Dissapointed with cattman warranty and ypipe, long
09-01-2002, 04:51 PM
#1
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Dissapointed with cattman warranty and ypipe, (opinion changed)
I'm sure I'm not the first one with a cattman ypipe problem (96gle, got it in the groupdeal). I believed mine had the flex section problem, but it didn't. It does have the fitment problem though. I have returned the pipe to cattman to have it fixed under warranty. Well, basically Brian told me that someone either grinded down the ypipe, or it has excessive wear on it on the part that rubbed on the frame, and will not service the ypipe. I am really dissappointed with cattman, especially when I paid 400 dollars for something that you would figure at least had a decent warranty.
Read the letter he sent me back and your opinion if you have time.
Marek,
I've received your Y-pipe, but waiting almost 4 months to take it off the car and send it in has created a significant problem.
First of all, there is no issue with your flex section. There is a slight snag in the external metal fabric, but that has no effect on performance, noise, or anything else. It certainly is not leaking, as there would be a flare of exhaust soot anyplace that gasses were escaping and nothing like that is present. Additionally, the interior lining is in good shape with no evidence of separation or other flaws. There is nothing about the flex that would explain any kind of progressive noise condition. No reason for it to sound any differently from the day you put it on. A very small proportion of the Y-pipes have had flex section issues, but yours does not at this time.
The alignment issue is apparent -- noting however that this would cause some vibration but would never have any effect on the way your engine idles -- but there are two issues. First, I have no access to the repair services from the shop that originally made the pipe. Had this been returned in a timely fashion they would have been obligated to fix it at their cost. As it stands now, I can take it the company that is fabricating my pipes now, but they do not have a manufacturing fixture this will fit on -- the Y-pipe they make for me is different -- and they will charge by the hour + materials to do the job, if it can be done by them at all. I can determine if it can be fixed at all, but you will have to cover this cost.
The second aspect is that it is not just "a small dent" where it touches the car, but someone has ground away some of the steel -- its not just worn, the linear grinding mars are very apparent. [Perhaps you will argue that is not the case, but if not, the result is the same -- it was on the car long enough to almost wear through the wall of the pipe.] Denting it at the precise point of contact is a good solution and may have been what we could have done for you. Grinding down the thin tubing wall was a very poor solution and it is now too thin at that point. If we were to dent it slightly it would almost certainly crack immediately or at some point in the future. Having to replace this section will add to the complexity and expense of the repair, or may render it impossible.
So, to sum things up, between waiting four months to return the pipe and -- through grinding it down or excessive wear -- the precariously thin tubing wall at the point of contact, the circumstances now fall well outside of our warranty coverage. I will be happy to obtain an estimate of the repair cost or return the pipe to you. If you are determined to replace the flex section, the cost of that replacement will be $50.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
At 09:39 PM 4/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Brian,
I have 2 problem with my ypipe. It was ordered I guess back in last novemeber or so, during the Maxima.org group deal. I had it professionally installed at that time. Recently my exhaust started sounding funny from underneath (making a hissing noise) and I could really smell exhaust fumes. I decided to take off my ypipe and look inside. The flex section has on one side started to deteriorated and I believe it is leaking. Also, when the ypipe was installed, there were fitment issues. It fit on, but was rubbing on that long metal black bar that holds the engine down the middle. When i took it off tonight, it had a small indent on it. Also, my ypipe did make the car much noisier and gave it a rough idle (probably b/c of the rubbing). Anyways, since I know many have had such problems I would like to know how I can go about repairing this. I am concerned about the flex section and the part that was rubbing on the mount. This rubbing totally degraded the ride quality noise levels. Over a period of time I just lived with it, but after hearing that other people have ypipes with sound levels barely increasing, if at all, I thought this was a problem. Please let me know what can be done about this.
Read the letter he sent me back and your opinion if you have time.
Marek,
I've received your Y-pipe, but waiting almost 4 months to take it off the car and send it in has created a significant problem.
First of all, there is no issue with your flex section. There is a slight snag in the external metal fabric, but that has no effect on performance, noise, or anything else. It certainly is not leaking, as there would be a flare of exhaust soot anyplace that gasses were escaping and nothing like that is present. Additionally, the interior lining is in good shape with no evidence of separation or other flaws. There is nothing about the flex that would explain any kind of progressive noise condition. No reason for it to sound any differently from the day you put it on. A very small proportion of the Y-pipes have had flex section issues, but yours does not at this time.
The alignment issue is apparent -- noting however that this would cause some vibration but would never have any effect on the way your engine idles -- but there are two issues. First, I have no access to the repair services from the shop that originally made the pipe. Had this been returned in a timely fashion they would have been obligated to fix it at their cost. As it stands now, I can take it the company that is fabricating my pipes now, but they do not have a manufacturing fixture this will fit on -- the Y-pipe they make for me is different -- and they will charge by the hour + materials to do the job, if it can be done by them at all. I can determine if it can be fixed at all, but you will have to cover this cost.
The second aspect is that it is not just "a small dent" where it touches the car, but someone has ground away some of the steel -- its not just worn, the linear grinding mars are very apparent. [Perhaps you will argue that is not the case, but if not, the result is the same -- it was on the car long enough to almost wear through the wall of the pipe.] Denting it at the precise point of contact is a good solution and may have been what we could have done for you. Grinding down the thin tubing wall was a very poor solution and it is now too thin at that point. If we were to dent it slightly it would almost certainly crack immediately or at some point in the future. Having to replace this section will add to the complexity and expense of the repair, or may render it impossible.
So, to sum things up, between waiting four months to return the pipe and -- through grinding it down or excessive wear -- the precariously thin tubing wall at the point of contact, the circumstances now fall well outside of our warranty coverage. I will be happy to obtain an estimate of the repair cost or return the pipe to you. If you are determined to replace the flex section, the cost of that replacement will be $50.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
At 09:39 PM 4/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Brian,
I have 2 problem with my ypipe. It was ordered I guess back in last novemeber or so, during the Maxima.org group deal. I had it professionally installed at that time. Recently my exhaust started sounding funny from underneath (making a hissing noise) and I could really smell exhaust fumes. I decided to take off my ypipe and look inside. The flex section has on one side started to deteriorated and I believe it is leaking. Also, when the ypipe was installed, there were fitment issues. It fit on, but was rubbing on that long metal black bar that holds the engine down the middle. When i took it off tonight, it had a small indent on it. Also, my ypipe did make the car much noisier and gave it a rough idle (probably b/c of the rubbing). Anyways, since I know many have had such problems I would like to know how I can go about repairing this. I am concerned about the flex section and the part that was rubbing on the mount. This rubbing totally degraded the ride quality noise levels. Over a period of time I just lived with it, but after hearing that other people have ypipes with sound levels barely increasing, if at all, I thought this was a problem. Please let me know what can be done about this.
09-01-2002, 09:04 PM
#3
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Take the Cattman y-pipe and throw it in a ditch. It still blows me away that people buy these pipes after the constant problems experienced with them. I don't think he has any ground to stand on when he says he can't repair the alignment of your pipe because he's got a different shop fabricating his pipes. That's not your problem, it's his. It's doesn't matter how long you take to ship his pipe back, there was a problem with his workmanship therefore it's his problem. What I'm seeing from Cattman is that he's in the hole due to the flex section fiasco and constant fitment problems and now he's making lame excuses to get out of warranty work.
Spend $195 and get a WSP non-mandrel Y-pipe. Mine was flawless, fit like a glove, doesn't come remotely close to the engine cradle, and made more power and was quieter than my Stillen Y-pipe.
Dave
Spend $195 and get a WSP non-mandrel Y-pipe. Mine was flawless, fit like a glove, doesn't come remotely close to the engine cradle, and made more power and was quieter than my Stillen Y-pipe.
Dave
09-01-2002, 09:25 PM
#4
Originally posted by Dave B
Take the Cattman y-pipe and throw it in a ditch. It still blows me away that people buy these pipes after the constant problems experienced with them. I don't think he has any ground to stand on when he says he can't repair the alignment of your pipe because he's got a different shop fabricating his pipes. That's not your problem, it's his. It's doesn't matter how long you take to ship his pipe back, there was a problem with his workmanship therefore it's his problem. What I'm seeing from Cattman is that he's in the hole due to the flex section fiasco and constant fitment problems and now he's making lame excuses to get out of warranty work.
