NEWS FLASH: "Automobile experts says it's OK to use regular instead of premium"
08-07-2005, 09:47 AM
#1
NEWS FLASH: "Automobile experts says it's OK to use regular instead of premium"
or, why "autombile expert" is an oxymoron:
In this morning's paper, I read an article that appeared in the Washington Post entitled, "High-octane fuel has fewer takers" with the byline: "Even drivers of luxury cars opt for low-grade when gas prices rise."
The premise of the article is that as gas prices increase, more people opt for lower grade; aka, cheaper, gasoline. Now here's where the article touchs a nerve with all the members here who have spoken out in numerous threads about the differences between regular and premium:
"Automobile experts say using regular gas in most vehicles (that use premium) does no damage and makes no discernible difference in performance." In response to the problem of knocking or "pre-ignition," a spokesman for Chysler Engineering said:
"It does not hurt the engine -- sensors readjust the engine ...to save itself."
And, from a Mercedes-Benz service manager in Maryland comes the revelation that, not only does he use regular even though premium is recommended, but that he "gets better gas mileage."
It seems like lousy advice to me, for the majority of drivers who do not have a clue what is engine knock, to basically put all of their trust in the future of their engine to the almighty knock sensor...which, when it goes bad, does not always have the decency to alert the driver to do something about it.
Furthermore, the only way that retarding the ignition timing of anything larger than a four-banger is NOT going to have an averse effect on performance is to not mention it to the ignorant masses who don't know any better.
Finally, how dumb can a car owner be, who shells out 40 or 50 large for their ride and tries to save a whopping $3.00 a tankful at every fillup? Like what else can you buy for 3 bucks a week? A Big Mac and fries? A pack of cigarettes? A small drink at the movie theatre?
It boggles the mind (the Maxima mind, that is).
In this morning's paper, I read an article that appeared in the Washington Post entitled, "High-octane fuel has fewer takers" with the byline: "Even drivers of luxury cars opt for low-grade when gas prices rise."
The premise of the article is that as gas prices increase, more people opt for lower grade; aka, cheaper, gasoline. Now here's where the article touchs a nerve with all the members here who have spoken out in numerous threads about the differences between regular and premium:
"Automobile experts say using regular gas in most vehicles (that use premium) does no damage and makes no discernible difference in performance." In response to the problem of knocking or "pre-ignition," a spokesman for Chysler Engineering said:
"It does not hurt the engine -- sensors readjust the engine ...to save itself."
And, from a Mercedes-Benz service manager in Maryland comes the revelation that, not only does he use regular even though premium is recommended, but that he "gets better gas mileage."
It seems like lousy advice to me, for the majority of drivers who do not have a clue what is engine knock, to basically put all of their trust in the future of their engine to the almighty knock sensor...which, when it goes bad, does not always have the decency to alert the driver to do something about it.
Furthermore, the only way that retarding the ignition timing of anything larger than a four-banger is NOT going to have an averse effect on performance is to not mention it to the ignorant masses who don't know any better.
Finally, how dumb can a car owner be, who shells out 40 or 50 large for their ride and tries to save a whopping $3.00 a tankful at every fillup? Like what else can you buy for 3 bucks a week? A Big Mac and fries? A pack of cigarettes? A small drink at the movie theatre?
It boggles the mind (the Maxima mind, that is).
08-07-2005, 09:59 AM
#2
Originally Posted by dr-rjp
Finally, how dumb can a car owner be, who shells out 40 or 50 large for their ride and tries to save a whopping $3.00 a tankful at every fillup? Like what else can you buy for 3 bucks a week? A Big Mac and fries? A pack of cigarettes? A small drink at the movie theatre?
It boggles the mind (the Maxima mind, that is).
It boggles the mind (the Maxima mind, that is).
08-07-2005, 12:50 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,190
You guys are lucky. The spread between 87 octane and 91/92 octane in British Columbia is about 11.5cents/litre or Cdn$7.00 (US$5.75 plus) or more a tank. The differential is about double that of the US. Fortunately, I can buy 90 octane at Husky here for the same price as 87 octane everywhere else and its as close to 91 as d@mn is to swearing.
