I would hope that it matters to most people, unfortunately, it does not seem to matter. Basically, the USA is losing A LOT of jobs to American companies that close down American factories to open factories in Asia. Kobalt, Husky, and the other store brands are BIG on this.

For me, I will only buy American, when there is a choice. Sometimes there is no choice anymore.

To answer your question without politics, I would say USA tools are best..but the foreign made stuff is a good value when you don't have much money to spend and you need to get a job done. I have some foreign tools and they work pretty darn good. So, since they seem "good enough" I make my buying decision based on politics!

 

the difference in quality is no contest. craftsman is a decent tool there made for do it your selfers or the average handyman. snap on is for professionalls that use there tools everyday. snap on cold forges there tools and uses a much higher grade stainless steel. this is why they are able to make there tools much lighter yet stronger. there socket walls are much thinner allowing you to get into tighter places while still having higher strength then any er company. there sockets are also designed to grip the nut or bolt by the sides not the corners like craftsman. i have broken so many craftsman sockets wrenches ratchets etc. snap on also uses a 10 degree click ratchet compared to the 30 on craftman. there are countless reasons why snap on is better but i don't feel like typing it all.

 

as far as basic hand tools go, if your not a mechanic and only use them "recreationally" cheap ones are fine. i fix cars for a living so i am always buying new specialty tools and i think mac/snap-on and other major toll suppliers have nicer tools. i just spent over 400 dollars on 9 rachet-wrenches jfrom snap on, just to give you a rough idea of what it cost mechanics to service your car so we can have a paycheck each week. and yes it does make a difference, i can use them for getting into tighter places where a regulay hand rachet or my air rachets wont fit. so i can get peoples cars out the door faster.

 

like sweed88 said even a 20 degree difference in tooth angle makes all the difference when your in a tight space (removing belt driven acceories)

 

snap On

 

matco, snap-on, SK is mostly what you'll find in my tool chest

i just bought this limited-edition tool chest for my dad for his birthday, damn thing cost $700, and same thing for him, thats the only brands you'll find in there

 

I've used tools from dura-last, kobalt, husky, sk, and also used ones such as matco, mac, and snapon. when it comes down to it, u get what you pay for. when people want someone to work on their car, they choose a professional, and professionals use professional grade tools. Sure snap on, Mac, and Matco might be a little more expensive, ok, but what happens when the craftsman breaks. they give you another piece of junk to break again. IF the snap on, mac, or matco breaks, they will give you a new high quality tool. some people swear by craftsman tools and some people swear that they are junk. when it comes down to it, you decide what you are going to buy in the end, but if you don't like to skimp when it comes to quality, you choose the same as the professionals.

 

EH, I've been working on cars for only 2 years so that probably doesnt help the situation but I've never broken any craftsman tools. And I've done a little bit of everything from Axles, clutch, brakes, ALL suspension and steering and what not...

The only craftman stuff I've warrantied is some really old looking broken craftman tools I find at work that customers toss on the ground. All I do is pick those antique tools up and go warranty them for some new ones Yes I work at a junk yard.

 

Craftsmen stuff is decent. Not as good as Matco or Snap-On, but definitely better than the Kobalt, Husky, Workforce, Harbor freight, etc Chinese made tools.

After all I have done to my car, the swap, all of the maintenance..all of my Chinese made tools eventually broke at some point. Only my Harbor Freight impact sockets survived the last year of work.
All of my Craftsmen stuff survived too, no probs at all. I wish I could buy some Snap-On or Matco, but I don't get a chance to visit the tool trucks anymore

 

Were these craftsman impact sockets you cracked? I just try to buy everything impact these days...even if I'm just using them with a hand ratchet.

I haven't tried craftsman but I'm sure their impact stuff would be durable no?

 

That's a good idea. 6pt impact sockets are tough, pretty much any brand you get will be tough.

Whoever was breaking Craftsmen sockets, I'd wonder what the conditions were that they failed under. I had a 1/2">3/8" reducer on a craftsmen 14mm socket with a Workforce breaker bar and a pipe as extra leverage...well the 1/2" Workforce breaker bar failed, but the Craftsmen socket seems no worse for the wear, and I was abusing it!

 

True, but another factor is - people may in fact be using the wrong tool for the job. For example trying to break a stubborn nut with a ratchet could break the ratchet...not the right tool. Using a 1/2" Drive flex bar to break loose a big nut. 3/4" Flex Bar would probably be the necessary size, and 3/4" drive sockets too...6 pt.