Spend $195 and get a WSP non-mandrel Y-pipe. Mine was flawless, fit like a glove, doesn't come remotely close to the engine cradle, and made more power and was quieter than my Stillen Y-pipe.
Dave
Take the Cattman y-pipe and throw it in a ditch. It still blows me away that people buy these pipes after the constant problems experienced with them. I don't think he has any ground to stand on when he says he can't repair the alignment of your pipe because he's got a different shop fabricating his pipes. That's not your problem, it's his. It's doesn't matter how long you take to ship his pipe back, there was a problem with his workmanship therefore it's his problem. What I'm seeing from Cattman is that he's in the hole due to the flex section fiasco and constant fitment problems and now he's making lame excuses to get out of warranty work.
Spend $195 and get a WSP non-mandrel Y-pipe. Mine was flawless, fit like a glove, doesn't come remotely close to the engine cradle, and made more power and was quieter than my Stillen Y-pipe.
Dave
Wish they made them for 2K-2K1's. They've been "coming soon" for about a year and a half now!
09-01-2002, 09:50 PM
#5
I'd have to agree. This is not your problem, it's Cattmans. It doesn't matter unless stated in a contract when you return this pipe. The fact still remains that it doesn't fit. Hope Cattman reads this and rethinks the way he goes about customer service. Goodluck man.
09-01-2002, 11:37 PM
#6
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Originally posted by NISMO808
I'd have to agree. This is not your problem, it's Cattmans. It doesn't matter unless stated in a contract when you return this pipe. The fact still remains that it doesn't fit. Hope Cattman reads this and rethinks the way he goes about customer service. Goodluck man.
I'd have to agree. This is not your problem, it's Cattmans. It doesn't matter unless stated in a contract when you return this pipe. The fact still remains that it doesn't fit. Hope Cattman reads this and rethinks the way he goes about customer service. Goodluck man.
Here is the response I got. He's trying to work with me, but I still don't agree that I am liable for it.
In a message dated 9/1/2002 11:36:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cattmanperformance@earthlink.net writes:
Marek, my comments are interspersed with yours...
At 07:44 PM 9/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Brian,
I apologize for the delay of shipping the ypipe. However, the pipe has been off the car since my email to you, but I have been too busy to mail it out. I wasn't certain that the flex lining was messed up, but I did see very snall parts of it being undone inside. If this does not constitute a failing flex section of the ypipe, then I was wrong.
I'll look at that aspect again, with more attention to the interior. Could have missed something and this is a critical area. Know that our policy of fixing these remains absolutely in effect. If I can discern even early signs of failure, I will replace it.
As far as the fitment problem, that was clearly evident. The actual idle of my car is not affected, but its the rubbing of the pipe on the long metal frame (the part that runs from the front of the engine that has the two motor mounts on it) created interior noise through what I guess you would call "resonance."
Agreed, no question about the alignment problem. This is the only batch of pipes this every occurred with, and your description of the conflict is accurate. We're on the same page in terms of vibration or resonance
I had the pipe on the car I guess you could say about a half a year, since the group deal, until I emailed you. The ypipe was not adjusted in anyway, that includes denting, sanding, or grinding in any way whatsoever. I had the pipe professionally installed in my local muffler shop. I had paid 80 dollars to have this done. I was even told once the pipe was installed that it wasn't a perfect fit. I assumed it was okay since other "org" members have had this problem. The reason you probably see the pipe "grinded" away is because it was rubbing on the frame. Clearly you must know that exhausts on cars do move to a certain extent, and it is not difficult to conclude that if something rubs on a surface, it will slowly wear away.
The grinding was my impression, but as I indicated, I couldn't be absolutely confident about this. Realizing how long it was on your car adds credence to your account. That said, how it became thin there is not the issue, but the fact that it is thin is the problematic result. It is possible that we could build that up with a TIG welding bead, and I'll find out if such a thing is feasible. Hopefully so, replacing that bent section of pipe would be an issue.
I realize that switching manufacturers for you creates a problem, but it is not my problem. My y-pipe is still not a year old, and therefore should be covered under warranty. I'm sorry that I took so long to get this pipe to you. I suggestif you are still not convinced that the ypipe was not grinded down that you have the pipe installed on a 96 maxima gle, just like mine, and see for yourself.
Not an issue, the problem is clear, and the issue of how the tubing wall became thin is moot.
Honestly, I could not imagine why a person (me in this case) would try to fix a product that costs 400 dollars and void a warranty, when he could return it for service under warranty. I would like to leave the flex section the way it is - thank you for correcting me in my belief that it had failed.
Again, the flex would not be your issue, let me look at the interior very carefully.
As far as your warranty issue, I think you should reconsider your decision. If you guys knew there were fitment problems with your ypipes, I can't believe that mine just happens to fall outside of that. Please get back to me when you can.
There are two types of warranty issues, problems that are immediately apparent (like the mis-alignment of your pipe) and problems that occur over time (like a failed flex section). Your responsibility was to return the pipe in a timely manner after the problem was recognized (by you) and acknowledged (by me). The solution will depend entirely on 1) If the pipe can be fixed by my current fabricator, and 2) how much that will cost. You issue does not "just fall outside" of our coverage. I fixed almost 20 of these pipes between November 2001 and May 2002 and I've not dealt with one since. Cattman Performance, like most manufacturers, has a policy requiring that parts with initial defects be returned within 30 days, and I haven't even mentioned limiting our warranty on that basis, which I think is more than reasonable on my part. You are attempting to fix a defect under warranty that was apparent during the initial installation (as you note), 10 months after the fact.
I will try to be flexible, but there are three potential outcomes, none of which can be foreseen until my fabricators have a chance to examine the part. From most to least desirable (for you) they are: 1) the part can be repaired at reasonable cost (as opposed to free, which it would have been if you'd returned the pipe in reasonable time -- keep in mind that your "not getting around to it" is the determinant in shifting the cost from the responsible party to me -- and no, I do not agree you should be held harmless in this!), which I deem to be $50 and I will pay; or 2) its over $50 and you will pay the difference if you want the part fixed; or 3) they cannot rectify the problem at any cost, in which case I will offer you a discount on a new pipe or I will ship yours back at my cost.
That's the deal, given the circumstances and your inaction I think it is generous on my part, and unless something unforeseen comes up it is not negotiable.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
HERE IS WHAT I JUST REPLIED TO HIM.
Brian, thanks for your prompt response. I understand what you're coming from in the points you've made. I realize you run a business and I am your customer. The fact that it has been 10 months since the purchase of my y-pipe and 4 since I had last written to you should not disqualify me from being covered under the warranty since the ypipe has been off the car since that email. As far as the flex section goes, it is possible it was "wearing" out but since I took it off the car, there was no further strain on it beside the fact that it has been laying in a box for four months. Brian, it is not my fault that your company had switched providers for the manufacturing of your ypipes, and that if I had returned it earlier this wouldn't have been a problem. Realize that charging me the 50 or 100 bucks might cost you that same amount or more in the future in profits. If you are fair-dealing with me and take care of things the way they should be, I will be a happy customer and will recommend you to others, but if its the other way around, I will not support your business in any way. Its nothing personal, its only fair. Hopefully we can get this resolved smoothly. Please let me know what you feel my options are. Incase you happen to read the forums, I did start a thread on my topic just to see what others think. I didn't do it in anyway to harm your business or your reputation.
Thanks
MB
09-02-2002, 01:04 AM
#7
Originally posted by Dave B
Take the Cattman y-pipe and throw it in a ditch. It still blows me away that people buy these pipes after the constant problems experienced with them. I don't think he has any ground to stand on when he says he can't repair the alignment of your pipe because he's got a different shop fabricating his pipes. That's not your problem, it's his. It's doesn't matter how long you take to ship his pipe back, there was a problem with his workmanship therefore it's his problem. What I'm seeing from Cattman is that he's in the hole due to the flex section fiasco and constant fitment problems and now he's making lame excuses to get out of warranty work.
Spend $195 and get a WSP non-mandrel Y-pipe. Mine was flawless, fit like a glove, doesn't come remotely close to the engine cradle, and made more power and was quieter than my Stillen Y-pipe.
