AMSOIL API Certification
11-24-2001, 08:11 PM
#1
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
AMSOIL API Certification
Anybody know why only the XL-7500 series of Amsoil synthetics are API certified? They state that their other oils meet or exceed the SJ specifications but haven't earned the API starburst seal. I heard somewhere that it's because their oils have a high phosphorus/zinc content which shortens the life of catalytic converters.
The Nissan owners manual states that you should use an API certified motor oil. If you hose a motor while using a non-API oil does Nissan have the right to deny warranty coverage?
BTW, I understand that Redline doesn't make ANY API certified oils either.
CFster
The Nissan owners manual states that you should use an API certified motor oil. If you hose a motor while using a non-API oil does Nissan have the right to deny warranty coverage?
BTW, I understand that Redline doesn't make ANY API certified oils either.
CFster
11-25-2001, 02:54 PM
#3
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 608
Originally posted by Jeff92se
I think their website states it's very expensive to get the certificates.
I think their website states it's very expensive to get the certificates.
11-25-2001, 02:56 PM
#4
I would think they would certify the one that they sell the most of. Regardless of where it lies in the quality ladder.
Originally posted by srbarnes4ever
That's interesting, but if they put forth the cost for their least expensive oil, you'd think they'd do the same for their theoretically better brands.....Or maybe they expect us to assume that if they're lowest cost synthetic meets the spec, then the others surely do. Not sure, but I use Amsoil oil and filters.
That's interesting, but if they put forth the cost for their least expensive oil, you'd think they'd do the same for their theoretically better brands.....Or maybe they expect us to assume that if they're lowest cost synthetic meets the spec, then the others surely do. Not sure, but I use Amsoil oil and filters.
11-25-2001, 03:38 PM
#6
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Originally posted by Jeff92se
I think their website states it's very expensive to get the certificates.
I think their website states it's very expensive to get the certificates.
11-25-2001, 04:17 PM
#7
Originally posted by CFster
I understand that they already went through the process (spent the money) and failed the test - so to speak.
I understand that they already went through the process (spent the money) and failed the test - so to speak.
11-25-2001, 06:43 PM
#8
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Originally posted by iwannabmw
What do you have to support this claim!! I find that almost impossible to believe.
What do you have to support this claim!! I find that almost impossible to believe.
What don't you believe? That they failed the test?
Why in the world wouldn't an oil manufacturer want API certification? Do you think they didn't bother to do the test? Common sense says they would have all of their oils tested. So either they knew they couldn't pass, or they had it tested and failed. The fact remains the same - only the XL7500 series of Amsoil products is certified. And those only in the 5w30 and 10w30 weights. Actually the API site lists an Amsoil PCO 15w40 motor oil as being certified also - must be a diesel oil.
What amazes me is that they go so far as to state in their FAQ that their lubricants wouldn't void the factory warranty. I really think they should have said that only about the XL7500 series. In my experience in the automotive industry it is exceedingly difficult to get Nissan in particular to warranty an engine if you can't prove it has been maintained properly. The API thing is a technicality but I'm sure they would use it to their advantage. Just like an insurance company, the automakers pay people to think up ways to get out of warranty claims.
I also noticed on their frontpage that they recommend a 25K mile/1 yr drain interval for their synthetic oils. Where does it say be sure to use the XL-7500 oil which is the only one that is API certified? And the average miles per year for most vehicles is 12K miles BTW. Is there some kind of warranty behind this claim? This is beginning to smell like Slick50.
Forgive me if I'm not digging deep enough into their website to find this stuff.
Jeff92se can you post the link to their webpage where they say it's very expensive to get certified? I've been browsing around for a while with no luck so far.
Hell, Acme Auto Parts got their own brand of oils certified and they're just a little **** ant chain of stores.
Anyway, here is the site which lists all API certified oils: http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs.cgi
CFster
11-25-2001, 10:14 PM
#9
Cfster.
You have read this right? http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
Again, the XL7500 series was designed for shorter use, not for the 25k drain intervals. It was marketed/designed for the user still not confortable w/ the long drain intervals that the other products have(ie.. 2000 series) Thus again, it's probably one of their biggest sellers. Again it would make sense to offically approve this one first.
To your specfic question: BTW what do you have against Amsoil anyway? Especially given the data you have no douobt read?
I would have to dig pretty hard to find that. I'd be interested in find where you found that they failed the test. Again, if the test is ultra expensive, they can't justify it for low volume sales. Makes sense? I would be interested in finding if ANY of the small synthetics makers have this or not. I do believe Mobil 1 synthetics have it, but then again they are a huge company. Redline and Amsoil have stats published by independant tests showing their properties vs other oils(synthetic or normal). Bundling Amsoil w/ Slick 50 would be like bundling Don's VB mod w/ the Tornado intake. Amsoil has been around since the mid/early 70's and their track record speaks for itself.It's not a large company(vs Mobil) because not enough people can't break 50 years of industry propraganda against synthetics.
I can't see how you could really question Amsoil or other synthetics if you have truely read the stickies and saw the data.
I do agree that Nissan might try to deny claims due to the user not adhering to the change schedule or using "certified" oil. But that would be due to the maker's ignorance, not product inferiority. Technically, Nissan would have to prove that the oil was somehow to blame, I don't see how they could prove that. Tests w/ Amsoil, Mobil 1 and even regular dino done by our own members, clearly show that these oils are still good after the recommended change intervals. That in itself would good enough to disprove Nissan's "claims" that oil would be to blame.
You have read this right? http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
Again, the XL7500 series was designed for shorter use, not for the 25k drain intervals. It was marketed/designed for the user still not confortable w/ the long drain intervals that the other products have(ie.. 2000 series) Thus again, it's probably one of their biggest sellers. Again it would make sense to offically approve this one first.
To your specfic question: BTW what do you have against Amsoil anyway? Especially given the data you have no douobt read?
I would have to dig pretty hard to find that. I'd be interested in find where you found that they failed the test. Again, if the test is ultra expensive, they can't justify it for low volume sales. Makes sense? I would be interested in finding if ANY of the small synthetics makers have this or not. I do believe Mobil 1 synthetics have it, but then again they are a huge company. Redline and Amsoil have stats published by independant tests showing their properties vs other oils(synthetic or normal). Bundling Amsoil w/ Slick 50 would be like bundling Don's VB mod w/ the Tornado intake. Amsoil has been around since the mid/early 70's and their track record speaks for itself.It's not a large company(vs Mobil) because not enough people can't break 50 years of industry propraganda against synthetics.
I can't see how you could really question Amsoil or other synthetics if you have truely read the stickies and saw the data.
I do agree that Nissan might try to deny claims due to the user not adhering to the change schedule or using "certified" oil. But that would be due to the maker's ignorance, not product inferiority. Technically, Nissan would have to prove that the oil was somehow to blame, I don't see how they could prove that. Tests w/ Amsoil, Mobil 1 and even regular dino done by our own members, clearly show that these oils are still good after the recommended change intervals. That in itself would good enough to disprove Nissan's "claims" that oil would be to blame.
11-25-2001, 11:19 PM
#10
Amsoil warranty information regarding the API certification. http://www.the-oilman.com/questions/link3.html
Took my like 5 min of searching on the net.
Took my like 5 min of searching on the net.
11-26-2001, 01:33 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
What do I have against Amsoil?
I think it's a bad idea to recommend to people that they change their oil at 25k mile intervals.
They didn't make that warranty very apparent (silly me, I thought it might be in their own website) and it doesn't look very specific or official. It doesn't say anything about a 25K interval (well, I guess that could fall under the "company's recommedations" section). Nor does it state exactly what Amsoil will do if there is engine damage. It also doesn't state which of their oils are covered under said warranty. All of them? Even the non-API ones? I wonder if they've bought any engines.
What you just said about the XL-7500 proves what I said in my earlier post. I thought the XL7500 was the oil that they recommended for the 25K change. I thought they would at least recommend you use the API certified oil. Now you're telling me its the non-API oil? That's even worse.
Ok, I'm an ASE tech and have been fixing cars for 15 years and have seen all manner of things come out of an oil pan during an oil change. I still believe that while the oil may not break down, and probably still retains its lubrication properties, there is still the matter of foreign substances suspended in it which may cause increased wear. For that reason alone there's no way I would dream of waiting 25k to pull the oil plug. And I'm not going to count on the filter to get it all out, even if I'm changing that at 12.5K miles.