And the price of gas today is the highest its ever been - it works out to about US$3.62 per US gallon for 91/92 octane.
And the price of gas today is the highest its ever been - it works out to about US$3.62 per US gallon for 91/92 octane.
08-07-2005, 12:52 PM
#5
Originally Posted by MaximaSpd85
well, 3 bucks a week x 52 weeks a year....well....ur rite, i use 91+, plus im on a strict diet...no bigmacs and fries
08-07-2005, 03:34 PM
#6
well i can say that these auto experts probably just want to keep selling there cars even tho gas is going up.
not only that but chrysler and mercadese isnt really a nissan, so mabe they have some kind of advanced technology or something hahaha.
or mabe the media cought wind of it and streached it, and mabe thats not really what those people ment.
i do have one thing to say tho, with gas prices rising its really not all that differnt than inflation, however all at one time in a sudden large jump... thats what i dont like about the prices.
not only that but chrysler and mercadese isnt really a nissan, so mabe they have some kind of advanced technology or something hahaha.
or mabe the media cought wind of it and streached it, and mabe thats not really what those people ment.
i do have one thing to say tho, with gas prices rising its really not all that differnt than inflation, however all at one time in a sudden large jump... thats what i dont like about the prices.
08-07-2005, 04:11 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 1,805
Originally Posted by Bobo
And the price of gas today is the highest its ever been - it works out to about US$3.62 per US gallon for 91/92 octane.
IMO, the money you'll save using 87 versus 91 is not worth the lower performance, worse fuel economy, and risk to your engine. The people in this article don't know what they're talking about...obviously not cars that require premium fuel because they require it for a reason!
08-07-2005, 04:25 PM
#8
I've also seen news reports that say you can go more then 3 thousand miles before your oil change... I bet you could go more then 3 thousand, you could drive it till it seizes, is that really worth it? And these "auto experts" are the ones selling the cars and repairing them, so they get you to buy the car saying cheap gas will work, then when the car breaks they fix it with your money...
08-07-2005, 04:27 PM
#9
Those people in the quote don't give a d@mn if those people's cars go down the tube. Those same car owners are probably going to the stealerships for repairs so it's in their interest (until they get sued for misinformation) to spread statements like that. While technically true if your car's knock sensor works at least for safety sake, it's not the case if it breaks...
08-07-2005, 04:53 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 138
I was actually one of those people using 87 gas. Honestly...Like really honest...I was getting better MPG with 87 as of this minute. I have to wait until a few fill ups before making an actual statement. Because my MPG is actually increasing (good way) when using 87 (reached 22MPG city before switching to 91). But definitely 91 is better in terms of performance...Easy revving to 5000RPM on an auto because previously with 87, the car kind of felt like it ran out of power near the 4000RPM and an upshift is required.
08-07-2005, 05:17 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
I was using 91, then to save some money as per drive 100 miles daily, started using 87 and car felt really slow and shaking while start moving, so had to go back to 91 again. I always tought they were all the same but seems for expensive cars 91-93 is better. On my wifes 92 accord use 87 with no problems.
08-07-2005, 05:39 PM
#13
when i went from 87 to 93 octane, the engine doesnt knock and better mileage. on 87 octane i got barely 300-320 on a tank. with 93 i get from 380-420 depending on my driving habits. oh well a couple of bucks wont hurt me. to make up for it, id rather take naps during lunch at work.
08-07-2005, 06:00 PM
#15
Originally Posted by zander
I've also seen news reports that say you can go more then 3 thousand miles before your oil change... I bet you could go more then 3 thousand, you could drive it till it seizes, is that really worth it? And these "auto experts" are the ones selling the cars and repairing them, so they get you to buy the car saying cheap gas will work, then when the car breaks they fix it with your money...
08-07-2005, 07:50 PM
#16
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
Put it like this... if you use cheap gas instead of 91+ octane, all the money you have saved "$3 each time you fill up" you'll be spending that money plus may be more to get your engine fixed if something goes wrong.. ex. knock sensor ect..