Dave
Take the Cattman y-pipe and throw it in a ditch. It still blows me away that people buy these pipes after the constant problems experienced with them. I don't think he has any ground to stand on when he says he can't repair the alignment of your pipe because he's got a different shop fabricating his pipes. That's not your problem, it's his. It's doesn't matter how long you take to ship his pipe back, there was a problem with his workmanship therefore it's his problem. What I'm seeing from Cattman is that he's in the hole due to the flex section fiasco and constant fitment problems and now he's making lame excuses to get out of warranty work.
Spend $195 and get a WSP non-mandrel Y-pipe. Mine was flawless, fit like a glove, doesn't come remotely close to the engine cradle, and made more power and was quieter than my Stillen Y-pipe.
Dave
This entire alignment issue relates to one batch of bad 50 pipes I lost thousands of dollar on in November of 2001. This alignment problem had never come up before and it resulted in the termination of our business relationship with the fabricator, MaxRev, of Phoenix. They never made another pipe for us and it took 6 months before I could find a fabricator good enouth to get back online with Y-pipes. We did not copy the old pipes, we redesigned them from the ground up.
Now they are made by a quality firm here in Tucson that specializes in aerospace and medical instrumentation machining. The 1995-1998 pipes and the 1999-2000 Federal-spec Y-pipes they make for us are FLAWLESS! Constant fitment problems huh? Back up your statement big mouth -- I challenge you to find a single example of our 2002 pipes that has had a problem -- we have sold over 50 of them.
As far as the flex issue goes, that happened to Cattman and Stillen but we were the only one to back them up. In the hole due to this problem? You don't know squat, we have fixed every pipe that has come back to us, yet they represent less than 2% of out total sales and at this point we repair less than 1 a month. We bit the bullit and did the honorable thing, but that hardly put us in the hole.
Put the Y-pipe we sell alongside the mild steel, non-mandrel bent (you've got to be kidding, now there's an eye for quality features) WSP pipe anyday -- there's no aspect of that comparison that I'm not proud of.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
09-02-2002, 02:37 AM
#8
Re: Dissapointed with cattman warranty and ypipe, long
I just love to see my private correspondence paraded across the forum without permission...
Another case of "you'd better take care of me or I'll hurt your business on the forum" blackmail -- that was the last message I received from Marek Biestek. How about just working the thing through and then reporting on it? What is lost on people who spout off prematurely like this is that they've already done the harm, and their threat becomes empty as a result. We don't respond to threats, we do the right thing but won't let ourselves get screwed, and I will outline the salient facts and the rationale of our position in the text that follows.
To put this issue in context, there was unquestionably a significant alignment issue that affected some pieces in a batch of over 50 Y-pipes we received last November. We'd had fitment issues that had popped up prior to that, but this alignment issue only came up in this single production run, but admittedly one of the biggest nightmares I've dealt with in the history of my business.
Also note that I told Marek (before I knew of his taste for sensationalism) that if there was the slightest indication of flex failure that it would be replaced at no cost -- I see no such indication but have offered to closely examine the pipe again. Nothing discussed here will affect that position in any way.
Cattman Performance and just about every other performance parts manufacturer have warranty policies that cover anything that goes wrong over the first 12 months. But at the same time, there is a typically a policy that says that defects that are obviously present when new (like this one) must be identified within 30 days (although that has never been raised as an issue with my customers) so they can be fixed promptly by the manufacturer and before further damage can occur.
Marek acknowledges that he knew there was a problem with the alignment when the part was put on 10 months ago. Everyone else with this problem contacted me within the first month or two. He left it on the car for 6 more months before writing, to the point where it almost wore through the metal. He wrote to me in April to ask about the problem. I said nothing about it being on the car for 6 months already, instead I authorized the return and told him to call our order line for a call tag so that we could quickly pick it up and fix it, because at that time the original manufacturer was doing the repairs at their expense.
Instead he waits four more months to send it in, admitting that its been off his car the entire time and he "just didn't get around to it". He never even called to get it picked up, we couldn't have made it any easier for him. Over the intervening months, we severed our business relationship with the #&^#&%$ manufacturer that made the defective pipes in November (leaving this and any other fitment issues behind) and eventually had the pipe redesigned and fabricated by a fantastic company here in Tucson. [See my comments farther along the thread -- over 50 of the new style sold and not one complaint -- they ALL fit perfectly.]
Because we've totally redesigned (and improved) our new Y-pipes, the new ($3000) manufacturing fixture will not fit the old style pipe to fix a complicated alignment issue (though we do have a good technique for replacing flexes on the old pipes). It may be possible for my current fabricator to fix it or they may not be able to -- Marek didn't wait to find out before sharing this with the rest of you -- but the issue is greatly complicated by the fact that a section of tubing will likely have to be replaced, or painstakingly built up with a TIG welding bead because it nearly wore through after 6 months of use and because that section has an old-design mandrel bend integral to it. If the reader cannot picture why this would be difficult, it is because the process is not understood, not because I am not being truthful.
I told Mr. Biestek to call so we could arrange a pickup at our expense last April, because at that time it would have been repaired at the expense of the fabricator on the original manufacturing jig -- as it should be. Solely as a result of his "not getting around to it", I cannot shift the expense where it belongs, to the company that made it. So this is just my tough luck? Sorry, but this goes beyond simple warranty issues, which we stand solidly behind.
It IS the customer's responsiblity to get a known defect fixed before the problem worsens or any of the other issues that can arise, particularly since we fully discussed it in April. I offered to pick it up with a call tag, and get everything taken care of.
I'll determine whether or not his pipe can be fixed with the repair resources that are available to me. As I've told him already, if I can get it fixed for a reasonable price ($50 or so) I'm willing to spring for it, no problem. [In other words there is a good possiblity that this will all be fixed without any cost.] If its more than $50 he pays the difference. If it cannot be fixed at all, he will be offered a substantial discount on a new pipe. This is far more than most performance parts firms would do.
These are extraordinary circumstances, and I do not believe that I am being unreasonable. I feel compelled to present our side of the story. Whether or not the reader feels the same way is up to them.
We take care of every warranty issue that can be reasonably accomodated, often going beyond the call like extending our warranty period to 18 months for the infamous flex section issues (compared with a a far larger parts retailer refused to fix their collapsed flexes at all). That said, we do not allow ourselve to be taken advantage of as a matter of principal, whether it generates a tempest or not.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skeelo34
[B]I'm sure I'm not the first one with a cattman ypipe problem (96gle, got it in the groupdeal). I believed mine had the flex section problem, but it didn't. It does have the fitment problem though. I have returned the pipe to cattman to have it fixed under warranty. Well, basically Brian told me that someone either grinded down the ypipe, or it has excessive wear on it on the part that rubbed on the frame, and will not service the ypipe. I am really dissappointed with cattman, especially when I paid 400 dollars for something that you would figure at least had a decent warranty.
Read the letter he sent me back and your opinion if you have time.
{refer to first post for this information.]
Another case of "you'd better take care of me or I'll hurt your business on the forum" blackmail -- that was the last message I received from Marek Biestek. How about just working the thing through and then reporting on it? What is lost on people who spout off prematurely like this is that they've already done the harm, and their threat becomes empty as a result. We don't respond to threats, we do the right thing but won't let ourselves get screwed, and I will outline the salient facts and the rationale of our position in the text that follows.
To put this issue in context, there was unquestionably a significant alignment issue that affected some pieces in a batch of over 50 Y-pipes we received last November. We'd had fitment issues that had popped up prior to that, but this alignment issue only came up in this single production run, but admittedly one of the biggest nightmares I've dealt with in the history of my business.
Also note that I told Marek (before I knew of his taste for sensationalism) that if there was the slightest indication of flex failure that it would be replaced at no cost -- I see no such indication but have offered to closely examine the pipe again. Nothing discussed here will affect that position in any way.
Cattman Performance and just about every other performance parts manufacturer have warranty policies that cover anything that goes wrong over the first 12 months. But at the same time, there is a typically a policy that says that defects that are obviously present when new (like this one) must be identified within 30 days (although that has never been raised as an issue with my customers) so they can be fixed promptly by the manufacturer and before further damage can occur.
Marek acknowledges that he knew there was a problem with the alignment when the part was put on 10 months ago. Everyone else with this problem contacted me within the first month or two. He left it on the car for 6 more months before writing, to the point where it almost wore through the metal. He wrote to me in April to ask about the problem. I said nothing about it being on the car for 6 months already, instead I authorized the return and told him to call our order line for a call tag so that we could quickly pick it up and fix it, because at that time the original manufacturer was doing the repairs at their expense.
