Pulled on a Acura CL-S but gas cut out at 100mph! Help
08-20-2002, 09:31 AM
#42
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
goddayum! Did I really post all that?!?! 
Speaking of which, I found a little more info on the new AV6 engine, the J30"B1" (just my own personal guess on the engine code)
J30B1 = castrated wannabe J32A2.
I found the factory power curves at Hondnews.com:
As you can see from the torque curve, Honda did the same retarded crap on this one as they did on the J30A1. Look at how little torque there is below 3000rpm where you're going to be cruising at 90% of the time. I'll bet it has the same retarded castrated non-VTEC cam profiles. Even those factory graphs are a little more optimistic, though.
Oh yeah, I converted that custom horsepower chart that I did over to Torque.
These are crank numbers converted from REAL chassis dyno charts, and not the optimistic Honda charts. The Honda graph above for the "old" engine shows that the J30A1 is supposed to be making about 175 lb-ft @ 3000rpm. But REAL WORLD chassis dyno's show it to be only around 130 lb-ft, and that's WITH conversion from chassis dyno back to crank figures. Honda tries very hard to hide how bad the low end really is on some of their engines.
But I know better.
Torque ownz j0o! :-)
Originally posted by bill99gxe
J30A1 = Castrated J32
VQ30 = Uncastrated
J30 < torque = VQ30
J30A1 = Castrated J32
VQ30 = Uncastrated
J30 < torque = VQ30
J30B1 = castrated wannabe J32A2.
I found the factory power curves at Hondnews.com:
As you can see from the torque curve, Honda did the same retarded crap on this one as they did on the J30A1. Look at how little torque there is below 3000rpm where you're going to be cruising at 90% of the time. I'll bet it has the same retarded castrated non-VTEC cam profiles. Even those factory graphs are a little more optimistic, though.
Oh yeah, I converted that custom horsepower chart that I did over to Torque.
These are crank numbers converted from REAL chassis dyno charts, and not the optimistic Honda charts. The Honda graph above for the "old" engine shows that the J30A1 is supposed to be making about 175 lb-ft @ 3000rpm. But REAL WORLD chassis dyno's show it to be only around 130 lb-ft, and that's WITH conversion from chassis dyno back to crank figures. Honda tries very hard to hide how bad the low end really is on some of their engines.
But I know better.
Torque ownz j0o! :-)
08-20-2002, 10:48 AM
#43
The missing moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,019
why is it that everytime there's a conversation about torque numbers, no one thinks about the gear ratio? I am curious what gear ration you used on cartest SteVTEC for the 2003 accord? You could be right, that it'd be slow as hell. But from what I understand, MT did a test on the auto 2003 4 door accord and ran a very low 15 second time... my personal guess is that with a 6 speed manual box, it would run about the same time as an manual equiped Altima.
Anyways, I'm going to go back and drive my torqueless Hondas.
Anyways, I'm going to go back and drive my torqueless Hondas.
08-20-2002, 10:52 AM
#44
Originally posted by Shingles
why is it that everytime there's a conversation about torque numbers, no one things about the gear ratio? I am curious what gear ration you used on cartest SteVTEC for the 2003 accord? You could be right, that it'd be slow as hell. But from what I understand, MT did a test on the auto 2003 4 door accord and ran a very low 15 second time... my personal guess is that with a 6 speed manual box, it would run about the same time as an manual equiped Altima.
Anyways, I'm going to go back and drive my torqueless Hondas.
why is it that everytime there's a conversation about torque numbers, no one things about the gear ratio? I am curious what gear ration you used on cartest SteVTEC for the 2003 accord? You could be right, that it'd be slow as hell. But from what I understand, MT did a test on the auto 2003 4 door accord and ran a very low 15 second time... my personal guess is that with a 6 speed manual box, it would run about the same time as an manual equiped Altima.
Anyways, I'm going to go back and drive my torqueless Hondas.
08-20-2002, 10:59 AM
#45
I thought we were discussing J30 vs. VQx vs. J32Ax vs. J32B1, although the gear ratio aspect is a good point. F20C, B18, close ratio 6-speed, lower weight vehicles, etc. seems out of the realm of comparison here.
08-20-2002, 11:05 AM
#46
The missing moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,019
Originally posted by bill99gxe
I thought we were discussing J30 vs. VQx vs. J32Ax vs. J32B1, although the gear ratio aspect is a good point.
