So it is your opinion that they "sound better". Which is totally valid. Everyone likes different things in music. I didn't know if it went deeper than that.

I will never spend more than $200 on a driver for car audio again. Yes, in fact I did own the TDX. I liked the way it sounded too. Both ported and sealed, extension was great and detail was well above average. It just lacked output. Granted, it metered at 140.3 in the trunk of my Maxima sealed on the dash, but I had just as much satisfaction and that much more output from the Q's. And they were less than half the cost, MSRP's than the TDX's were.

So yes, at one point I thought that the money I spend on subs would directly correlate to superior performance. I won't make that mistake again.

Don't think I am putting the TDX down. It is a great platform. I was satisfied for almost 2 years with them. I just don't have a basis for comparison of the GTi's right now.

Maybe when I get out of school I will do a comparison of these and the Havoc or Q's. It sure would be fun. And make good use of all the gear I just bought.

 

Donnnnn *paging*

Apparently you sold these. Would it be worth the purchase of them at that price + shipping, then completing the set for my Volvo by buying the 8" midbass from you?

http://forums.maxima.org/6836247-post1.html

 

Oh yeah, I totally agree. A third party would need to be brought in for the opinion segment. The build would be documented for accuracy by us, but the "reviewer" would need to be someone with no previous bias.

 

Too bad I just sold the last of the TDX's too. I could have added that to the mix.

 

Actually I could call a bunch of guys that were at a meet 2 years ago that heard my SEs. Unfortunately none would lean in its favor though.

 

That could work !

 

See they would already have formed an opinion. I would suggest some type of blind comparison. The listener would have to have no idea which sub they would be presented with. I know that some people would create bias based upon the look of the sub or possibly have a preconceived idea of brand quality as well. There is a sect of Kicker and Focal sack riders here. Thier blind dedication makes me ill.

What type of enclosre were your SE's in? I will assume sealed. I am just curious, as the new test would require all new boxes anyway.

 

I actually want to try this out. I know the new SE's can be had for $89 right now. I may see if someone will donate it for the test. I have plenty of amps too. ranging from 100-500-1000-3000+ watts per channel. and I have batteries that will eliminate any voltage requirements. I don't have a clamp, but who really uses them anyway.

 

What is the price points, retail (what everyone would expect to pay) for theGTi? I have found a ton of different prices.

 

http://www.jbl.com/car/products/prod...at=SUB&ser=GTI

Oh my god! These things are pricey. We may have to do 10's. Even at 2x markup for MSRP, I think we are looking at comparing a $89 driver to a $300 driver. hrmm...

 

Actually they found out what they were after listening. No one looks in my trunk and then takes a listen. Especially at a meet, they listen, discuss, then question what products were used.

No, bad assumption. They were ported to spec. 2 SE10s and I still have the box around here somewhere after I dumped the subs.

 

According to ebay, the RE SE 12" D2 can be had for $154, even though I know they can be had for $89+shipping.

The JBL GTi 12" is $259+shipping. We will need to decide what prices we will use for comparison. Ebay is a decent medium for comparison, although not super accurate, it will do me thinks.

 

If you source em directly from China you may be able to get at about $30 per if in quantity.

 

What does difference in price have to do with anything?

 

True, for me it would be harder as they subs would be visible. I could use a towel or something to cover it. But they do already have an opinion of the subs, thus making the blind test part a necessity.

Ah, I thought you were out of the porting phase? My bad for assuming. We would do a single driver in each case. This will keep cost down and time/materials. I would prefer 12"s as that is a widely used size and should be easy to get.

 

For me a lot. I would have a higher expectation of a driver that costs 2-3x as much. Does the reviewer feel that one driver is "worth" or performs 2-3x better than the other. We can set up SQ terms and SPL will be easy to get. I am always interested in value/dollar invested. I would think most people would agree with that as a factor in purchasing equipment.

For instance, IMO, the Fi Q is one of the best daily subs that can be had in its price range. Then add the factory options and customizing that can be done and it gains favor for me. This is just my opinion from the drivers I have had experience with, by no means is my opinion perfect as it is close to impossible for me to do objective listening tests to every driver available.

So yeah, I would say price is a reasonable addition to the criteria.

 

tis mine and no, never seen power. better act fast though cause i'm on about 500 forums and they've been getting some serious bites.

 

Reasonable? Sure, but we are not comparing $2k to $300 either.

 

when did value get confused with performance?

 

I have no clue.

 

Yes, however 3 times the price is significant to me. Even double is too.

 

I am not saying they are the same, nor am I confused, I am simply stating that this is another measure we could use as a basis for comparison. I even reread what I posted and don't see how you got that I was saying they are one in the same.

I can't think of one reason to leave price as a point of comparison out of the comparison between subs.

 

If you are suggesting a purely peformance based test, then no objective listening needs to take place. We would just compare flat response within the desired range and SPL and be done with it.

I would then bring in a comparably priced and equipped AA or Fi model and show how easy that comp would be...