Instead he waits four more months to send it in, admitting that its been off his car the entire time and he "just didn't get around to it". He never even called to get it picked up, we couldn't have made it any easier for him. Over the intervening months, we severed our business relationship with the #&^#&%$ manufacturer that made the defective pipes in November (leaving this and any other fitment issues behind) and eventually had the pipe redesigned and fabricated by a fantastic company here in Tucson. [See my comments farther along the thread -- over 50 of the new style sold and not one complaint -- they ALL fit perfectly.]
Because we've totally redesigned (and improved) our new Y-pipes, the new ($3000) manufacturing fixture will not fit the old style pipe to fix a complicated alignment issue (though we do have a good technique for replacing flexes on the old pipes). It may be possible for my current fabricator to fix it or they may not be able to -- Marek didn't wait to find out before sharing this with the rest of you -- but the issue is greatly complicated by the fact that a section of tubing will likely have to be replaced, or painstakingly built up with a TIG welding bead because it nearly wore through after 6 months of use and because that section has an old-design mandrel bend integral to it. If the reader cannot picture why this would be difficult, it is because the process is not understood, not because I am not being truthful.
I told Mr. Biestek to call so we could arrange a pickup at our expense last April, because at that time it would have been repaired at the expense of the fabricator on the original manufacturing jig -- as it should be. Solely as a result of his "not getting around to it", I cannot shift the expense where it belongs, to the company that made it. So this is just my tough luck? Sorry, but this goes beyond simple warranty issues, which we stand solidly behind.
It IS the customer's responsiblity to get a known defect fixed before the problem worsens or any of the other issues that can arise, particularly since we fully discussed it in April. I offered to pick it up with a call tag, and get everything taken care of.
I'll determine whether or not his pipe can be fixed with the repair resources that are available to me. As I've told him already, if I can get it fixed for a reasonable price ($50 or so) I'm willing to spring for it, no problem. [In other words there is a good possiblity that this will all be fixed without any cost.] If its more than $50 he pays the difference. If it cannot be fixed at all, he will be offered a substantial discount on a new pipe. This is far more than most performance parts firms would do.
These are extraordinary circumstances, and I do not believe that I am being unreasonable. I feel compelled to present our side of the story. Whether or not the reader feels the same way is up to them.
We take care of every warranty issue that can be reasonably accomodated, often going beyond the call like extending our warranty period to 18 months for the infamous flex section issues (compared with a a far larger parts retailer refused to fix their collapsed flexes at all). That said, we do not allow ourselve to be taken advantage of as a matter of principal, whether it generates a tempest or not.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skeelo34
[B]I'm sure I'm not the first one with a cattman ypipe problem (96gle, got it in the groupdeal). I believed mine had the flex section problem, but it didn't. It does have the fitment problem though. I have returned the pipe to cattman to have it fixed under warranty. Well, basically Brian told me that someone either grinded down the ypipe, or it has excessive wear on it on the part that rubbed on the frame, and will not service the ypipe. I am really dissappointed with cattman, especially when I paid 400 dollars for something that you would figure at least had a decent warranty.
Read the letter he sent me back and your opinion if you have time.
{refer to first post for this information.]
09-02-2002, 02:58 AM
#9
Originally posted by sleepermax
Wish they made them for 2K-2K1's. They've been "coming soon" for about a year and a half now!
Wish they made them for 2K-2K1's. They've been "coming soon" for about a year and a half now!
Well, that's the good news. The 2000-2001 Cattman CA/NLEV pipes started shipping last week. They fit great -- the master mechanic who did the final test fit said he could have thrown it on for a perfect fit from 10 feet away. An obvious exaggeration, but he was awed by the part and it illustrates the capabilities of Argus Machine, here in Tucson, the ISO9000-certified aerospace company that was good enough to design and manufacture these for me.
$375, in stock, ready to go, and the best Maxima Y-pipe available anywhere. Made from T-304 Stainless steel tubing that was formed at the Rath Mill and mandrel bent by Burns Stainless -- both the best in the business. CNC-machined 3/8" flanges, not the primitive flame-cut type. The only welds are at the flanges and the collector. Speaking of collector, this is a race-grade, 15 degree merge collector that is exclusive to Cattman Performance's Maxima Y-pipes. The collector is the most critical subcompnent in a Y-pipe for horsepower maximization; compare ours with the crude swaged metal collectors (a piece of tubing that has simply been stretched open at one end, generating massive turbulence because it lacks any merge element) used by ALL of our competition.
Yes, you can pay less, but you'll find no better value.
Part #YG5-CA, available 8-5MST, M-F through the Cattman order line, 800.795.1513.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
09-02-2002, 09:11 AM
#11
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Queens, NYC
Posts: 1,527
Brian, I did not post in this forum to threaten your business. I was really disappointed when I started getting a run around from you. Also, I did not get offered for the shipping to be paid. I called your company number and I was told to ship it back. Noone mentioned to me then that shipping would be paid for.
As far as the fitment problem, I didn't give it too much concern b/c alot of people on this board experienced the same. I had no clue that the ypipe would be damaged. As far as me telling you the problem and not doing anything for four months does not disqualify me from warranty since its still within 12 months. Hadn't you changed your supplier, I'm sure you wouldn't give me this hassle. I do not know what the law is for a product under warranty, but I would be surprised to see that my assumption is wrong.
Edit:
The original email sent to me by Brian stated for me to call and ask for a calltag. I did not remember to do so, and was simply instructed by the lady who answers the phone to mail the ypipe to an address. I guess if I had asked I could have had it shipped free.
As far as the fitment problem, I didn't give it too much concern b/c alot of people on this board experienced the same. I had no clue that the ypipe would be damaged. As far as me telling you the problem and not doing anything for four months does not disqualify me from warranty since its still within 12 months. Hadn't you changed your supplier, I'm sure you wouldn't give me this hassle. I do not know what the law is for a product under warranty, but I would be surprised to see that my assumption is wrong.
Edit:
The original email sent to me by Brian stated for me to call and ask for a calltag. I did not remember to do so, and was simply instructed by the lady who answers the phone to mail the ypipe to an address. I guess if I had asked I could have had it shipped free.
09-02-2002, 10:43 AM
#13
Originally posted by Cattman
Well, that's the good news. The 2000-2001 Cattman CA/NLEV pipes started shipping last week. They fit great -- the master mechanic who did the final test fit said he could have thrown it on for a perfect fit from 10 feet away. An obvious exaggeration, but he was awed by the part and it illustrates the capabilities of Argus Machine, here in Tucson, the ISO9000-certified aerospace company that was good enough to design and manufacture these for me.
$375, in stock, ready to go, and the best Maxima Y-pipe available anywhere. Made from T-304 Stainless steel tubing that was formed at the Rath Mill and mandrel bent by Burns Stainless -- both the best in the business. CNC-machined 3/8" flanges, not the primitive flame-cut type. The only welds are at the flanges and the collector. Speaking of collector, this is a race-grade, 15 degree merge collector that is exclusive to Cattman Performance's Maxima Y-pipes. The collector is the most critical subcompnent in a Y-pipe for horsepower maximization; compare ours with the crude swaged metal collectors (a piece of tubing that has simply been stretched open at one end, generating massive turbulence because it lacks any merge element) used by ALL of our competition.
Yes, you can pay less, but you'll find no better value.
Part #YG5-CA, available 8-5MST, M-F through the Cattman order line, 800.795.1513.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Well, that's the good news. The 2000-2001 Cattman CA/NLEV pipes started shipping last week. They fit great -- the master mechanic who did the final test fit said he could have thrown it on for a perfect fit from 10 feet away. An obvious exaggeration, but he was awed by the part and it illustrates the capabilities of Argus Machine, here in Tucson, the ISO9000-certified aerospace company that was good enough to design and manufacture these for me.
$375, in stock, ready to go, and the best Maxima Y-pipe available anywhere. Made from T-304 Stainless steel tubing that was formed at the Rath Mill and mandrel bent by Burns Stainless -- both the best in the business. CNC-machined 3/8" flanges, not the primitive flame-cut type. The only welds are at the flanges and the collector. Speaking of collector, this is a race-grade, 15 degree merge collector that is exclusive to Cattman Performance's Maxima Y-pipes. The collector is the most critical subcompnent in a Y-pipe for horsepower maximization; compare ours with the crude swaged metal collectors (a piece of tubing that has simply been stretched open at one end, generating massive turbulence because it lacks any merge element) used by ALL of our competition.