F20C, B18, close ratio 6-speed, lower weight vehicles, etc. seems out of the realm of comparison here.
I thought we were discussing J30 vs. VQx vs. J32Ax vs. J32B1, although the gear ratio aspect is a good point. F20C, B18, close ratio 6-speed, lower weight vehicles, etc. seems out of the realm of comparison here.
Plus no one is talking about any of my cars... you automatically assumed that's what I was referring to.
08-20-2002, 11:08 AM
#48
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by Shingles
why is it that everytime there's a conversation about torque numbers, no one things about the gear ratio? I am curious what gear ration you used on cartest SteVTEC for the 2003 accord? You could be right, that it'd be slow as hell. But from what I understand, MT did a test on the auto 2003 4 door accord and ran a very low 15 second time... my personal guess is that with a 6 speed manual box, it would run about the same time as an manual equiped Altima.
Anyways, I'm going to go back and drive my torqueless Hondas.
why is it that everytime there's a conversation about torque numbers, no one things about the gear ratio? I am curious what gear ration you used on cartest SteVTEC for the 2003 accord? You could be right, that it'd be slow as hell. But from what I understand, MT did a test on the auto 2003 4 door accord and ran a very low 15 second time... my personal guess is that with a 6 speed manual box, it would run about the same time as an manual equiped Altima.
Anyways, I'm going to go back and drive my torqueless Hondas.
Gear ratios were plugged in directly from www.hondanews.com
The rev-ceiling is 6800rpm on the new engine, up from 6300rpm on the old one. This is good, but not quite enough to makeup for the lack of torque compared to the VQ35's. However, the 5AT will make a BIG difference and probably keep it pretty close to automagic Max/Alty's.
08-20-2002, 11:15 AM
#49
The missing moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,019
One question(asked sarcasticaly )-
Ok, say Honda engines have really less than ideal low ends.. I'll agree to that. Now again that's say that we are racing... how often do I visit that low end? That's right, off the line 1 gear for about 2 seconds. A lot of cars will get the jump on a Honda off the line... no doubt about it. Hell, a maxima will more than likely jump me off the line in my S2K. But, and you even show this in your dyno plots, generally Hondas have superior top ends... this is also why a lot of races again a Honda that go on for longer than 500 feet will have the Honda catch up.
Anyhoo, I don't even know what this conversation was about. lol so I'll go back to my hole now.
)-Ok, say Honda engines have really less than ideal low ends.. I'll agree to that. Now again that's say that we are racing... how often do I visit that low end? That's right, off the line 1 gear for about 2 seconds. A lot of cars will get the jump on a Honda off the line... no doubt about it. Hell, a maxima will more than likely jump me off the line in my S2K. But, and you even show this in your dyno plots, generally Hondas have superior top ends... this is also why a lot of races again a Honda that go on for longer than 500 feet will have the Honda catch up.
Anyhoo, I don't even know what this conversation was about. lol so I'll go back to my hole now.
Originally posted by SteVTEC
You can see a lot of my plugging and chugging at work HERE We've set up a whole Gen7 forum at the AV6 site.
Gear ratios were plugged in directly from www.hondanews.com
The rev-ceiling is 6800rpm on the new engine, up from 6300rpm on the old one. This is good, but not quite enough to makeup for the lack of torque compared to the VQ35's. However, the 5AT will make a BIG difference and probably keep it pretty close to automagic Max/Alty's.
You can see a lot of my plugging and chugging at work HERE We've set up a whole Gen7 forum at the AV6 site.
Gear ratios were plugged in directly from www.hondanews.com
The rev-ceiling is 6800rpm on the new engine, up from 6300rpm on the old one. This is good, but not quite enough to makeup for the lack of torque compared to the VQ35's. However, the 5AT will make a BIG difference and probably keep it pretty close to automagic Max/Alty's.
08-20-2002, 01:27 PM
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 149
Originally posted by Shingles
One question(asked sarcasticaly )-
Ok, say Honda engines have really less than ideal low ends.. I'll agree to that. Now again that's say that we are racing... how often do I visit that low end? That's right, off the line 1 gear for about 2 seconds. A lot of cars will get the jump on a Honda off the line... no doubt about it. Hell, a maxima will more than likely jump me off the line in my S2K. But, and you even show this in your dyno plots, generally Hondas have superior top ends... this is also why a lot of races again a Honda that go on for longer than 500 feet will have the Honda catch up.
