TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

Patiently waiting for 3.5 cam swap

speed racer

iTrader: (10)

This is a little OT but in terms of someone wanting to put a DE-K in; there better off going with a more aggressive cam b/c the DE-K cams choke the top end like everyone is saying and b/c we know the duration is not that great. So, since the engine is out its best to go with some pathfinder cams

Engine: VQ35DE (1)
Model Years: 2001-2004 (Pathfinder)

Intake__Lift: 9.0mm
Exhaust_Lift: 9.0mm

Intake__Duration: 230º
Exhaust_Duration: 232º

Intake_Opens: 3º ATDC
Intake_Closes: 53º ABDC

Exhaust_Opens: 46º BBDC
Exhaust_Closes: 6º ATDC

Overlap: 3º

or some 3.5L cams.
ngine: VQ35DE (2)
Model Years: 2002-2005 (Maxima, and a slew of others)
CVTC: Intake

Intake__Lift: 9.5mm
Exhaust_Lift: 9.5mm

Intake__Duration: 238º
Exhaust_Duration: 240º

Intake_Opens: 6º ATDC
Intake_Closes: 64º ABDC

Exhaust_Opens: 52º BBDC
Exhaust_Closes: 8º ATDC

Overlap: 2º

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Ixnay on the Pathfinder-aye.

VQ35 stock Maxima/350Z cams.... maybe, on a tight budget, but they wouldn't be my first choice.

speed racer

iTrader: (10)

yea. more for the budget minded person.

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

I think my power valve will be coming out as the cup will not stay. Thing is I understand the lose in lowend. I will lose more with the 3.5 cams as well.

I have the 3.5 cams with spacers to close the intake at 54*.

How much low end can be restored once properly tuned with Greddy EU and also I am think about the battery relocated CAI mod in the 5th gen forum.

Any opinions on this?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I may have a spare VIAS assembly (with the cup in A1 shape) I could let go for a few bucks.

Low end restoration with EU.. hard to say. No precedent yet really, ie - 3.0 with stock 3.5 cams, DEK IM and EU. I'd imagine you'd gain a couple ponies back but probably not the same as with a working PV and EU. Depends on the cam timing a little bit too (if you were to compare different cars)

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

how much would you want for that VIAS assembly?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I dunno, how about say, $40 shipped

cw96

iTrader: (31)

Cams specs are sort of a big deal, don't ya think? Especially considering that DE intake cams have 8* more duration. That's pretty significant. All else being equal, the DE with 00VI has slightly better top-end power potential than a DE-K.

I can believe this statement because I swapped out to a full dek motor and it seems as if the tach does not move as fast from 6500 to 7200 as it did when I had the 00VI installed on my stock de.Maybe it's just my imagination but I felt as if the motor wasn't breathing good enough and I thought it was getting choked down by my exhaust.I don't have any proof of this(dyno comparisons)it's just my personal observasion between the two different setups. I am going to order some headers from cattman but it looks like I might also want to invest in some cams.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

^^^ The culprit isn't the exhaust, it's the intake cam...
.
.
.
BTW nismology if you happen to see this... something I discovered recently... the DEK buckets have a slightly smaller OD than the DE. You can't swap buckets back and forth, but you can swap the shims still. And yes I know the FSM says the buckets/lifter guides are supposed to be the same.

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

all that being said, I believe 3.5 cams or other aftermarket cams are the way to go...neither the de-k or nor the de cams are aggressive enough...and even with 8* more duration, the differences will be minimal compared to much larger to even substantial gains to be had from aftermarket or 3.5 cams...

cw96

iTrader: (31)

Dandymax your are correct about the intake cam being the problem about my top end.I just now started comparing cam specs so I posted before knew what I was talking about.With that being said now that I have a dek motor I am assuming that the 2000-2001 maximas will not be able to put up as good dyno numbers than a 95-99 with 00VI swap even if they had the extended rev limiter or an EU because this is a mechanical limitation.I guess it's time to start looking at which cams to buy to solve this problem.

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

I think 240whp won't be possible like dandy's due to the cams, but more like 220 wouldn't be out of the question with EU and extended rev limiter...

I put down 194whp with a broken VIAS and no tune whatsover (that was with pulley, flywheel, stillen popcharger, cattman headers, straight pipe, and cattman catback...this was only at about 5200rpm where it peaked...so with a working VIAS, and tune via EU, I can certainly see 220whp atleast I am sure...not to mention with my cutout more top end is possible. Before I sell my car I will go back one more time to see what I can put down considering it was also about 90 degrees that day in socal...

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

Interesting discussion.

This is plainly out of curiosity.

If someone had a 00-01 with a VQ30DE-K. Say the motor blew, would it be better for that person to grab a VQ30DE w/ecu and swap over there 00vi since the intake cams are better?