Yes, you can pay less, but you'll find no better value.
Part #YG5-CA, available 8-5MST, M-F through the Cattman order line, 800.795.1513.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Brian, I'm very interested but would like to see a picture of it first (I'm assuming the pic on your site is of the old design, since it has several welds). Do you have any pics available?
09-02-2002, 07:25 PM
#14
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally posted by Cattman
Ah, the presumptive wisdom of the profoundly uninformed...
This entire alignment issue relates to one batch of bad 50 pipes I lost thousands of dollar on in November of 2001. This alignment problem had never come up before and it resulted in the termination of our business relationship with the fabricator, MaxRev, of Phoenix. They never made another pipe for us and it took 6 months before I could find a fabricator good enouth to get back online with Y-pipes. We did not copy the old pipes, we redesigned them from the ground up.
Now they are made by a quality firm here in Tucson that specializes in aerospace and medical instrumentation machining. The 1995-1998 pipes and the 1999-2000 Federal-spec Y-pipes they make for us are FLAWLESS! Constant fitment problems huh? Back up your statement big mouth -- I challenge you to find a single example of our 2002 pipes that has had a problem -- we have sold over 50 of them.
As far as the flex issue goes, that happened to Cattman and Stillen but we were the only one to back them up. In the hole due to this problem? You don't know squat, we have fixed every pipe that has come back to us, yet they represent less than 2% of out total sales and at this point we repair less than 1 a month. We bit the bullit and did the honorable thing, but that hardly put us in the hole.
Put the Y-pipe we sell alongside the mild steel, non-mandrel bent (you've got to be kidding, now there's an eye for quality features) WSP pipe anyday -- there's no aspect of that comparison that I'm not proud of.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Ah, the presumptive wisdom of the profoundly uninformed...
This entire alignment issue relates to one batch of bad 50 pipes I lost thousands of dollar on in November of 2001. This alignment problem had never come up before and it resulted in the termination of our business relationship with the fabricator, MaxRev, of Phoenix. They never made another pipe for us and it took 6 months before I could find a fabricator good enouth to get back online with Y-pipes. We did not copy the old pipes, we redesigned them from the ground up.
Now they are made by a quality firm here in Tucson that specializes in aerospace and medical instrumentation machining. The 1995-1998 pipes and the 1999-2000 Federal-spec Y-pipes they make for us are FLAWLESS! Constant fitment problems huh? Back up your statement big mouth -- I challenge you to find a single example of our 2002 pipes that has had a problem -- we have sold over 50 of them.
As far as the flex issue goes, that happened to Cattman and Stillen but we were the only one to back them up. In the hole due to this problem? You don't know squat, we have fixed every pipe that has come back to us, yet they represent less than 2% of out total sales and at this point we repair less than 1 a month. We bit the bullit and did the honorable thing, but that hardly put us in the hole.
Put the Y-pipe we sell alongside the mild steel, non-mandrel bent (you've got to be kidding, now there's an eye for quality features) WSP pipe anyday -- there's no aspect of that comparison that I'm not proud of.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
You cannot be honest when you say there were only 50 pipes that suffered from alignment issues. Seriously, I've been on this Org since early 1998 and I've read about the constant problems with your y-pipes not fitting correctly. Are you daring me to post the wealth of information concerning the fitment issues with you pipes? I've constantly read about guys using pry bars and sledges to get your pipes to fit correctly without touching the engine cradle or aligning the pipes to fit to the cat and/or manifolds. Think of the disappoint/fright of the buyer when they have to watch a mechanic beat on his high dollar/high quality (?) y-pipe. There are plenty out there that have had no problems with you y-pipes, but you've got to admit your pipes have suffered from fitment problems far more than any other in the market, by a long shot.
I'm sure many are glad to hear that you've switched contractors to build your y-pipes in an effort to remedy your fitment problems. That's dandy that you're using an aerospace and medical instrumentation machining firm to build your pipes, but WSP doesn't use a a fancy company to build their perfectly fitting Y-pipes.
The lack of "soot" around a flex section leak does not guarentee that the flex is not leaking. I've had exhaust leaks on my cars, before the cat, along the B-pipe, and by the muffler and I rarely saw carbon buildup. The only real way to test to run your hand over the suspected area and feel for hot air. I've personally seen two of your Y-pipes at WSP with blown flex sections and I didn't see any carbon buildup on the outside even though the flex was clearly leaking (we could see daylight) and bunched up. Your flex sections are nothing like Stillens. One of your biggest design flaws was a extremely short flex section (1/2 the size of the Stillen, nearly 3 times shorter than WSP). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a FWD engine torques very hard and puts a lot of stress on the flex plus the shorter the flex, the more vibration is transmitted thru the exhaust and motor. Ahhh..vibration, another typical problem with your Y-pipes. Look at the factory flex length. I suggest you copy it.
I happily admit that WSP y-pipes aren't works of art, but I buy products that are focused more on function than form. My ugly WSP non-mandrel alumnized Y-pipe with it's ugly welds and such fit like a glove the first time and looks exactly like it did when I installed it last November. The pipe went thru a brutal salty Midwest winter and shows abosolutely no signs of corrosion. It fits right, it's damn quiet, doesn't cause any vibration, and it made a bit more power than my mandrel bent Stillen Y-pipe. I couldn't be happier.
As for Marek-
It's not his problem that you've changed fabricators using a different jig. It's your problem. For all the time effort of inspecting his Y-pipe, getting costs to fix to misaligned pipe, etc, you could have just given the guy a new Y-pipe and called it a day. Customer service should be job one.
As for him quoting your replys, suck it up and quite your whining. You've got a business and consumers have a right to publish anything to write. He didn't misqoute you.
I'm done with this subject.
Dave
09-02-2002, 09:02 PM
#15
Originally posted by Dave B
Brian-
You cannot be honest when you say there were only 50 pipes that suffered from alignment issues. Seriously, I've been on this Org since early 1998 and I've read about the constant problems with your y-pipes not fitting correctly. Are you daring me to post the wealth of information concerning the fitment issues with you pipes? I've constantly read about guys using pry bars and sledges to get your pipes to fit correctly without touching the engine cradle or aligning the pipes to fit to the cat and/or manifolds. Think of the disappoint/fright of the buyer when they have to watch a mechanic beat on his high dollar/high quality (?) y-pipe. There are plenty out there that have had no problems with you y-pipes, but you've got to admit your pipes have suffered from fitment problems far more than any other in the market, by a long shot.
I'm sure many are glad to hear that you've switched contractors to build your y-pipes in an effort to remedy your fitment problems. That's dandy that you're using an aerospace and medical instrumentation machining firm to build your pipes, but WSP doesn't use a a fancy company to build their perfectly fitting Y-pipes.
The lack of "soot" around a flex section leak does not guarentee that the flex is not leaking. I've had exhaust leaks on my cars, before the cat, along the B-pipe, and by the muffler and I rarely saw carbon buildup. The only real way to test to run your hand over the suspected area and feel for hot air. I've personally seen two of your Y-pipes at WSP with blown flex sections and I didn't see any carbon buildup on the outside even though the flex was clearly leaking (we could see daylight) and bunched up. Your flex sections are nothing like Stillens. One of your biggest design flaws was a extremely short flex section (1/2 the size of the Stillen, nearly 3 times shorter than WSP). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a FWD engine torques very hard and puts a lot of stress on the flex plus the shorter the flex, the more vibration is transmitted thru the exhaust and motor. Ahhh..vibration, another typical problem with your Y-pipes. Look at the factory flex length. I suggest you copy it.
I happily admit that WSP y-pipes aren't works of art, but I buy products that are focused more on function than form. My ugly WSP non-mandrel alumnized Y-pipe with it's ugly welds and such fit like a glove the first time and looks exactly like it did when I installed it last November. The pipe went thru a brutal salty Midwest winter and shows abosolutely no signs of corrosion. It fits right, it's damn quiet, doesn't cause any vibration, and it made a bit more power than my mandrel bent Stillen Y-pipe. I couldn't be happier.
As for Marek-
It's not his problem that you've changed fabricators using a different jig. It's your problem. For all the time effort of inspecting his Y-pipe, getting costs to fix to misaligned pipe, etc, you could have just given the guy a new Y-pipe and called it a day. Customer service should be job one.