One question(asked sarcasticaly
)-Ok, say Honda engines have really less than ideal low ends.. I'll agree to that. Now again that's say that we are racing... how often do I visit that low end? That's right, off the line 1 gear for about 2 seconds. A lot of cars will get the jump on a Honda off the line... no doubt about it. Hell, a maxima will more than likely jump me off the line in my S2K. But, and you even show this in your dyno plots, generally Hondas have superior top ends... this is also why a lot of races again a Honda that go on for longer than 500 feet will have the Honda catch up.
08-20-2002, 01:41 PM
#52
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by Acura2001CL-S
Exactly! Alot of cars beat me off the line, but I usually catch them in 2nd or 3rd gear... gotta love VTEC!
Exactly! Alot of cars beat me off the line, but I usually catch them in 2nd or 3rd gear... gotta love VTEC!
08-20-2002, 01:44 PM
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 149
Originally posted by SprintMax
I don't recall giving you permission to post in this thread
I don't recall giving you permission to post in this thread
08-20-2002, 01:49 PM
#55
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by Shingles
One question(asked sarcasticaly )-
Ok, say Honda engines have really less than ideal low ends.. I'll agree to that. Now again that's say that we are racing... how often do I visit that low end? That's right, off the line 1 gear for about 2 seconds. A lot of cars will get the jump on a Honda off the line... no doubt about it.
One question(asked sarcasticaly
)-Ok, say Honda engines have really less than ideal low ends.. I'll agree to that. Now again that's say that we are racing... how often do I visit that low end? That's right, off the line 1 gear for about 2 seconds. A lot of cars will get the jump on a Honda off the line... no doubt about it.
When you have a heavy car with an automatic tranny that you can't necessarily control optimally, it's better to have an engine with good torque output all-around rather than a peaky design like the Honda V6's.
Originally posted by Shingles
Hell, a maxima will more than likely jump me off the line in my S2K. But, and you even show this in your dyno plots, generally Hondas have superior top ends... this is also why a lot of races again a Honda that go on for longer than 500 feet will have the Honda catch up.
Hell, a maxima will more than likely jump me off the line in my S2K. But, and you even show this in your dyno plots, generally Hondas have superior top ends... this is also why a lot of races again a Honda that go on for longer than 500 feet will have the Honda catch up.
This is why big cube domestics still own the 1/4 mile tracks.
The VQ has domestic-like torque, all while retaining the good qualities of import engines.
08-20-2002, 02:02 PM
#57
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4
Honda vs. Nissan Engines
Hello,
Yea, I have been kinda quiet lately. I currently own an Acura Integra, but my 03 Maxima is currently on order. My Honda VTEC engine sucks below 4000 rpm's, so my car is kinda lousy off of the line. If I can keep it at very high rpm's, though, I do pretty well. Honda likes to make engines that are quiet and docile at low rpm's to get good fuel economy and emissions, but they have to work their butts off in order to make good hp. This is why my little 4-banger still can't get into the 14's. The car doesn't have much kick until it hits 5k. I run consistent 15.2's on 215/60's.
So here is the best part. I know of very few dealerships that will allow this, but a friend of mine works at a Nissan dealership in this area. I got my wife to drive my Integra in a race, and the salesman (my friend) and I were in the 03 Max 6-spd. It was soooooo funny! After about 80 mph, my Integra kept getting smaller and smaller in the rearview mirror. That plus all the extra headroom and interior space sold me. I will pick it up in a few weeks. Till then, oh, well. . . . .
Doug
Yea, I have been kinda quiet lately. I currently own an Acura Integra, but my 03 Maxima is currently on order. My Honda VTEC engine sucks below 4000 rpm's, so my car is kinda lousy off of the line. If I can keep it at very high rpm's, though, I do pretty well. Honda likes to make engines that are quiet and docile at low rpm's to get good fuel economy and emissions, but they have to work their butts off in order to make good hp. This is why my little 4-banger still can't get into the 14's. The car doesn't have much kick until it hits 5k. I run consistent 15.2's on 215/60's.
