SteVTEC

I pulled on a stock looking S4 today!

Guy cut me off so we went at it.

From 70mph or so in 3rd all the way up to 110mph I was pulling (more like inching) on him all the way. And yes, I know he was trying because I could smell his rich exhaust going into my face. I switched over to another lane so drafting wasn't coming into play at all either.

Check this out...

Stock S4 2.7T: 250HP, 3600lb manual, 3700lb auto.
Manual AWD 25% drivetrain loss = ~188 awhp
Auto AWD 32% drivetrain loss = ~170 awhp

Stock Max: 160 fwhp / 3030lb = 105.6 whp/ton
Stock S4m: 188 awhp / 3600lb = 104.4 whp/ton
Stock S4a: 170 awhp / 3700lb = 91.9 whp/ton

I love this car more and more everyday. Yeah yeah, chipped he would smoke me, but he wasn't, and I can mod too. Also, I'm not claiming that I "killed" him either. He punched it from a few cars ahead and so did I. I never passed him, but I was steadily gaining on him all through 3rd and 4th gear.

So this isn't a kill thread. Just an AWD sucks thread

AWD is a ton heavier, and has much more drivetrain loss, which is BAD for performance once you're already rolling.

Chris91SE

iTrader: (1)

you love number crunching don't you?

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

Good God, Steve you are a human calculator and automotive stat book.....

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

do I have a chance racing a automatic WRX wagon on a roll

SteVTEC

It's what I do best

SteVTEC

As long as you get that crap out of your trunk, you could probably take a stock automagic scooby Your trap would be a tad higher, too

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

i am sorry stevie baby.. but something is wrong with his car..

i ran a "stock" S4 from 70 - 120 mph and he had 3 cars on me in the end.. and i had CAI and Y pipe on a very cold night.. ask deezo.. he was there..

costcowholesale

iTrader: (12)

I'll tell u tomorrow night what my REAL Trap is without the junk

SteVTEC

Hmm...well then lets look at a brief list of possibilities.

A quick search on the audiworld.com forums revealed that stock S4 6spds dyno at 190-200 whp. Stock autotragics dyno at 160-175 whp and weigh 100lb more. So my 188 whp estimate was a tad low but definitely in the ballpark. If it was a stock auto then I would have pulled on him a lot harder.

So with that in mind, the possibilities are...

1. I ran a modded automagic S4 and still pulled.
2. The guy had a faster stock (200whp) 6spd but just couldn't shift.
3. Your Max wasn't running right when you ran that S4.
4. The S4 you ran wasn't really stock.
5. I ran a stock or modded 6spd but his mom put in 87.
6. My car was running really good and/or I have a factory freak.
7. My A/C was off (it was cold out) and his wasn't.
8. He had a chipped 6spd and was just trying to see if he could pull on me in 6th gear

The possibilities are endless

This is why they say anything can happen on the streets. With 200whp, he would have pulled on me so maybe he was in the wrong gear. With 190 whp it still works out slightly in my favor even if he was a perfect driver. Regardless, it was close, and I was pulling on him very slowly.

I'm just trying to illustrate that these high-powered AWD cars aren't all that from a roll

SteVTEC

I forgot to mention that we were going uphill slightly. Assuming any two cars are dead even on level ground, the lighter one (me) will have an advantage going uphill (gravity is holding me back the least), and the heavier one will have the advantage going downhill (gravity is pushing it the most).

This would have come into play as well.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

1. She was running good.. i beat deezo.. my friends chipped vr6 GTI, and my cousin 97 5sd w/ Stillen Y pipe, all on the same night.
2. thats a very good point.. but my cousin's GS400 pulled him real hard
   

SteVTEC

GS400's are major highway beasts. S4's are not.

70 mph roll-on to Distance (CarTest)
S4 6spd (1/2 mile): 18.61s @ 114.39 mph
GS400 (1/2 mile): 17.72s @ 123.12 mph

S4 6spd (1 mile): 33.34s @ 127.96 mph
GS400 (1 mile): 31.29s @ 139.87 mph

2 seconds and 10 mph difference at 1 mile out is freaking crazy!! That's like over 30+ car-lengths!!!!

The GS400 has a ton more horsepower, a more efficient drivetrain, and only 200 lb more weight. Remind me not to even think about messing with one of those on the highway! It's crazy how fast those things are!

So the GS would have smoked both of you easily. But I think the S4 was definitely making a good bit more than stock for him to be pulling on you with I/Y mods like that.

soopermax02

How about drag?

You start getting up over 100 and it becomes the biggest factor. You think that the max may have a slightly better CD?

Have you ever sat in an S4? Wow...

SteVTEC

According to my CarTest2000 database...

GS400: 0.30
G4 Max: 0.32
S4: 0.34

So yeah, the GS400 will have much less drag at higher speeds than the S4. I didn't realize that the Gen4 Max has less drag than the S4, too. Ya learn something new everyday

VeeTec

My AWD 3000GT VR-4 pulled quite hard at highway speeds.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

MT stats for the 6M 2.7V6-TT S4 are 250hp, 5.5sec. 0-60, and 14.1@98.3 1/4-mile.