As for him quoting your replys, suck it up and quite your whining. You've got a business and consumers have a right to publish anything to write. He didn't misqoute you.
I'm done with this subject.
Dave
Brian-
You cannot be honest when you say there were only 50 pipes that suffered from alignment issues. Seriously, I've been on this Org since early 1998 and I've read about the constant problems with your y-pipes not fitting correctly. Are you daring me to post the wealth of information concerning the fitment issues with you pipes? I've constantly read about guys using pry bars and sledges to get your pipes to fit correctly without touching the engine cradle or aligning the pipes to fit to the cat and/or manifolds. Think of the disappoint/fright of the buyer when they have to watch a mechanic beat on his high dollar/high quality (?) y-pipe. There are plenty out there that have had no problems with you y-pipes, but you've got to admit your pipes have suffered from fitment problems far more than any other in the market, by a long shot.
I'm sure many are glad to hear that you've switched contractors to build your y-pipes in an effort to remedy your fitment problems. That's dandy that you're using an aerospace and medical instrumentation machining firm to build your pipes, but WSP doesn't use a a fancy company to build their perfectly fitting Y-pipes.
The lack of "soot" around a flex section leak does not guarentee that the flex is not leaking. I've had exhaust leaks on my cars, before the cat, along the B-pipe, and by the muffler and I rarely saw carbon buildup. The only real way to test to run your hand over the suspected area and feel for hot air. I've personally seen two of your Y-pipes at WSP with blown flex sections and I didn't see any carbon buildup on the outside even though the flex was clearly leaking (we could see daylight) and bunched up. Your flex sections are nothing like Stillens. One of your biggest design flaws was a extremely short flex section (1/2 the size of the Stillen, nearly 3 times shorter than WSP). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a FWD engine torques very hard and puts a lot of stress on the flex plus the shorter the flex, the more vibration is transmitted thru the exhaust and motor. Ahhh..vibration, another typical problem with your Y-pipes. Look at the factory flex length. I suggest you copy it.
I happily admit that WSP y-pipes aren't works of art, but I buy products that are focused more on function than form. My ugly WSP non-mandrel alumnized Y-pipe with it's ugly welds and such fit like a glove the first time and looks exactly like it did when I installed it last November. The pipe went thru a brutal salty Midwest winter and shows abosolutely no signs of corrosion. It fits right, it's damn quiet, doesn't cause any vibration, and it made a bit more power than my mandrel bent Stillen Y-pipe. I couldn't be happier.
As for Marek-
It's not his problem that you've changed fabricators using a different jig. It's your problem. For all the time effort of inspecting his Y-pipe, getting costs to fix to misaligned pipe, etc, you could have just given the guy a new Y-pipe and called it a day. Customer service should be job one.
As for him quoting your replys, suck it up and quite your whining. You've got a business and consumers have a right to publish anything to write. He didn't misqoute you.
I'm done with this subject.
Dave
Hey Dave - I've got a question for you since you seem to have a good line of communication with WSP. When are they really going to come out with a pipe for 2K-2K1's? I've got a Stillen pipe currently but it's pretty obvious they made some compromises in their one-fits-all design. I appreciate you standing up for these guys and I'm not looking for a WSP vs Cattman vs Stillen answer. But my experience with WSP has been poor at best. I had a B pipe on order and finally cancelled it because they could never give me a straight answer on when it would ship.
09-03-2002, 02:35 AM
#17
Do not question my honesty or suggest that I'm lying when you have no basis for doing so. Read what I wrote, its exactly what I meant and there's nothing dishonest about it. We'd had occaisional fitment issues come up in 2001 and before, but the batch last November was the only one with the severe alignment issue experienced by Marek. [It didn't involve the crossmember, the contact point is on the opposite side of the pipe.]
At one time we had a Y-pipe return rate of 2-3% -- about average -- and you try to claim are this rate is "far more than any other in the market, by a long shot"... Its tough to imagine any subject that you could know any less about. Your bias for your buddies at WSP is obvious, but don't pretend that you offer any kind of objective voice on this subject.
We sell a lot of Y-pipes, and I guarantee we would have gone out of business a long time ago if installation required a sledge hammer. Causing our customers "disappointment/fright"? what a melodramatic bunch of crap. I couldn't count the number of emails I get from customers who have been disappointed by my competitors due to specific product issues or a realization that they just didn't get much value for what they spent.
Sure, we've committed our share of errors over the five years we've been developing and providing parts for the Maxima community, but a good part of that can be attributed to the fact that Cattman Performance takes risks and develops parts first for the Maxima. Stillen might have developed more performance parts first for the Maxima (in my book, they can't be copies and they have to make power to count as original developments), but aside from the supercharger and the first CA/NLEV y-pipe, its tough to identify significant "firsts". To put it in scale, Stillen had over 100 employees the last time I checked. Cattman Performance has zero. No risks = fewer mistakes = BORING; fine for some, but that's not why I went into business.
Either through development or sponsorship, Cattman Performance is responsible for the first Maxima:
1. commercially available gen4 y-pipe,
2. gen3 y-pipe,
3. stainless steel Y-pipe,
4. supercharger Y-pipe,
5. CAI,
6. Y-pipe tuned catback exhaust,
7. Quaife differential,
8. motor mounts,
9. full coilover suspension (2 generations and a third due shortly),
10. AGX struts that fit the 2000+ Maxima,
11. soon-to-be-released titanium-based FSTB.
(and more on the way...)
That's over ten complete performance parts systems, not including innumerable improvements and design revisions and a number of parts that we have developed improved versions of, like our upcoming Cattman rear sway bar.
You hang around WSP a lot, Mark, what kind of risk-taking are they doing down there? Lets see, they made some bars to stiffen the frame, that's one... A nice idea, but what else?
In response to your slander of Cattman Performance's current products, there is only one thing that matters. We have had ZERO returns, warranty issues or even a negative comment involving the pipes we've been selling for the last several months in 2002. Again, as an obvious advocate for WSP lets see how honest you are about their track record. No Y-pipe issues in the last 6 months? I don't thing so!
The Y-pipes we're selling are the best made -- I'll match any feature of ours, as well as their fit and performance, with any of the competition out there. You can pretend as if the strength of TIG-welding, the unique properties of stainless steel (corrosion resistance, resistance to stress fractures, and heat containment properties, the consistant diameter and smooth flow of mandrel-bent tubing, and the performance associated with a racing-grade merge collector are elitist and a waste of money, but based on the interaction I have with my customers, they don't agree (nor do the laws of physics, metallurgy and fluid dynamics).
I repeat the challenge I made earlier. If you can support what you say, find a single issue with the current Cattman Performance Y-pipe products for the 1995-1998 (all Maximas), 1999-2000 Federal or 1999-2001 CA/NLEV. You say the issues are constant, so identify JUST ONE customer issue with the product we currently sell. I'm making this challenge very publicly, lets see what you've got.
To reply to the last point you make without foundation, regarding exhaust leaks, Maximas burn rich and I seldom see a tailpipe that isn't lined in black or dark grey (anyone disagree?). Since there is positive pressure all along the exhaust system, and a given that these gasses usually leave a black signature at the end of the pipe, I stand on my experience. A real leak involves escaping gasses, those gasses contain some soot, and they will leave a black flare around any opening that the gasses are escaping from.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
At one time we had a Y-pipe return rate of 2-3% -- about average -- and you try to claim are this rate is "far more than any other in the market, by a long shot"... Its tough to imagine any subject that you could know any less about. Your bias for your buddies at WSP is obvious, but don't pretend that you offer any kind of objective voice on this subject.
We sell a lot of Y-pipes, and I guarantee we would have gone out of business a long time ago if installation required a sledge hammer. Causing our customers "disappointment/fright"? what a melodramatic bunch of crap. I couldn't count the number of emails I get from customers who have been disappointed by my competitors due to specific product issues or a realization that they just didn't get much value for what they spent.
Sure, we've committed our share of errors over the five years we've been developing and providing parts for the Maxima community, but a good part of that can be attributed to the fact that Cattman Performance takes risks and develops parts first for the Maxima. Stillen might have developed more performance parts first for the Maxima (in my book, they can't be copies and they have to make power to count as original developments), but aside from the supercharger and the first CA/NLEV y-pipe, its tough to identify significant "firsts". To put it in scale, Stillen had over 100 employees the last time I checked. Cattman Performance has zero. No risks = fewer mistakes = BORING; fine for some, but that's not why I went into business.