So here is the best part. I know of very few dealerships that will allow this, but a friend of mine works at a Nissan dealership in this area. I got my wife to drive my Integra in a race, and the salesman (my friend) and I were in the 03 Max 6-spd. It was soooooo funny! After about 80 mph, my Integra kept getting smaller and smaller in the rearview mirror. That plus all the extra headroom and interior space sold me. I will pick it up in a few weeks. Till then, oh, well. . . . .
Doug
08-20-2002, 02:07 PM
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,026
Originally posted by SprintMax
shing only had a 98 Auto VQ .. he didn't get the 5spd power
shing only had a 98 Auto VQ .. he didn't get the 5spd power
08-20-2002, 02:51 PM
#60
The missing moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,019
Originally posted by SteVTEC
The VQ has domestic-like torque, all while retaining the good qualities of import engines.
The VQ has domestic-like torque, all while retaining the good qualities of import engines.
Also, if there's one thing I wish, that's people would stop looking at just 1 peak number. Let's take a look at the entire area under the power curve. Plus if we are comparing VQ35 vs the J30A... then realize that there's .5 liter of displacment differences.
But, you know something? we can bench race all we want. All I know is I have raced a friend of mine in her Accord coupe V6... from about 20mph - about 90mph. Guess what? dead even. both stock cars. The point is, we can bench race all we want... in the real world. the numbers are close.
As for racing the integra with the 03 Max... kinda like me picking on a stock miata in my S2K.
08-20-2002, 03:06 PM
#62
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by Shingles
Also, if there's one thing I wish, that's people would stop looking at just 1 peak number. Let's take a look at the entire area under the power curve. Plus if we are comparing VQ35 vs the J30A... then realize that there's .5 liter of displacment differences.
Also, if there's one thing I wish, that's people would stop looking at just 1 peak number. Let's take a look at the entire area under the power curve. Plus if we are comparing VQ35 vs the J30A... then realize that there's .5 liter of displacment differences.
Originally posted by Shingles
But, you know something? we can bench race all we want. All I know is I have raced a friend of mine in her Accord coupe V6... from about 20mph - about 90mph. Guess what? dead even. both stock cars. The point is, we can bench race all we want... in the real world. the numbers are close.
But, you know something? we can bench race all we want. All I know is I have raced a friend of mine in her Accord coupe V6... from about 20mph - about 90mph. Guess what? dead even. both stock cars. The point is, we can bench race all we want... in the real world. the numbers are close.
) and 9 times out of 10 CarTest2k backs up the story pretty accurately. Including that CL-S I beat from 0-80.
Originally posted by Shingles
As for racing the integra with the 03 Max... kinda like me picking on a stock miata in my S2K. :-)
As for racing the integra with the 03 Max... kinda like me picking on a stock miata in my S2K. :-)
08-20-2002, 03:06 PM
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,026
Originally posted by bill99gxe
I'm still under the delusion this was a VQ30DE vs. J30A/J32B CL-S Accord peak horsepower/torque discussion and why they don't annihilate 4th or 5th gen VQ30s.........
I'm still under the delusion this was a VQ30DE vs. J30A/J32B CL-S Accord peak horsepower/torque discussion and why they don't annihilate 4th or 5th gen VQ30s.........
08-20-2002, 03:11 PM
#65
The missing moderator
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Originally posted by bill99gxe
I'm still under the delusion this was a VQ30DE vs. J30A/J32B CL-S Accord peak horsepower/torque discussion and why they don't annihilate 4th or 5th gen VQ30s.........
I'm still under the delusion this was a VQ30DE vs. J30A/J32B CL-S Accord peak horsepower/torque discussion and why they don't annihilate 4th or 5th gen VQ30s.........
08-20-2002, 03:15 PM
#66
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Posts: 2,019
Originally posted by NickStam
Shing come back to the org and put the smack down once in a while. Billy can't handle it 24/7
Shing come back to the org and put the smack down once in a while. Billy can't handle it 24/7
Stuff like this is good... but when people start dissing because it's a Honda, Toyota, domestic, etc... that's messed up and annoys me.
08-20-2002, 03:52 PM
#67
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Posts: n/a
Originally posted by Shingles
I like having healthy conversations like this one with SteVTEC...
Stuff like this is good... but when people start dissing because it's a Honda, Toyota, domestic, etc... that's messed up and annoys me.
I like having healthy conversations like this one with SteVTEC...
Stuff like this is good... but when people start dissing because it's a Honda, Toyota, domestic, etc... that's messed up and annoys me.
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