That said, my main gripe is that there could be potential warranty problems with Nissan. We have over a thousand Nissans on our lot where I work (through NMAC - we're an auction) and occasionally one comes in with a blown motor. Nissan tries every excuse in the book to get out of replacing an engine. We've got to the point where we'll just sell the car on the back of a tow truck that way. Yep, NMAC will take the loss. I see it first hand all the time. And we have NMAC backing us. Hell, if Nissan wont warranty their own cars what are they going to do for the guy off the street? I think if they found out you didn't change the oil at the specified intervals they would deny coverage. Using a non-API certified oil (against the recommendation which is clearly stated in the owners manual) only compounds the problem. We have the same problem with American Honda Finance - they give us a hard time if they don't see Honda oil filter on the engine.
BTW, as for the test, I notice their are over 400 companies listed API's website that have passed the test. Amsoil is a small company but not as small as some of the ones on that list. I can go down to the local autoparts store and buy some - it's on the shelf. I think that they're big enough. No, I really don't think it was a money issue. I think that either they didn't do the test (because they knew their products would fail), or they did do the test and failed. The end result is the same.
I must say I was shocked to learn that Amsoil had made the 25K claim back in 1972 when they first introduced their synthetic oil. Since everything was carburated back then one would assume that the oil pan would be filled with mostly gasoline after that amount of time. I mean, everything just ran too rich. I remember pulling the dipstick on my carburated car after the winter and seeing an extra half a quart of oil (actually gas) because it was running on choke a lot of the time. Those were the days of the 3K mile LOF remember?
These days it's more understandable as everything is fuel injected and runs super lean. Even BMW is recommending a 15K mile LOF for their vehicles which come with Mobil One. But the word is the only reason they did this was as a selling point and that customers usually come in with a list of mechanical problems they want fixed under warranty when they're in for service. I mean hey, those cars are great but they're no Toyota in terms of reliability. They wanted to minimze the time the car was in the shop (at their cost), and who cares what happens to the engine after the warranty period is up.
Make no mistake, I am a supporter of synthetic oils. I use them in my own vehicles at more realistic 7500 mile drain intervals. Hey maybe I could go 12K, it's tough though, I just love my car too much.
I think it's a bad idea to recommend to people that they change their oil at 25k mile intervals.
They didn't make that warranty very apparent (silly me, I thought it might be in their own website) and it doesn't look very specific or official. It doesn't say anything about a 25K interval (well, I guess that could fall under the "company's recommedations" section). Nor does it state exactly what Amsoil will do if there is engine damage. It also doesn't state which of their oils are covered under said warranty. All of them? Even the non-API ones? I wonder if they've bought any engines.
What you just said about the XL-7500 proves what I said in my earlier post. I thought the XL7500 was the oil that they recommended for the 25K change. I thought they would at least recommend you use the API certified oil. Now you're telling me its the non-API oil? That's even worse.
Ok, I'm an ASE tech and have been fixing cars for 15 years and have seen all manner of things come out of an oil pan during an oil change. I still believe that while the oil may not break down, and probably still retains its lubrication properties, there is still the matter of foreign substances suspended in it which may cause increased wear. For that reason alone there's no way I would dream of waiting 25k to pull the oil plug. And I'm not going to count on the filter to get it all out, even if I'm changing that at 12.5K miles.
That said, my main gripe is that there could be potential warranty problems with Nissan. We have over a thousand Nissans on our lot where I work (through NMAC - we're an auction) and occasionally one comes in with a blown motor. Nissan tries every excuse in the book to get out of replacing an engine. We've got to the point where we'll just sell the car on the back of a tow truck that way. Yep, NMAC will take the loss. I see it first hand all the time. And we have NMAC backing us. Hell, if Nissan wont warranty their own cars what are they going to do for the guy off the street? I think if they found out you didn't change the oil at the specified intervals they would deny coverage. Using a non-API certified oil (against the recommendation which is clearly stated in the owners manual) only compounds the problem. We have the same problem with American Honda Finance - they give us a hard time if they don't see Honda oil filter on the engine.
BTW, as for the test, I notice their are over 400 companies listed API's website that have passed the test. Amsoil is a small company but not as small as some of the ones on that list. I can go down to the local autoparts store and buy some - it's on the shelf. I think that they're big enough. No, I really don't think it was a money issue. I think that either they didn't do the test (because they knew their products would fail), or they did do the test and failed. The end result is the same.
I must say I was shocked to learn that Amsoil had made the 25K claim back in 1972 when they first introduced their synthetic oil. Since everything was carburated back then one would assume that the oil pan would be filled with mostly gasoline after that amount of time. I mean, everything just ran too rich. I remember pulling the dipstick on my carburated car after the winter and seeing an extra half a quart of oil (actually gas) because it was running on choke a lot of the time. Those were the days of the 3K mile LOF remember?
These days it's more understandable as everything is fuel injected and runs super lean. Even BMW is recommending a 15K mile LOF for their vehicles which come with Mobil One. But the word is the only reason they did this was as a selling point and that customers usually come in with a list of mechanical problems they want fixed under warranty when they're in for service. I mean hey, those cars are great but they're no Toyota in terms of reliability. They wanted to minimze the time the car was in the shop (at their cost), and who cares what happens to the engine after the warranty period is up.
Make no mistake, I am a supporter of synthetic oils. I use them in my own vehicles at more realistic 7500 mile drain intervals. Hey maybe I could go 12K, it's tough though, I just love my car too much.
11-26-2001, 07:03 AM
#12
[making a rare post]
Not to let facts rear its ugly head, but my first lab tested Amsoil interval on my 94 (hopefully to be updated this week) went 13k miles on just one filter over a 10 month period, with Blackstone stating that the oil wasn't in use too long, even though the viscosity had degraded to 15W/40 because I was too cheap to replace the filter after 6 months as Amsoil recommends. (That, and my 120k service includes replacing seals that didn't justify throwing a new filter in use for a couple of months). I would say the viscosity would not have degraded had I changed the filter at the appropriate time.
My dad goes 20k miles a year; my wife goes 18k a year; I go 16 to 18k per year. Plenty of people go extended mileage on oil.
The Oil Analysis Spreadsheet makes it clear that with Amsoil you should change it on time rather than mileage (exactly as they recommend), despite my new results that could allow for going on mileage.
The certification stuff does not bother me because of my lab results that I have spent a few hundred bucks on. If Nissan wants to go to court should something happen, then I say bring it on. Only by lab analysis do you have objective evidence rather than the "they said/you said" stuff.
Whether you think it's a bad idea to change oil at 25k is up to you and is your opinion. Trying to make that opinion factual by essence of your feelings only will have myself and Jeff bugging you for several days straight.
There's nothing wrong with just being truthful and stating you don't like Amsoil and believe no one should use it. It's another thing to wrap your opinions around an occasional fact to try and get all of us to follow your opinion as fact like a bunch of lemmings. That's why the Oil Analysis Spreadsheet is available for all to see. It cuts through any B.S. myself or anyone else states and/or believes.
I'm going to crawl back in my hole now.
Have a good one, everybody!
[/making a rare post]
Not to let facts rear its ugly head, but my first lab tested Amsoil interval on my 94 (hopefully to be updated this week) went 13k miles on just one filter over a 10 month period, with Blackstone stating that the oil wasn't in use too long, even though the viscosity had degraded to 15W/40 because I was too cheap to replace the filter after 6 months as Amsoil recommends. (That, and my 120k service includes replacing seals that didn't justify throwing a new filter in use for a couple of months). I would say the viscosity would not have degraded had I changed the filter at the appropriate time.
My dad goes 20k miles a year; my wife goes 18k a year; I go 16 to 18k per year. Plenty of people go extended mileage on oil.
The Oil Analysis Spreadsheet makes it clear that with Amsoil you should change it on time rather than mileage (exactly as they recommend), despite my new results that could allow for going on mileage.
The certification stuff does not bother me because of my lab results that I have spent a few hundred bucks on. If Nissan wants to go to court should something happen, then I say bring it on. Only by lab analysis do you have objective evidence rather than the "they said/you said" stuff.
Whether you think it's a bad idea to change oil at 25k is up to you and is your opinion. Trying to make that opinion factual by essence of your feelings only will have myself and Jeff bugging you for several days straight.
There's nothing wrong with just being truthful and stating you don't like Amsoil and believe no one should use it. It's another thing to wrap your opinions around an occasional fact to try and get all of us to follow your opinion as fact like a bunch of lemmings. That's why the Oil Analysis Spreadsheet is available for all to see. It cuts through any B.S. myself or anyone else states and/or believes.