Either through development or sponsorship, Cattman Performance is responsible for the first Maxima:
1. commercially available gen4 y-pipe,
2. gen3 y-pipe,
3. stainless steel Y-pipe,
4. supercharger Y-pipe,
5. CAI,
6. Y-pipe tuned catback exhaust,
7. Quaife differential,
8. motor mounts,
9. full coilover suspension (2 generations and a third due shortly),
10. AGX struts that fit the 2000+ Maxima,
11. soon-to-be-released titanium-based FSTB.
(and more on the way...)
That's over ten complete performance parts systems, not including innumerable improvements and design revisions and a number of parts that we have developed improved versions of, like our upcoming Cattman rear sway bar.
You hang around WSP a lot, Mark, what kind of risk-taking are they doing down there? Lets see, they made some bars to stiffen the frame, that's one... A nice idea, but what else?
In response to your slander of Cattman Performance's current products, there is only one thing that matters. We have had ZERO returns, warranty issues or even a negative comment involving the pipes we've been selling for the last several months in 2002. Again, as an obvious advocate for WSP lets see how honest you are about their track record. No Y-pipe issues in the last 6 months? I don't thing so!
The Y-pipes we're selling are the best made -- I'll match any feature of ours, as well as their fit and performance, with any of the competition out there. You can pretend as if the strength of TIG-welding, the unique properties of stainless steel (corrosion resistance, resistance to stress fractures, and heat containment properties, the consistant diameter and smooth flow of mandrel-bent tubing, and the performance associated with a racing-grade merge collector are elitist and a waste of money, but based on the interaction I have with my customers, they don't agree (nor do the laws of physics, metallurgy and fluid dynamics).
I repeat the challenge I made earlier. If you can support what you say, find a single issue with the current Cattman Performance Y-pipe products for the 1995-1998 (all Maximas), 1999-2000 Federal or 1999-2001 CA/NLEV. You say the issues are constant, so identify JUST ONE customer issue with the product we currently sell. I'm making this challenge very publicly, lets see what you've got.
To reply to the last point you make without foundation, regarding exhaust leaks, Maximas burn rich and I seldom see a tailpipe that isn't lined in black or dark grey (anyone disagree?). Since there is positive pressure all along the exhaust system, and a given that these gasses usually leave a black signature at the end of the pipe, I stand on my experience. A real leak involves escaping gasses, those gasses contain some soot, and they will leave a black flare around any opening that the gasses are escaping from.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by Dave B
Brian-
You cannot be honest when you say there were only 50 pipes that suffered from alignment issues. Seriously, I've been on this Org since early 1998 and I've read about the constant problems with your y-pipes not fitting correctly. Are you daring me to post the wealth of information concerning the fitment issues with you pipes? I've constantly read about guys using pry bars and sledges to get your pipes to fit correctly without touching the engine cradle or aligning the pipes to fit to the cat and/or manifolds. Think of the disappoint/fright of the buyer when they have to watch a mechanic beat on his high dollar/high quality (?) y-pipe. There are plenty out there that have had no problems with you y-pipes, but you've got to admit your pipes have suffered from fitment problems far more than any other in the market, by a long shot.
I'm sure many are glad to hear that you've switched contractors to build your y-pipes in an effort to remedy your fitment problems. That's dandy that you're using an aerospace and medical instrumentation machining firm to build your pipes, but WSP doesn't use a a fancy company to build their perfectly fitting Y-pipes.
The lack of "soot" around a flex section leak does not guarentee that the flex is not leaking. I've had exhaust leaks on my cars, before the cat, along the B-pipe, and by the muffler and I rarely saw carbon buildup. The only real way to test to run your hand over the suspected area and feel for hot air. I've personally seen two of your Y-pipes at WSP with blown flex sections and I didn't see any carbon buildup on the outside even though the flex was clearly leaking (we could see daylight) and bunched up. Your flex sections are nothing like Stillens. One of your biggest design flaws was a extremely short flex section (1/2 the size of the Stillen, nearly 3 times shorter than WSP). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a FWD engine torques very hard and puts a lot of stress on the flex plus the shorter the flex, the more vibration is transmitted thru the exhaust and motor. Ahhh..vibration, another typical problem with your Y-pipes. Look at the factory flex length. I suggest you copy it.
I happily admit that WSP y-pipes aren't works of art, but I buy products that are focused more on function than form. My ugly WSP non-mandrel alumnized Y-pipe with it's ugly welds and such fit like a glove the first time and looks exactly like it did when I installed it last November. The pipe went thru a brutal salty Midwest winter and shows abosolutely no signs of corrosion. It fits right, it's damn quiet, doesn't cause any vibration, and it made a bit more power than my mandrel bent Stillen Y-pipe. I couldn't be happier.
As for Marek-
It's not his problem that you've changed fabricators using a different jig. It's your problem. For all the time effort of inspecting his Y-pipe, getting costs to fix to misaligned pipe, etc, you could have just given the guy a new Y-pipe and called it a day. Customer service should be job one.
As for him quoting your replys, suck it up and quite your whining. You've got a business and consumers have a right to publish anything to write. He didn't misqoute you.
I'm done with this subject.
Dave
Brian-
You cannot be honest when you say there were only 50 pipes that suffered from alignment issues. Seriously, I've been on this Org since early 1998 and I've read about the constant problems with your y-pipes not fitting correctly. Are you daring me to post the wealth of information concerning the fitment issues with you pipes? I've constantly read about guys using pry bars and sledges to get your pipes to fit correctly without touching the engine cradle or aligning the pipes to fit to the cat and/or manifolds. Think of the disappoint/fright of the buyer when they have to watch a mechanic beat on his high dollar/high quality (?) y-pipe. There are plenty out there that have had no problems with you y-pipes, but you've got to admit your pipes have suffered from fitment problems far more than any other in the market, by a long shot.
I'm sure many are glad to hear that you've switched contractors to build your y-pipes in an effort to remedy your fitment problems. That's dandy that you're using an aerospace and medical instrumentation machining firm to build your pipes, but WSP doesn't use a a fancy company to build their perfectly fitting Y-pipes.
The lack of "soot" around a flex section leak does not guarentee that the flex is not leaking. I've had exhaust leaks on my cars, before the cat, along the B-pipe, and by the muffler and I rarely saw carbon buildup. The only real way to test to run your hand over the suspected area and feel for hot air. I've personally seen two of your Y-pipes at WSP with blown flex sections and I didn't see any carbon buildup on the outside even though the flex was clearly leaking (we could see daylight) and bunched up. Your flex sections are nothing like Stillens. One of your biggest design flaws was a extremely short flex section (1/2 the size of the Stillen, nearly 3 times shorter than WSP). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a FWD engine torques very hard and puts a lot of stress on the flex plus the shorter the flex, the more vibration is transmitted thru the exhaust and motor. Ahhh..vibration, another typical problem with your Y-pipes. Look at the factory flex length. I suggest you copy it.
I happily admit that WSP y-pipes aren't works of art, but I buy products that are focused more on function than form. My ugly WSP non-mandrel alumnized Y-pipe with it's ugly welds and such fit like a glove the first time and looks exactly like it did when I installed it last November. The pipe went thru a brutal salty Midwest winter and shows abosolutely no signs of corrosion. It fits right, it's damn quiet, doesn't cause any vibration, and it made a bit more power than my mandrel bent Stillen Y-pipe. I couldn't be happier.
As for Marek-
It's not his problem that you've changed fabricators using a different jig. It's your problem. For all the time effort of inspecting his Y-pipe, getting costs to fix to misaligned pipe, etc, you could have just given the guy a new Y-pipe and called it a day. Customer service should be job one.
As for him quoting your replys, suck it up and quite your whining. You've got a business and consumers have a right to publish anything to write. He didn't misqoute you.
I'm done with this subject.
Dave
09-03-2002, 11:15 PM
#18
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Brian-
I respect your comments and I think it is great that your company has developed and/or help developed aftermarket parts for the Maxima. I'm sure everyone is grateful for this. IMO, I don't see the point is using the "superior" and "best" parts when they are not necessarily needed. I don't need a $400 Y-pipe when a $195 Y-pipe can do the same exact job. That's just me. I hope that your Y-pipes are fitting perfectly now.
