I've gotta ask all of you.

1. Those fabulous 5th gen et's that we've been reading about, are you guys powershifting or lift-throttle shifting?

2. How are you launching? Normal launches or 5000rpm ultra-long clutch slipping?

3. Any other tips about how you run. Do you pull your spare out? Empty tank or full tank.

 

Well, I wouldnt call my ET's fabulous, but to answer your questions:

1. I powershift the living crap out of it,

2. 4500 rpm launch with a slow clutch ride out....just slow enough to be at the edge of adhesion,

3. About 1/3 to 1/4 tank of gas. A full tank will obviously slow you down. Ive taken the spare tire out, but that amount of weight will make only a tiny difference. Still, every 0.01 sec counts!


Since I run on the stock 17" wheels and tires, I have to ride the clutch out. Ive tried leaving off idle and just flooring it with a clutch dump, and the tires just spin. Stock Potenzas are not drag tires!

 

I guess you are fond of that A6 TT?

I looked into an S4 before getting the Max, but the price differential was too great (over $200 a month on a lease). The S4 is definitely faster from a standstill, but from a highway roll, the Max will hang right with it. But, a chip will fix that on the S4 Maybe my next car.......

 

Still the perfect car for me. Speed, comfort, yet with surprising agility for a car of it's girth.
I don't know about sticking with an S4 on a highway roll, though. I can outrun a 540 Bimmer from 60-120, and an S4 will grease me from the same speeds (provided that the driver downshifts 2 or 3 gears)
I found that out on a group drive with some S4 guys. I was thinking that they were no big deal, I was keeping up with them with ease on the highway. Then, at about 50, the guy in front of me downshifted and nailed it. He pulled away nicely. From 50-90 he opened up about 2.5 3 carlengths on me. I couldn't catch him, that's for sure.

 

I guess what I was getting at is the AWD induced drag. On the highway (from a roll) the AWD provides no benefit. It actually slows the car down substantially due to the added weight and the parasitic drag. But, from a standstill...YEEEHAAAA! Rev it up and dump it! I test drove the S4, and did a 5000 rpm clutch dump. Barely a squeal from the tires; it just took off. But, from say a 30 mph roll, going WOT didnt impress me all that heavily. Trap speeds bare this out. Most Quatrro Audis can out ET a car like a Maxima, but the trap speeds are similar. Your ET of 14.4 is completely out of reach for a stock equipped FWD Maxima, but the 95 mph trap speed is reached all the time. I have been hitting mid 95's lately.


OK..enough of my jealous gibberish! I may look at the Audis again for my next car...Rumour has it that Audi will be pumping up the S4 in preparation for competition from the upcoming M3. We all know that all thats required is a simple chip change

 

I do understand about the "roll on" acceleration. In the 2.7T when you first open the throttle, it seems "soft" but once up to about 3500, I get a very strong pull all the way to redline. I've also learned that as sporty as my car is, it's not a 1/4 mile car. It does well, but it's better suited for high-speed running. 3rd thru 6th are geared nice and tightly, so once in 3rd, your acceleration doesn't taper as much as it would with normally spaced ratios. That's why (I assume) on those runs I had against a GS400 and the E430, I pulled ahead of them on the launch, they pulled close (in the case of the 430, dead even) with me in 2nd gear, then in 3rd, I opened up a nice gap, then in 4th, they were about 2-3 car lengths back and sucking wind.
I catch people by surprise like that. When on the highway, all I need is to drop to 3rd gear (which is good to 98-99 mph) for maximum thrust. An upshift to 4th gear (at 6500 rpm) only drops my revs to 4200 (give or take a hundred) right in the meat of the powerband. Same goes for 5th and 6th. That's one thing that I love the most about this car, the top-end acceleration.

 

Are you saying this in general or it's just a one time deal that you experienced?

See, when I raced at E-town, there was a 5406s did 14.4 with bad launch, now you did 14.4 also with the advantage of AWD launch, so you guys should be side by side from 0-hi90's, why exactly will you out run him 60-120 assuming both of you can drive and downshift to the optimal lower gear?
Does 540 all of sudden run outta breath after 100? I doubt it, C&D's 0-150 artical the 5406s is on the top with 911 likes. 540 isn't not a car with sucky hignend.

