2002 Original Coolant = BAD??
2002 Original Coolant = BAD??
Okay - this goes against my retentive nature, but I haven't changed the original coolant in my car yet. I have a 2k2 with 49k miles.
Obviously, I'm supposed to have changed the coolant by now - but can somebody explain to me exactly how coolant breaks-down, and why it is necessary to replace it at certain intervals?? Does this stuff go bad over time, or does it break-down with usage like the viscosity of Engine Oil??
By my account, I'm over the 48 month recommendation by about 6 months, but under on the 60k mile interval. I typically follow the Schedule 1& 2 regimen in the owner's manual.
It's getting dang cold here, and this is the first midwestern winter my max has seen. Any advice you Coolant experts can give me would be appreciated!
**Also, any recommendations on a full flush at a dealer/mechanic vs. home drain and fill method are welcome!
Thanks!
gr
Obviously, I'm supposed to have changed the coolant by now - but can somebody explain to me exactly how coolant breaks-down, and why it is necessary to replace it at certain intervals?? Does this stuff go bad over time, or does it break-down with usage like the viscosity of Engine Oil??
By my account, I'm over the 48 month recommendation by about 6 months, but under on the 60k mile interval. I typically follow the Schedule 1& 2 regimen in the owner's manual.
It's getting dang cold here, and this is the first midwestern winter my max has seen. Any advice you Coolant experts can give me would be appreciated!
**Also, any recommendations on a full flush at a dealer/mechanic vs. home drain and fill method are welcome!
Thanks!
gr
Guest
Posts: n/a
more than likely you are just fine. OEM nissan coolant is really good stuff, and will last at least 5yrs. coolant does not thicken like oil. What happens over time is the anti-corrosion additives are used up. in extreme cases they can fall out of solution and plug things up (think GM "death cool", or the traditional silicated "green snot of death"). the reason to change coolant is to replenish these anti-corrosion additives - that's it.
you can do a quick check by taking your rad cap off when the engine is cold -look inside. you should see clean dark green coolant up to the neck of the hole with no "floaties" in it. if that's what you see you can rest easy until next spring.
if you want to change it use OEM nissan coolant ONLY. some on here believe toyota coolant is better -- but since you can get them both at about the same price why take chances on mixing fluids with subtle chemical differences? (it is really tough to do a flush without some fluid mixing).
you have two change options, flush or drain/fill:
Drain/Fill - when cold, pull the radiator drain plug and drain the coolant. Fill slowly (to allow air to escape) with a 50/50 mix of OEM nissan coolant & distilled water. purge air (see below)
Flush - drain radiator, fill with 100% distilled water, purge air (see below). with heat/blower on full blast, heat cycle the engine (2 fan cycles). cool. drain radiator. repeat until clear water drains from radiator (will take about 4 cycles - but the water never gets 100% clear). when clear water drains, fill radiator with 100% coolant (to get a 50/50 mix in the system). purge air (see below)
Purge air -- after filling the radiator, start engine with radiator cap off and heat blowing full blast. keep radiator full of water/coolant as the water pump pulls it down. rev engine to 2k RPMs several times. when engine heats up thermostat will open and spew hot water/coolant into radiator and it will overflow -- cap it now (this process purges air from the system). listen for gurgling in the heater core (inside the car) if you hear it, purge again.
NOTE: on 5th gens there may be an air bleeder nut somewhere in the system - if so, open it up when filling the radiator and keep open until coolant spews out of it - you may have to start the engine to do this. you should still purge air out of the radiator using the process above.
