[COMMENTS]
ALEX: It's not unusual to find high copper in newer engines such as this one. We normally expect wear to settle down by 15,000 miles, but it's possible copper is lingering in your engine. Other wear looks fine and shows no obvious problems with the engine. Insolubles were low at 0.3%, showing good oil filtration. Silicon was okay at 10 ppm, so your air filter is working okay. Suggest resampling in another 3000 miles. If copper drops, we'll think this engine is okay. The TBN read 8.5. If copper drops down to a normal level, you'll be able to go longer on this oil.
[/COMMENTS]

This was my 15K sample that was run for 3K miles on Mobil 1 Blend 10W-30 w/an OEM oil fitler.

The Copper is:
COPPER = 79 Universal Avg = 43

Looking at Bills spreadsheet 43 is WAY too high compared to normal.


WTF? I switched to FULL synthetic after that sample was taken ~1K ago, so I'm hoping that helps.



Bill, I'll send all THREE analysis to you tonight.

 

[COMMENTS]
ALEX: The copper and lead you see here could possibly be left over from the factory. These levels are not terribly high, but we think it's time to change out this oil, especially considering the insolubles level. We suggest resampling after 10,000 miles on fresh oil for another look at wear. The TBN read 6.5, which would be a routine find for and oil of this viscosity with these additives in it.
[/COMMENTS]

There was EXACTLY 15K miles on this Nissan MANUAL transfluid.

Copper = 36 Universal Average = 10
Lead = 7 Universal Average = 1

INSOLUBLES = 0.4% Should be = <0.1%


So, those of you who don't test your oil MIGHT want to change your MT fluid every 10K instead.

 

Very interesting report considering some of the recent threads about "metal" in the gear oil when it was changed.

On the motor oil analysis, were any of the other numbers higher?

I thought you used Redline 10W-40??

 

I swithced to synthetic(Redline 10W-30) at 15K. I went with -30, since I wanted to compare the same weight Mobil semisynthetic results to the Redline without adding another possible variable. Next, oil change will be 10W-40.

These results were from my last run with dino.

Element-Measured/Average
--------------------------
Aluminum-3/4
Chromium-1/1
Iron-12/15
Copper-79/43
Lead-2/7
Tin-0/1
Molybdenum-1/34
Nickel-0/0
Manganese-0/1
Silver-0/0
Titanium-0/0
Potassium-0/3
Boron-57/45<-----Antiwear additive
Silicon-10/12
Sodium-2/7
Calcium-299/911
Magnesium-809/671
Phosphorus-617/684
Zinc-758/820
Barium-0/0

My guess, is that the elevated Copper level is the result of running TOO THICK of an oil during the break-in period, so the break-in has been slowed. This is why I waited until 15K to switch to synthetic, but apparently I didn't wait long enough. That or the engine is damaged from running too thick an oil, but I should know more after my next sample or two.

BTW, can I still get sample containers from you?

 

how do you guys send in the sample blackstone labs?

 

Ask for a sample container at http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html

And before Bill puts the smack down , go ahead and read his sticky for more information:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=100060

 

thanks mr. ice moderator. Sorry bill, I guess I didn't read your thread well enough, but I do have the oil analysis on my desktop.

 

 

Okay, so this post I just quoted was a dino oil and there was acopper level of 79. The original post in this thread was with the Mobil blend, and it ALSO had a copper level of 79. Did I read that correctly? Do you have a TBN on the dino oil, I suspect it would be rather low.

How are the oil's holding up to the heat out there? Are the viscosties drifting out of grade, and do you have any data on the oxidation or nitration percentages?

You don't have an oil cooler by any chance do you? That could help explain elevated copped levels as well.

I still have OAI sample containers available.

 

Alex,


I'll be looking at this soon, as I'm updating the sheet as we speak.





I may be delayed due to all the pigs flying outside.

 

Same sample my friend. I just gave you the full version, since you asked if anything else was elevated. Mobil blend = Dino + Synthetic supposedly. TBN = 8.5 after 3000 miles.

According the the Mobil TBN of 8.5 for the Maxima and the Valvoline MaxLife TBN of 5.5 for the Sentra, I'd say 10W-30 is fine for 3000-3500 miles. These samples are from 110-120 summer temps., I believe that's a good worst case senario.

No, but does the Maxima come with an OEM one? I know some vehicles do, but I haven't seen one on the Max.

Yeah, I'll hit you up for 3 after Christmas.

 

I just checked, no pigs flying outside.


However, I'm pretty sure HELL(ie AZ) has frozen over, so you may still be delayed.

 

Alex,


I'm assuming that the initial ATF sample was your factory Nissan D4. Until you get back to me with a bit more background, this is the only one I can intelligently comment on.