 

i wasn't specifically addressing you, more so a common attitude.

price plays 0 role in performance, only value. if a $100,000 speaker is .01% better than a $100 speaker it is still better. basically, if you include price than it is a test biased towards value rather than actual performance and is not an "unbiased comparison" from the start.

an unbiased comparison is:

a) test a woofer
b) compare charts
c) pick a winner

there is your top performer.

even an unbiased a/b audition doesn't leave you with an unbiased answer, just an unbiased opinion.

 

Thats what I think also.

If price were thrown into the mix, it would come down to bang for buck.

 

Holy serious thread!

 

27% of statistics regarding opinions by people are wrong...

 

I was trying to come up with a system of testing. There are several components I was thinking of including in value/per performance. There will be a straight performance portion of the test. I am not questioning that the "winner" be decided on that test alone either. I just think it would be short sighted to not include the performance/cost as a part of the test. Seeing as the two drivers in question are so far apart in price range, I think it definitely does matter. Insert analogy of choice here. Apples and oranges... If you want a "fair" or "even" test that excludes price, than the GTi would need a different competitor. One of equal or possibly greater value. That way the cost issue can be eliminated.

 

I know I buy products based upon the best bang for the buck criteria all the time. This brings up another good point, a lot of people buy this way as well thus making it a reasonable inclusion, I think.

 

LOL. Just a friendly discussion.

 

Thus making the only valid parts of the test being numbers. SPL/$, % uniformity across a desired range/$... The opinion parts would be just that, someones opinion. Doesn't make it bad or wrong, just an opinion.

 

If we can't come up with some sort of criteria for the test than it is a waste. I will never own this sub due to its high cost of ownership, unless I gain a huge income when I graduate. And even then, I doubt I would. I am just not sold on the GTi yet.

 

what kind of specs are these?

drivers should be evaluated by things like frequency response, distortion, and transient response.

you seem to be making a fairly educated attempt here, but your parameters are way off.

 

We could just judge a subwoofer based on how much chrome there is per square inch.



In this case, all your subwoofers SUCK.

 

lol @ Last edited by chinaonnitrous1; Today at 07:44 PM.Reason: added more emoticons.

 

I was trying to think of things that can easily be measured. I have no way of recording any #'s regarding actual distortion or transient response. SPL @ a freq. range can be done via the TL.

Honestly, the GTi seems to have less and less credibility with me. Or should we all just agree with Don and Parag b/c they claim this to be an amazing driver. It is general responses like these that discourage people from even attempting to try and compare drivers. Not saying just you, so don't think I am singling you out. It seems every time someone tries to do this, there is always someone that can do it better and has a better method. The bad part is, of thier suggestions, very few people have the ability or funds to have the equipment necessary to perform the test suggested. I know for sure I don't.

I have no interest in trying to do this anymore. There will always be someone that disagrees with the methodology or scale of measure. I think every test needs its opposition, I am just not willing to waste my time and energy to do it.

Lastly, I will never waste my money of overpriced unproven drivers again. I did it with the TDX's based upon other peoples reviews, wasted money, and had a horrible experience with the company since.

 

So, moving on to bigger and better things. I have been tracking my router. I ordered it 3 days after the table saw and sander and it will be here before then. I never did get a confirmation # from PE on the Jasper Jig combo. Anyone else order from PE lately and not gotten a confirmation email and/or tracking #? I used to get them with every order. The last two orders, I gets none...

School is whipping my butt. I thought I was going to have an easy semester. I was wrong. Even wifey commented on how much effort I have been giving this semester in comparison to any of the others.

 

speaker testing is not a new science, the parameters are already laid out.

btw, spl a specific frequency is very different from frequency response.

i personally never mentioned a preference towards either driver. one thing i will say though is the gti is far from unproven and it seems that your perception of the driver's "credibility" is based on ppl disagreeing with you rather than any type of further research. if you had you would find that it is a very highly regarded woofer even outside of the .org's little audio corner.

finally, you seem too be taking this way too personally for a "friendly discussion". understand that people will always have opinions (and some will even have facts) rather than taking it as someone just disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing.

but like you implied, you don't have to take anyone's word for anything. however, i advise that when you are the one without the hands/ears on experience you might want to check your assumptions when dealing with someone who has said experience. especially when they are persons with credibility. for the record, i am not referring to myself... woofas are teh ghey.

 

First, your testing methods are still flawed bud.

The absolute first thing is a control. You do not have this. I know, I know you will use your car, or someones car. Not good enough. A controlled environment as well as control products. Oddly this is what I have downstairs.

Secondly, you are still looking at the cost figures.

'test that excludes price, than the GTi would need a different competitor'

Why ??? Because it costs more? No, let's stick with the initial subject of the SE. Because the GTi costs more, it needs a more costly competitor? Absolutely not.

 

Certainly not the vast majority of my clients. They want the absolute best sound they can get. If it is beyond theyre means, they often hold off until they can afford. Ears are the best judgement for this, not pockets. Anything else is settling.