I saw a BRAND NEW(paper plate was like 1-week old) run a 13.5@101-04mph, however that was with a redline clutch drop that stranded his car at the end of the track smoking. Hehe. Funny thing was watching him call a tow-truck, while he scraped the shoe polish off his windows.

Anyways, your run was MOST LIKELY against a super soft shifting luxury autotragic caught in the wrong gear(you know how that feels), but neverless a great run against a $41K luxury car.

Dave B

I'd imagine a G4 Maxima is a bit more aerodynamic once you lower it a bit (ie keep less air going under the car)


Dave

NightRider

iTrader: (6)

Uh, you mean make the air under the car move faster?

Ghost face Max

Man, do I second that motion, when it comes to research you da man!!

JMAXIMA

just to back up what steve has said about his run in with an S4... a few months ago i had the same experience. running through town this guy in a yellow s4 and i were messing with each other. so we get to a stop light right before merging on to the highway,... the light changes and he screams off the line... so i'm thinking i'm toast. but due to a bit of traffic i catch up on the on ramp. at about 40mph it clears up and we both punch it. thinking i'm going to get dusted, i couldn't believe he wasn't pulling on me going up the ramp... it was dead even to about 100mph. shocked the heck out of me... and the best thing of all the guy gave me a big thumbs up. and we were both manuals... guessing he had a 6spd.

SteVTEC

LOL, thanks, but you're mag-racing. That trap-speed doesn't make much sense, but then again a lot of MT's times don't make sense either. A WRX has a *better* power to weight ratio than an S4 6spd but only traps at 93-94mph or so. How is it then that a slower S4 will trap 4-5 mph higher according to this?

The traction of AWD is what gives those cars the low ET's, but they still need power-to-weight to get the high trap speeds. I think the facilities that MT tests at really are downhill. But for this race I was going uphill (advantage to me)

OMG!!! I'd put money down that he was chipped too...all after a week. OMG..say bye-bye engine. The clutch probably isn't the only thing he smoked!

Well like I said, it could have been an automatic. But they only put down 160-175 whp according to the guys at audiworld.com, and this is barely anymore than a stock G4/5spd (~160whp), and they weigh 3700lb (almost 700lb more). If he was stock/auto I would have smoked him. I was pulling, barely, so if he was automagic he was definitely chipped.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

hmm.. seems like i was shafted by a chipped S4 .. i need to head to the pike now and find him

Dany

iTrader: (1)

I remember when I posted a while back that I raced an S4, not sure if it was Auto or 6-speed and I pulled on him. He had exhaust too and some suspension work.

Many peps on this board were saying, this is BS and all. S4s are not that fast, they fast 0-60 because of AWD and turbo that is tuned for great low end power.

My friends A4 1.8T chipped is pretty fast 0-60. But if we try from the roll, it is over pretty quickly.

SteVTEC

This is very true. When I was searching at www.audiworld.com I found a couple of stock or nearly stock dyno charts. You could see a very early peak in the torque curve and then it fell off steadily throughout the entire rest of the RPM range. The horsepower curve climbed very slowly. So saying that they're tuned for low-end would be very true.

And actually, it was really tough to find any sort of dyno charts for those cars with measurements in actual WHEEL horsepower. Most of them had been corrected back to crank figures. It's disgusting how much power you lose with an AWD drivetrain. I guess all the performance tuners like APR keep their figures at crank numbers for rather obvious reasons

SteVTEC

go git 'em

Lime

interesting.
cold helps turbos, Sprite, but you know that.

skeelo34

iTrader: (4)

You're slow.

Synki

I guess not very many people have had experience with S4's then ehh?

You probably raced an auto S4 but either way, it feels great to either "hang" or beat a more exotic car then what you have.

S4's are top end monsters. I wouldn't even bother racing one above 120mph. All it takes is a chip and they pull to 160+mph like nothing. I was running a X-Chip in mine along with a catback and the car pulled like crazy after 120mph.A 6spd S4 w/ a good driver, chipped and exhaust is good for 13.5-13.0's down the 1320.

My stage 4 WRX w/o a doubt in my mind would probably get pulled a bit after 140mph (And my turbo is good for 25psi and 400hp). Just my .02 cents since owned a S4 for the short time i had it.

And Steve, you are known as the human .orgY calculator.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

skeelo34

iTrader: (4)

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

One word Biturbo. Everyone knows the WRXs punny SINGLE turbo runs out of breath after 80mph.

He didn't launch too well, but I don't have his 60'. However, by his 101-104mph trap speed at our sh!tty track, I'd say he would have raped ya if it was a 6spd.

Nope, bone stock. I saw the engine bay, so no apparent mods, plus it takes more than a week to get the stock ECU shipped, soddered, and shipped back. I agree, he was a moron with money to burn. I'd like to hear him explain that one to the dealer. Hopefully, he tipped the tow-truck driver to lie about where he picked it up.