 

the IT guy here at work is also a CMAT with 25 years of experience in automotive diagnosis and repair. He's used every brand of tool out there, and said that even after one of his other mechanics would strip a bolt with their craftsman socket, he could go over there with a snap-on socket and it would still come off. and he showed me a 16mm (not very often used) Craftsman socket that was pretty used-up looking on the inside but still looked pretty new on the outside... vs his 30-year-old 14mm Snap-On socket and it was in pristine shape. and you all know how much you reach for that 14mm on your japanese car..

i've never used them personally... but he's been using both for 25 years and will use Snap-On any time he can get his hands on it. Even some of my Craftsman tools are in pretty sad shape too tho... esp my 1/2" drive 17mm 12pt... 120 lb/ft on strut bolts is pretty hellish i guess. and i've broken three half-drive ratchets, and a 1/4" drive, and my 3/8" isn't in great shape either (sometimes won't lock)

 

My Metrinch tool set hasn't failed on me yet.

 

I don't know if craftsman does that, but my MAC guy did that to me on the last ratchet I got fixed. I don't mind though, it works flawlessly now, I just had to put in a little effort

I totally agree. Anything I buy is not for temporary use. I'll keep it the rest of my life. I agree that Snap-On and matco are great tools, and I do own some of them. I don't wrench professionally anymore, I'm a lowly parts manager now,but about 40% of my box is Craftsman. Most of my sockets and open end wrenches. I also have a set of S&K open ends, which I do like better. I own more MAC than craftsman, mainly because my grandmother worked at one of their plants. And it's definately better quality. However, I don't know what you guys are doing to break EVERY craftsman tool you own, the sockets I do have, have held up just fine. Many of them I have from when I was started working on cars when I was 15! I should also point out that my shop was a 4x4 shop and I worked on much bigger stuff ussually than my Max, I almost never broke a tool. Of any brand. It's all about using the proper one.

That I find hard to believe. I have a good friend that is a Ford ASE master tech and uses craftsman. His box is 80% snap on, but there's craftsman right along side it. The guy beside him in the garage even has a Craftsman box. I would consider them worth their weight. (not to mention one of my boxes is craftsman, the other an international,,,but like I said, not a wrencher any more so maybe I don't count?

And I do think ANY quality tool is a great investment. And I do consider craftsman to be a quality brand. Not the best, mind you, but fine by me. Just realize their limitations. If you put an 8 foot pipe on even a 1/2" ratchet,,,no matter what brand,,,it's gonna break. if not,,,maybe you're just wimpy

 

Maybe the people claiming to be breaking Craftsmen tools are in fact breaking the "Champion" brand of Chinese junk Sears has been selling.

I was at Sears the other day, I noticed something very worrisome: they have begun selling even CHEAPER tools, just like HD, Lowes and the car parts places, Sears now sells those mega Chinese junk tool sets, you know, the ones with like 100-200 pieces for $50

Sears will sell out too. They will slowly "learn" that Americans care about quantity, not quality.

 

unfortunately it all depends on when the tools were made(for craftsman). for ex. my dad has craftsman tools from his dad that are still good. but all the craftsman tools Ive bought in the last 10yrs have been crap and needed replacing soon after buying.
currently craftsman is a lowest bidder manufacturer, meaning that whoever says they can make the tools the cheapest craftsman goes for. the lifetime warrantee on most inexpensive tools & parts are made possible by the fact that the manufacturer makes them so cheap that it doesn't matter if they have to give you a new one every month because they cost next to nothing to make. for example napa parts almost never have a lifetime warrantee but the parts are consistently higher quality than AZ or pep boys.
the occasional snap on tool may break but its usually due to an error on manufacturing that was missed. the replacement almost never ever fails. but with craftsman you can go through 20 and break them all.
most of my craftsman tools have given out under extremely modest pressure. using impact sockets instead of regular for normal stuff is ridiculous, unnecessary and not even possible in tight spaces due to the thick sidewall on the sockets. impact sockets should only have to be used in an application with an impact gun (due to the repeated impacts they sustain).
I dont even know why we are comparing craftsman with snap-on they are not even in the same category. craftsman is barely better than one use tools like great neck.
I worked in a shop for a year with 5 other mechanics and none of them had craftsman tools that were made in the last 10yrs because of their inconsistent performance.
on a side note SK is far better than craftsman and still modestly priced.