Take it as flame if you want, but I just don't get it so I am asking. Maybe you can meet me to race my M roadster from 60-120, cuz I got walked once by a 540 on highend, so you should spank me if you can walk a 540, wanna do that?

 

My buddy has the 4.2L (I think that's what it is) A6 quattro with the monster wide wheels and tires. God that car is nasty looking. He SMOKED our asses in a royal manner from about 60mph (I was in a very healthy Integra GSR). Are they faster or slower than the A6 tt?
Also, I have to lean towards Woodear's side here and say that the 540 has an ungodly stout top end. That's a trait of all BMW's, especially ones with the mighty 4 liter.
I'm assuming your car is chipped, or no?

 

This is another thing I don't get.

Let's see some facts, here is a dyno graph of a stock '98 5406s:
<img src="http://www.logicalsteps.com/540/Dyno/dyno_base.JPG">
This car outputs a max of 288lb-ft at the wheels, and it has <b>250 lb-ft</b> from <b>2300-5500rpm</b>(BMW is known for their flat torque curve).
I don't have a 2.7TT dyno, if you do, please share with us. Before that, we can only look at the factory spec for it. The torque at crank is 258lb/ft@1850-3600rpm, now I will give you that Audi prolly underrate their engine, so I will assume it can output <b>250lb-ft</b> at the wheels from <b>1850-3600rpm</b>(fair enough?).
Now my question is, when you race a 540 at 60mph rolling, if he downshifts to 3rd just like you, what makes you think your A6 should be faster?? I know you are in your powerband but so is he. You don't output more torque than a 540 and you don't have a wider torque band either, your cars weights the same, so, why??

 

I got behind a 540 at a light one time. he took off so I took off behind him. I never did catch him but he didn't get more then 2 car distance on me. after about 130 he was shocked to see I was still near his ***. he took and exit slowed down and gave me a thumbs up. My poor max, I got beat but didn't get killed.

Also the 540 was a auto and I can see everytime the gear shifted a puff of black smoke came out of the exaust. Assuming he was WOT and never lifted.

 

But in all seriousness, I couldn't give you a definite reason. Here are a few possibilities:

1. The A6 2.7 is more potent than most people think. Not trying to start a flame war, but many Audi folks think I'm b'ssing them when I tell them my et's.

2. The car is geared optimally for higher speed acceleration. It's hard to explain in words, but riding in the car on a max acceleration run will show you. It's almost like changing gears on a superbike. Not a large rpm drop, feels strange in a car, but it works apparently.

3. Not a huge difference in HP between the 540 6 spd any my car. I've got a rated (conservatively) 250 hp, based upon my et's and trap speed, my actual figure is more like 270-275. 282HP to 270-275, pretty close. Say the gearing in the A6 is a better match to the engine's powerband, it'd be close. Aerodynamics play a large part in top speed acceleration as well.

I remember that C&D article, (I've collected C/D for the past 15 years) That 540 they tested was one of the stronger ones I've seen numbers on. I dunno, other than that.

 

The 4.2 A6 is a bit slower (.7) from 0-60, using maunfacturers numbers. The 4.2 runs 6.7 to 60, the 2.7 6 flat.
Using my numbers, I hit 50 in something like 5.6-.7.
I've raced one or two 4.2's in mine, and I've flat out blown them away from 0 all the way to top of 3rd (just under 100) At that point, I had about 5-6 carlengths on it, so that is approximately .5-.6 difference.

Now, as far as the BMW having an ungodly stout top end, I won't debate that. But people have to understand that BMW is not the only German manufacturer that builds performance automobiles. Many are overlooking the 2.7as a formidable performer. Hell, my et's are nothing to sneeze at. That should tell you that the 2.7t can haul if it wants to.

My car is stock, with the exception of a drop in K&N filter.

 

I'm not thinking it, it happened on the NJ turnpike. I don't have a dyno chart for a stock A6 2.7. I'll see if I can dig one up for the S4, supposedly the same powertrain, although I was told that the A6 ECU runs slightly higher boost levels.
Based upon the factory numbers, my car shouldn't run as quickly as it did in the 1/4, so it's obvious that they are not 100% accurate.