TIP - you can buy OEM Nissan coolant online for about $13/gal (this is full strength, which is the only kind nissan sells). Or ask you local dealer for a discount on the price -- I've never had to pay more than $18/gal locally (list price is something ridiculous like $28/gal).
you can do a quick check by taking your rad cap off when the engine is cold -look inside. you should see clean dark green coolant up to the neck of the hole with no "floaties" in it. if that's what you see you can rest easy until next spring.
if you want to change it use OEM nissan coolant ONLY. some on here believe toyota coolant is better -- but since you can get them both at about the same price why take chances on mixing fluids with subtle chemical differences? (it is really tough to do a flush without some fluid mixing).
you have two change options, flush or drain/fill:
Drain/Fill - when cold, pull the radiator drain plug and drain the coolant. Fill slowly (to allow air to escape) with a 50/50 mix of OEM nissan coolant & distilled water. purge air (see below)
Flush - drain radiator, fill with 100% distilled water, purge air (see below). with heat/blower on full blast, heat cycle the engine (2 fan cycles). cool. drain radiator. repeat until clear water drains from radiator (will take about 4 cycles - but the water never gets 100% clear). when clear water drains, fill radiator with 100% coolant (to get a 50/50 mix in the system). purge air (see below)
Purge air -- after filling the radiator, start engine with radiator cap off and heat blowing full blast. keep radiator full of water/coolant as the water pump pulls it down. rev engine to 2k RPMs several times. when engine heats up thermostat will open and spew hot water/coolant into radiator and it will overflow -- cap it now (this process purges air from the system). listen for gurgling in the heater core (inside the car) if you hear it, purge again.
NOTE: on 5th gens there may be an air bleeder nut somewhere in the system - if so, open it up when filling the radiator and keep open until coolant spews out of it - you may have to start the engine to do this. you should still purge air out of the radiator using the process above.
TIP - you can buy OEM Nissan coolant online for about $13/gal (this is full strength, which is the only kind nissan sells). Or ask you local dealer for a discount on the price -- I've never had to pay more than $18/gal locally (list price is something ridiculous like $28/gal).
wow - GREAT response!
Thank you very much. That is exactly what I was looking for; knowledge, not opinion.
I understand the basic priniciples of coolant and fluids, but I needed a little validation from those who know more.
Given the way I maintain my car, I should be fine until spring. I've checked the rad, and all is just fine.
Thanks again for the advice.
gr
Thank you very much. That is exactly what I was looking for; knowledge, not opinion.
I understand the basic priniciples of coolant and fluids, but I needed a little validation from those who know more.
Given the way I maintain my car, I should be fine until spring. I've checked the rad, and all is just fine.
Thanks again for the advice.
gr
Coolant 101
Well - I'm post-whoring my own thread.....
I solicited another response on my motorcycle forum, and this is one interesting bit that I got from a "man downunder":
**********************************************
"Ethylene Glycol is good stuff, adding some to water can lower its freezing point AND raise its boiling point, in proportion to dilution ratio.
It's a special type of alcohol, but poisonous to people and a bit evil on the environment.
A cooling system for an internal-combustion engine generally uses various metals such as aluminum, cast aluminum, cast iron, steel, brass, magnesium alloy, solder and copper, which are subject to corrosion over time by water or moist air or even electrolysis. In order to inhibit metal corrosion, a metal corrosion inhibiting solution such as an antifreeze/coolant composition containing a metal corrosion inhibitor is generally blended in the cooling liquid or water in the cooling system.
Numerous antifreeze compositions are known which contain corrosion inhibitors and inhibitors for preventing decomposition of the Ethylene Glycol. These corrosion inhibitors and stabilisers for alcohol decomposition include both organic materials and inorganic materials. <I didn't put a list of these here, but ask if you want it>
Coolants containing metal silicates are effective corrosion inhibitors for metals in internal combustion engines, especially aluminum. However, use of metallic silicates in antifreeze compositions is disadvantageous since these compositions have a tendency to gel and form precipitates during use as a coolant. If your engine goes for long periods unused, then this becomes a significant problem. It means limited protection from corrosion.
An antifreeze/coolant composition inherently contains some air dissolved therein, which will generate air bubbles or cavitation within the cooling system due chiefly to local fluidic pressure difference and/or vibrations generated through the cooling system. Metal portions, particularly iron parts, of the cooling system can be damaged or corroded by the bubbles, which is called "cavitation damage". Steel cylinder liner and aluminium pump impeller are common victims.