 

I used to be an ASE technician. Also was Goodwrench Certified at one time. When I moved into the professional trade, I migrated to all Snap-On tools. I had a small roll around that was worth several thousands of dollars. If it were Craftsmen, a similar rig would have been less than $1000, probably more like $700. When you get paid paid flat rate, $19.81 per hour (1996 dollars) and you can pull 16 flat rate hours in 7 hours of actual work, you can afford to buy the best, and the differences between Snap-On, Matco, Cornwell, SK, and Craftsmen become apparent and the cost differences become understandable.
When I left the automotive field, it no longer made sense to keep such valuable tools around, and I sold them for nearly what I paid for them. I then replaced them with Craftsmen tools (USA made). They work very well for the level of work I do nowadays.

I would gladly buy modern, American made Craftsmen tools despite the assumed quality problems some people claim. Heck, I have 2008 Craftsmens, and they work well. HOWEVER, I am thoroughly disappointed in how modern consumers care nothing at all about buying American. Even if Craftsmen was as bad as Chinese stuff, I'd WAY rather send my money to keeping Americans employed. Besides, the fact is these places like Lowe's, Home Depot, Autozone, etc, don't really sell their Chinese tools much cheaper than Craftsmen. In fact, I think many Husky and Kobalt items are more expensive than the American made Craftsmen. By buying from these companies, you support American businessmen who take full advantage of the lax trade laws of this country, don't mind firing off American workers, and in the end support a Communist country whose military is dead set against being able to defeat the US.

 

I don't really see it as selling out though - what you'll find is in this new economy those el cheapo 200 piece sets are all people can afford now. And it's the only way Sears can stay in business.

Professionals aren't likely to shop at sears anyways - so I think these sets are a good idea for the homeowner, who most of them don't care about tools. Tools are the last thing on peoples minds these days. No everyday person wants to shop individually for every single tool (like me).

That said the tools are cheap low quality - the make here in Canada is called JOBMATE and they are a huge success now. Believe it or not I was stuck when working on the MAX, and I actually had to use some of those tools from someone elses set, and they actually worked.

Like most things - stuff is going to get cheaper and cheaper quality wise...but most people don't care about quality anymore...just need to make it to the next day.

Soon aren't we going to have access to made in china cars too?...at least i've heard on CNBC.

 

just because it's going to happen, and just because consumers accept it, doesn't mean it's OK.

 

RE: China Made

Let's take Engine hoist for example. In Canada we have access to a US brand called Torin...their stuff is made in China. They basically stick their label on it...are situated in California (conveniently near China shipping route). OR we could buy Canbuilt (Canadian Made) or OTC (US Made). The later 2 are insanely more in price. For me, I can only afford the US/China one. Torin Engine Hoist for $168.00 & includes Load Leveller? That price is fair in my opinion. Is the OTC1819 hoist better - probably. BUT, for working on a V6 is it THAT much better warranting $5,028.37? The Canbuilt 4200 one goes for $1,120.75.

If it weren't for China - I wouldn't be able to even remove my engine.

For sockets though, I wouldn't touch the China stuff i've seen so far.

By the way China is not a communist country - it is a Capitalist system.

 

OTC 2002 is around $600 US dollars, and is more comparable to the Torin model you talked about. You're comparing the top of the line OTC hoist to the Torin, which is in no way compareable other than the fact that it lifts stuff (I know because I own a Torin ;-))

 

RE: The Torin you own

Do you think it's a bad idea to try and leave the engine hanging for some long period of time (days) to work on it? Will it damage the crane?

I want to avoid separating the tranny from the engine - and if I did that, I wouldn't be able to mount it on an engine stand right?

 

It wont hurt a torin or any other engine quality engine hoist to let it hang, I've had engines hanging on my torin for up to a week at a time with no issues.

 

separating engine from trans is the way to go if you're putting the engine on a stand, actually. you bolt the block onto the stands using the engine-trans bolt holes.




o and wrt what the other guy said... he's right about using craftsman unless you use tools constantly and can justify the price of snapon. I am looking to get into automotive repair, so if i plan to do that for several years then snap on would be a good idea for me but right now i'm OK to just use craftsman stuff.