I'm going to crawl back in my hole now.
Have a good one, everybody!
[/making a rare post]
11-26-2001, 08:49 AM
#15
CFster. Dany is right. Use what you want. But make no doubt, it's clear that you didn't read ANY of the links or have a leg to stand on.
ie...
1) Small oil makers like who? Target brand or similar? They just buy their oil from major oil makers and relabel them.
2) XL7500 series. It states CLEARLY on thier site, that this oil is NOT designed for the 25k oil change intervals. What the hell are you talking about then?
3) I never said the XL series was not api approved. You just said it was. Sheesh. Going back on your statements now?
4) All the warranty info is already stated on the link I provided. Read it next time. What warranty does you precious dino oil give if your engine fails even though you changed it after 200 miles? What is that? None?
5) If your carbed engine runs on the choke all the time, that is not a properly running engine. And thus that voids the Amsoil warranty(as it would for every other oil maker(if they even offer a warranty) and probably the car maker's warranty(which it should). If you found a quart of gas in oil car's oil, the engine is probably toast.
Since you refuse to read the links, then from now one, I refuse to use logic in my statements. Fight fire w/ fire right? Where's that link where Amsoil failed the api test?
ie...
1) Small oil makers like who? Target brand or similar? They just buy their oil from major oil makers and relabel them.
2) XL7500 series. It states CLEARLY on thier site, that this oil is NOT designed for the 25k oil change intervals. What the hell are you talking about then?
3) I never said the XL series was not api approved. You just said it was. Sheesh. Going back on your statements now?
4) All the warranty info is already stated on the link I provided. Read it next time. What warranty does you precious dino oil give if your engine fails even though you changed it after 200 miles? What is that? None?
5) If your carbed engine runs on the choke all the time, that is not a properly running engine. And thus that voids the Amsoil warranty(as it would for every other oil maker(if they even offer a warranty) and probably the car maker's warranty(which it should). If you found a quart of gas in oil car's oil, the engine is probably toast.
Since you refuse to read the links, then from now one, I refuse to use logic in my statements. Fight fire w/ fire right? Where's that link where Amsoil failed the api test?
11-26-2001, 09:39 AM
#16
Originally posted by Jeff92se
CFster. Dany is right. Use what you want. But make no doubt, it's clear that you didn't read ANY of the links or have a leg to stand on.
ie...
1) Small oil makers like who? Target brand or similar? They just buy their oil from major oil makers and relabel them.
2) XL7500 series. It states CLEARLY on thier site, that this oil is NOT designed for the 25k oil change intervals. What the hell are you talking about then?
3) I never said the XL series was not api approved. You just said it was. Sheesh. Going back on your statements now?
4) All the warranty info is already stated on the link I provided. Read it next time. What warranty does you precious dino oil give if your engine fails even though you changed it after 200 miles? What is that? None?
5) If your carbed engine runs on the choke all the time, that is not a properly running engine. And thus that voids the Amsoil warranty(as it would for every other oil maker(if they even offer a warranty) and probably the car maker's warranty(which it should). If you found a quart of gas in oil car's oil, the engine is probably toast.
Since you refuse to read the links, then from now one, I refuse to use logic in my statements. Fight fire w/ fire right? Where's that link where Amsoil failed the api test?
CFster. Dany is right. Use what you want. But make no doubt, it's clear that you didn't read ANY of the links or have a leg to stand on.
ie...
1) Small oil makers like who? Target brand or similar? They just buy their oil from major oil makers and relabel them.
2) XL7500 series. It states CLEARLY on thier site, that this oil is NOT designed for the 25k oil change intervals. What the hell are you talking about then?
3) I never said the XL series was not api approved. You just said it was. Sheesh. Going back on your statements now?
4) All the warranty info is already stated on the link I provided. Read it next time. What warranty does you precious dino oil give if your engine fails even though you changed it after 200 miles? What is that? None?
5) If your carbed engine runs on the choke all the time, that is not a properly running engine. And thus that voids the Amsoil warranty(as it would for every other oil maker(if they even offer a warranty) and probably the car maker's warranty(which it should). If you found a quart of gas in oil car's oil, the engine is probably toast.
Since you refuse to read the links, then from now one, I refuse to use logic in my statements. Fight fire w/ fire right? Where's that link where Amsoil failed the api test?
CF like i said...if u want to change the oil every week u can. if i wanted to change it every other day i can...well kinda gets $$. but u get my point. only YOU know how your car runs and when things need to get changed.
Amsoil's 25K change...if you want to go by it then go do so. if you want to change their 25K oil at 3K..then do it.
now play nice guys.
11-26-2001, 10:14 AM
#17
Dany, I agree. If he wants to use bacon fat I wouldn't care. Just don't flame other legitimate companies on the basis of opinion and false research as was done here.
Originally posted by DanNY
as you can see Jeff is very passionate with his "lubrication"...Jeff take it ez man.
CF like i said...if u want to change the oil every week u can. if i wanted to change it every other day i can...well kinda gets $$. but u get my point. only YOU know how your car runs and when things need to get changed.
Amsoil's 25K change...if you want to go by it then go do so. if you want to change their 25K oil at 3K..then do it.
now play nice guys.
as you can see Jeff is very passionate with his "lubrication"...Jeff take it ez man.
CF like i said...if u want to change the oil every week u can. if i wanted to change it every other day i can...well kinda gets $$. but u get my point. only YOU know how your car runs and when things need to get changed.
Amsoil's 25K change...if you want to go by it then go do so. if you want to change their 25K oil at 3K..then do it.
now play nice guys.
11-26-2001, 11:18 AM
#18
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Originally posted by Jeff92se
CFster. Dany is right. Use what you want. But make no doubt, it's clear that you didn't read ANY of the links or have a leg to stand on.
ie...
1) Small oil makers like who? Target brand or similar? They just buy their oil from major oil makers and relabel them.
2) XL7500 series. It states CLEARLY on thier site, that this oil is NOT designed for the 25k oil change intervals. What the hell are you talking about then?
3) I never said the XL series was not api approved. You just said it was. Sheesh. Going back on your statements now?
4) All the warranty info is already stated on the link I provided. Read it next time. What warranty does you precious dino oil give if your engine fails even though you changed it after 200 miles? What is that? None?
5) If your carbed engine runs on the choke all the time, that is not a properly running engine. And thus that voids the Amsoil warranty(as it would for every other oil maker(if they even offer a warranty) and probably the car maker's warranty(which it should). If you found a quart of gas in oil car's oil, the engine is probably toast.
Since you refuse to read the links, then from now one, I refuse to use logic in my statements. Fight fire w/ fire right? Where's that link where Amsoil failed the api test?
CFster. Dany is right. Use what you want. But make no doubt, it's clear that you didn't read ANY of the links or have a leg to stand on.
ie...
1) Small oil makers like who? Target brand or similar? They just buy their oil from major oil makers and relabel them.
2) XL7500 series. It states CLEARLY on thier site, that this oil is NOT designed for the 25k oil change intervals. What the hell are you talking about then?
3) I never said the XL series was not api approved. You just said it was. Sheesh. Going back on your statements now?
4) All the warranty info is already stated on the link I provided. Read it next time. What warranty does you precious dino oil give if your engine fails even though you changed it after 200 miles? What is that? None?
5) If your carbed engine runs on the choke all the time, that is not a properly running engine. And thus that voids the Amsoil warranty(as it would for every other oil maker(if they even offer a warranty) and probably the car maker's warranty(which it should). If you found a quart of gas in oil car's oil, the engine is probably toast.
Since you refuse to read the links, then from now one, I refuse to use logic in my statements. Fight fire w/ fire right? Where's that link where Amsoil failed the api test?
2. and 3. I originally thought the XL series (API) was the one they recommended for the 25k interval. Stupid me, it makes sense doesn't it? My mistake, and I never accused of any false claims in that regard. Turns out it's the exact opposite right? First they are recommending a 25k oil change (bad idea). Then they are compounding it by suggesting you use the oil that isn't certified. Am I the only one who sees a problem here? The Nissan owners manual is quite clear on this.
4. I read the warranty. It doesn't state which oil you should use (XL or not), and it doesn't state what kind of reimbursement Amsoil will make in case of a failure. And where is it on the Amsoil website? That's an external link. As for my "dino" oil, if I follow the manufacturers recommended service intervals and use API certified oil then I wont have a problem getting Nissan to warranty it will I?
