I currently have 2 JL 10w3's in my car. They are firing through the rear seats (facing forward ... check out my homepage for pics and details).

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I was wanting to know for others with different configurations. I am planning to redo the system and amps, but before I build the box (once again see homepage for full desciption) could you give me some personal experiences. I am planning on building the box to fire the subs up towards the rear deck and mount my amps in a similar way they are now. Or should I point the subs towards the rear with some sort of drawers for the amps? I am just wandering b/c I was playing with the car today in my garage and was amazed. In my current set up, I was playing a cd and was listening to the way it sounded both with and without the door opened (trying to check for rattles). Sounded like always, but then I opened the trunk and sh$t ... it rocked me! My tools and windows in the garage started rattling, so it got the geats turning in my head.

What do you all think will give the best output. I must say that I am a SQ freak and not a basshead, but I do want to hit like a sledgehammer sometimes. Personally I think the rear deck firing will give the best compromise (kinda makes me think of a hatchback install that way)

Thoughts anyone?

 

2 15's ported with the same setup you have now?

 

Firing the subs into the seat gives you tighter cleaner harder tighter bass notes. Firing them to the rear gives you more boom and 3db more in volume. Firing them up into the deck when it's not sealed into the deck gives you the same effect as firing them into the seat with a little more output.

 

Well my plans are not to seal the subs from the front of the car. If i fire towards the rear deck I will be make a new rear deck (esentially a fiberglass frame with a large opening through the center. The entire thing will be covered in grey grill cloth to look as stock as possible. I know I will have to do some major cutting to the rear deck metal which doesn't bother me. I will cover the entire thing with dynamat (actually mcmaster viso) to reduce rattles. If I fire to the rear, I was going to get the bose sub grille cover and attach it to the stock deck to allow the sound to enter the cabin. I notice you have yours firing up, not the same way I want to, but do it all over again, would you have it the same way?

 

Try this - see below

 

uhm... little more than I wanted. main reason is I don't want the whole world seeing what I got. but that is the jist of things. The only difference is that I would have those subs under the rear deck and the cover would essentially be a grille for the subs. Those are kappa's aren't they? I almost bought a set of those couple of years ago, but I went the polks db's. Wish I didn't though ... I'm happy with my JL's now though.

 

Nope, D.A. MacDaddy's. And don't worry, there is a grill. This pick is just from a test fitting to make sure the basket cleared the trimmed deck. They have three seperate sealed enclosures to get the best transient response possible. And a little extra boom from the rear window.

 

12"s right...?

(? to jmax)

 

I know what you mean buy firing the subs up... I meant the sealed compent to be a self standing coment.

You mean your going to build the box and just aim it to the rear deck right?

As far as remaking the deck...thats not really nessacary or near as easy as you think. The reason is the way nissan has there seat belts. Now it could be dun. However What i say is to just do what i did. ie cut the hole for the factory bose sub then mount the grill...similer to what your talking about. The rear deck is strong and unless you have a sh*t load of bass..inexcess of 140. you shoun't have a prob with rattiling. Infact I believe only one thing in there had a little resinece and required just a spray to stop it.

It's funny you should metion if I had to do it over again...because after finals we are going to redue the trunk...and yes i plan to still use the tire well as the enclure and have them fire right up into the deck.

 

Yes, Twelve's. The seat belt ain't a problem unless you have a center passenger. And that could be remounted. I just chose not to remount.

 

If you need a box that will fit flush up against the bottom of the rear deck I still have my first test box. 3/4 MDF with about 4 layers of glass and kevlar wrapped aroung it. Epoxy resin. Each of the 3 boxes is about 0.8 cu ft net volume. You just need a baffle to mount to the top of the deck for the subs to attach. Then seal the bottom box to the deck, I used 8mm screws and gasketing. Then use some glass to bridge from the box to the individual sub rear side - unless you don't care that all three subs are firing into the same space. I chose the more difficult route with completely seperate enclosures.

 

well i don't see much of a problem with the seat belts, but replacing the entire deck with a sub box would interfer with the spring hinges on the trunk lid. I'm not too concerned about the child seat anchors, since I don't have a reson for them, losing them in the new deck wouldn't make me lose any sleep. i think even if i don't make the deck a box I would still remove the center belt and the anchors, so I could get the subs to fire as close to the rear deck as possible. Still don't know what I will do, but trying to get some other ideas.