The experts don't care what grade gas you put in your car as long as their sales are up..
One for the experts...
The experts don't care what grade gas you put in your car as long as their sales are up..
One for the experts...
08-07-2005, 08:16 PM
#19
..... 89... ? COUGHIN.. chocking... .... my car is on a strict 93 octane.. shure im not gonnna lie i have skipped a meal couple of times so i can give y car the gas... but then again i need to loose soem weight.. so my car is helping me with my health...
87...thats just craaazy talk... feel the diff when u put in 91+
87...thats just craaazy talk... feel the diff when u put in 91+
08-07-2005, 08:30 PM
#20
More advice for NOT using regular.
Here is an article I found recently on the CARS.COM website entitled, "The Truth About Gasoline" (http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national...odaysgas1.tmpl):
If your car requires high-octane gasoline and you habitually use regular gas because the engine exhibits no sign of knock, you’re outsmarting yourself. Most modern, computer-controlled engines include a knock sensor that detects knock and retards the ignition timing, causing the spark plugs to fire slightly later in the cycle. This typically prevents abnormal combustion and knock, which allows vehicles specified for premium fuel to run on lower-grade gasoline if it is all that’s available. While this removes the immediate hazard, it’s a bad idea to make a habit of running a vehicle on gasoline of lower-than-recommended octane. Retarding the spark causes a richer fuel/air mixture, which decreases fuel economy, increases emissions, causes the engine to run hotter, and reduces the longevity of both the engine itself and the catalytic converter. The money you save by pumping low-grade fuel into a car that demands higher octane is lost anyway, in decreased fuel economy and possibly gradual damage.
'Nuff said!
Here is an article I found recently on the CARS.COM website entitled, "The Truth About Gasoline" (http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national...odaysgas1.tmpl):
If your car requires high-octane gasoline and you habitually use regular gas because the engine exhibits no sign of knock, you’re outsmarting yourself. Most modern, computer-controlled engines include a knock sensor that detects knock and retards the ignition timing, causing the spark plugs to fire slightly later in the cycle. This typically prevents abnormal combustion and knock, which allows vehicles specified for premium fuel to run on lower-grade gasoline if it is all that’s available. While this removes the immediate hazard, it’s a bad idea to make a habit of running a vehicle on gasoline of lower-than-recommended octane. Retarding the spark causes a richer fuel/air mixture, which decreases fuel economy, increases emissions, causes the engine to run hotter, and reduces the longevity of both the engine itself and the catalytic converter. The money you save by pumping low-grade fuel into a car that demands higher octane is lost anyway, in decreased fuel economy and possibly gradual damage.
'Nuff said!
08-08-2005, 05:58 AM
#21
Originally Posted by dr-rjp
More advice for NOT using regular.
Here is an article I found recently on the CARS.COM website entitled, "The Truth About Gasoline" (http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national...odaysgas1.tmpl):
If your car requires high-octane gasoline and you habitually use regular gas because the engine exhibits no sign of knock, you’re outsmarting yourself. Most modern, computer-controlled engines include a knock sensor that detects knock and retards the ignition timing, causing the spark plugs to fire slightly later in the cycle. This typically prevents abnormal combustion and knock, which allows vehicles specified for premium fuel to run on lower-grade gasoline if it is all that’s available. While this removes the immediate hazard, it’s a bad idea to make a habit of running a vehicle on gasoline of lower-than-recommended octane. Retarding the spark causes a richer fuel/air mixture, which decreases fuel economy, increases emissions, causes the engine to run hotter, and reduces the longevity of both the engine itself and the catalytic converter. The money you save by pumping low-grade fuel into a car that demands higher octane is lost anyway, in decreased fuel economy and possibly gradual damage.
'Nuff said!
