With all the fun I've had lately between dragging and AutoX/Road Racing, I'm thinking about rims specifically for racing, mainly to save on my poor street tires, and reduce some weight since my road wheels are 18" hogs. My primary concern is road racing. So my question is, what size should I go with? The O.D. doesn't need to be perfect because they will only be used for racing. I think 15's are too small for Road Racing , so I'm thinking maybe 16's. I could then go with a 225/50-16. There isn't much in competition tires in the 235's so it's either 225 or 245, which I think is a little big. If I up the anty to 17's I gain a few more tire options, but 225 is still the best for selection. With 17's I can go with a slightly smaller aspect ratio that might help turn in and performance a bit. I could also fit bigger brakes, but not sure if I'll ever see those anyway, since I still swap to 16's for the winter. 17's will also have more inertia and weight more than 16's. So let me know what you guys think?

 

I would agree that 17x9 is a great size. If you don't want to be that wide 17x8.5 is also good. What I don't understand is why you recomend a 245/45. That OD is much larger than stock and therefore makes the gearing worse. 245/40 is smaller OD than stock but that would mean quicker accleration and a theoretical lower top speed if the car can get there. 245 is also a bit small for the 9" rim no? Why not 255/40?

 

Thanks for the advice guys!

 

Also keep in mind availability of tires...

Falken Azenis sport only come in 225/45/17 and 245/45/17..
of course there are many other brands of tires out there, but the sidewall height and tread width all vary somewhat based on the particular tire you choose.


That said, I would also look at some 16" wheels. Mazda RX-7 wheels are 16x8 around 50mm offset, IIRC.. they should work well on a 4th gen with stock brakes up front.

(another key is to make sure the wheels fit over any brakes you have or plan on using)

after that, go with the smallest and widest wheel you can fit under the fenders. screw your speedo- it doesn't matter..

 

Thanks,
I'll probably spend a lot of time browsing on e-bay this winter...

 

Umm, why would you be talking about Azenis for road racing, wouldn't they get super greasy/unpredictable after a lap or 2? I know they get mushy after 3-4 autoX runs on my SE-R, I can only imagine what they would do on a road course when they don't have any breaks to cool down.

 

Ditto about discouraging people from running Azenis for road racing or other extended on-track driving.

They are auto-x tires, pure and simple. More specifically, they are Street Touring class auto-x tires (due to class-mandated minimum treadwear rating). At every auto-x I've been to when its been sunny and above 80*F, everybody knew who was running on Azenis just from watching who was cooling down their tires with water spray bottles. Even after runs as short as 30 seconds.

Kumho MX's would be a much better choice for extended hard running, as they have better tolerance to temperature.

MAXimumHP - you do want to put together your wheel/tire setup as a package. For road course/auto-x you want wheels that are relatively wide for whatever tire. IOW, up around the maximum widths tabulated in the 'specs' pages at places like www.tirerack.com .

Norm

 

I autocrossed my SE-R 2 weeks ago at Oakland coliseum, I ran 3 heats around 50 sec runs, the temp was about 70 degrees, sunny, my azenis didn't even heat up that much at all. I waited an average of 8-10 min between each run.

 

I think the Azenis start to go away at a temperature that's more than a few degrees lower than where most other ST-intended tires do. At about 30* less temperature, if the numbers I've heard are at all reliable. So "not much" on Azenis is more significant than an equal temperature rise on most other tires.

Don't get me wrong - I'd consider the Azenis in 245/45-17 on the car in my sig if it wasn't for the temperature issue (combined with the easy ability to overload the tires at the front end from weight and the rears by drive wheel torque).

Norm

 

Then you aren't driving hard enough Otto

we only have a few minutes between runs, so they do heat up and get mushy after 3-4 back to back runs.

Trust me, if you take your Azenis on a roadcourse you WILL feel them get mushy/greasy after a lap or 2. I have heard many stories about them just "letting go", and I have seen it happen at Streets of Willow myself.