Thanks,

 

What EAXCTLY is it you are trying to acieve. Give specific right down to the wire. If i know what your trying to get I can make some easy sugestions.

If it's more room you want I can help...more flash i can help. more bass i can help. You just gotta say what it is you want to get out of all of it.

 

uhm, pretty much i'm looking for more output. flash ... not worried about, b/c i know my way around installs so that's not a real issue. room ... that would be nice, but without loosing my spare tire (which is not an option) there is little hope of that.

specifics of what i want. i would rather my car be louder on the inside rather than on the outside. from what I was descibing in my original post, there is more bass output outside of the car than on the inside, where it counts. no, i'm not looking for an spl machine, but rather a cleaner and stronger bass. if i can get more output by simply reaiming the subs I can then turn down the gains on my amp.

Plans right now ... if I aim the subs at the rear deck the box will be made almost entirely of fiberglass (except the baffle). There will be a trim panel that will be attached the back wall of the trunk with some design to add a more "artistic" touch to the install when the rear seats are folded down. The amps will be installed in a tilted stack formation with a molded and contoured trim panel to showcase the amps.

if i point the subs to the rear, I will mount the subs high in the rear wall with drawers underneath for the amps. I will then motorize the drawers. At that point, i will use plexiglass in the sub box construction. The opening to the rear seats will have the plexi side to showcase the subs in the box and the amps in the retracted drawers.

I am really trying to decide which way to fire the subs. That is the opinions I am seeking.

Thanks

 

Well like i said firing them into the rear will give you another 3db, but make if a slight bit more boomy, however wheather or not you realize that it don't know beacuasae it depends how much attention you pay.

You don't have to loose your spare to have room thats not a big deal
here is an idea I came up with. If you can pull it off. I haven't acuallty mesured anything.
But you could use the empty space between the seat back and where the trunk pass through opning starts as an enclosure. Build the sub enclosre into that area. use baffles around the opning glass around it to seal it and then mount the subs. That seat seals up pretty well and that will give you some good out put. you could just use that space as the enclosure if it measures right or buid a box that runs right along there. Then the amps could be mounted in the side panels 0n an acuater that flips them down to display them. Meaning cut the side pannel build a small rack for the amp put the acuater on the bottom then have it turn in to cover the rack then flip to show it.

Did that all make sence? It's just an idea. I'm full of ideas for the max theres alot of things that can be dun...if you don't like that one i'll give you another. Again I'm not posstive the sub part will work cuz of the enclosure size/sub size. But it's a thought.

 

I know you responded cuz i got an email you did but the post isn't here I take it you deleted it?

Anyway all you gotta do is point the box all the possible ways and then you can decide from there...it's not perminate at this point.

 

actually no I didn't delete it, but it has dissapeared somewhere!

what I said was:

i know what you are talking about with the ideas. I'm full of them and I know there is alot that can be done -- limited only by time, money and dedication.

As for you suggestion I must admit I got lost. Do you mean actaully trying to do the install in the hole between the rear seats and the trunk? I know this could be don as part of the baffle, but as for the entire enclosure (i think that's what you were suggesting) it can't be done with 10's or above. Maybe some 8's but there is not enough room to get enclosure volume and mounting depth. Now you could use that space as say your baffle and then include part of the trunk as the enclosure. I think that would be relatively easy to accomplish. I had thought about doing that, but that would essentially mean that I have my subs firing the same way they are now. Making you baffle board to fit in there would be somewhat easy, then some fiberglass later you have a box. If I missunderstood your suggestion let me know. I think I got most confused you talked about the glass.