Here is an article I found recently on the CARS.COM website entitled, "The Truth About Gasoline" (http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national...odaysgas1.tmpl):
If your car requires high-octane gasoline and you habitually use regular gas because the engine exhibits no sign of knock, you’re outsmarting yourself. Most modern, computer-controlled engines include a knock sensor that detects knock and retards the ignition timing, causing the spark plugs to fire slightly later in the cycle. This typically prevents abnormal combustion and knock, which allows vehicles specified for premium fuel to run on lower-grade gasoline if it is all that’s available. While this removes the immediate hazard, it’s a bad idea to make a habit of running a vehicle on gasoline of lower-than-recommended octane. Retarding the spark causes a richer fuel/air mixture, which decreases fuel economy, increases emissions, causes the engine to run hotter, and reduces the longevity of both the engine itself and the catalytic converter. The money you save by pumping low-grade fuel into a car that demands higher octane is lost anyway, in decreased fuel economy and possibly gradual damage.
'Nuff said!
08-08-2005, 06:05 AM
#22
Originally Posted by dr-rjp
It seems like lousy advice to me, for the majority of drivers who do not have a clue what is engine knock, to basically put all of their trust in the future of their engine to the almighty knock sensor...which, when it goes bad, does not always have the decency to alert the driver to do something about it.
08-08-2005, 06:13 AM
#23
bleh I'm sick of trying to tell people to run 93 octane. Lets see, $3 a week (and thats on the high end) x 52 weeks in a year = $156 saved per year. Cost of new knock sensor at dealer price = $159, let alone installation. And that is of course if you don't lose any gas mileage (which you will), and if nothing else goes wrong (which it will).
As for the guy about oil, I change my oil every 5K miles, with full synthetic. A friend of mine with a 2k2 SE (6 speed) changes his every 8K. In your owners manual there is a nifty guide to figure out hte proper interval.
As for the guy about oil, I change my oil every 5K miles, with full synthetic. A friend of mine with a 2k2 SE (6 speed) changes his every 8K. In your owners manual there is a nifty guide to figure out hte proper interval.
08-08-2005, 06:14 AM
#24
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
If the ecu detects a malfunctioning knock sensor it reverts to fail-safe retarded ignition mapping, so engine damage is avoided even when the knock sensor goes bad.
08-08-2005, 06:15 AM
#25
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
That doesn't apply to OBDII vehicles except maybe in open loop mode. The feedback loop uses O2 sensors to determine afr and ensures stoichiometric combustion, regardless of what octane fuel you are using.
08-08-2005, 06:24 AM
#26
Originally Posted by Chickan
Most of it still applies, and with retarded timing you will lose power and fuel economy.
Retarding the spark causes a richer fuel/air mixture, which decreases fuel economy, increases emissions, causes the engine to run hotter, and reduces the longevity of both the engine itself and the catalytic converter. The money you save by pumping low-grade fuel into a car that demands higher octane is lost anyway, in decreased fuel economy and possibly gradual damage.
None of this applies to an OBDII vehicle in closed loop mode (which is probably more than 95% of the time), except for decreased fuel economy.
08-08-2005, 06:27 AM
#27
Originally Posted by Chickan
Though "fail safe" isn't really fail safe, it is just safer. It is still possible to knock while in fail safe mode. And also, if you knock sensor fails, you are going to lose up to 10mpg. There goes your money saved.
There would have to be something seriously wrong with your engine if it still knocks with fail-safe mode ignition timing. But we are talking about normally running engines with 87 octane fuel.
08-08-2005, 06:30 AM
#28
Originally Posted by Chickan
And also, if you knock sensor fails, you are going to lose up to 10mpg. There goes your money saved.
08-08-2005, 06:34 AM
#29
Originally Posted by deezo
Hmmmmm, I got over 500 miles to one tank with my bad KS. I didn't know it was bad at the time either.
08-08-2005, 06:41 AM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,190
Originally Posted by deezo
Hmmmmm, I got over 500 miles to one tank with my bad KS. I didn't know it was bad at the time either.