5. I don't know how old you are, but back in the days of carburated engines it was common for them to run on choke for a long period of time on a cold day. Even without choke, carburated vehicles by nature burn more gas (some of it ends up in the oil pan). Why do you think they recommended 3k LOF intervals instead of the 5k to 7.5k intervals we see today?
Let's get this straight. I read the links and am familiar with synthetic oils and their benifits. Actually, I was a synthetic oil supporter (and use it in my own vehicles) long before this board existed. My bad if I stated that they failed the API test. In that case, can SOMEBODY give me a reason why they wouldn't want API certification for their oils? Excluding the XL series. I don't believe it was a money issue (you have to show ME some facts otherwise). That just doesn't make any sense. This seems to be sore subject among alot of people. You claim I must not know the benefits of synthetic oils and how dare I question Amsoil. But nobody has come out with an answer. Why aren't they certified? Four hundred other oil companies are. And it really bugs me how they state their oils meet or exceed the API SJ specification. The fact is they don't! They would have earned the starburst seal. Can somebody tell me the difference between "meet or exceed" and "has API certification"? Looks like grounds for a class action lawsuit ala Slick50 if people start launching motors.
You guys are dancing around the facts here.
Yes I said facts, here they are:
1. Only the XL-7500 series of motor oils is certified.
2. The synthetic motor oil that Amsoil recommends for their extended drain intervals is NOT certified (whatever oil that is).
3. Nissan has a recommended drain interval stated in their owners manual.
4. Nissan states that you should use a motor oil which is API certified in their vehicles.
5. Their warranty doesn't state (link you showed me)which synthetic motor oil you should use to be covered. (Does this cover their XL-7500 series - which seems to be reverse engineered to meet the certification).
6. Their warranty doesn't state (link you showed me) anything about the 25k interval. Actually looks a little unspecific to me. Not to mention with a blatant grammatical error. And I disagree completely with their claim that extended drain intervals don't void factory warranties. Absolutely false. You don't know how many times I've been denied coverage because a dealer said the oil hadn't been changed in 20k miles.
Hey you guys have been here for a long time and doubtless have had good luck with Amsoil. I'm sure nobody here is affiliated with them right? Because that would put a bias on this whole discussion.
As for my opinion it's based on fifteen years of fixing cars and experiences with warranty issues. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Since this is usually what a forum is for I posted my disagreement with Amsoil's claims. Since some of the moderators are Amsoil supporters I sure I'm on the verge of being banned - but I hope not.
This will be my last post in this thread. I could continue to argue my point but I don't want to make any enemies and at this point it's just argueing anyway.
11-26-2001, 11:43 AM
#19
Fine. Don't like it? Don't use it.
Slick 50 was on the market for about 5 years or so before it was sued in court for false claims?
Amsoil has been in business since 1972 and has their has made the basic claims since 1972 correct? Yet no class action suit has risen?(that we know of anyway)
What does that mean?
1) No one has bothered to sue Amsoil or..
2) Amsoil actually performs as they claim.
Believe what ever one you want I guess.
If you don't want to use an oil that doesn't have the API starburst(whatever that stands for), that's fine. To me it's just a stamp to legitimize warranty claims. How did Nissan(or whoever) determine that the oil was not changed for 20,000 miles? Did they use Amsoil? Did they change the oil filters per the Amsoil schedule? Did they use Amsoil filters? Did Nissan use an oil analysis to determine the condition of the oil? Of course if you use dino oil and didn't change it for 20k w/o changing the oil filter, Nissan would have a legit claim.
In a previous post, you still used the "color" of the oil to determine the condition of the oil. In my opinion, after 15 years of wrenching on cars, I would think you would be more savy than that. You want me to dig up that post too?
Again the XL series was designed for people who changed their oil frequently anyway. Why engineer an oil to last so long when the consumer changes it anyway. For those that have healthy engines and know what their are doing, use the 2000 series oils that are engineered for long drain intervals. Your question on why would Amsoil make the XL series is like saying why would Mobil still offer dino oil if they synthetics are so much better. Hmmm could it be price? Again I'll leave it up to you
As for carbed engines, I'm familar w/ them. If the choke was adjusted in a way to allow 1 quart of gas in the oil(however you measured that is beyond me) it would seem that car's choke was not adjusted correctly. Or is that the normal way carbed engines are supposed to be operating? The one on my father's F150 w/ the 390 didn't.
Again how about while you wait for me to dig up the api thing w/ Amsoil, you dig up the same for Amsoil failing the api test? Why is that I have to provide all this written "proof" while you can just rely on your "15 years" of experience? Like using the color of oil to determine the oil's condition?
But again, use what you want. BTW you are not even close to being banned. A battle of opinions is not a bad thing. So feel free to give your rebuttal. Espeically on this. If after looking at the link that stated the properties of Amsoil vs other oils(which it stackes up very nicely against), you still rely on the fact that it failed the api test. So your entire argument is based on something you have failed to dig up right? I await your reply.
Slick 50 was on the market for about 5 years or so before it was sued in court for false claims?
Amsoil has been in business since 1972 and has their has made the basic claims since 1972 correct? Yet no class action suit has risen?(that we know of anyway)
What does that mean?
1) No one has bothered to sue Amsoil or..
2) Amsoil actually performs as they claim.
Believe what ever one you want I guess.
If you don't want to use an oil that doesn't have the API starburst(whatever that stands for), that's fine. To me it's just a stamp to legitimize warranty claims. How did Nissan(or whoever) determine that the oil was not changed for 20,000 miles? Did they use Amsoil? Did they change the oil filters per the Amsoil schedule? Did they use Amsoil filters? Did Nissan use an oil analysis to determine the condition of the oil? Of course if you use dino oil and didn't change it for 20k w/o changing the oil filter, Nissan would have a legit claim.
In a previous post, you still used the "color" of the oil to determine the condition of the oil. In my opinion, after 15 years of wrenching on cars, I would think you would be more savy than that. You want me to dig up that post too?
Again the XL series was designed for people who changed their oil frequently anyway. Why engineer an oil to last so long when the consumer changes it anyway. For those that have healthy engines and know what their are doing, use the 2000 series oils that are engineered for long drain intervals. Your question on why would Amsoil make the XL series is like saying why would Mobil still offer dino oil if they synthetics are so much better. Hmmm could it be price? Again I'll leave it up to you
As for carbed engines, I'm familar w/ them. If the choke was adjusted in a way to allow 1 quart of gas in the oil(however you measured that is beyond me) it would seem that car's choke was not adjusted correctly. Or is that the normal way carbed engines are supposed to be operating? The one on my father's F150 w/ the 390 didn't.
Again how about while you wait for me to dig up the api thing w/ Amsoil, you dig up the same for Amsoil failing the api test? Why is that I have to provide all this written "proof" while you can just rely on your "15 years" of experience? Like using the color of oil to determine the oil's condition?
But again, use what you want. BTW you are not even close to being banned. A battle of opinions is not a bad thing. So feel free to give your rebuttal. Espeically on this. If after looking at the link that stated the properties of Amsoil vs other oils(which it stackes up very nicely against), you still rely on the fact that it failed the api test. So your entire argument is based on something you have failed to dig up right? I await your reply.
11-26-2001, 03:36 PM
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
If you insist.
"To me it's just a stamp to legitimize warranty claims."
I agree. But that is the unfortunate truth and the crux of my whole arguement. I don't have a problem with their oil and it probably does outperfom other sythetics (if you say so). But what I'm talking about is that API certification. I really think it's a problem. You can show Nissan all the Blackstone Lab results you want but I don't they'll care. And I don't think it will hold up in court either. You can bet if somebody drags Nissan into court that Nissan is going to do their own oil analysis to prove it is indeed Amsoil. Oops! Nissan states in the manual that API certified oil should be used. Case closed.
As for the API test, my arguement is this. I don't have to prove my claim. It's inconsequential. The fact is that their oils aren't API certified. That's the only thing that matters. Look on a bottle. There is no symbol. So I guess the question is this - why not?
Either A. They took the test and failed.
Or B. They didn't bother.
Almost every other company makes sure their oils are certified. Why? It would seem to me that it would cover their asses and it's good advertising. WTF, Wal-Mart brand is API certified. Do you think the people going into Wal-Mart care about API certification? No, all they care about is price. But Wal-Mart still deems it necessary. Why doesn't Amsoil? It just doesn't make sense to me. The only solution is that they can't get them certified. Wether or not they failed a test or simply chose not to do it because they knew their oil wouldn't qualify is irrelevent. I think my theory is more plausible than "it's very expensive to get the certificates". Sounds like an excuse to me.