 

The metal springs which bounce the trunk lid open can be replaced with gas struts, electric actuator, or something homemade. Besides, the trunk is incredibly secure when there is nothing mounted to open it. Ha, ha only a thief with a way to prop it would dare steal anything. Rebuilding the deck is not difficult, just time consuming. I designed this enclosure to maintain most of my trunks volume.
I am not sure what Max'n out meant about using the hole to get enough volume for a sub. The rear seat is only about 3-4 inches thick at the thickest point. And if you rebuild the seat into an enclosure then you won't have any comfortable passengers back there regardless of whether or not they have seatbelts. You are right about building the enclosure behind the hole, andbasically building a shaft for the bass to pass through and out the hole. Except that a 10 will fit, probably even a Kicker L7. The twelve will work but it must be mounted further back. And then there is the enclosure Sweetsound built with two twelves fireing through the hole.
For volume rear firing is the way to go. Front firing into the cabin is for optimal transient response from sealed or aperiodically damped enclosures. If you are still looking for places to mount the subs you can also mount a large 8 or a 10 in the rear doors. A lot of glassing is needed to solidify the door structure. My only rear speakers are Diamond 8.6's. They are large 8's, actually more like 9's. Built for midbass rather than sub frequencies. I have them bandpassed from about 60Hz to 2000 Hz. They don't interfere with the front sound stage because of the natural upper frequency roll-off below the crossover point and then the 12dB/octave roll-off above that point. They really solidify the midbass but a different type of driver could easilly be used to kick out some bass guitar and bass drum. The only reason I bought them is because they were at a great clearance price.

 

I want to just say that this idea came to me in a dream i have not taken any mesurement at all and don't have the car here to even look at it.(as it's in the shop getting underhood glass work dun)

But anyway; you kinda have the idea. Let me try to explain a little better. The idea I have is to hang a sub baffle about 2-4 inches infront of the pass through area, with backstrap or aluminum or just some sort of framing material.then fleese from the bafle along the framing to the pass through frame.then glass it and rug it.that way the area in between the back side of the seat and trunk it's self is the enclosure and theres very little build out and that way it's also a nice shape instead of a "box". I believe you could fit 12"s because the enclosure size for non spl crazy subs arn't that big also the magnet only has to have an inch behind it the enclosure can run the hole way side ways just so there is the right airspace there.

Does that clear it up a little.

Um the basic reason the subs firing in isn't loud is becuase the seat seals up real well almost as good as a benz this is why you can use it as an enclosure.

jmax is partly right the springs that flip the trunk can be replaced with acuaters...but it's still easy to get open...i knew a guy that had (2) 200 lbs acuaters on his trunk lid all they did was pry the crap out of it and took everything and it was a 20k install.

Rebuilding the deck you prob right may not be real tuff but if he's never dun it before theres alot that could be messed up and it could look bad. but i guess some time you just gotta do it.

Now im not acually saying rebuild the seat just use avalible space.

The first thing I say to do is since you only have a normal box right now flip it around in different directions and see the basic way you want it.

 

But that theft took more than half an hour unless the thief new the install before they started. I am not worried about a thief who needs that much time. But I was joking in my post anyway. I meant the difficulty of getting the lid up without any actuaters. Sure it is easy to get up, but then you have to prop it with something which adds time. Then you have to uninstall everything carefully or else the lid may fall on the back of your head.

I recently went to ispeed's home page and saw that the pass through is much larger than in my 4th gen. 4th gen has a hole that passed completely throught the armrest. So a forward firing sub works. Their are literally thousands of options and no way for anyone to guess which would be ouadest or sound best. A lot depends on your budget and how much time you want to put into it yourself. Not to mention the subs you want to use. Pick the subs and then pick the enclosure that will work best. Or, pick the enclosure type you want and then pick a sub that works well in that style and size of enclosure.

And just so you know, small boxes are for SPL, large boxes for sound quality and low bass extension. And, there is much more to glassing than a little fleece and glass. Sure that would work, but it wouldn't be areally strong sub box. The most important attribute of a sub box is it's strength/stiffness.

 

Here is my old setup with two Infinity Perfect 12" subs. It was very loud.

http://images.cardomain.com/installs...87_90_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/installs...87_89_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/installs...987_3_full.jpg

Here is the new box I built that has not been installed yet. It contains two A/D/S 310RS.2 10" subs and is setup the same way. Main goal is sufficient bass with excellent sound quality.

http://images.cardomain.com/installs...7_182_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/installs...7_183_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/installs...7_184_full.jpg

More pictures are in the link to my install page.