BTW it was good to have a fellow b13 out there, you should definatly try and make it a habit to make it out.

 

As much as people ***** about the Azenis sports on a road course, I see SE-Rs and All manner of Hondas running them all day at MSR, Hallett, and TWS.

I was following one classic SE-R at MSR a while back.. he had some Eibachs, Konis, Azenis sports, the typical strut braces, and intake, cams, and headers for engine mods.. I was having a hard time keeping up with him in the corners with my Toyo RA-1, but I would leave him behind on the straights.

this was on a 100+ day as well, and one of many people I see out there using them all the time.

Sooo, given the right driver and a properly set up car, the Azenis can and will work just fine on a road course.

Now, there's always tires that are better and whatnot, (I'm going for the MX myself next time around) but arguing that the Azenis Sport don't work on a roadcourse doesn't compute in my book.

 

I would go for a light 15 inch wheel.

 

Not to beat a dead horse but I just feel the need to be a postwhore in this sub-forum.

I have the privilege of being friends with a nationally ranked B13 auto-x driver. He did significant asphalt skidpad testing years ago on the then new RT-215 Azenis. His testing showed once the tires reached 145degF their grip dropped significantly (greasy). Seperate discussions with Falken estimated the lowend range for competition to be 95F and below 51F to be utterly useless.

As for Matt's statement, that could be true. Honda's, Mini's, B13's etc. are all 500-1000lbs lighter. Also roadcourses are longer and faster than auto-x, but they don't generate the same cornering forces. Doubt you'll see tire pressures of 40-60lbs out there.

back to topic - maybe look for the 16x8 300ZX rims which are cheap, decent weight, and plentiful. The new RT-615 Azenis coming out now are better for heat too but lacking in Maxima sizes. 255/40/17 to start with 235/40/17 and 255/35/18 expected Q305.

 

Id go for these rims. 11lbs 15x7. Tires are cheaper in 15s. Car handles better!
Falken Hanabi. $125 or $110 bucks each.

edgeracing

look good too. Only problem, I dont know if they fit the maxima.

And I'd hesitate on azenis. A heavyer car like the max might heat em up alot faster than a honda. Next time I buy track tires, Im getting the Toyo Proxes T1-s (light *** tire) or maybe the competition Ra-1

edge racing tires

my .02

 

good find E-, they don't list them in the correct pattern, but I'd imagine that you might be able to order them from falken with a custom pattern (i.e. 5x114.3) I know Kosei and others will do this.

on a side note, good to see you are still around E-, we really need to get to the track sometime soon. should be getting my new race rubber soon after christmas. drop me a line when you are going next time.

 

The only problem I have with rims smaller than 17's, is I'm kinda stuck with the stock size rotors (or minimally larger) then.

 

Thanks D!

Good to see you on the boards too

Id be down to get to Laguna Jan 31st w/ NCRACING.org...

just gotta get some racing rubba myself!!!! What are you going for?

I just started a project and so the cash will get diverted away from debt payoffs without a doubt. The real danger however is if I test drive an Sti. How's the nissan stable? I bet your track whip is SHA-WEEET!

 

You got a point there. (Missed this post before my last reply) But if you dont already have larger rotors, you can still get good stopping with a good brake pad... if you are silly driven to be quick (like me) rotor weight also hurts handling/ acceleration... And I prefer to brake shallow/early and be quicker on the rest of the track. Seems safer. What kinda rotors you got?

 

I'd recommend staying away from the RA-1 unless your car is perfectly balanced. With the huge tendency of our cars to understeer, it puts a HUGE load on the front tires. I'm running -2.5 camber on my front wheels and I STILL chew the outside sidewall off the RA-1s, even with the front tires at 63PSI hot!