Amsoil claims that their oil is for a certain API service classification, but omit the fact that it is not actually certified (without stating why)- sleezy.
I have a source that says it's because their oils have an unusually high concentration of phosphorus and zinc. Supposedly this is detrimental to catalytic converters (according to API). I'm working on confirming this.
"To me it's just a stamp to legitimize warranty claims."
I agree. But that is the unfortunate truth and the crux of my whole arguement. I don't have a problem with their oil and it probably does outperfom other sythetics (if you say so). But what I'm talking about is that API certification. I really think it's a problem. You can show Nissan all the Blackstone Lab results you want but I don't they'll care. And I don't think it will hold up in court either. You can bet if somebody drags Nissan into court that Nissan is going to do their own oil analysis to prove it is indeed Amsoil. Oops! Nissan states in the manual that API certified oil should be used. Case closed.
As for the API test, my arguement is this. I don't have to prove my claim. It's inconsequential. The fact is that their oils aren't API certified. That's the only thing that matters. Look on a bottle. There is no symbol. So I guess the question is this - why not?
Either A. They took the test and failed.
Or B. They didn't bother.
Almost every other company makes sure their oils are certified. Why? It would seem to me that it would cover their asses and it's good advertising. WTF, Wal-Mart brand is API certified. Do you think the people going into Wal-Mart care about API certification? No, all they care about is price. But Wal-Mart still deems it necessary. Why doesn't Amsoil? It just doesn't make sense to me. The only solution is that they can't get them certified. Wether or not they failed a test or simply chose not to do it because they knew their oil wouldn't qualify is irrelevent. I think my theory is more plausible than "it's very expensive to get the certificates". Sounds like an excuse to me.
Amsoil claims that their oil is for a certain API service classification, but omit the fact that it is not actually certified (without stating why)- sleezy.
I have a source that says it's because their oils have an unusually high concentration of phosphorus and zinc. Supposedly this is detrimental to catalytic converters (according to API). I'm working on confirming this.
11-26-2001, 04:01 PM
#21
Api certification vs Nissan warranty. Could very well be. But I thought Nissan would have to prove that the oil was the direct cause of the failure of the said part. Analysis would show that the oil is in fine condition(we assume here) then how could the oil cause the failure of the said part?
Again yes, lots of "Wal-Mart" brands of oil are api certified. Why wouldn't it be? It's just another major brand's oil w/ the Wal-Mart name. You don't think Wal-Mart has their own oil refinary do you? So if they just rebrand Quaker State oil and if Quaker is api, then Wal-Mart brand is also. That doesn't mean Wal-Mart went out and had the oil recertified correct? You have to realize that even though you see millions of "brands", there are only probably a handfull of actuall different refiners. ie...Mobil, Valvoline, Penzoil, etc...
I do believe Amsoil says their oils(or at least most of them for car use) meets or exceeds the api certification. What is wrong with that? If it does indeed to this, then why wouldn't they offer that statement? Especially when that's what the ave consumer needs for confidence.
Again. You state that the XL series has the api starburst. Why this one only? I ASSUME they would do this one becuase it's probably their best seller. It makes sense because of the lower drain intervals mean they could probably sell it for less to compete w/ all the OTHER oils that are NOT engineered for long drain intervals. I only assume that the high cost of api certification doesn't allow Amsoil to justify it for their other oil offerings(even if they are superior in material). Why becuase they are more expensive and the sales volume can't justify it. Makes perfect sense to me. Doesn't to you?
Again yes, lots of "Wal-Mart" brands of oil are api certified. Why wouldn't it be? It's just another major brand's oil w/ the Wal-Mart name. You don't think Wal-Mart has their own oil refinary do you? So if they just rebrand Quaker State oil and if Quaker is api, then Wal-Mart brand is also. That doesn't mean Wal-Mart went out and had the oil recertified correct? You have to realize that even though you see millions of "brands", there are only probably a handfull of actuall different refiners. ie...Mobil, Valvoline, Penzoil, etc...
I do believe Amsoil says their oils(or at least most of them for car use) meets or exceeds the api certification. What is wrong with that? If it does indeed to this, then why wouldn't they offer that statement? Especially when that's what the ave consumer needs for confidence.
Again. You state that the XL series has the api starburst. Why this one only? I ASSUME they would do this one becuase it's probably their best seller. It makes sense because of the lower drain intervals mean they could probably sell it for less to compete w/ all the OTHER oils that are NOT engineered for long drain intervals. I only assume that the high cost of api certification doesn't allow Amsoil to justify it for their other oil offerings(even if they are superior in material). Why becuase they are more expensive and the sales volume can't justify it. Makes perfect sense to me. Doesn't to you?
11-26-2001, 04:29 PM
#22
Okay. For the Zinc content. Check this link. It looks like they use less than a measureable amount. Since this analysis is fairly old, I'm gonna say it probably doesn't include the newest XL series but it probably includes the series 2000 and anything older.
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
For phosphorus. According to my Blackstone report, it's an anti-wear additive. Now I just dug up my latest emissions report. I believe I was running Amsoil at that time.
Cruise: HC(ppm) Co % CO+CO2%
Allowable 220 1.2% > 6.0%
Actual 0003 00.00 15.34
IDLE
ALLOWABLE 220 1.2% >6.0%
ACTUAL 0002 00.00 15.00
This is with a new RT cat and Cattman Y on a 3-gen. NOX ppm is not required in my State. So I don't see how Phosporus could lead to high emissions(at least in my case)???
I'll have to try to access the other reports to see what they have. I don't have PDF software on my networked computor.
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
For phosphorus. According to my Blackstone report, it's an anti-wear additive. Now I just dug up my latest emissions report. I believe I was running Amsoil at that time.
Cruise: HC(ppm) Co % CO+CO2%
Allowable 220 1.2% > 6.0%
Actual 0003 00.00 15.34
IDLE
ALLOWABLE 220 1.2% >6.0%
ACTUAL 0002 00.00 15.00
This is with a new RT cat and Cattman Y on a 3-gen. NOX ppm is not required in my State. So I don't see how Phosporus could lead to high emissions(at least in my case)???
I'll have to try to access the other reports to see what they have. I don't have PDF software on my networked computor.
11-26-2001, 07:18 PM
#23
Ah, yet another endless thread on oil. Some people don't need to be married to know they are fully devoted to each other, a mariage certificate is just a piece of paper. Maybe it's something similar with Amsoil. They and their customers don't need the official API certification to know their oil is good. Their reputation speaks for itself. Sorry, this thread needed to be lightened a little.
As for me, I'm done with this thread unless someone can show me that Amsoil failed the test. Simply assuming so because one of their oils is certified and one isn't doesn't cut it.
As for me, I'm done with this thread unless someone can show me that Amsoil failed the test. Simply assuming so because one of their oils is certified and one isn't doesn't cut it.
11-26-2001, 10:50 PM
#24
I'm trying to add some new info(not like anyone cares but anyhoo)
Originally posted by iwannabmw
Ah, yet another endless thread on oil. Some people don't need to be married to know they are fully devoted to each other, a mariage certificate is just a piece of paper. Maybe it's something similar with Amsoil. They and their customers don't need the official API certification to know their oil is good. Their reputation speaks for itself. Sorry, this thread needed to be lightened a little.
As for me, I'm done with this thread unless someone can show me that Amsoil failed the test. Simply assuming so because one of their oils is certified and one isn't doesn't cut it.
Ah, yet another endless thread on oil. Some people don't need to be married to know they are fully devoted to each other, a mariage certificate is just a piece of paper. Maybe it's something similar with Amsoil. They and their customers don't need the official API certification to know their oil is good. Their reputation speaks for itself. Sorry, this thread needed to be lightened a little.
As for me, I'm done with this thread unless someone can show me that Amsoil failed the test. Simply assuming so because one of their oils is certified and one isn't doesn't cut it.
11-27-2001, 02:40 AM
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Yes, I agree Wal-Mart doesn't have its own refinery
From the API website:
"API's Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS) is a voluntary licensing and certification program that authorizes engine oil marketers who meet specified requirements to use the API Engine Oil Quality Marks—the API Service Symbol "Donut" and Certification Mark "Starburst."