Anton

 

Damn Anton,
What happened, fall into the trunk of a car at work and not get out until now?

 

That theif did not take a half hour he was not concered with keeping the install pretty mearly getting the equpement. they took a pry bar and craped up the lid...the hammered the plexi till it broke the riped the amps out of the glass and took some other little things.

Yeah The diff in space between the 4th and 5th and design is very differnt if it had a pass through using it as an enclosure would not work but since it seals up you can use it as in enclosure.

Yup thats what I'm saying you got to pick the way you want it to fire and sub you want before you can create an idea.

and by the way just so you know you have your boxes mixed up.

You also don't have to preach to me...i know what i'm doing
Go check out my homepage
SWEETSOUND2001: do you realize you have you subs firing so much into each other your cancelling part of the waves.

 

actually I had originally thought about the same box design as sweetsound2001, but didn't think I could pull it off cosmetically in the 5th gen pass through. And I was thinking the same as max'n out on the cancellation issues. I have always been under the impression to pull that off the subs need to be at a 90degree angle from one another. It has been awhile since I had my physics classes but at that angle is when you get the most "constructive" interference. And as they move in closer together the amount of "destructive" interference is increased. Kinda like not wanting to fire the subs directly at each other. I think Kicker was the first one to really incorporate this box building into their suggestions for operations. I remember a friend of mine's brother back when I was in 7th grade (years ago ... i'm 24 now you do the math) who had a "diamond" box in his mazda truck lowerider. Now that design had the subs firing at each other so I don't know why it was so loud but at time you didn't want to sit in his truck when it was cranked. That design looked like this:

/\
\/

just with all 90 degree angles.

As for me I think I am going to fire the subs at the rear deck and maybe put the amps on a rack in the pass through area. I have a friend who can make me some metal brakets on a CNC machine so I can stack the amps ... who knows though.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

Think about the wavelength below 70Hz. Pretty long. That's why you can get away with it. And I did not post my box recommendations in error. As Qtc goes up as sealed enclosure volume decreases. Creating a large hump in the output near resonance followed by radid dropoff below that point. Obviously your friend spent more money on making his install look good than he did making it secure. I guess it doesn't matter if a hot amp is dented since they never get crap for them anyway. I'd like to watch them attempt to go through kevlar with a crowbar.

 

You really like to argue. But anyway, if you think its fine then ok whatever. yes your box recomendations are wrong. Put it like this spl cars use large ported boxes...where as sq cars use the recomended size box in sealed form. More often that not thats what you see. Of course there is the ocastional ap setup.

there is no doubt he spent alot of money makeing the install flashy but it's as secure as any out there. No one knew about it, (2) 200lbs acuaters, amps mounted securely alarm system what more do you want. If a theif wants it any one can take anything.

 

Okay max'n out, I'll give you a few references:

Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual, David Weems(I have owned this for at least 11 years)
MECP Study Guide, CEMA
High Performance Loudspeakers, Martin Colloms
Loudspeaker Cookbook, Vance ****ason
literally hundreds of magazine articles, and numerous test boxes in my basement, my cars, my wifes cars, my friends cars, my bedroom, my parents basement, guestrooms, etc.

I dare you to find one reference for sealed boxes that validates your statement. Ported boxes are generally 3 dB louder than sealed. Bandpass significantly more, I don't feel like looking it up. Sound quality uses sealed and aperiodic for greater cone control, transient response, and low frequency extension. Oh yeah, I do have kevlar kickpanels. Lots more in stock for other boxes.

 

You just backed up what Ive been saying. IN your orginal statement you said "small boxes are for spl." I said no large boxes are used for spl and small boxes are used for sq...now i'll give you i din't go into why but yes it's cone control. So you wanted one thing that backed what i was saying ...ok you just gave it.

 

So you admit that you really don't know which box type is for any purpose? All my references to size were for sealed boxes. Ported and bandpass have a lot more variables to consider.

 

did you check out my install?

check it out at
http://members.sounddomain.com/xtantmaxima

 

I would admit that i no longer know what point your trying to make because what your saying keeps changing.