 

Not everyone Id have aa chipped S4 in my driveway right now if the payment wasnt so high.....

 

>>> I'm not thinking it, it happened on the NJ turnpike.

I am not saying it didn't happen.
My point is, how are you 100% sure the 540 downshifted to 3rd just like you and gave you all he got?? In another word, he went all out to race you.

>>> I don't have a dyno chart for a stock A6 2.7. I'll see if I can dig one up for the S4, supposedly the same powertrain, although I was told that the A6 ECU runs slightly higher boost levels.

Yeah maybe you can dig out a dyno sheet and we can compare it with the 540 ones.
I am a man that respects facts, if you can show a stock S4/2.7T dyno that can match the numbers(which I doubt) of the 540 I showed, then we have something to base our discussion on.

>>> Based upon the factory numbers, my car shouldn't run as quickly as it did in the 1/4, so it's obvious that they are not 100% accurate.

Of course. I already said myself that Audi most likely underrate their numbers, thus I was giving you 250lb-ft at the wheels, I think that's fair enough already, don't you?

Anyway, the easiest way to find out, is you and me race, we roll at 60mph then punch it at the same time, we let off at top of 4th which is above 120,ph, to see who can pull on who. How is that??

 

I've got too many problems (i.e points) to try something like that. All too often this is what discussions with you result in. Nor will I continue this thread with you, I no longer want to waste bandwidth with replies to you. This has absolutely nothing to do with the original posts. Please continue if you like.

 

I see.

So:
I calmly listed facts and proof such as dyno sheet and numbers.
I didn't say anything you claimed didn't happen, I was just offering a possibility of why it happened the way it happened.
I friendly ask for a race, so we can have some reference to base discussion on.

But anyhow it was still considered a flame, right??

Also, you race left and right, that's why you've got all the roadkills on 540, GS400, A6 4.2..., now all of sudden you won't race me 60-120. I see, it must be that you are trying to be a good law-obeying citizen now, it can't be that you doubt you can beat me, right???

 

2000 Max GXE 5-speed here w/ 6'6" 300lb+ driver.
Read my sig for my times.
I usually launch at about 5000 rpm a ride the clutch out.
I try to get to the tank w/ about 1/4 tank or so.
And NO i do not "powershift"...its all lift throttle.
I would rather sacrafice a tenth or so and save my transmission (as well as have less of a chance of misshifting).
I usually can manage 2.2 sec 60' times on my 18's easily.
I'm pretty sure if you other 5th gen'ers arent running as quick as some of us...it probably has to do w/ the first 60 feet.

 

That's what I was trying to compare. Larry powershifts, and he's approx .1 quicker than you. I was thinking that powershifting would make a bigger difference.
Are you able to run your 5th gen with a warm motor, or does it prefer to be cold. To get decent times from the 4th gens, we had to let our intakes cool down between runs. If the manifold was hot to the touch (as a rule of thumb) I needed to cool down more.
Trying to collect some info for a buddy of mine.

 

I did make some runs without powershifting and the times were insignificantly different. I just powershift now becuase Im scrapping for every 0.01 sec and the trans is under warranty. I wont have this car for very much longer. When the new WRX comes out, Ill most likely join the AWD ranks

As far as engine heat soak, Ive found the 5th gen to like to be warm. When its smoking ho, it runs a tad slower, but not much. When its dead cold, it runs terribly. The first 5 minutes of my drive each way are very jerky, bordering on sputtering. In fact, I'm amazed how poorly the car runs when cold.

 

The car does run like crap when its cool. Tranny shifts are hard and engine sputters like its gonna hop and shut off. how meny miles U got on your clutch? lately I've noticed my car looses grip quick. tried to lower the air pressue in tires to 30 but still it doesn't grip as good. 2 thinks I'm thinking. COLD AS HECK OUT, Tires not warm enough to Grab the road, 2nd which I know for sure, Still COLD as heck out and the engine Screams when U hit the throttle. A lot more power when the engine warms up then during the summer. Anyone wanna comment on this??