I'm not affiliated with WSP. I do run a few of their products on my car and I've had very good luck with them. I like their parts because they are effective and are relatively cheap. It's true that they don't offer a variety of parts, but please remember that they build parts for other cars, not just the Maxima. Currently they make subframe connectors (incredibly effective), hybrid/CAI intakes, variety of Y-pipes, B-pipes, B-pipe fixes, Y-pipe fixes, and full catbacks. I know radial arms and a fully custom 2.5" muffker are in development.
As for Marek, I feel you are giving him a raw deal. I won't go into the details because I've already posted them and you've responded.
SleeperMax-
Unfortunately I've never asked Dallas much about the 2K-2K1 Y-pipes. I was under the impression that they were done last month. The problem is that WSP is always very busy and their fabricators cannot keep up with the demand and/or their promises. I know that Dallas gets excited and it appears that he bites off more than he can chew sometimes. They are always R&Ding when they should probably be more focused on production. I know that they are also getting involved with Altimas, Grand Prixs, and some sport compacts therefore some of the Maxima focus gets lost in their very small company.
Dave
I respect your comments and I think it is great that your company has developed and/or help developed aftermarket parts for the Maxima. I'm sure everyone is grateful for this. IMO, I don't see the point is using the "superior" and "best" parts when they are not necessarily needed. I don't need a $400 Y-pipe when a $195 Y-pipe can do the same exact job. That's just me. I hope that your Y-pipes are fitting perfectly now.
I'm not affiliated with WSP. I do run a few of their products on my car and I've had very good luck with them. I like their parts because they are effective and are relatively cheap. It's true that they don't offer a variety of parts, but please remember that they build parts for other cars, not just the Maxima. Currently they make subframe connectors (incredibly effective), hybrid/CAI intakes, variety of Y-pipes, B-pipes, B-pipe fixes, Y-pipe fixes, and full catbacks. I know radial arms and a fully custom 2.5" muffker are in development.
As for Marek, I feel you are giving him a raw deal. I won't go into the details because I've already posted them and you've responded.
SleeperMax-
Unfortunately I've never asked Dallas much about the 2K-2K1 Y-pipes. I was under the impression that they were done last month. The problem is that WSP is always very busy and their fabricators cannot keep up with the demand and/or their promises. I know that Dallas gets excited and it appears that he bites off more than he can chew sometimes. They are always R&Ding when they should probably be more focused on production. I know that they are also getting involved with Altimas, Grand Prixs, and some sport compacts therefore some of the Maxima focus gets lost in their very small company.
Dave
09-05-2002, 12:13 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,869
Brian...
I know you try hard to keep your customers satisfied..
but throughout the days, I see people having problems with their Y-Pipes.. yea remember, I had a big problem with it too?
I had to ask the mechenic to weld it for me.. now that my y-pipe size is smaller. I think you guys should redesign the 4th gen y-pipes... not for me but for the future customers.
I still stick up for your y-pipe though.
Fitment is a big issue on your 4th gen y-pipes though
just wanted to tell you that.
-sexima
I know you try hard to keep your customers satisfied..
but throughout the days, I see people having problems with their Y-Pipes.. yea remember, I had a big problem with it too?
I had to ask the mechenic to weld it for me.. now that my y-pipe size is smaller. I think you guys should redesign the 4th gen y-pipes... not for me but for the future customers.
I still stick up for your y-pipe though.
Fitment is a big issue on your 4th gen y-pipes though
just wanted to tell you that.
-sexima
09-05-2002, 11:31 PM
#20
Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
I'm a few months ahead of you here. Please read my posts above. They're almost entirely about the total redesign, and superior characteristics of our completely new 4th gen pipe.
The issues that some would pretend characterized our earlier production never affected over 2-3% of our sales. That was not adequate for me, and as a result of the redesign and new fabricating environment, that margin of error has been reduced to 0% throughout the entirety of our 2002 Y-pipe production.
No one out there can claim that kind of record.
Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
The issues that some would pretend characterized our earlier production never affected over 2-3% of our sales. That was not adequate for me, and as a result of the redesign and new fabricating environment, that margin of error has been reduced to 0% throughout the entirety of our 2002 Y-pipe production.
No one out there can claim that kind of record.
Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by Sexima
Brian...
I know you try hard to keep your customers satisfied..
but throughout the days, I see people having problems with their Y-Pipes.. yea remember, I had a big problem with it too?
I had to ask the mechenic to weld it for me.. now that my y-pipe size is smaller. I think you guys should redesign the 4th gen y-pipes... not for me but for the future customers.
I still stick up for your y-pipe though.
Fitment is a big issue on your 4th gen y-pipes though
just wanted to tell you that.
-sexima
Brian...
I know you try hard to keep your customers satisfied..
but throughout the days, I see people having problems with their Y-Pipes.. yea remember, I had a big problem with it too?
I had to ask the mechenic to weld it for me.. now that my y-pipe size is smaller. I think you guys should redesign the 4th gen y-pipes... not for me but for the future customers.
I still stick up for your y-pipe though.
Fitment is a big issue on your 4th gen y-pipes though
just wanted to tell you that.
-sexima
09-06-2002, 11:41 AM
#21
Re: Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
Originally posted by Cattman
I'm a few months ahead of you here. Please read my posts above. They're almost entirely about the total redesign, and superior characteristics of our completely new 4th gen pipe.
The issues that some would pretend characterized our earlier production never affected over 2-3% of our sales. That was not adequate for me, and as a result of the redesign and new fabricating environment, that margin of error has been reduced to 0% throughout the entirety of our 2002 Y-pipe production.
No one out there can claim that kind of record.
Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
I'm a few months ahead of you here. Please read my posts above. They're almost entirely about the total redesign, and superior characteristics of our completely new 4th gen pipe.
The issues that some would pretend characterized our earlier production never affected over 2-3% of our sales. That was not adequate for me, and as a result of the redesign and new fabricating environment, that margin of error has been reduced to 0% throughout the entirety of our 2002 Y-pipe production.
No one out there can claim that kind of record.
Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to purchase one of your re-designed 2K-2K1 cali spec Y-pipes. BUT I'd like to see some pictures of it first. Do you have any you could post either here or on your site?
09-08-2002, 01:34 AM
#22
Re: Re: Anyone can follow, but we choose to lead!
Originally posted by sleepermax
Brian,
As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to purchase one of your re-designed 2K-2K1 cali spec Y-pipes. BUT I'd like to see some pictures of it first. Do you have any you could post either here or on your site?
Brian,
As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to purchase one of your re-designed 2K-2K1 cali spec Y-pipes. BUT I'd like to see some pictures of it first. Do you have any you could post either here or on your site?
I do have a few of pictures of the new gen5 CA/NLEV y-pipe, but whenever I try to attach an image to a forum message I just get whining messages about size and format. Not worth the frustration. Send me your email address (to catt@cattman.com)and I'll attach a picture or two.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
09-08-2002, 03:44 AM
#23
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Queens, NYC
Posts: 1,527
Just wanted to let everyone know that my ypipe issue has been resolved. My ypipe could not be repaired and Brian told me he would send me a new one. While things have not gone as smoothly as they should have, I still think that Brian's products, such as this ypipe, simply do not compare to compare to quality in materials used. I have seen other ypipes and what they are made of isn't even close. While I had a problem with mine, I still wanted to have it fixed b/c I didn't want some pos on my car. While nothing is ever perfect, I'll still continue to do business with Cattman.
I'm just glad this has been resolved.
I'm just glad this has been resolved.
09-21-2002, 11:52 PM
#24
Originally posted by skeelo34
I am happy to say that things have been resolved. I was away a few days, but when I got back I was pleased to read that Brian would send me a new ypipe b/c mine was irreperable. There is a reason why I went through the hassle, b/c I know this pipe is worth it. Its just unfortunate of the circumstances that this happened in. While I might have acted similiar in Brians shoes and not be happy about it, I'm glad he showed that he stands behind his company and customer service. Thanks Brian.
I am happy to say that things have been resolved. I was away a few days, but when I got back I was pleased to read that Brian would send me a new ypipe b/c mine was irreperable. There is a reason why I went through the hassle, b/c I know this pipe is worth it. Its just unfortunate of the circumstances that this happened in. While I might have acted similiar in Brians shoes and not be happy about it, I'm glad he showed that he stands behind his company and customer service. Thanks Brian.
j/k
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