The Nissan D4 ATF still leaves me quite unimpressed, but it is a dino oil. I think recommending a complete change at 30,000 is still reasonable instead of 60k Nissan recommends. Based on your particular results, 15,000 is probably the initial useable life of the factory ATF. Your insoluble count was not good. That fluid should be changed when you get the chance.

 

Correction....it's a MANUAL, so that's manual transmission fluid. I don't know where they got automagic from.

I switched to Redline 10W-30 and Redline MT-90 at 15K when those samples were taken.

I'm going to try and look tonight at my receipts to see what oil weight I used when, but I doubt I'll know for sure. I kept all my logs on my Palm and I ended up losing all my maintenance history. That will teach me to back **** up.

 

Not much to add on the oil analysis. Some observations:


Copper is at a high level. Quite unusual for the VQ and it hasn't been seen before. Oil history may help in determining why, as other wear metals don't allude to an overall engine issue.



Calcium is flat out bad. I would be pretty concerned about only having 300ppm or so of calcium after only 3000 miles of oil use. Drive Clean Blend's inital calcium is around 2400 ppm, so the elevated copper must have been "consuming" the calcium for the entire interval. I've never seen calcium dip much below 1000ppm regardless of interval, so it's quite unusual to see that low of a level in your oil.


The slightly high viscosity is most likely residual oil left over from previous changes. Oil history will help determine why.


With Redline or whatever oil you use after this initial Redline, 3k changes are going to be the norm for at least the next 2 intervals.

 

I agree!

BTW, I think I may have run the same 10W-30 Mobil Blend on the previous oil change(9K-12K interval), but I'll see if I can verify that.

 

OK now that you have me panic'd beyond belief. I wish to offer my info and take suggestions.

1) I changed my fluid at about 20K, complained about "metal flakes" in my fluid became concerned.
2) I filled with MT-90. I currently have about 1K on the fluid.
2) The ease of getting into gear is MUCH better in the cold. 16 F last night and no problem...
4) BUT it is still notchy. I.E. I have to play to get it into gear sometimes. And sometimes it "nashes" and I have to back out and reinsert into gear. This seems that problems are occuring.

My question: Will 1K be enough to show issues? Should I wait longer? I intend to have them drain the whole tranny (my cost for labor) but refill with MT-90 (or Nissan garbage should they "require" it) again. I really want to know the best way to sample (I.E. time frame) to show problems exist.

Comments? Opinions?

 

Go 5k before sampling.


Who's them? Are you having the tranny/clutch replaced or something?

 

You have an extended warranty, so it's not like you're trying to beat the warranty time limit.

There is NOTHING you can do better for extending the life of your tansmission than running synthetic. So, unless your Nissan dealership is going to replace the tranny immediately, I'd run the fluid for 5K and have a sample taken. Depending on the results, you can run it longer or drain/refill.

Your doing less damage now than when you had OEM fluid, so unless your hoping to finish off the tranny before the powertrain warranty expires, I'd leave it alone.

My .02, which isn't worth jack!

 

Per you and Ice..I will go 5K and refill with Redline.

Them is Nissan. I have having tranny issues not rebuild. I only have 21.5K on my car and the gearbox is being difficult.

I am not trying to finish off the gearbox as that would not accomplish anything. BUT, if I can prove that issues are happening way early in life, I can monitor it closely, with the assistance of my Nissan shop.

I dont have an extended warranty. But I should have 5/60 on drivetrain right?

 

Ooops! That was Tim.

I believe the transmission is considered powertrain, but with Nissan you never know.

 

Ice, you been drivin' through the copper mines out again?

I just ordered my sampling kits.

 

Maybe.


...I thought you said it would make my car run faster and make cool tranny noises like yours.


So, did you buy the red SE-L yet?

 

HA! Problem solved man! It's just the stinking WSP exhaust setup!
You'd never guess it (like the three mechanics and countless friends
who also heard it) if you heard it but that's definitively what it is!

So, the SE-L is off the map and that 15K is still in my pocket!

I hope to get started on the boost project after the 17th.

Hasta,

JK

 

That's why I was curious about the TBN. 8.5 is really good, for a calcium level that low. Did I understand your comments correctly, the viscosity had drifted higher?

Alex: I don't think the 5th gens have an oil cooler, not positive though. I was curious if you'd added one because of the heat out there. An oil cooler would have easily explained the copper level.

One other thing came to mind as well, when these samples were taken, did you drain directly in the bottle, or were they stored somewhere in the interim??

 

**cough**Oh ******cough**

You just made me remember something....I think I almost forgot to take a sample, so I just scooped it out of the pan.