Check out the sidewall rollage here: (these pics were taken on a hot day and I set the tires to 55psi COLD before heading out on the track) I'm just waiting for a blowout!

http://mattblehm.com/pics/track_pics...4/188%2010.jpg
http://mattblehm.com/pics/track_pics...4/188%2012.jpg
http://mattblehm.com/pics/track_pics...4/188%2013.jpg

high res versions here: (about 1.9MB each)
http://mattblehm.com/pics/track_pics...s/188%2010.jpg
http://mattblehm.com/pics/track_pics...s/188%2012.jpg
http://mattblehm.com/pics/track_pics...s/188%2013.jpg

 

MAXimumHP, do the 99's come with bigger brakes than the other 4th gens? because Spaniard runs 15's on his 4th gen, and I ran Kosei K1's in 16's on my 5th gen, actually come to think of it I did test fit Spaniard's 15" Rota Slipstreams and they fit over my brakes no problem, so I highly doubt you will have an issue with smaller rims.

Dang Matt, that is alot of rollover, I guess I have only seen RA-1's on lighter cars. BTW, Matt, I am LOVIN" my BBK kit I got from you recently.

E- I am looking at the Yoko A032R's or if I get the Toyo sponsorship I am working on then I will be running the RA-1's (can't argue with free rubba)
Very interested in the 31st keep me posted.

 

Holy cat! Toyo sponsorship! Awesome stuff! props man!

I will definately keep you posted on the 31st.

Now that I think about it, I might be all right with the Falken Ziex Ze-512s that I got on the front, as long as they are predictable. They seem fairly sticky...
Im trying to think frugally- in light of the thrill is being at max adhesion not necessarily pulling .9 Gs instead of .8 ya know? and the difference is big $ (they are $50 not including shipping,etc) decisions decisions...
What would be unacceptable is an unpredictable tire. Anyway, not sure. Anyone in the thread know about the Ziex Ze-512? (sorry, tangent..)

 

Now I have stock size equipment. Brembo rotors and Metal Master pads. They held up OK at the shorter tracks I've been at, but I'd like to hit a larger track like Road America next summer and pretty sure the brakes aren't gonna hold up to well no matter what pad I use with all the high speed braking required on that track.


Same as other 4th gens, but I've been thinking about going to cobra rotors or something...

 

At Road America there is intense and fade creating braking but there is rarely an instance where it can't cool down. The only issue I can see you having with your equipment is turn one. You'll be booking in there at >140(I reached my terrible auto top speed consistantly). That is the time that a good brake is required. You can bet it will be fresh at the start of the braking zone for 1 though cause the front straight is roughly 7/10ths of a mile long. Last time I was on that track I had OEM pads. They had a real tough time in 12. Suprisingly 5 was not bad despite it being severly down hill and doing 110 at the brake zone. I could take it very fast comparatively. 6 is uphill and therefore no problem with our potential speed. 14 is uphill so its no biggy. 12 was the only problem besides the entrance to 1. All this was when I was auto so engine braking was really non-existent. You should have no problem. Just be safe in 1! There are tires and trees there if you miss.Track Map

 

They've got decent grip (I've got the 225/50-17's on the 20AE wheels) and neither I nor my wife nor either of our kids (ages 29 & 33) have been able to get them to do anything evil in ~10,000 miles. That's the good news.

But their turn-in response is a bit soft even with ZE-512's all around (and I'm up to 36, maybe 37 psi in the fronts on the street just to minimize the "softness" for daily use). I don't know if it's mostly a carcass rigidity or a tread design issue. Guess if the response improves either noticeably or not at all as the tread depth approaches the wear bars I'll have my answer (and I'll probably post it as FYI).

I've seen a few sets in various sizes on a variety of vehicles at autocrosses, though that's been more the consequences of what was on the car before auto-x'ing or forced by financial concerns rather than by active choice for that activity. Evaluations have been pretty close to unanimous that while they aren't exactly bad they aren't the hot tip for best times either. Of course, YMMV a bit on a road course where things aren't quite as busy.