Dynapack 4WD dynos measure low, so don't take that "160-170whp" for face value. I've read AWD vehicles that had the rear driveshaft disconnected(WRX I think) and then tested on a Dynojet putting down 10-20whp more. Yes, you would have killed an autotragic from 0-60 and the 1/4-mile, but from a roll they are quick. I've played with a 1.8T auto A4 from a roll and was surprised how well it kept up, so I'd figure the extra 70hp of the 2.7TT would be a different ballgame.

Good run though! Just don't think the VQ is that good.

Supermachoman

I'm guessing you ran a stock tiptronic S4, nevertheless nice run.

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

Let me see, 4 valves per cylinder, normally aspirated V6, fixed intake manifold, and no variable timing. That Maxima goes against a twin turbo, 5 valve per cylinder V6, with a variable intake manifold and variable valve timing, plus AWD. You'd think that with all that going for it the S4 would leave a Max like it was standing still, but it doesn't

Yeah, the VQ is all that

DW

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Echo, echo....

BTW, the 2.7 has .3L less capacity, 700 lbs. more mass to haul(according to Steve), and an autotragic to put it down through, but costs $15K more to own.

The VQ is impressive, but not 60hp more impressive.

MAX2000JP

You almost positively raced a Tiptronic S4. The Auto really doesnt let the S4 show its true potential. If it was an 6 speed you would have been toast.

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

300 cc less capacity. Oh I don't know, but I thought that the 2, not one, but 2 turbos would more than make up for the smaller displacement

I do agree that it was most likely the autotragic that killed it. But anyways, I see the S4 as a typicial automotive example of too much technology, and not as much showing for it as I would think. Looks good in the brochure, though.

DW

Maxhawk

When I had my S4 at the track with bad bypass valves and bad MAF, I was running low 14's chipped at trap speeds in the 96-98 MPH range. When I went back with new bypass valves and bad MAF, my 1/4 mile time dropped to 13.8 at 99 MPH. I have yet to go back with my new MAF, but others with similar setups consistently run low 13's @ 100-105 MPH. I don't think MT"s numbers are too far off.


It's very difficult to get accurate wheel horsepower numbers for the S4. Different models of 4wd dynos seem to give wildly different numbers and everyone seems to have their own opinion about what the drivetrain loss should be. Even the published specs for the stock numbers seem a little off since 250HP/258lb-ft shouldn't be as fast as it is in a 3600+ lb car.

The S4 does make most of its power down low and the stock exhaust really starts to get restrictive above 5000 RPM. A chipped S4 with exhaust is a totally different animal (typically around 320HP/370lb-ft) and pulls pretty hard in a roll-on. Last year when it was cool out I did a roll on with a friend with an E46 M3. We went from 60-130 MPH and we were DEAD EVEN the whole way--neither of us could pull even a bumper length on each other. However once the temperature goes up the S4 slows down quite a bit since you're heating hot air by compressing it.

FWIW, there's no way that my (former) 97SE 5-spd with CAI, Y-pipe, and RT CAT could ever dream of keeping up with my S4. Nonetheless, good race....

Watch out for the Stage 3 S4's. About 410-420 HP / 500 lb-ft on pump gas. And even more power on 100 octane race gas.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

What are the typical 1/4-mile times for both 6spd and tiptronic STOCK? What are the best times STOCK? Just curious, because I may be looking to buy one someday.

Dynopack 4WD dynos seem to be the most consistent right?

Who's "Stage 3" is that?

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

A stock 6spd S4 doesnt have a chance in hell of trapping 105 stock. Typically they run ~14.1 @ 96-99 stock. 105mph is not possible from a stock S4 in the 1/4 mile. I have a friend who has intake and exhaust, no chip yet, on his S4, at the track, with a failing clutch, he was running 14.4s @ 97, with no launch whatsoever. Honestly I dont know why he went to the track since his clutch was in such bad shape. He could only muster 2.3 60' times.

That said, I raced him on the street from about a 30mph roll, we were both in SECOND gear, from 30-70 he put a good 2 cars on me.

I'm 0-2 against S4s on the street, the other one was a 1st gen 5cyl S4, back when I was stock. He pulled about 5 feet on me from 5-90mph.

hakk97se

I dunno about S4 numbers. My friend has a chipped one. She ran 14.5's at the track, and her friends with chipped S4's with more experience ran mid to high 13's. That is pretty quick for a small but heavy car with AWD drivetrain loss that makes that kind of power at the flywheel chipped or otherwise. I attribute it to.. a) a very slick 6spd that winds out the low gears very fast.. and b) a turbo that is spun up quick by its helper in the biturbo setup.. But what some of the other posters said about them is logically correct. The power to weight ratio is horrible and the drivetrain loss is pretty bad, comparing to the max, they should get rolled. So what gives? Also, the top end is not that great. They certainly do *not* pull to 160+ with no problem when chipped. In fact, it has less difficulty getting into the 130 range than the max, but from 130 to the limiter at 145 or so, it's a slow crawl. Even in a chipped (limiter removed) one we could barely hit 150.

Anyway.. who cares.. the 3.0 S4's come out next year, as well as the 450bhp AWD stock Audi RS6 (in the US, and yes, it will come non-avant).