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimW

Quote:

That's what I was trying to compare. Larry powershifts, and he's approx .1 quicker than you. I was thinking that powershifting would make a bigger difference.
Are you able to run your 5th gen with a warm motor, or does it prefer to be cold. To get decent times from the 4th gens, we had to let our intakes cool down between runs. If the manifold was hot to the touch (as a rule of thumb) I needed to cool down more.
Trying to collect some info for a buddy of mine.

Actually Larry's best pass was 7/100ths quicker than mine...but my trap speed was slightly higher than his. Not to mention that he has a Y-pipe & Cold Air Intake. My car is completely stock w/ the exception of my 18" rims (which i keep on at the track) & a $39 K&N filter. I'm sure if i threw on my stock 15's i could pick up at least a full tenth (cuz i should lose the horrible wheel hop i get on 18's).
As far as temperature of the engine goes...that doesnt seem to make any difference. I've made numerous passes back to back to back and have been quite consistent..always within 1/10th...and the difference is always as a result of the first 60 feet (traction).
BTW: It is NOT good to run your car W.O.T while the engine is cold...remember that.

 

Sure jim ...i'll share my track skills..


i always powershif....wait a minute.. i drive and auto .. doh

oh well... come springtime it won't matter..

Ant

 

There are so many variables to this, its almost an exercise in futility in discussing it. Basically, all our 5th gen cars, on any given day, make almost the same power. The "skewing" factors are temperature, humidity, traction, wind, and of course, driver skill. The fact that "my car runs this" and "that car runs that", is just bench racing. Its fun, but its not really all that meaningful. Since my car has one of the faster 5th gen N/A ETs, Ill enjoy it But, I realize that there is nothing special about my car. There are a 1000 out there equipped exactly the same that can turn the same time at the same MPH. And lucky for me, my MPH seems to have come up, even at the same ET. Last time out I hit 14.76 @ 95.4 mph and a bunch of high 14.7's and low 14.8's.

With the cold weather coming up this Saturday (highs in the 50's) Im expecting lower ETs and more mph. See where Im going with this? Same car...different conditions..thus different results. Thats why its next to impossible to accurately compare cars that arent side by side.

Anyway, lets remember that our cars are not race cars. We just enjoy beating the crap out of them like they are!

And, lets keep it fun.

 

Woodear-

Are you a bench racer or what Wow!!! There is so much more to a cars speed than just the power numbers. You MUST consider gearing, weight, and aerodynamics atleast. Jim is only running a 14.4@95mph, BUT look at his 60 foot. That is crap for a AWD car (sorry Jim). If he was a little crazy and dumped the clutch at 4500 rpms he'd be in the low 14s. 1.8 60 foots should be pretty easy out of a A6 2.7T.


Dave

 

Jim-
I think you seriously missed out by not owning a 5 speed Maxima. You would have expericed the same 4000+rpm shift "lands". When racing, my Max lands at 4400 rpm in 2nd, 4300 rpm in 3rd, 4200 rpm in 4th, and 4000 rpm in 5th. It works out great because it puts deep into my torque and right at the beginning powerband.

Dave

 

Jim, if you are interested in a trade Im all ears! A mint 2k 5 speed SE with a few mods could be yours......

 

Unfortunately we are not talking about 1/4m time, I said myself before being an AWD all he needs to do is to drop the clutch at redline to redue his time, who is denying that???
The point is, whether his A6 2.7T is able to walk a 540 at a 65mph rolling, that is another story. AWD doesn't help you when you punch it at 65mph, it actually robs power from you. I don't see how it can walk a 540 which outputs 250+ lb-ft from 2200-5500rpm.

I am not sure about the bench racing calling. Because I called his name and challenged him to race my M roadster, 5406s walked me on topend before, if he can walk a 540 on topend, he should be able to whoop me on highend. So let's hit the street and see who gets his doors blown off. He is the quiter here, not me. You should call him bench racing, cuz I am more than willing to get off my bench and hit the street with him.


[Edited by WoodEar on 12-29-2000 at 11:42 PM]

 

why do you say he missed out on the 5th gen?
number talks, his A6 ran 14.4 stock, your best time is 14.91, fine you can improve but i don't think you will ever see 14.4 in stock form, so what did he miss by getting the a6 instead of a 5th gen max??

also, not a flame or anything, i am just curious, is it actually a braging right that a car lands in power band when you shift properly at race?? cuz i think domestic gearing suck, forget about them. but manual imports all have pretty decent gearing, no? what car doesn't land in power band when you race?