Norm

 

I have seen the ZE-512 or Sumitomo HTRZ (NOT the HTRZ II) used fairly heavily with the S2000 crowd. they shave them to 4/32" and use them for track tires. They are only about 0.1s slower per lap than toyo RA-1 for about 1/2 the cost and much longer tread life.

the cheap street tires I recommend: (these are shipped prices for 235/45/17 from Discount or tirerack.. your price may vary)
Falken ZE-512... $103
Kumho 712.. $105
Kumho MX.. $137
Sumi HTRZ.. $101

Of all of those, I'm going with the Kumho MX next time. the RA-1 are awesome on stick (I can pull 1.1 G on asphalt and 1.2G on seasoned track surfaces!!!), but they will barely last me through a long track weekend before wearing through the sidewalls. the Kumho MX will supposedly last much much longer and give up only a few percent on grip. I can handle that tradeoff, especially while saving $40+ a tire.

 

for tracks.. here's a fun one..
http://hallettracing.com/trackmap.html

I have some pics somewhere of an E46 M3 out there in the rain with glowing rotors! talk about hard on brakes!

on the back straight, I hit the braking zone at about 85 or so, slowing to about 55.. around a long sweeper then it's onto the front straight.. I top out 3rd gear at about 105, then it's hard on the brakes to about 60 for turn 1. back up to about 95 going uphill and then a HARD downhill stop to 25mph for a sharp turn at the end. miss that corner, and you're in the trees. yuck.

 

Hmm, you don't make it sound too bad. But even on the smaller tracks I could take advantage of larger brakes... I suppose what I could do that would probably suffice, is just get track pads and swap for race days.

 

Thanks Norm and Matt, thats really helpful.
That looks like a rockin track, Matt. Out of curiosity, do you know the curb weight of your car? Does it have the same engine as a 4th gen?

I will take a look at Kumho MX when I am feeling a bit spendy. I just can't justify my commute on those tires, and I also cant live with the idea of using my stock rims for 99% of my driving! And I cant afford a new set of lightweight rims either as much as I would like all the options that it would open up.

Till I can get spendy it sounds like edgeracing's price on the Ziex ze-512 might be too good to resist- $58 per + 15 shipping - all the way across the country.
Plus- it's a light tire, 20.1 lbs in the 225/50/15 the lightest in that size! (compared to my old fav, the S-03 at a whoppin 25 lbs!) [one of the reasons I like edgeracing is that they have weights for everything. For some reason tho, I have to use netscape to get the site to work right.]

I think I gotta get my MEVI installed and hit Laguna Jan 31st with my current tire setup. ze-512 in the front and Firehawks in the rear (shouldnt oversteer and that it just fine by me... Oversteer = )

Oh boy I cant wait to rock the max again!!!

 

My car is around 3420 with me in it at the track.. but we're both going on diets.. I've always had my amp rack removeable and my subs are free-air so there's no huge box, but I'm designing a new baffle plate they mount to so that I can remove them from the car with just a few bolts. that will save another 50lb with the baffle and subs removed.

I've also got 100+lb of dynamat in the car that I'm removing currently.
once I get that done, I should be around 3000 dry weight and 3200 with me in it...
Of course, that just provides room for the roll cage and I'm back up to my original weight!

I have the VE30DE engine, not the VQ.. The VE is slightly less torque in the midband, but a much better top end. torque curve looks similar to the MEVI setup on a VQ, but the overall numbers are slightly different.
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/baseline_dyno.jpg
(this was over 3 years ago and all I had was an intake and advanced timing.. ran a 15.2 at the track. I've now got TONS more power mods, and run a 14.6)

 

Hey, thanks for the info Matt. You must have every power mod in the book to hit 14.6! Rock on!!!

BTW I'd really appreciate your feedback on a thread that I just started - about wheel sizes (in a/x track forum)

 

Actually, no..

When I first ran a 14.72, I only had intake, UDP, flywheel, suspension, big brakes, and heavy (24lb each!!!) wheels. and the engine has over 200k miles on it..

I've since gotten much lighter wheels, Jim Wolf ECU, and added full exhaust to the list. I make considerably more power, but the car really isn't faster in the 1/4. dunno why. maybe it was weather.

 

Great thread guys! Keep it up.