matches up pretty close with a 3.5 Pathfinder..
Either way it should be good overall.
I'm going to be using an 09 Maxima upper intake and (converted) throttle body with this swap since both are larger. The p/ns for the lower intake on both cars are the same number. The 07 Alti's could obviously used if the TB is converted too.
More to come. The engine I got was binding. So, I have to get another before I make any more progress.
Most importantly, this is for people who know how to read stickys. I will not be telling you how to do a hybrid swap. That info is already out there.
Here's what I've found so far:
Same as Surra's 09 swap:
The upper/lower oil pans, oil pick up tube, and dip stick need to be swapped to a VQ30 or manual trans VQ35 5th/6th gen since the exhaust tunnel isn't as high and will interfere with the front bank's exhaust.
Cylinders 5/6 need the exhaust manifold studs swapped diagonally to work with the older gen VQ35's.
The older crank pulley needs to be swapped on.
There are two knock sensors, one for each bank. I'll be bolting up a 4th gen sensor to the rear bank.
The grinding for the p/s pulley and flipping of the belt tensioner bolt aren't necessary since the newer 3.5 covers created those issues and they're not being used.
The line for the oil cooler has been moved from the thermostat housing to the font coolant tubes and the cooler has gotten larger. The larger cooler will work on both older 3.5 upper oil pans and 3.0s.
You still need to run spacers and drill the intake cams. If you're wanting to run adapters, typical 3.5 swap adapters will not work. See below.
Here's where it gets a little interesting.
Researching this swap, the question came up of how the 3.0 timing equipment might alter the timing of the 3.5 cams.
I found the exhaust lobe centers of cyls #1&2 on my old 1st gen 3.5 (03 max motor) with 3.0 timing and they were 122* BTDC for the rear bank and 119* for the front. This is about 10 crank degrees retarded from the stock VQ35's cam numbers (112 BTDC exhaust lobe center line). I used a degree wheel on the crank pulley, the 3.0 outer timing cover arrow as a reference, and a dial indicator riding the lifter bucket to find max lift. IMO, this method is good +/-3 crank degrees but either way the exhaust cams are retarded.
Now for the intakes.. The dowel pins actually point up when cyl #1 is TDC'd like they do on a VQ30. But, that dowel pin would make the intake timing 28 crank degrees retarded from where a stock 3.0 would be.
07 Alti intake cam in a jig made from a 3.0 intake cam
Using a dial indicator with snake extension as a pointer to measure how many degrees the cam timing would be off if I used the 07 Alti VQ35 factory dowel pin.
Set as VQ30 timing
Clocked to the factory dowel pin hole
So, 14 cam degrees or 28 crank degrees off.
What I'm doing is drilling through the VQ30 primary/secondary timing gears and cam for the new (longer like other hybrid swaps) dowel pin 180* opposite of the factory gear timing slots so that I'm not just egging out the 07 Alti dowel pin hole.
The stock 07 Alti intake cam bolts need to be reused for the intakes too. The VQ30s are too long.
The above cam timing would net:
Intake__Duration: 240º
Exhaust_Duration: 240º
Intake_Opens: 7º BTDC
Intake_Closes: 53º ABDC
Exhaust_Opens: 47º BBDC
Exhaust_Closes: 3º ATDC
Overlap: 10º
Strange the exhaust timing matches up pretty close with a 3.5 Pathfinder..
Either way it should be good overall.
I'm going to be using an 09 Maxima upper intake and (converted) throttle body with this swap since both are larger. The p/ns for the lower intake on both cars are the same number. The 07 Alti's could obviously used if the TB is converted too.
More to come. The engine I got was binding. So, I have to get another before I make any more progress.
01-25-2013, 08:46 PM
#11
The new engine came
Stripped down:
The 07 Alti comes with dual knock sensors like the 09 Max.
I unbolted both and put the VQ30DE knock sensor on rear bank.
The Alti has a quick connect fuel fitting like the 09 max and you'll need to figure out something like Surra: http://forums.maxima.org/8065583-post108.html
My car already has AN lines from the filter. So, I need to get that quick connect to -6AN. I ordered 3/8" and 5/16" quick connect adapters by Earl's since I wasn't sure what size the rail was. The 3/8" came but the 5/16" is on back order. 5/16" is the correct size and the p/n is 799-644120.
Edit-
I got the 5/16" to AN fitting on but because of the collar before the quick connect on the rail, the part that screws into the fitting to secure it neededs to be grinded down.
I have to get the car running asap. So, I did the following with what I had:
Wondering why you can't use an 02-08 VQ35DE fuel rail?
Check out grey99max's post on how off the 02-08 Max fuel rail is: http://forums.maxima.org/7885678-post90.html
It's possible but not ideal.
Stripped down:
The 07 Alti comes with dual knock sensors like the 09 Max.
I unbolted both and put the VQ30DE knock sensor on rear bank.