I think their are two major sources for crude in this country, Pennsylvania crude and Texas crude. Don't ask me where the synthetics come from. Anyhow, it looks like the text of their statement says it's an agreement between the API and the oil "marketers". And if you click on the Wal-Mart link on the list it states the same. I'm still trying to find something out about the procedures/costs involved. Maybe it is indeed true that the certification is carried over from their suppliers.
On your link it says "data not available" and there's no phosphorus rating. Apparently the two go together. From what I understand those two compounds are what gives Amsoil their exceptional lubrication properties. Most synthetics have it - Amsoil just uses more. The word is (and I'm trying to confirm this) is that excessive amounts of those compounds could be detrimental to catalytic converters (over an extended period of time). That is why API doesn't allow those high levels. I think they reversed engineered their 7500 series (lowered the levels of phosphorus/zinc) to enable it to pass the API. Thus, they don't recommend the 7500 for extended drain because it doesn't have those exceptional lubrication properties.
It's interesting to see that Amsoil has some of the best numbers in that test. I had never questioned Amsoil's performance. My issue is the warranty thing. Theirs and the automakers. I still don't see how they can make a 25K claim about a non-API oil.
Has anybody here actually done the 25K mile drain interval? My car's out of warranty, but even if I was driving all highway miles I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it. Even though I use Amsoil now
From the API website:
"API's Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS) is a voluntary licensing and certification program that authorizes engine oil marketers who meet specified requirements to use the API Engine Oil Quality Marks—the API Service Symbol "Donut" and Certification Mark "Starburst."
I think their are two major sources for crude in this country, Pennsylvania crude and Texas crude. Don't ask me where the synthetics come from. Anyhow, it looks like the text of their statement says it's an agreement between the API and the oil "marketers". And if you click on the Wal-Mart link on the list it states the same. I'm still trying to find something out about the procedures/costs involved. Maybe it is indeed true that the certification is carried over from their suppliers.
On your link it says "data not available" and there's no phosphorus rating. Apparently the two go together. From what I understand those two compounds are what gives Amsoil their exceptional lubrication properties. Most synthetics have it - Amsoil just uses more. The word is (and I'm trying to confirm this) is that excessive amounts of those compounds could be detrimental to catalytic converters (over an extended period of time). That is why API doesn't allow those high levels. I think they reversed engineered their 7500 series (lowered the levels of phosphorus/zinc) to enable it to pass the API. Thus, they don't recommend the 7500 for extended drain because it doesn't have those exceptional lubrication properties.
It's interesting to see that Amsoil has some of the best numbers in that test. I had never questioned Amsoil's performance. My issue is the warranty thing. Theirs and the automakers. I still don't see how they can make a 25K claim about a non-API oil.
Has anybody here actually done the 25K mile drain interval? My car's out of warranty, but even if I was driving all highway miles I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it. Even though I use Amsoil now
11-27-2001, 07:26 AM
#26
Originally posted by CFster
Has anybody here actually done the 25K mile drain interval? My car's out of warranty, but even if I was driving all highway miles I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it. Even though I use Amsoil now
Has anybody here actually done the 25K mile drain interval? My car's out of warranty, but even if I was driving all highway miles I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it. Even though I use Amsoil now
The answer to your question is, technically, no. However, if you bothered to actually look at the oil analysis spreadsheet, you will see a TL that went 22,000 miles on one drain interval with Amsoil. This is the first vehicle I'm aware of on the 'net that has done this with lab results to back it up. If you look at the spreadsheet, or even my comments within the thread for this particular vehicle, you will see that going that long is not a good idea on a Honda motor. Comparatively, you will see that this particular Honda V6 shows a lot of lead from bearing wear that is a Honda signature according to Blackstone, while the Nissan V6's we have tested don't show such wear.
However, I now hold proof that Amsoil will go 13k on one oil filter over a 10 month period, although its insolubles content suggest simply changing a filter would not lengthen its useable life significantly. As I stated yesterday, I would wager it could have gone much longer if a filter change was really performed at the 6 month mark.
Getting hung up on a sticker is as bad as wanting a UL listing for an electrical product. It's basically a fee to get a product on the market and to make people feel better. It isn't indicative of actual performance, as you should well know.
Furthermore, Amsoil's XL-7500 oil is designed to take advantage of customers that fall for the '3k Jiffy Lube' ads. Amsoil pretty much admits this in their internal dealer documentation, stating that (this is a paraphrase) this oil is designed to get customer's off of the 3k interval changes, and building customer confidence in their synthetic products, and even encourage dealers to offer oil analysis to prove that going 6 months/7500 miles between changes is perfectly safe. Their literature also suggests no tangible difference between this oil and their normal synthetic oil guaranteed for one year/25k miles, and that this oil is designed to make their dealers extra money by convincing customers to change their oil twice a year instead of just once a year, thus doubling the money spent by the customer in a one year period. The XL-7500 needs that certification in order to get in the "mainstream" of the oil change business.......oh and to make those customers feel better. The regular Amsoil is for those of us who know better and don't need a sticker to drive our vehicles around with confidence.
11-27-2001, 08:48 AM
#28
Dude. For the Zinc, the data shows almost none. So let's settle that one okay?
phosporus. keep searching and let us know.
If you don't know the main reason Amsoil made thier xl series by now, forget it. They may have reduced the phosporus content but the main reason is to market a oil w/ a short drain interval. If you think the main reason they reduced they phosporus content just to get the api rating, you are crazy. Why go to all the trouble just for one class of product and have that product underperform their other lines? What?
"""On your link it says "data not available" and there's no phosphorus rating. Apparently the two go together. From what I understand those two compounds are what gives Amsoil their exceptional lubrication properties. Most synthetics have it - Amsoil just uses more. The word is (and I'm trying to confirm this) is that excessive amounts of those compounds could be detrimental to catalytic converters (over an extended period of time). That is why API doesn't allow those high levels. I think they reversed engineered their 7500 series (lowered the levels of phosphorus/zinc) to enable it to pass the API. Thus, they don't recommend the 7500 for extended drain because it doesn't have those exceptional lubrication properties."""
phosporus. keep searching and let us know.
If you don't know the main reason Amsoil made thier xl series by now, forget it. They may have reduced the phosporus content but the main reason is to market a oil w/ a short drain interval. If you think the main reason they reduced they phosporus content just to get the api rating, you are crazy. Why go to all the trouble just for one class of product and have that product underperform their other lines? What?
"""On your link it says "data not available" and there's no phosphorus rating. Apparently the two go together. From what I understand those two compounds are what gives Amsoil their exceptional lubrication properties. Most synthetics have it - Amsoil just uses more. The word is (and I'm trying to confirm this) is that excessive amounts of those compounds could be detrimental to catalytic converters (over an extended period of time). That is why API doesn't allow those high levels. I think they reversed engineered their 7500 series (lowered the levels of phosphorus/zinc) to enable it to pass the API. Thus, they don't recommend the 7500 for extended drain because it doesn't have those exceptional lubrication properties."""
11-27-2001, 03:44 PM
#29
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Originally posted by Jeff92se
Dude. For the Zinc, the data shows almost none. So let's settle that one okay?
Dude. For the Zinc, the data shows almost none. So let's settle that one okay?
"Empty cells indicate the data was not avaliable" = almost none?
If you say so.
If you don't know the main reason Amsoil made thier xl series by now, forget it. They may have reduced the phosporus content but the main reason is to market a oil w/ a short drain interval. If you think the main reason they reduced they phosporus content just to get the api rating, you are crazy. Why go to all the trouble just for one class of product and have that product underperform their other lines? What?
I guess it all goes back to the cost of the API rating. I'm going by your former premise that the API rating is "expensive" to obtain. Logic says that the API rating would be desirable.
As a matter of fact Amsoil states that their non-API oils meet or exceed the API certification. It is that important to them that they actually state it in their advertising. The problem is they haven't actually obtained the certification so their claims are FALSE. This is FALSE ADVERTISING.
First scenario. If the XL series is their high volume oil then I suppose that justifies Amsoil paying for the certification. That also explains Amsoil not paying for certification for their low volume oils. Remember we're going on the "certification is expensive" premise. In this case it's a cost vs. return issue.
But I sure wish somebody could prove certification is expensive. I still think it would be worth it (but that's just my opinion).