Coolants suitable for older cast iron engines are not suitable for a complex engine of varied metals such as in newer vehicles.
Over time, the glycol is decomposed by oxidation and by products formed from the anti-corrosion activity, primarily due to inclusion of air in the system. The water quality used for dilution of the coolant concentrate also has a large influence on coolant life. Ordinary tap water may be "hard", containing multiple metal salts which can consume the anti-corrosion inhibitors quite quickly.
Using de-ionized or distilled water is advised, for initial dilution and top-ups.
Ideal Glycol content will depend on where you live. Depending upon the actual dilution, the proportion of corrosion and stabilisers may not be appropriate.
For this reason, look for a product that is tailored to your local conditions. e.g. don't use the stuff for really cold climates where the recommended proportion is 60-70% Glycol and assume that because you live in a warm place, you can simply dilute it out to 30% and save money. The balance of inhibitors will be wrong, exposing your cooling system to corrosion or cavitation damage.
Inhibitors are oxidised over time, Glycol then breaks down, resulting in loss of corrosion protection and a narrower range of temperature protection from boiling or freezing.
Change ALL fluids every 2 years. After that you're in Russian roulette territory for protection. Practically speaking, corrosion is irreversible, requiring replacement of many parts."
I solicited another response on my motorcycle forum, and this is one interesting bit that I got from a "man downunder":
**********************************************
"Ethylene Glycol is good stuff, adding some to water can lower its freezing point AND raise its boiling point, in proportion to dilution ratio.
It's a special type of alcohol, but poisonous to people and a bit evil on the environment.
A cooling system for an internal-combustion engine generally uses various metals such as aluminum, cast aluminum, cast iron, steel, brass, magnesium alloy, solder and copper, which are subject to corrosion over time by water or moist air or even electrolysis. In order to inhibit metal corrosion, a metal corrosion inhibiting solution such as an antifreeze/coolant composition containing a metal corrosion inhibitor is generally blended in the cooling liquid or water in the cooling system.
Numerous antifreeze compositions are known which contain corrosion inhibitors and inhibitors for preventing decomposition of the Ethylene Glycol. These corrosion inhibitors and stabilisers for alcohol decomposition include both organic materials and inorganic materials. <I didn't put a list of these here, but ask if you want it>
Coolants containing metal silicates are effective corrosion inhibitors for metals in internal combustion engines, especially aluminum. However, use of metallic silicates in antifreeze compositions is disadvantageous since these compositions have a tendency to gel and form precipitates during use as a coolant. If your engine goes for long periods unused, then this becomes a significant problem. It means limited protection from corrosion.
An antifreeze/coolant composition inherently contains some air dissolved therein, which will generate air bubbles or cavitation within the cooling system due chiefly to local fluidic pressure difference and/or vibrations generated through the cooling system. Metal portions, particularly iron parts, of the cooling system can be damaged or corroded by the bubbles, which is called "cavitation damage". Steel cylinder liner and aluminium pump impeller are common victims.
Coolants suitable for older cast iron engines are not suitable for a complex engine of varied metals such as in newer vehicles.
Over time, the glycol is decomposed by oxidation and by products formed from the anti-corrosion activity, primarily due to inclusion of air in the system. The water quality used for dilution of the coolant concentrate also has a large influence on coolant life. Ordinary tap water may be "hard", containing multiple metal salts which can consume the anti-corrosion inhibitors quite quickly.
Using de-ionized or distilled water is advised, for initial dilution and top-ups.
Ideal Glycol content will depend on where you live. Depending upon the actual dilution, the proportion of corrosion and stabilisers may not be appropriate.
For this reason, look for a product that is tailored to your local conditions. e.g. don't use the stuff for really cold climates where the recommended proportion is 60-70% Glycol and assume that because you live in a warm place, you can simply dilute it out to 30% and save money. The balance of inhibitors will be wrong, exposing your cooling system to corrosion or cavitation damage.
