Whats the deal? I've read a lot of posts with people talking about sound imaging and the cons of having rear components. I often have more than one passenger in my car, and I want them to have the same experience as the driver and passenger. I also like the sound of a high hat coming from the rear as well as the front. This "imaging problem" you people speak of, is it really noticable. I have an appreciation for sound and music, but I am not and audiophile. Is this really a problem for system performance given that I never plan to compete? Help me clear this "problem" up once and for all. Opinions from both camps are appreciated. Thanks.

 

Well, I am not a fan of rear components, nor reallly a fan of rear fill. Highs are directional, unlike bass which is non directional. Wherever you put them, It will sound as if the music is being played from that position. Have you ever sat in a car that had a good set of 6X9's in the rear or any two way speakers in the rear, you will always notice that people talk about how good your rear speakers are. Thats becuse, perceptionally thats all they hear. Music should have a sound stage. The music should sound as if its being played by the artist right in front of you, like at a concert. If done right, like most competitors do, you wont even need rear speakers and no one will notice unless you tell them. On the flip side, I do like the feeling of the music surrounding you, which is what most people look for when they want rear fill. If Done right and crossed over at the right points rear fill can sound great. If you must have rear speakers, don't do components in the back but get a set of speakers that have crossovers designed for rear fill!

 

Tall, I was in the same situation you were. I decided to go with rear fill, but first chose the Eclipse PointSource speakers for the back. They were great and all, but weren't quite as loud as the front was. I was going for the wow factor, meaning people in the back got the same listening experience as the people in the front. The only difference is that the location of the soundstage was a little higher, since I put the tweets in the stock A-pillar locations. I have to completely disagree with everyone on this board. If you set up your levels correctly, there is no "draw" of the soundstage from the front to the back, or even the middle. It's like the car is split into two halves, front and back. If you are in the front, you can't hear the back. If you're in the back, you can't hear the front. I regularly have more than 2 people in my car. Isn't that the reason we all got sedans? It seems like you are leaning toward definitely having sound back there, but the question is, what kind? I recommend getting components.

 

why does it not show my signature?

 

Sigs were turned off

 

You will find that giving the rear seat passengers the same audio experience as the front is nearly impossible, or, incredibly expensive. The thing is, the car environment has everything tightly packed in a closed environment.To get the best imaging, you should have the fewest point sources. Since we're dealing with stereo, you should only have 2 point sources, that's it. Since most systems have at least 4 speakers, 2 for the front and 2 for the rear, if you're not careful, the the stereo imaging between front and back mixes and dilutes and changes frequency responses. Most people on here knock the Bose system, but in the 4th Gen Maxima, it was pretty darn good. The engineers decided that the 2 front seats would be the opera seats, the best sound in the car was heard there. The rear seats are secondary. This is the case in the Bose in Mercedes, Acura etc. The rear is always secondary, and will not interfere with the fronts. Bose did that by;

1) Limiting frequency range in the rear. the front tweeters provide all the high frequency.

2) The rear speakers tend to be positioned as far away from the fronts as possible. On the 4th gen maxima, they sit on the rear speaker shelf. In the Mercedes E420, they have an 8 speaker Bose setup, the rear speakers are low on the rear doors facing into the rear seats. Most of their mid-range and hi bass sound from them doesn't propagate to the front at all. The rear speaker shelf has 2 subwoofers. They handle the really low non-directional bass. The frequencies they handle are so low that even when putting your ear next to them, you can't tell that the bass is coming from them.

3) Lastly, the bass in the rear is setup to enhance the front, not really the rear. For example, the 4th gen Maxima. The front speakers handle the mid bass, for the really low stuff, from like 100 Hz and below, the rear speakers do the work, or the subwoofers in the trunk. Sitting in the front seats, you hear much deeper bass than when you sit in the rear seats, even though you are closer to the speakers producing the bass when sitting in the rear.

Sorry to be long winded, but if you design your system with those guidlines, you'll wind up with a great sounding sytem with good imaging.

DW

 

If thats what you like then go with it...It's not a "problem" if thats what you want.



But if you want imagaing true imagaing where by as you have say the singer dead center and the instraments to the right points around it in the front, then rear fill tends to take away from that...But in some cases it can help abiance.

 

I would get the components if I were you. From what you describe it sounds like you are less concerned with "sticking to the rules" and more interested in sound that pleases you and your passengers.

In my home theater, I always listen to stereo sources (internet radio, MP3, CDs) with the 5 channel stereo on. I tried stereo mode (just 2 speakers) and I can't stand it. I like to hear everything coming from every direction. In my opinion, if you create a "sound stage" you are basically pointing out where your speakers are located. In a real world scenario, sound bounces from all over the place (including tactile transmission for bass - what you feel).

Another idea is to get the components for the rear, and hear how it sounds with out the tweeters installed - IE rear fill. Then put them on to compare.

Oh, were do you plan to mount the tweeters? I'm looking for a good rear location without hacking my interior out of stock.