 

Thanks guys. My only concern about separating them, is the confusing part of the FSM on page AT-184 "REMOVAL & INSTALLATION" If I separate the torque converter housing - is some stuff going to go out of alignment or move out of place.

They talk about "When connecting torque converter to transaxle, measure distance A to be certain they are correctly assembled" 18mm - and I can't figure out if this applies to me if just separating the housing or not, or the drive plate potentially moving out of original position because of me separating.

 

Funny, last time I checked China was still officially "Communist". However, it is true that they prefer:"Capitalism with Communist virtues"

Anyways, suit yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUj8leZxmK8

 

Typically you don't need to pull the housing from the transaxle. If you pull the entire transaxle from the engine (this includes the "housing" that is typically left attached to the entire transaxle) you only need to removed a few torque converter to flywheel bolts. You'll pull the transaxle with the tq conv still attached. Be careful not to let the TQ conv slip off of the transaxle, as it will spill several quarts of ATF all over and possibly damage something. Basically, don't tip that side of the transaxle down, and use duct tape or wire to keep the TQ conv from falling out as you remove the transaxle from the engine.

 

I've used Snap On and Craftsman both never had problems with either. Some of the Snap On stuff just feels more comfortable to use in some areas. And with replacements (if I ever need it) I have my Snap On guy on speed dial, he lives 10 minutes away, guess I'm just lucky.

 

Thanks bud for this tip. If I simply unbolt the tranny from the engine as a whole unit, not touching those bolts on the torque converter / drive plate, and trying to mount the engine on a stand while leaving the tranny on a tranny jack or something, are you saying the TQ can still slip around depending on the angle?

 

You need to remove the TQ conv to flywheel bolts, so that you can remove the entire trans WITH the TQ converter still inside the trans bellhousing. I meant you'll need to be careful, because the TQ conv can slip out of the trans (nothing holding it in place) and cause a big mess/damage. Generally just being careful to not tip the "engine" side of the trans downward is enough to guarantee the TQ conv won't fall out. If you are uncertain, or want to move the trans around the work area with the TQ conv still installed, then use some duct tape or something to prevent it from falling out. When the TQ conv is finally removed, be prepared to deal with a lot of ATF spilling out. The TQ conv holds several quarts of ATF and just the act of removing the TQ conv from the trans is enough for a quart or two to spill out.

 

I wouldn't leave pressure on any hydraulic cylinder for a long period of time. Not that it will damage the crane, but it will wear the seals in the cylinder faster. I don't feel like being there if the seal failed either. The only one I had fail on me was on a friends hoist, and just hissed and made a very slow controlled decent to the floor, but I'd still not want to be near it if 400+lbs of engine or whatever just free fell to the ground. is it worth the 5 minutes it takes to throw an old tire under it and set it down on the ground?

 

Honestly, ill throw my 2 cents in again.

I have had a set of 1/2 shallow craftsman sockets, ive used the 21mm probably well over 200 times removing and tightening wheels. Generally i only use it to remove as i have my 21mm torque stick for putting wheels back on, but sometimes i dont use the torque stick. The craftsman socket has finally cracked on me, and thank god i noticed it before it blew up and threw bits of metal into my face. In my opinion, i am quite surprised it lasted this long, would i buy it again? Probably not, i can afford better, my friend has been using the same snap on 21MM chrome (not impact) socket for removing wheels and putting them back on since he got into the trade 9 years ago. He has not cracked or broken it. We basically have the same gun too (Ingersoll Rand 2135).

I think you guys who are breaking sockets by hand are either grotestly huge or have crappy ones. Both our guns put out 1000+ftlbs (1100max). I finally broke mine after using it every day pretty much all day for coming up 2 years.

If you ask any technician, along with myself being one, old craftsman is snap on quality. The new craftsman is all made in china, and its not the same. Thanks to my dad i have access to a lot of the old 80's and early 90's era craftsman tools, and comparing them to my snap on/mac tools, id say they are definately on par. No comparison to the new craftsman.

For those of you who are looking for a set of GOOD quality sockets that wont break the bank, check out SK hand tools. Ive been using there sockets and so have a few of the techs at my work they all love them and they are very reasonably priced compared to Snap on/Mac.