Inhibitors are oxidised over time, Glycol then breaks down, resulting in loss of corrosion protection and a narrower range of temperature protection from boiling or freezing.
Change ALL fluids every 2 years. After that you're in Russian roulette territory for protection. Practically speaking, corrosion is irreversible, requiring replacement of many parts."
Guest
Posts: n/a
^good info. I didn't think breakdown of the actual glycol was a big concern, but I suppose it could go hand-in-hand with the corrosion inhibitors.
the one thing I would add (maybe this was in his list of inhibitors) is that there are 2 general categories of ethylene glycol based coolants - OAT/HOAT and "traditional silicated". the traditional silicated is the good old fashioned green that was widely used until the late 90s. it had to be changed every 18-24 months to prevent the silicates from falling out of solution (or "gelling" as he put it). the newer "long life" coolants such as GM Dexcool, G05, and all the Japanese coolants are based on an "organic acid technology" (or "OAT") for corrosion protection. These OAT coolants do not contain silicates, and in the case of the Japanese, they contain no nitrites or borates either. It is important, therefore, not to mix a Japanese coolant with anything else. There are also hybrid OAT (or HOAT) coolants such as G05 that do contain a small amount of silicates for quick protection, and then rely on the long term protection of OAT. GM had some initial problems with its texaco version of Dexcool, which became known as "deathcool", but the problems have supposedly been fixed.
The long life OAT/HOAT coolants supposedly protect against corrosion up to 10yrs or 100k miles. I would never run it that long, though. as you stated, Nissan says 60k or 48 months for the factory fill, and then every 24 months after that. I believe this is a conservative recommendation based on the condition of the 60k coolant I drained from my '99, but better safe than sorry I suppose.
there is also a whole family of propylene glycol based coolants that I know nothing about.
another source for some good coolant info is...
http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...=0&Board=UBB37
the one thing I would add (maybe this was in his list of inhibitors) is that there are 2 general categories of ethylene glycol based coolants - OAT/HOAT and "traditional silicated". the traditional silicated is the good old fashioned green that was widely used until the late 90s. it had to be changed every 18-24 months to prevent the silicates from falling out of solution (or "gelling" as he put it). the newer "long life" coolants such as GM Dexcool, G05, and all the Japanese coolants are based on an "organic acid technology" (or "OAT") for corrosion protection. These OAT coolants do not contain silicates, and in the case of the Japanese, they contain no nitrites or borates either. It is important, therefore, not to mix a Japanese coolant with anything else. There are also hybrid OAT (or HOAT) coolants such as G05 that do contain a small amount of silicates for quick protection, and then rely on the long term protection of OAT. GM had some initial problems with its texaco version of Dexcool, which became known as "deathcool", but the problems have supposedly been fixed.
The long life OAT/HOAT coolants supposedly protect against corrosion up to 10yrs or 100k miles. I would never run it that long, though. as you stated, Nissan says 60k or 48 months for the factory fill, and then every 24 months after that. I believe this is a conservative recommendation based on the condition of the 60k coolant I drained from my '99, but better safe than sorry I suppose.
there is also a whole family of propylene glycol based coolants that I know nothing about.
another source for some good coolant info is...
http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...=0&Board=UBB37
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,187
Take your car to a radiator shop and get them to do a pH test of the coolant with a test strip. That will indicate in 2 seconds what the condition of your coolant is.
Do not go cheap on trying to extend the life of radiator coolant if you plan on keeping your vehicle for any length of time.
I'm not familiar with the recommended change intervals for 5th/5.5 Gens but for a 4th Gen its every 2 years or 30K.
My coolant is presently getting to be marginal based on a test I had in October. I got the radiator flushed 2-1/2 years ago and have only put on 14,300 mostly highway miles since. I think time rather than miles is the major contributor on when to replace the coolant.
At this time, you should have a complete flush of the system, rather than just a drain and fill.