The Alti has a quick connect fuel fitting like the 09 max and you'll need to figure out something like Surra: http://forums.maxima.org/8065583-post108.html
My car already has AN lines from the filter. So, I need to get that quick connect to -6AN. I ordered 3/8" and 5/16" quick connect adapters by Earl's since I wasn't sure what size the rail was. The 3/8" came but the 5/16" is on back order. 5/16" is the correct size and the p/n is 799-644120.
Edit-
I got the 5/16" to AN fitting on but because of the collar before the quick connect on the rail, the part that screws into the fitting to secure it neededs to be grinded down.
I have to get the car running asap. So, I did the following with what I had:
Wondering why you can't use an 02-08 VQ35DE fuel rail?
Check out grey99max's post on how off the 02-08 Max fuel rail is: http://forums.maxima.org/7885678-post90.html
It's possible but not ideal.
Last edited by 95naSTA; 02-03-2013 at 06:24 PM.
01-26-2013, 05:09 PM
#12
Pics from today.
The cyl 5/6 exhaust manifold studs swapped:
Drilled cams installed, Alti LIM and fuel rail installed with 380cc injectors, front of block prepped, and 07 Alti secondary tensioners primed. (Yes, the 07 Alti tensioners are used)
Shots of how the HR head went back to the VQ30 cam cap bolt pattern. So, no drilling of the inner timing cover is needed.
In my first post I mentioned how the stock 07 Alti intake cam dowel pin hole is close but not ideal timing. Instead of drilling near that hole and egging it out, I opted to drill roughly 180 from that hole through the primary and secondary cam gears and through the cam. This puts the dowel slots on the gears pointing in the right direction as if it were drilled like a typical 3.5 swap.
Money shot
Where I ended for the day
I'm going to let the RTV cure before I trim it clean..
The cyl 5/6 exhaust manifold studs swapped:
Drilled cams installed, Alti LIM and fuel rail installed with 380cc injectors, front of block prepped, and 07 Alti secondary tensioners primed. (Yes, the 07 Alti tensioners are used)
Shots of how the HR head went back to the VQ30 cam cap bolt pattern. So, no drilling of the inner timing cover is needed.
In my first post I mentioned how the stock 07 Alti intake cam dowel pin hole is close but not ideal timing. Instead of drilling near that hole and egging it out, I opted to drill roughly 180 from that hole through the primary and secondary cam gears and through the cam. This puts the dowel slots on the gears pointing in the right direction as if it were drilled like a typical 3.5 swap.
Money shot
Where I ended for the day
I'm going to let the RTV cure before I trim it clean..
01-28-2013, 04:13 PM
#14
The engine is bolted in.. Hope to finish tomorrow.
Removing the 3.0 windage tray since the 3.5 already one bolted to the caps/girdle.
Bolting the rest of the 4th gen crap back on
Close ups of the Alti oil cooler hose routing.
The rear line needs to be bent slightly, the cooler sandwich is clocked counter clockwise from it's stock orientation, the hardline that came with the engine has been bent slightly, 2 tabs removed, one re-drilled to bolt to the front of the upper oil pan with the a/c bracket, and a longer hose used from the sandwich to the hardline. A long rubber hose could replace the front hardline setup too.
And the p/s belt clears no problem.
I'll snap more pic tomorrow if it in
Removing the 3.0 windage tray since the 3.5 already one bolted to the caps/girdle.
Bolting the rest of the 4th gen crap back on
Close ups of the Alti oil cooler hose routing.
The rear line needs to be bent slightly, the cooler sandwich is clocked counter clockwise from it's stock orientation, the hardline that came with the engine has been bent slightly, 2 tabs removed, one re-drilled to bolt to the front of the upper oil pan with the a/c bracket, and a longer hose used from the sandwich to the hardline. A long rubber hose could replace the front hardline setup too.
And the p/s belt clears no problem.
I'll snap more pic tomorrow if it in
Last edited by 95naSTA; 01-28-2013 at 04:17 PM.
01-29-2013, 06:20 PM
#15
It's ALIVE.
This is as clean as this will ever be.. (notice the different rear main seal too)
Dirty but all together.
A couple other misc things with the swap
The TB gasket mesh needs to be cut out if you're pulling the TB cable from the top rear.
The bottom rad hose needs to be trimmed since the thermostat housing is a 90*.
I've yet to really push it but it idles good, runs smooth, and pulls good mid throttle.
Somewhere in the near future I'm going to gut the upper and remove the VIAS valves.
So, now we know how this is possible, not just that it is.
This is as clean as this will ever be.. (notice the different rear main seal too)
Dirty but all together.
A couple other misc things with the swap
The TB gasket mesh needs to be cut out if you're pulling the TB cable from the top rear.
The bottom rad hose needs to be trimmed since the thermostat housing is a 90*.
I've yet to really push it but it idles good, runs smooth, and pulls good mid throttle.
Somewhere in the near future I'm going to gut the upper and remove the VIAS valves.
So, now we know how this is possible, not just that it is.
01-30-2013, 07:47 AM
#17
Oly kr*p! You did it! Major kudos on this one, guy... Oh, a tiny favor, if you would.