 

Anyone know if its possible to mount a single 12" sub below the rear deck, where the bose sub would go? I am not experianced with installs but I expect it would be difficult to seal a box under it...What about free air subs? From what I Ive been told they are not up to par with what I had in mind..a JL12W6 is that correct? Anyone instrested in making me a sealed box??

 

Max'n, you are lost dude.

Reference the 12" under the rear deck. Easy. Do you want boom or clean, smooth bass that can give good attack? By free air do you mean mounting the sub to the rear deck with no box, that's generally the free air setup. A sealed box can be installed under the deck. It is prtty complicated. My install has three 12's in seperate sealed boxes firing into the cabin under the rear window. It does involve removing the spring steel that opens the trunk. Making a gas strut or electric actuator beneficial. If you want more info about this install, send email.

I have no clue where the bose sub would go because I didn't pay for one.

 

Are you trying to explain this to me or "bangster" cuz i know this. Your install does not seem complicated for the sub part.
the bose subs goes right about in the middle.

 

Anyone of you guys tried putting ports in the rear deck? This helps keep the OEM look but also utilize the trunk space as the enclosure and helps make the subs more efficient and eliminate the need to build a seal enclosure.

Of course, if you want to play the subs with the trunk open, you got a problem though.


What do you think?

 

"Anyone of you guys tried putting ports in the rear deck? This helps keep the OEM look but also utilize the trunk space as the enclosure and helps make the subs more efficient and eliminate the need to build a seal enclosure."

Only problem, all ported enclosures do require a sealed box. The only vent is the port. There still must be a box somewhere. You could vent a ported or bandpass through the deck. I think that is what maxnout did in his enclosure, or the enclosure that was built for him/her, whatever the case may be. I won't use a ported enclosure because of how it alters the true sound of a the instruments, not to mention the fact that the bass is always a beat behind with a ported enclosure. I like it straight up in my face, and always on time.

 

I don't think maxnout's box is ported like that. He has a sealed box if I remember correctly that has the bose grille piece in place to allow a "port" into the cabin. Now xtantmaxima I know had his bandpass port built directly into his rear deck.

psyclotran -- you are describing a free air application, or at least that is the way it sounds. In order to do free air right the entire trunk has to be airtight and sealed from the cabin. It is not truly a free air. Granted there is no box to build, but the trunk is the box. If you have never just played a sub sitting on your floor without a box, let me tell you what is sounds like -- crap. What happens is the front wave is cancelled by the rear wave of the sub. Therefore you get very little sound. If you mount "ports" in your rear deck and just put some subs back there in no box, do be suprised in saying it doesn't sound good. You need to either replace the "ports" with subs and seal the trunk up good (that means everything) or put those subs in a box.

If I missunderstood what you were saying, sorry for the lecture, and please tell me again what you are wanting to do.

 

Yeah, you got me.

Now, what I like to know is what is the effect of a seal box and using the trunk as the second enclosure with ports in the rear deck? Will this be a waste of time and effort.

As for woodworking tools. I got routers, miter saw, circular saw, drills, compressor, nail guns...

Anybody got some good integrated box design for the 3rd gen Max they want to share with me? I want tight and fast BASS. I got more than ample amount of amplifiers to do the job.

 

As for the sealed box with the trunk as a second enclosure idea, I guess it could be done. I would not want to try it though. Trying to integrate that design into a bandbass enclosure and making it work would be a b$tch. Also just as the trunk is, I don't think it would be feasable. Most trunks have some sort of venting ports therefore those would have to be filled in order to get the desired bandpass effect. And just giving some more thought as I type you would have to seal the trunk from the cabin once again to get a true bandpass "box" or situation. In very simple terms what you are asking about is what maxnout is doing but not calling his trunk an enclosure. He has a "port" (the factory bose grille) were it allows the bass to enter the cabin. His trunk is not a "second" enclosure by design, but rather a byproduct.

As for box designs and techniques, I always refer people to jl audio's tutorials web page. They have several examples and pictures that will aid you in seeing why certain things are needed.

jmax can also point you to some books that will help you in box design. I won't steal his thunder and I will let him tell you about them ...

calling jmax ... are you there????

 

Hey Maxnout. How well is your system working?

Jmax, any chance do you have some existing plans I could use?