I see even their low volume oils on the shelf down the street from me - it seems to me that low volume in this case isn't THAT low. I still believe it's in their best interest to have all their oils API certified. Four hundred other suppliers do it. Can anybody here NAME four hundred oil suppliers? The names that usually come up in conversation when talking synthetics are Amsoil, Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline and a few others. Amsoil maybe be smaller than those other companies but they're by no means small potatoes. Nope, I just don't buy the cost thing.
Here's the other scenario. Let's assume certification isn't too expensive or it's free. They just get it as a matter of fact for their XL line. Fine. What about their other oils? Why no API? Because they DON'T QUALIFY. Whether or not they took the test or API just gives it them - their other oils don't make the cut. Case closed.
No, no applause please!
On another note, Mobil 1 is $4.10 per quart at the local Wal-Mart. Amsoil XL-7500 is $5.20 per quart at their website. If I'm not concerned about extended drain, or the extended wear properties why do I choose Amsoil? BMW and Mercedes are now recommending 10k to 15k mile intervals for oil changes in their cars using Mobil 1. You stated that the XL-7500 is a "short drain interval" oil - how short?
11-27-2001, 04:06 PM
#30
Zinc. Sorry you are right.
"""I understand that they make their XL series for the masses and therefore it's less expensive. I also understand that it's not intented for extended drain. If it passed the API certification then it must not have the higher levels of phosphorus and zinc that their extended drain oils do. Is my logic correct? Is this what makes that oil less expensive?"""
Donno. But it is less expensive so...
""I guess it all goes back to the cost of the API rating. I'm going by your former premise that the API rating is "expensive" to obtain. Logic says that the API rating would be desirable.""
Logic also says IF it is expensive, if you don't have the sales volume to jusify, you don't do it. Why isn't every aftermarket part CARB certified??? Becuase it's expensive as hell.
""As a matter of fact Amsoil states that their non-API oils meet or exceed the API certification. It is that important to them that they actually state it in their advertising. The problem is they haven't actually obtained the certification so their claims are FALSE. This is FALSE ADVERTISING."""
Nope you are dead wrong. Their site states that they oil MEET OR EXCEED api certification. Does that mean they have put forth the $$ to get it certified?? Of course not. Is it possible that an oil can meet all the test requirements and not be certified?? YES IT CAN. These claims have been on their site for years. Why no lawsuit? Maybe becuase what they claim is true?
"""First scenario. If the XL series is their high volume oil then I suppose that justifies Amsoil paying for the certification. That also explains Amsoil not paying for certification for their low volume oils. Remember we're going on the "certification is expensive" premise. In this case it's a cost vs. return issue."""
Uh.. gee after the 10th time, you finally realize that?
"""But I sure wish somebody could prove certification is expensive. I still think it would be worth it (but that's just my opinion)."""
Call api and find out? Or email amsoil and find out.
""""I see even their low volume oils on the shelf down the street from me - it seems to me that low volume in this case isn't THAT low. I still believe it's in their best interest to have all their oils API certified. Four hundred other suppliers do it. Can anybody here NAME four hundred oil suppliers? The names that usually come up in conversation when talking synthetics are Amsoil, Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline and a few others. Amsoil maybe be smaller than those other companies but they're by no means small potatoes. Nope, I just don't buy the cost thing."""
Good don't. I don't really car.
"""Here's the other scenario. Let's assume certification isn't too expensive or it's free. They just get it as a matter of fact for their XL line. Fine. What about their other oils? Why no API? Because they DON'T QUALIFY. Whether or not they took the test or API just gives it them - their other oils don't make the cut. Case closed.""
Don't make what cut? The test is not free so this doesn't count.
""No, no applause please!""
For what? For stating what Amsoil already states on their website already?? *golf clap*
""On another note, Mobil 1 is $4.10 per quart at the local Wal-Mart. Amsoil XL-7500 is $5.20 per quart at their website. If I'm not concerned about extended drain, or the extended wear properties why do I choose Amsoil? BMW and Mercedes are now recommending 10k to 15k mile intervals for oil changes in their cars using Mobil 1. You stated that the XL-7500 is a "short drain interval" oil - how short?"""
Why chose Amsoil? Look at the data and decide. It matches or outperforms the other oils. How does Mobil compare to Amsoil in the data arena?? Chose what you want. sheesh.
How short? Read the site. How short does Mobil 1 even claim?
If Amsoil is soo bad and is guilty of false claims, then I think you could make alot of $$ by suing them for millions. Why not and why hasn't Amsoil been sued out of business decades ago?
Tell you what, "Amsoil sucks", Wal-Mart brand is the freak-diddy best because it's API certified okay?
"""I understand that they make their XL series for the masses and therefore it's less expensive. I also understand that it's not intented for extended drain. If it passed the API certification then it must not have the higher levels of phosphorus and zinc that their extended drain oils do. Is my logic correct? Is this what makes that oil less expensive?"""
Donno. But it is less expensive so...
""I guess it all goes back to the cost of the API rating. I'm going by your former premise that the API rating is "expensive" to obtain. Logic says that the API rating would be desirable.""
Logic also says IF it is expensive, if you don't have the sales volume to jusify, you don't do it. Why isn't every aftermarket part CARB certified??? Becuase it's expensive as hell.
""As a matter of fact Amsoil states that their non-API oils meet or exceed the API certification. It is that important to them that they actually state it in their advertising. The problem is they haven't actually obtained the certification so their claims are FALSE. This is FALSE ADVERTISING."""
Nope you are dead wrong. Their site states that they oil MEET OR EXCEED api certification. Does that mean they have put forth the $$ to get it certified?? Of course not. Is it possible that an oil can meet all the test requirements and not be certified?? YES IT CAN. These claims have been on their site for years. Why no lawsuit? Maybe becuase what they claim is true?
"""First scenario. If the XL series is their high volume oil then I suppose that justifies Amsoil paying for the certification. That also explains Amsoil not paying for certification for their low volume oils. Remember we're going on the "certification is expensive" premise. In this case it's a cost vs. return issue."""
Uh.. gee after the 10th time, you finally realize that?
"""But I sure wish somebody could prove certification is expensive. I still think it would be worth it (but that's just my opinion)."""
Call api and find out? Or email amsoil and find out.
""""I see even their low volume oils on the shelf down the street from me - it seems to me that low volume in this case isn't THAT low. I still believe it's in their best interest to have all their oils API certified. Four hundred other suppliers do it. Can anybody here NAME four hundred oil suppliers? The names that usually come up in conversation when talking synthetics are Amsoil, Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline and a few others. Amsoil maybe be smaller than those other companies but they're by no means small potatoes. Nope, I just don't buy the cost thing."""
Good don't. I don't really car.
"""Here's the other scenario. Let's assume certification isn't too expensive or it's free. They just get it as a matter of fact for their XL line. Fine. What about their other oils? Why no API? Because they DON'T QUALIFY. Whether or not they took the test or API just gives it them - their other oils don't make the cut. Case closed.""
Don't make what cut? The test is not free so this doesn't count.
""No, no applause please!""
For what? For stating what Amsoil already states on their website already?? *golf clap*
""On another note, Mobil 1 is $4.10 per quart at the local Wal-Mart. Amsoil XL-7500 is $5.20 per quart at their website. If I'm not concerned about extended drain, or the extended wear properties why do I choose Amsoil? BMW and Mercedes are now recommending 10k to 15k mile intervals for oil changes in their cars using Mobil 1. You stated that the XL-7500 is a "short drain interval" oil - how short?"""
Why chose Amsoil? Look at the data and decide. It matches or outperforms the other oils. How does Mobil compare to Amsoil in the data arena?? Chose what you want. sheesh.
How short? Read the site. How short does Mobil 1 even claim?
If Amsoil is soo bad and is guilty of false claims, then I think you could make alot of $$ by suing them for millions. Why not and why hasn't Amsoil been sued out of business decades ago?
Tell you what, "Amsoil sucks", Wal-Mart brand is the freak-diddy best because it's API certified okay?
11-27-2001, 05:07 PM
#31
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Sheesh!
I'll let my other arguements stand.
But:
"Nope you are dead wrong. Their site states that they oil MEET OR EXCEED api certification. Does that mean they have put forth the $$ to get it certified?? Of course not. Is it possible that an oil can meet all the test requirements and not be certified?? YES IT CAN. These claims have been on their site for years. Why no lawsuit? Maybe becuase what they claim is true?"
Don't you think that's a little deceiving? Seems like they're getting off on a technicality. Lawsuits have been won and lost on a technicality.