Can you measure the hood clearance between the actual top of the maxima UIM and the hood? There's a hood brace that runs above the UIM. I've used PlayDough for this in the past. You see, I have the Altima UIM in my '99 and I've been wondering about the Maxima manifold - would it fit? I also like the way you connected the cable for the throttle - did you keep the cruise control? It's amazing that the 3.0 timing components went onto the Altima engine so well - again, that's a heck of a piece of work!
01-30-2013, 09:56 AM
#19
Thanks guys.
Will do on the hood clearance. Shoot me a pm if I don't get back to you in the next week or so. I'll have to get some silly puddy or play dough.
The 09 Max definitely will bolt up to your lower and as far as I can tell it's not hitting my hood.
No cruise unfortunately.
The only two things that make this harder than a first gen 3.5 swap is you have to swap upper oil pan and drill the intake cams/gears. An adapter won't work right due to the dowel pin locations being so close. (still need spacers though!!)
On those auto or CVT second gen 3.5s with the CPS in a different spot you have to swap the upper oil pan anyway.
So, if you were going to drill the cams and use a second gen 3.5 that came with an auto or CVT trans, it's basically the same thing.
Oh, a tiny favor, if you would. Can you measure the hood clearance between the actual top of the maxima UIM and the hood? There's a hood brace that runs above the UIM. I've used PlayDough for this in the past. You see, I have the Altima UIM in my '99 and I've been wondering about the Maxima manifold - would it fit? I also like the way you connected the cable for the throttle - did you keep the cruise control?
Can you measure the hood clearance between the actual top of the maxima UIM and the hood? There's a hood brace that runs above the UIM. I've used PlayDough for this in the past. You see, I have the Altima UIM in my '99 and I've been wondering about the Maxima manifold - would it fit? I also like the way you connected the cable for the throttle - did you keep the cruise control?The 09 Max definitely will bolt up to your lower and as far as I can tell it's not hitting my hood.
No cruise unfortunately.
On those auto or CVT second gen 3.5s with the CPS in a different spot you have to swap the upper oil pan anyway.
So, if you were going to drill the cams and use a second gen 3.5 that came with an auto or CVT trans, it's basically the same thing.
04-01-2013, 04:10 PM
#26
Mini update.. I was able to get 30.4 mpg on a recent 300 mile trip. My previous best with the old DE was just over 31. I'm happy with that.
I'm still trying to figure out why my Emanage is just acting as an expensive SAFC. (only modifying the airflow map works) This is why I haven't hit the track or dyno yet.. I'm hoping to put more time into figuring it out this week.
I'm still trying to figure out why my Emanage is just acting as an expensive SAFC. (only modifying the airflow map works) This is why I haven't hit the track or dyno yet.. I'm hoping to put more time into figuring it out this week.
04-01-2013, 05:42 PM
#28
I could use the larger Maxima plenum if it will fit - otherwise maybe I can drop the engine down an inch or two.
04-02-2013, 07:31 PM
#30
If needed, I can PayPal you $$ for the PlayDough.
I got a box of the stuff from Toys-R -Us in pretty colors and broke up a few of the blocks, worked them by hand until soft and flexible, then made a row of cones across the top of the UIM and closed the hood completely down, raised it back up and looked for the low spots. If anything sticks, a sheet of waxed paper will fix that.
Appreciate it...
I got a box of the stuff from Toys-R -Us in pretty colors and broke up a few of the blocks, worked them by hand until soft and flexible, then made a row of cones across the top of the UIM and closed the hood completely down, raised it back up and looked for the low spots. If anything sticks, a sheet of waxed paper will fix that.
Appreciate it...
04-07-2013, 06:00 PM
#31
No worries on the playdough.
The closest the manifold comes is at the rear. It's pretty close but only to the hood insulation. There are no rub marks after 2500 miles.. I'm running poly F/R mounts and a new lower rad support. So, the engine should be at full height too.
The pics aren't the best but hopefully it'll give you what you're after.
Let me know if you need anything more.
The closest the manifold comes is at the rear. It's pretty close but only to the hood insulation. There are no rub marks after 2500 miles.. I'm running poly F/R mounts and a new lower rad support. So, the engine should be at full height too.
The pics aren't the best but hopefully it'll give you what you're after.
Let me know if you need anything more.
04-07-2013, 06:59 PM
#32
Thanks a bunch - that clearance pattern is very close to what I saw with the Altima UIM. Only difference is that I used very pretty colors to do the same thing. This should mean I can get the Maxima UIM in my car.
Here's why I'm asking for the hood clearance. Shhhh... it's a secret project.
This should mean I can get the Maxima UIM in my car. Here's why I'm asking for the hood clearance. Shhhh... it's a secret project.
04-08-2013, 06:22 AM
#35
04-08-2013, 06:23 AM
#36
Andy
04-08-2013, 10:38 AM
#40
If that's your current ride height you could get away with lowering the engine.
Space out the lower beam to drop the F/R mounts, space out the drivers, and make a custom poly-filled passenger.
Space out the lower beam to drop the F/R mounts, space out the drivers, and make a custom poly-filled passenger.