For my money, I just shop around and get it done profesionally as I couldn't be bothered and the cost is peanuts in the scheme of things.
Don't sweat the small stuff!
Do not go cheap on trying to extend the life of radiator coolant if you plan on keeping your vehicle for any length of time.
I'm not familiar with the recommended change intervals for 5th/5.5 Gens but for a 4th Gen its every 2 years or 30K.
My coolant is presently getting to be marginal based on a test I had in October. I got the radiator flushed 2-1/2 years ago and have only put on 14,300 mostly highway miles since. I think time rather than miles is the major contributor on when to replace the coolant.
At this time, you should have a complete flush of the system, rather than just a drain and fill.
For my money, I just shop around and get it done profesionally as I couldn't be bothered and the cost is peanuts in the scheme of things.
Don't sweat the small stuff!
Guest
Posts: n/a
be careful with those test strips. not all of them work with Japanese coolant chemistry - I used them on my old Camry and it said the pH was out of spec. so I flushed with fresh toyota red, and tested again and got the same bad pH result. I have yet to figure which ones do work, but I would not trust a shop to know the difference -- most of them do not even know that Japanese coolants are different. and most of them will install recycled "green" coolant into every car they service unless you bring in your own bottle and watch over them as they work. one nissan dealer in the Chicago area does the same thing (the same dealer that tried to convince me the VQ30DE had VTCs). I also caught them installing aftermarket reman brake calipers they got from the local discount auto store and passing them off as new OEM.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,994
From: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Good Advice above. You should check the stickie above on changing coolant as well.
Elsewhere on this site it was reported that Nissan, Honda and Toyota all use the same coolant (the only difference is the dye color) -- so shop all of your local dealers and buy the one that is cheapest. Reportedly the Nissan coolant is more expensive than the Toyota -- which is the only reason that this coolant was recommended -- not that it is better.
Elsewhere on this site it was reported that Nissan, Honda and Toyota all use the same coolant (the only difference is the dye color) -- so shop all of your local dealers and buy the one that is cheapest. Reportedly the Nissan coolant is more expensive than the Toyota -- which is the only reason that this coolant was recommended -- not that it is better.
Guest
Posts: n/a
hey silvermax you're back. you have a background in chemistry, right? can you explain why pH strips differ based on coolant type -- isn't pH just a generic property like viscosity? seems like the stirps should be universal, but they aren't.
on the topic of Japanese coolant types -- on bitog there used to be a collection of coolant VOAs that showed differences in the additive packages of honda/yota/nissan. those reports seem to be gone now, however. in any case, all 3 are based on the same general formula of no silicates, borates, or amines but with a dose of phosphates for fast acting protection.
on the topic of Japanese coolant types -- on bitog there used to be a collection of coolant VOAs that showed differences in the additive packages of honda/yota/nissan. those reports seem to be gone now, however. in any case, all 3 are based on the same general formula of no silicates, borates, or amines but with a dose of phosphates for fast acting protection.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,994
From: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Originally Posted by sky jumper
hey silvermax you're back. you have a background in chemistry, right? can you explain why pH strips differ based on coolant type -- isn't pH just a generic property like viscosity? seems like the stirps should be universal, but they aren't.
I agree with you that the strips should be universal. I don't know that they are not. Perhaps they have a tendency to degrade with age, which causes the problems. They could absorb moisture from the air, which may be the problem. But now you are getting into topics beyond my pay grade (when I was earning pay).
Dealerships = SUCK.
I called around to two local Nissan dealers this morning in search of the "Good" Nissan coolant.
I was horrified to find that NEITHER one stocked it, and NEITHER one even KNEW what it was. They both used regular old off-the-shelf coolant.
Nice.
Is it ANY wonder why I don't take my car to the dealer to be serviced anymore?! I've caught so many in bold-faced lies, I just have no faith.
I digress.....
So - anyone know a few good online sources for StrAIGHT-up (non-diluted) Nissan Long-Life Coolant?!