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

there's not much difference, I would base the decision more on mileage, price, and condition/compression test results...

but it would be best if doing any swap to get aftermarket cams ideally if money permits...as cams from either engine aren't aggressive enough and you might as well do the work while the engine is out of the engine bay.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

That would be my thought. If the engine's out anyways why not change to better cams? Even stock 3.5 cams are dirt cheap (although only marginally better than 3.0 cams in my book). Just get another DEK and save the expense of the DE ECU. Or go 3.5 haha

cw96

iTrader: (31)

Just bought the same cams that grey99 got for his 3.5 (S1 knockoffs) so I hope to install them in a couple of weeks then it's off to the dyno to see what happens.I have a question about the springs though and dandymax might be able to shed some light on this for me.I have been studing about installing the HR vq35 springs because of the cost but I have also seen some posts about the vq30 springs that are as strong as the vq35 .Will the stock vq30 springs handle the S1 cams up to 7200 or will the valves float.I'll be running the cam timing straight up no advancing except for the 2 degrees already in the cams.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

From past experiences there have been little no cases of valve float in the VQ30 with stock cams. Dandy has taken the engine past 7k(7.5K IIRC) without any issues. Others have flirted with 7200 many times and no issues arised either. Nealoc187 at first believed that he once saw VF, but later stated that it was not VF.

IMO, since you're in there, might as well repalce your stock springs with new ones(HR/JWT or other)

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Valve float is the least of your worries past 6600, oil pump is what should be replaced whenever you have a chance..

If I ever had my timing chain off the first thing I would do it install a VQ35 oil pump

cw96

iTrader: (31)

I thought about changing the oil pump because I was going to pull the motor out(for the 3rd time) to change the cams and install some headers.Might as well change out all the little things this time so I will not have to pull everthing out for a 4th time until I'm ready for the 3.5 swap.I swear sometimes it seems as if I under my car more than inside it.At least I'm working on it by choice instead of having to work on it to keep it running to get to work.I'm tryng to install things that will transfer over to the 3.5 when I swap them out so if there are any other suggestions I'm all ears.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

When are you planning to do this? I've put a couple comments below but I could probably give you more complete/better info in a few weeks once I've had a chance to verify/confirm some gut feelings/educated assumptions.

Valve float becomes a problem on the stock VQ30 valvetrain around 7600 or so I believe, although it may actually physically start around 7300 (minute amounts). Yes the 3.0 springs are stiffer than 3.5 but remember the valvetrain is much heavier. I haven't done any modeling for 3.5 S1 cams with stock 3.0 springs, but from what I've seen doing a lot of other VQ30 engine modeling recently I wouldn't feel comfortable running stock 3.0 valvetrain to 7200 with those cams. 10.8+ mm of lift... Another note: accounting for rod stretch at high rpms, the piston to valve clearance on the intake with those cams might be very tight even with much stiffer springs (somewhat dependent on cam timing and rpm). No reliefs on 3.0 pistons...

WRT the oil pump I agree, the 3.0 is weak sauce, switch to 3.5 if you're pulling the engine anyways.

Cam timing with the VQ35 S1's... you're going to lose a significant amount of mid/low power keeping them fully retarded. Especially if you're not keeping a working PV (what's the plan there?) If you want the best acceleration for racing, take into account where in the power band you'll be spending most of your time and where your gearing is going to put your after-shift rpm drops, and consider you're only going to 7200... I wouldn't assume fully retarded is best, even if it gives the highest peak number.

cw96

iTrader: (31)

I'm sorry I meant to say I will be installing the cams with no more advanced timing other than what the spacers are set for.I talked to stephen today about making the spacers but he had to go to a meeting so he said he would get back to me maybe later tonight I'm assuming so we can talk about the specs.I won't be racing all the time mostly daily driving(500-600 miles a week) so gas mileage is still a factor for me right now instead of all out power.I will not be as concerned about fuel mileage after 3.5 swap but for now I'm trying to balance performance with economy.I know this sounds stupid but I love my max's pep but I love getting 30+ mpg plus having my pep even more.What I'm trying to do is see how much power can be had out of our 3.0 and still drive all week on a tank of gas.When you mentioned PV were you reffering to the power valve in the dek manifold.If so I wasn't planning on removing anything from the intake.I'm just going to getting all the "bolt ons" I can and see how much power and fuel mileage can be had out of these motors.To me everything is a bolt on until you start tearing into the block,reworking heads,boring cylinders,etc...I figured I would have to change the springs because of the lift differances I was just trying to be a cheapskate and hoping the factory springs would work.I'll be pulling the motor this saturday and start preping it for the cams.If you are working on something that I could benefit from I would gladly hold off until you get some more info.I'm not trying to mooch off of your research but I don't have as much knowledge of these motors as you do but I am working on it.Hell I have 4 other cars to drive and a extra vq30 sitting in the garage so I could go ahead and test the theory on the stock springs handling the S1 like there ad claims "Reuse your stock springs" then we would know for sure. Anyway I appriciate all the help and I just whored up someone's dyno post with a post that should probably be in the all motor forum.I will dyno when I get everything back together and post the results.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

The spacers can be set for any timing you want. But if you go with his "standard" adapter timing, you won't have the cams fully retarded, which will mean your mid range should be decent, which sounds to me like what your after. IMO you don't want them fully retarded. What kind of centerlines are you talking about?