 

exactly where i am standing...i jus got sum 8 inch components 4 the rear, i doubt ima use the tweeters cause i have no clue where id put them and i think itd just sound funny....

 

I got into a lot of s.hit here when I said that having that rear fill was necessary. I am a firm believer of sound quality from every position in my car. I know that this is only my opinion, so here it goes:

I like to have my car audio systems' sound quality to come at least to my home theater systems' minimun sound quality. What that means is that there are certain songs out there that 'moves' its sound around the car; you know, moves from the rear left, to the rear right, to the front right, then to the front left. I got a good example: if anyone hear listens to Jazz music, there is a song by Paul Taylor called "Ariel". As the song plays in my car, you hear the bongos in the right front speaker only. It is the same in my home theater system. However, you can't hear it in my neighbors car, although he has a better system than mine.

In my humble opinon, if you want to have sound quality, then having rear fill should be tried first, if you don't like it, then change it. If you want it, then adjust your rear speaker sound until it "blends" with the front speakers. That is how I did mines. I used Infinity Kappa 6 1/2" componets for the rear fill.



Confucious says: "Opinions are like a.ssholes, everyone has one........."

 

Amen brother!

I couldn't agree more (excecpt for listening to Jazz ). I have heard many songs that seem to decode themselves in to a 4 channel format. I don't know how it does it in the car without the signal processors, but it does do it!

 

I would like to add my opinion about rear fill.

Put as much effort and $$ into your front soundstage as possible. You can absolutely have components for rear fill if you want. One of the things to remember is that if you have $1,000 front speakers and $100 rear fill speakers...no matter how well you "blend" the sound stage you're defeating the purpose of having your nice front speakers. A system is only as good as its weakest link.

So, after having said that...try to somewhat timbre match front and rear speakers. This is not at all "necessary", but what is really necessary and unnecessary in car audio? The more effort you put into it the better. A violin should sound like the same violin whether it's coming out of your front speakers or your rears.

The most important thing IMO is to effectively tune the system...regardless of your quality of speakers or mismatch, etc.

A good rear fill should not be noticeable at all when listening from the front seat. However, if you were to suddenly turn the rear fill off, the listener should immediately notice their absence.

A good rear fill will not only provide proper ambience, but they can "pull" the soundstage back into the front seats if done properly. Too much rear fill and you would get the opposite effect and the soundstage will be coming from behind you. They should not distract from the front speakers!! However...I suppose some people would prefer for the majority of the sound to be coming from the rear...to each his own I guess.

Most people, myself included, use smaller speakers for rear fill than the front. With this in mind, use separate xover frequencies for front and rear so that when your front speakers are really pounding, your rear speakers won't be distorting.

There's all sorts of tricks of the trade to obtain good imaging, soundstaging, etc...I just tried to hit some of the highlights.

Tony

 

Sweet...Thanks to all for your replies. I think that I am going to go with components in the front and the rear. I haven't decided where to mount the rear tweets. I guess I need to start thinking abou that now. Now I just have to decide which speakers to buy. I have decided that I am going to go with Diamond Audio. I am trying to figure out if the M6 series are worth the upgrade cost from the M3's. If anyone has any opinion about this, let me know. Afterall, that is what this .Org is all about. Thanks again.

 

I wish I had a digital camera, so I could show you where I put mine. There was a .org member that put them in the B-Pillar, but I can't remember who that was. I had mine installed about 4-5 inches above the midrange. The stereoshop had even suggested putting the tweet in the back deck, to creat a surround sound feel, firing off the back glass, but that they were in no way responsible for my hearing loss. One word of caution is to not mount the tweets in the fake leather peice. The installer said that over time, like 6 months later, the leather would separate, and you'd have a gaping hole where the mounting cup is. This would be the most ideal place for the speaker, but unfortunately the material apparently doesnt hold up over time.

 

.org member CWALLY has rear mounted the tweets, check it out:







I think when I get mine I'm going to do the same. That "b" pillar is one piece so I guess it can be replaced to return the car to stock.

cwally - thanks for the pics!

 

Darn good idea!!! I have the swivel style tweeters in my rear deck. I had them aimed towards the glass at first but heck, lost the sound quality I was looking for (wasn't loud enough coming from the back) so I directed them forward and then turned down the volume a little from the crossover. Saved my son's eardrum for a little while longer till he get a car of his own and hook it up..........

 

I think it made all of the difference having the tweets mounted there. I always had this feeling like the rear part of the car did not have a full sound. (If that makes sense). I know its pointless, but what I would do is I would fade it to the back and turn it up, also with my woofers on. And it just seemed like there was not enough highs coming from the rear of the car. My friends though I was crzy cuz I had just gotten the eclipse pointsource and wanted to get seperates for the rear. I ended up getting the focal polyglas for the rear and mounted the tweeters in the pillar, and every single person that said I shouldn't get them, agreed that it sounded waaaaaaay better. hehe but that is just my two cents.