I called the local Toyota dealer for the RED stuff, and he only carried the 50/50 for $15.95 gal. Now THAT is a rip-off!.....that's $32 per gallon of anti-freeze!!!!!
Funny how we'll pay triple that amount for a gallon of Jack Daniels, isn't it?!
gr
I was horrified to find that NEITHER one stocked it, and NEITHER one even KNEW what it was. They both used regular old off-the-shelf coolant.
Nice.
Is it ANY wonder why I don't take my car to the dealer to be serviced anymore?! I've caught so many in bold-faced lies, I just have no faith.
I digress.....
So - anyone know a few good online sources for StrAIGHT-up (non-diluted) Nissan Long-Life Coolant?!
I called the local Toyota dealer for the RED stuff, and he only carried the 50/50 for $15.95 gal. Now THAT is a rip-off!.....that's $32 per gallon of anti-freeze!!!!!
Funny how we'll pay triple that amount for a gallon of Jack Daniels, isn't it?!
gr
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 836
From: Central Iowa
FWIW - I changed mine in my '00 Max @ 3 years w/approx. 50K, and again @ 5 years w/ 81K just before selling it to a buddy.
He had it in western Nebraska earlier this summer when it started to overheat. Found out the radiator was plugged and wouldn't flow at all. Perhaps an isolated incident, but I wouldn't push it - it's just too easy to do prophylactically. Fortunately, he didn't get too hot at me!
He had it in western Nebraska earlier this summer when it started to overheat. Found out the radiator was plugged and wouldn't flow at all. Perhaps an isolated incident, but I wouldn't push it - it's just too easy to do prophylactically. Fortunately, he didn't get too hot at me!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by ghostrider17
I called around to two local Nissan dealers this morning in search of the "Good" Nissan coolant.
I was horrified to find that NEITHER one stocked it, and NEITHER one even KNEW what it was. They both used regular old off-the-shelf coolant.
Nice.
Is it ANY wonder why I don't take my car to the dealer to be serviced anymore?! I've caught so many in bold-faced lies, I just have no faith.
I digress.....
So - anyone know a few good online sources for StrAIGHT-up (non-diluted) Nissan Long-Life Coolant?!
I called the local Toyota dealer for the RED stuff, and he only carried the 50/50 for $15.95 gal. Now THAT is a rip-off!.....that's $32 per gallon of anti-freeze!!!!!
Funny how we'll pay triple that amount for a gallon of Jack Daniels, isn't it?!
gr
I was horrified to find that NEITHER one stocked it, and NEITHER one even KNEW what it was. They both used regular old off-the-shelf coolant.
Nice.
Is it ANY wonder why I don't take my car to the dealer to be serviced anymore?! I've caught so many in bold-faced lies, I just have no faith.
I digress.....
So - anyone know a few good online sources for StrAIGHT-up (non-diluted) Nissan Long-Life Coolant?!
I called the local Toyota dealer for the RED stuff, and he only carried the 50/50 for $15.95 gal. Now THAT is a rip-off!.....that's $32 per gallon of anti-freeze!!!!!
Funny how we'll pay triple that amount for a gallon of Jack Daniels, isn't it?!
gr
a while back there were a number of places like pinnalce nissan that sold it for about $13/gal. those places now charge $16. you can still get it for $14 from directpartsconnection.com (which is part of the trademotion network that many dealers use to sell parts online at various prices).
watch out for the shipping charges, though. for a single bottle of coolant you may pay too much in shipping to make it worth your while. some places do not charge shipping for orders over $50 (like Gerrand's nissan) so you may give them a call and see what they can do for you (combine it with some oil & air filters to get a $50 order and free shipping, etc).
this is why I just found a local dealer that would sell it for $18/gal.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,136
From: Pleasanton,CA
Originally Posted by gizzsdad
Found out the radiator was plugged and wouldn't flow at all. Perhaps an isolated incident ...!
IMHO, I would stick with $20 Nissan Coolant to avoid a $2000 blown head gasket cleanup!!!
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