As for the S1 ads saying "reuse your stock springs", take that with a grain of salt. Remember they are intending the cams for a VQ35 valvetrain that's not revving past the stock limit (most likely). But you're talking about a) revving higher than stock limit and b) on a much heavier valvetrain. Edit: I just quickly tweaked the modeling: with 3.0 springs, weights, etc and S1 cams it predicts float occurring around 7200-7300. So you're into iffy territory for sure. I'd never trust a model 100% either, inputs are never 100% accurate, so it could be off a few hundred rpm. You could be fine or it could start before 7000 for example... for me that's not enough of a comfort zone, but that's me.

The main thing that concerns me is piston to valve clearance with those cams, as I mentioned it's getting pretty tight and the VQ30 pistons do not have reliefs. I have measured everything in detail, and I *think* we can get away with it, but in about a week, maybe 2 tops I should be able to provide further info on that and a couple other issues I haven't even mentioned. Whether you want to wait until then or not is up to you of course.

RacerX1320

iTrader: (3)

I agree with CW96 for the most part. I have all bolt ons and was concidering cams from jwt, but i think i will try and work with an emanage first an see what i get from that. To me cracking the motor open seems risky, i only have 56k on my motor and it runs mint and id hate to ruin a good motor because i was trying to grab a few extra ponies. Once i started calling around for shops in the long island area to install the cams it seems NONE wanted to install valve springs and were shying away from the job.
Perhaps after the Emanage if i dont get the gains i am looking for i will reconcider the jwt cams/springs. From what i hear none is running a 00 max with all bolt ons with a Greddy Emanage.

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

well I am, just haven't tuned with the emanage ultimate yet...haven't got around to it...

I had to take my bored out TB recently and put my stock one back on, since I could never get it to idle right...I'm sure I didn't loose too much there, but still...I was not happy to do it...

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Do any or both of you have flull equal length headers?

Also, how big was the bore on that TB?

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

I need to measure the TB...I measured it when I first recieved back from the shop...the guy who did it said he was impressed by how much it can be bored out from the stock one...I think it is just shy of the pathfinder IIRC, something like 68, 69, or 70mm...can't remember when I measured it...

I was so sad to put the stock back on, cause the bored out one looks rediculously huge compared to the stock one...the walls on the bored out one are almost paper thin now though...lol

I have the new cattman headers...so for the most part they are equal length.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Why not just add a PFTB?

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Can I see it/buy it

And your idle problems related to hte iacv or the bigger bore of the tb?

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

well I never actually got my hands on a consult II and run the idle air volume learn...the dealership wanted $100 to run it even though it takes all of 10 minutes to do...I got really busy with other things and never got around to it, so I just lived with the higher idle for a little while until it go on my nerves last weekend and swapped it out for the stock one...

I got this one instead of the PFTB, cause then I wouldn't need any adapter plates...

I can take some pics of it if you like...

RacerX1320

iTrader: (3)

My exhaust manifold is stock, but i am running all Cattman from the Y pipe back with 02 Simulators. I will probably do the Emanage in the spring of 08 and get it tuned by a certified Greddy Dealer by me.
If we didnt have all those pesky states between us, id love for Michaelnyden to tune it for me you seem to have tons of knowledge on my motor.

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

Yeah the plate is pretty pricey. How much does it cost to bore out the stock TB?

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

the TB I bought used for I forget how much, then it was another $120 with shipping back and forth to get it bored out IIRC

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

I'd like to seem some pics of how this was bored out. I'm interested in this now as I took my TB restrictor plate out so now the IM entrance is larger then the TB.

K20A2

You can tell by looking at it that it was clearly on a DynoJet.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

My thought exactly

VQ'rInWLA

iTrader: (83)

Go ahead and me if you want for bumping an old @ss thread, but Im very intrigued with a bored out TB. I was planning on getting a PFTB but this could be a more budget friendly alternative.

Anyone else bore theirs out? Any issues?

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Bored out is probably not the best, budget friendly or not. PFTB is the best option for you, IMO, being that you have a throttle cable.

Boring out is sorta 'ghetto', you remove the coating, and of course you might have idle issues, and the PFTB is essentially one of the better options.

Again, all IMO.

sparks03max

iTrader: (7)

Yeah... Plus boring out the TB will be trial and error, sometimes the material you are cutting into is very thin and you ruin a TB finding out that you can't take out much material at all.

jac121479

iTrader: (10)

Agreed