08-08-2005, 10:23 AM
#32
looking at the price of a knock sensor, i rather keep using plus and premium.
btw, i dont know if its true but analyzing where i buy my gas, it seems the cheap gas (not cheap as in regular but cheap as in places u buy it) seem to not last as long as the expensive gas. Some tell me its watered down or whatever so thats why i always buy from expensive spots. But is this true? in general do u really get smaller gas mileage from cheaper gas?
btw, i dont know if its true but analyzing where i buy my gas, it seems the cheap gas (not cheap as in regular but cheap as in places u buy it) seem to not last as long as the expensive gas. Some tell me its watered down or whatever so thats why i always buy from expensive spots. But is this true? in general do u really get smaller gas mileage from cheaper gas?
08-08-2005, 10:47 AM
#33
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by HomerMAC
..... 89... ? COUGHIN.. chocking... .... my car is on a strict 93 octane.. shure im not gonnna lie i have skipped a meal couple of times so i can give y car the gas... but then again i need to loose soem weight.. so my car is helping me with my health...
87...thats just craaazy talk... feel the diff when u put in 91+
87...thats just craaazy talk... feel the diff when u put in 91+
HomerMAC or anyone... can you tell the diff between 93 octane and 91?
08-08-2005, 11:21 AM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 194
You guys crack me up.
If your car requires premium, as my '00 Prelude did, that is what I will fill it with...regardless of the price.
The Maxima DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM. DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM.
All the people who are putting in 89/91/93 for whatever reason don't have to.
It specifically states that you can put in 87, but for more performance you can put in higher.
If you want to spent more for it, for whatever reason, go ahead. But to say that you need premium and that engine failure is going to happen if you dont, is ridiculous.
If your car requires premium, as my '00 Prelude did, that is what I will fill it with...regardless of the price.
The Maxima DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM. DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM.
All the people who are putting in 89/91/93 for whatever reason don't have to.
It specifically states that you can put in 87, but for more performance you can put in higher.
If you want to spent more for it, for whatever reason, go ahead. But to say that you need premium and that engine failure is going to happen if you dont, is ridiculous.
08-08-2005, 11:46 AM
#36
Originally Posted by Bones45
You guys crack me up.
If your car requires premium, as my '00 Prelude did, that is what I will fill it with...regardless of the price.
The Maxima DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM. DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM.
All the people who are putting in 89/91/93 for whatever reason don't have to.
It specifically states that you can put in 87, but for more performance you can put in higher.
If you want to spent more for it, for whatever reason, go ahead. But to say that you need premium and that engine failure is going to happen if you dont, is ridiculous.
If your car requires premium, as my '00 Prelude did, that is what I will fill it with...regardless of the price.
The Maxima DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM. DOES NOT REQUIRE PREMIUM.
All the people who are putting in 89/91/93 for whatever reason don't have to.
It specifically states that you can put in 87, but for more performance you can put in higher.
If you want to spent more for it, for whatever reason, go ahead. But to say that you need premium and that engine failure is going to happen if you dont, is ridiculous.
its a crappy pic, but you can go look on page 9-2 of your owners manual, says 91 is recommended, and if you CANT get it, 87 will do, but with loss of engine performance. that doesnt just mean speed neccessarily, that means the engine aint gonna run right. just give it the good stuff.
08-08-2005, 12:15 PM
#38
The engine will run just fine with 87 octane fuel, but it will be more susceptible to knock. If knock is detected the KS will pull timing, with a resulting loss in power. That's all that will happen.
08-08-2005, 12:24 PM
#39
thats the way my ks died out, i was runing the car with 89 for atleast 3k miles, i didnt know i was supposed to use 91 and up.. well that was when i was a newb.
btw when my ks was bad, i would smell the rotten eggs from the cat alot, and i didnt realise it until now when i read that article
btw when my ks was bad, i would smell the rotten eggs from the cat alot, and i didnt realise it until now when i read that article
08-08-2005, 01:16 PM
#40
Originally Posted by Bones45
I read what it says.
"that means the engine aint gonna run right?"
Umm no. That is NOT what it means.
"that means the engine aint gonna run right?"
Umm no. That is NOT what it means.