This was a large plastic pan, but it was empty as far as I remember. Hmmmmn. I wonder if my friends Chevy left enough residue to contaminate the sample....I doubt it could have though.

I sure hope that's it! I guess I'll have to wait until my next sample to see.

 

I just switched to synthetic 5w30 at 22k miles, so I was wondering if it would be a good idea to send in a sample after a couple oil changes to get the old dino out, or just send in the first batch at a 3k interval?

Also, I'm at 25k right now and still on the factory nissan atf. From what i've read from you guys, it's a good idea to change asap. I was planning to run on royal purple or red line, but I was wondering if the tranny flush is recommened, or do I just slowly replace the old dino tranny oil each time I drain and add more synthetic like the engine oil.

 

Usually the first sample after a switch in brands is not as accurate as the second sample, but can still provide some general trend info.

It would also be best if you flushed the tranny at this time. You can flush it yourself fairly easily at home and swap all the fluid at the same time. Any particular reason you picked Redline and Royal Purple?

 

Huh, GM's engines seem to have a high level of copper in the oil, similar to Honda showing high lead numbers. That very well could have skewed your numbers. It's going to be very interesting to see your next analysis.

 

I sure hope that is what happened, but I can't imagine how enough residue on the sides/bottom of a HUGE pan could disolve and disperse enough for me to scoop it off the top.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I'm skeptical.

I'll be EXTREMELY interested also, since I'm considering now getting rid of the car well before the warranty wears out.

 

Alex,


I'm going to study Mark's and yours comments more closely late tonight before updating the sheet. Sheet should be up tomorrow morning.


Contamination looks possible.

 

Honestly, I think the Chevy would be more of a contributing factor than the outright cause. Have you joined "Bob is the Oil Guy" yet? I'm sure they would have lots of usefull comments for you. If you'd like, you can send me the full report and I'll post it there for you.

 

Yes, it's approaching a 40 weight. And you're right 8.5 for the Drive Clean Blend shows active additive is still left, so his analysis seems to be a paradox of sorts.

 

Alex,

I doubt the contamination really occurred now that I've thought about it. It is a possibility, so re-sampling at 3k just to monitor the wear metal levels would be wise. And copper is typically 200 to 300 ppm on those GM V-8s.

And you need to take the sample as the fairly warm oil is coming directly out of the pan. Scooping it out of a container can give you unreliable results.

Your oil history didn't suggest to me that anything you did caused the copper to go up.

We have yet to see VQs just wear at the copper level so we're going into uncharted waters here........

 

Bill,

All the other samples were taken EXACTLY as you specified. The Maxima oil sample just got hosed, because I was doing too many things at once.

I'll resample in about 1.5K miles time(already have 1.5K), but with Redline. I wish I would have waited longer to switch now!

 

Explain the reasons why, please.

 

An oil's TBN (total base number) is usually an indication of how much capacity the oil has to neutralize acids. The Mobil brand of oils seems to rely very heavily on calcium as it's alkaline agent. Your report showed a calcium level of 299, deathly low. A TBN of 8.5 in this oil is relatively healthy, hence Blackstone's comments that once copper is under control, you could use the oil longer. A few things worth noting is that the TBN is not a linear scale, and may have plumetted rapidly in the next several hundred miles. There's no way of knowing. Also, magnesium is sometimes used as an alkaline agent as well. However, Mobil doesn't tend to use it much, so the levels shown in your report are most likely left over from whatever was in there before. There is also the possibility that the calcium was 1299 instead of 299, which would make a lot more sense.

On a viscosity note, judging by comments made here, it sounds like the oil was trending upward towards a 40 wt. Mobil oil's have more of a tendency to thin with use. Since the oil was beginning to thicken, that's a good indication that the lighter base oil's were beginning to burn off. This is what leads to sludge formation, though it sounds like you still had quite a ways to go before it would have been a problem.

 

Thanks VERY informative. You guys know waaaaaay too much.

Should I call(email) Blackstone about the calcium measurement? Maybe they did screw up or are BS and figuring nobody would notice.

 

It's worth a call to confirm it with them. They might also have some insight for you on the TBN as well.

Speaking for myself, what I know only scratches the surface of an extremely complicated subject.

 

Thank God for Mark while life gets in my way sometimes.


Alex,


Mark's right on about TBN: it can be fickle. If you are familiar with how "e" exponentially increases, invert that and that's how TBN can decrease. As long as you are above 5 or so, your oil was not acidic. Anything much lower than that can be a red flag.


I would be most interested in any additional info Blackstone would have on such a low calcium value, especially on a Mobil brand oil.