And if people were having catalytic converter failures do you think they would equate it with their motor oil? API says those compounds kill catalytic converters - they have to had it happen before. If somebody starts putting the two together Amsoil could be in trouble.
and:
"Tell you what, "Amsoil sucks", Wal-Mart brand is the freak-diddy best because it's API certified okay?"
Maybe not Wal-Mart, but probably Mobil One if my car's still under warranty.
I'll let my other arguements stand.
But:
"Nope you are dead wrong. Their site states that they oil MEET OR EXCEED api certification. Does that mean they have put forth the $$ to get it certified?? Of course not. Is it possible that an oil can meet all the test requirements and not be certified?? YES IT CAN. These claims have been on their site for years. Why no lawsuit? Maybe becuase what they claim is true?"
Don't you think that's a little deceiving? Seems like they're getting off on a technicality. Lawsuits have been won and lost on a technicality.
And if people were having catalytic converter failures do you think they would equate it with their motor oil? API says those compounds kill catalytic converters - they have to had it happen before. If somebody starts putting the two together Amsoil could be in trouble.
and:
"Tell you what, "Amsoil sucks", Wal-Mart brand is the freak-diddy best because it's API certified okay?"
Maybe not Wal-Mart, but probably Mobil One if my car's still under warranty.
11-27-2001, 05:20 PM
#32
""Don't you think that's a little deceiving? Seems like they're getting off on a technicality. Lawsuits have been won and lost on a technicality."""
No not at all. If your product meet the standards, how exactly would you market it? You would state that it meets the standard right? Would you state that it did NOT have the starburst? I wouldn't. It's claiming exactly what it does.
""And if people were having catalytic converter failures do you think they would equate it with their motor oil? API says those compounds kill catalytic converters - they have to had it happen before. If somebody starts putting the two together Amsoil could be in trouble.""
Are they? I have not once heard/seen anything like that. People have had plenty of time to drill me on that if it were true. So far nothing. If it ruined cats, then how do you explain my very low emissions tests? Why must have it happened before? If there is a link, let's see it.
IF ANY MAKER CLAIMS SOMETHING THAT THEIR PRODUCT DOESN'T DO, they would be in trouble. But again, Amsoil, been in business since 1972, been through more severe doubters than even you and they are still around.
If you find a link, I will read it. Until then..round and round we go.
I can't really doubt you until I get some API mention from an Amsoil website. I do remember reading something but there are millions of Amsoil sites.
And you can't say anything until you find a link that clearly says Amsoil failed the API tests or Amsoil oil ruins cats.
Simple as that really,.
No not at all. If your product meet the standards, how exactly would you market it? You would state that it meets the standard right? Would you state that it did NOT have the starburst? I wouldn't. It's claiming exactly what it does.
""And if people were having catalytic converter failures do you think they would equate it with their motor oil? API says those compounds kill catalytic converters - they have to had it happen before. If somebody starts putting the two together Amsoil could be in trouble.""
Are they? I have not once heard/seen anything like that. People have had plenty of time to drill me on that if it were true. So far nothing. If it ruined cats, then how do you explain my very low emissions tests? Why must have it happened before? If there is a link, let's see it.
IF ANY MAKER CLAIMS SOMETHING THAT THEIR PRODUCT DOESN'T DO, they would be in trouble. But again, Amsoil, been in business since 1972, been through more severe doubters than even you and they are still around.
If you find a link, I will read it. Until then..round and round we go.
I can't really doubt you until I get some API mention from an Amsoil website. I do remember reading something but there are millions of Amsoil sites.
And you can't say anything until you find a link that clearly says Amsoil failed the API tests or Amsoil oil ruins cats.
Simple as that really,.
11-27-2001, 06:54 PM
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Alrighty then,
http://api-ep.api.org/quality/index....01005006000000
It took me a while but I found it. Along with a whole ton of other useful information.
I beleive its on page 2 of 7 in formc.pdf.
"6. Licensee agrees to pay to API an annual minimum royalty fee [six hundred and twenty-five dollars ($625) for API members; eight hundred and twenty-five dollars ($825) for non-members] plus one and one quarter-thousandth of one dollar ($.00125) per gallon of licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of production."
All the application forms are there, everything.
Gee, do you think they could swing that?
So, what it comes down to is this. It would be STUPID not to get your oil certified if it can pass the test.
FACT: With the exception of the XL-7500, Amsoil's synthetic oil cannot pass the API certification test.
I'm still working on the zinc/phosphorus connection. Too many people have posted all over the internet and usenet that this is the reason. I'm going to find out where it came from.
http://api-ep.api.org/quality/index....01005006000000
It took me a while but I found it. Along with a whole ton of other useful information.
I beleive its on page 2 of 7 in formc.pdf.
"6. Licensee agrees to pay to API an annual minimum royalty fee [six hundred and twenty-five dollars ($625) for API members; eight hundred and twenty-five dollars ($825) for non-members] plus one and one quarter-thousandth of one dollar ($.00125) per gallon of licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of production."
All the application forms are there, everything.
Gee, do you think they could swing that?
So, what it comes down to is this. It would be STUPID not to get your oil certified if it can pass the test.
FACT: With the exception of the XL-7500, Amsoil's synthetic oil cannot pass the API certification test.
I'm still working on the zinc/phosphorus connection. Too many people have posted all over the internet and usenet that this is the reason. I'm going to find out where it came from.
11-27-2001, 08:23 PM
#34
Originally posted by CFster
"6. Licensee agrees to pay to API an annual minimum royalty fee [six hundred and twenty-five dollars ($625) for API members; eight hundred and twenty-five dollars ($825) for non-members] plus one and one quarter-thousandth of one dollar ($.00125) per gallon of licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of production."
All the application forms are there, everything.
Gee, do you think they could swing that?
"6. Licensee agrees to pay to API an annual minimum royalty fee [six hundred and twenty-five dollars ($625) for API members; eight hundred and twenty-five dollars ($825) for non-members] plus one and one quarter-thousandth of one dollar ($.00125) per gallon of licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of production."
All the application forms are there, everything.
Gee, do you think they could swing that?
Well, having some business sense, I say no because of their low sales volumes. I don't recall Amsoil having the shelf space Mobile 1, et al. oil brands have for their products at my local Auto Zone. That is Amsoil's choice, though.
So, what it comes down to is this. It would be STUPID not to get your oil certified if it can pass the test.
That's your opinion, which really doesn't matter since you don't own or operate Amsoil's sales or marketing departments. I'm confused as to why this matters to you at all. I would also like to know when exactly I can expect my catalytic converter to blow so that I can save up for my y-pipe and new cat.
FACT: With the exception of the XL-7500, Amsoil's synthetic oil cannot pass the API certification test.
Most people who understand the difference between fact and opinion need a link and actual conclusive lab evidence in order to back up your claim as fact.
I'm still working on the zinc/phosphorus connection. Too many people have posted all over the internet and usenet that this is the reason. I'm going to find out where it came from.
I believe that would be better than Jeff and I fighting off your every attempt to give Amsoil a bad name/reputation for your perception of their products and your OPINION on how they should be marketed.
11-28-2001, 03:09 PM
#36
Let's review.
1) Amsoil only has one API certified oil, the XL series. Ok.
2) Amsoil does not have api cerification for their other oils. It's never stated that they do. It's clearly stated on their website.
3) Amsoil states that their other oil meets or exceeds the api certification. It's been on their site for many, many years. Can they say that and still not have the actual certificate? If you think they can't, sue them for millions and quit your job.
Okay. here is a link that states that Amsoil has MORE zinc and Phosphurs than other oils:
http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/faq2.htm
But again, the oil that they list in the test is clearly stated to meet api standards.
Okay round and round we still go.
My logic states we are no futher then we were from the very first post.
1) Amsoil only has one API certified oil, the XL series. Ok.
2) Amsoil does not have api cerification for their other oils. It's never stated that they do. It's clearly stated on their website.
3) Amsoil states that their other oil meets or exceeds the api certification. It's been on their site for many, many years. Can they say that and still not have the actual certificate? If you think they can't, sue them for millions and quit your job.
Okay. here is a link that states that Amsoil has MORE zinc and Phosphurs than other oils:
http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/faq2.htm
But again, the oil that they list in the test is clearly stated to meet api standards.
Okay round and round we still go.
My logic states we are no futher then we were from the very first post.
11-29-2001, 05:30 AM
#37
Originally posted by CFster
Bitter to the end.
Bitter to the end.
My logic and the evidence I provided proves what I stated as fact.
I hope you won't purchase any Amsoil products.