Most people will agree that the order goes Snap on/Mac/SK/Matco/Old craftsman then everything else. On certain things, i perfer Mac, but a lot of things Snap on is the best and there IS a reason why, tools made in the USA ARE better, i dont care what anyone says, ive used Mac sockets that are made in china, and ive used the same socket made in USA. Trust me there is a difference, even so much as chrome flaking, sockets starting to strip. You have to be careful with MAC, they are out sourcing some of there tools to china, if your not careful you'll get suckered into paying Snap on/Mac USA pricing for something on par with craftsman which both are made in china.

 

Snap On is good but I wouldn't say it's 'the best'. For automotive though, it certainly has the best marketing and branding....and the service with their vendor trucks etc... a solid product, plus specialty tools for the automotive technician that may be an exclusive product very difficult to find. There are other brands though that meet or exceed much of the Snap-On line.

 

then name them.

 

Daver - there are many regional suppliers in different countries who all produce industrial grade hand tools...I wouldn't know them all, there are too many - but in Canada, we have companies like Gray Tools (been well respected for years) or Jet (a newer company I think - don't know much about them), even Westward.

A Litte Tool History
In the US you have access to Proto for great prices (probably better pricing than snap-on). Proto is big in Canada too, well respected for many years. Formerly the Plomb company...then owned by Ingersoll Rand for years, then after the oil crash in the 70's Stanely finally bought them.

I know you mentioned you want to build an inventory for professional use - I highly recommend you try their stuff....extremely rugged. Buy all impact, buy the black oxide indistrial finish 'classic pear'...or buy one of the newer designs..I like the black oxide finish the best. Being you live in the US you get a price improvement. Go to their website and browse their main PDF catalog, not their website catalog. Buy their stuff NOW to beat inflation. If you want a leg up (trade secret) on the other mechanics for years to come, here's your chance.

I've used a Proto ratchet from the 70's era, and it still feels just as good as one I bought this year. They aren't known very much in the automotive repair service world...but if you are wondering what they use to actually assemble the cars in the first place on the production line, it's most likely Proto. They are huge in the Oil & Gas, Mining, Industrial world...I don't like to make huge generalizations, but they are considered 'the industrial standard'. As mentioned earlier, other regional suppliers outside of the US compete head to head with Proto these days....due to their high input cost outside of the US.

 

I tend to agree with the overall sentiment so far. I got my first set of Craftsmen tools in 1985 and have used the majority of them without issue to this day. The main exceptions would be their ratchets. I have had to replace 3 of the 3/8 drive and 4 of the 1/4 drive pieces, as well as a handful of the smaller sockets and allen head pieces. I eventually purchased an 3/8 SK swivel head ratchet (in 1992) as well as a 1/4 snap on ratchet and use them to this day. I did have to replace the SK 3 years ago, but one call to the warranty center managed to get a brand new one shipped (at no cost to me) to me within a week. I have since purchased the majority of my "regular use" tools from Snap-on, Matco, Mac, etc, and tend to purchase the impact (6-sided) sockets. This makes them easy to find and use. I am finally to the point that I have most tools I need, and when purchasing, I usually will pay extra for the better tool if it is likely to see hard \ often use.

 

Lorin, where/how do you purchase the Snap-On, Matco, Mac and other specialty brands?
Dr J

 

Snap-On, Matco, and Mac are available online as well as by finding a local dealer on a truck. Talk to a few local mechanics- most of them have tool guys stop by every couple of weeks to check on them and whatnot. Usually they'll give you a phone number of the guy and you can call and meet up with them somewhere or they'll give you their home address to come by and shop. Of course this comes with the caveat that they don't think you're going to waste their time.

If you call and just ask to "look around in the truck", then they're not too likely to take their time and gas money to come to you and sit there while you buy nothing.

If you tell them "Hey, I'm looking at buying a couple good ratchets and a socket set or two. Mind if I meet you somewhere and do the deal?" then they'll be more than happy to take your money.

 

As mentioned above, you can easily find the trucks and talk to the salesman. I have also picked up a few of them at pawn shops, and even at a flea market (buyer beware on these). I also have a few friends that wrench for a living, so I have also just had them pick up the piece I was looking for when the trucks visit their shop. The tools that get 70% of use tend to be a mixture of the brands listed above. My 14 year old son even goes for the same tools when given the choice (some of the differences are obvious). I am fortunate in that I have a fairly complete collection these days, so on the occasions that I come across some, I have the luxury of picking them up (if the price is right), or walking away. I dont regret any of the aftermarket tools purchased so far. I do have reservations on a few of the Craftsman pieces that have failed.