 

For the runs I did, I launched at 4700-4800 rpm with a quick engagement of the clutch (not a clutch drop, but a rapid even engagement) I was assured that dropping the clutch at about 5000 will cut about .15 from my 60' time, and I should be running 14.2's. I'm just afraid to burn up the clutch on the car.

 

clutch dump, that is. Ok the over priced VW as well !!!


Why is it that all you guys think that the fastest way to a 60' time is dumping the clutch at 5K rpm??? This is NOT the fastest way to lower your 60' times. (over priced VW's being the exception, I'll explain later)

The fastest way to launch is to let the clutch out fast and smooth, w/ the rpms just past peak torque. You still have to ride out the clutch, but just to the point where the rear tires are ever so slightly breaking loose.

I tried the infamous clutch dump ONCE at the track. Got a 60' time of 2.7s. Why??? Cause I just stood there at the line, w/ all 4 wheels spinning. And this was w/ shaved road racing tires.

Sure you all hear about 1.6 or 1.7 60' times w/ AWD, but it is damn hard to do this consistently. Only a few can claim do this like clockwork. The average driver will get a 2.0s time.

Now on to the 'uniqueness' of the VW system. For your VW, a clutch drop IS the fastest way to get a low 60' time. Why?? Because you guys don't true LSDs for the front or back, only in the center. VW uses that EDL crap which actually applies the brakes to stop wheelspin, no matter how hard the launch. As someone already posted about doing the clutch drop on an S4, it just takes off w/ little drama.

Now here's my beef. Somebody explain to me the wisdom in using the brakes to help launch the car!?! First and foremost, you're wasting valuable energy that would have been put to good use (acceleration!)had VW decided put a real LSD back there. Second, you're accelerating wear on the brake system. Why VW, why? Sure it would add more cost to use a real LSD system, but when you're looking at 40 large, BFD? So what if it's an extra grand, there's enough losers out there shelling $2K for a GPS system that they really don't need. (Ok, maybe most of these GPS buyers are chronically getting lost on the way home from work)

Here's an interesting tidbit regarding the A6tt vs 540i sport debacle. Guess which car weighs the most?

 

Just want to remind everyone
Let's not get carried away how the AWD can launch and what's the best technique for low 60" times.

The ****ing puzzle here is:
Whether a A6 2.7T(3759lbs, 258lb/ft@1850-3600rpm at <b>crank</b> but most likely underrated) can walk a 5406s(3748lbs, 250+lb/ft from 2300-5500rpm with max 288lb-ft at the <b>wheels</b>).

Stick to the subject

 

Woodear-

First off, I said Jim should have owned a 5 speed, not a 5th gen.

As for gearing, many domestics don't have crappy gearing. I don't know where you get your info. I'm assuming your talking about musclecars (Mustangs, Camaros) and the Corvette. I really think you need to stop talking out of you ***. Big displacement, hi-po, and big torque engines don't need aggressive gearing to accelerate quickly. Why don't they need deep gears? Because they make BIG torque and they typically don't wind out to a high rpm (6500+). The gearing doesn't feel "tight" because it doesn't need it. My old 94 Z28 would pull damn hard at 2500 rpms straight to 5500 rpms with a very weak 2.73 gear. Find a multicam V8 that can do that. I easily walked 3 540 when I had my Z28 (13.4s@104mph). Little Japanese and German motors need very deep gears (3.60-4.45 ratios) to make up for what they lack in the lowend. You know what they lack? TORQUE!!!! You know how they make up for the lack of torque? TORQUE MULTIPLICATION thru deep gears. Until you drive a American V8 muscle/sportscar and you feel the huge kick in the *** good ole' American torque, I suggest you be quiet. The 5.7 LS1 motor in the Camaro/Trans Am makes 305+ rwhp and 305 ft/lbs of torque bonestock. Those are huge numbers from an "ancient" pushrod motor. The torque is at 300 ft/lbs at 2100 rpms straight to 5500 rpms. How's that for flat torque range?

As for the 540 vs A6 2.7T in the topend. The weight and power numbers you posted make the cars seem very close. We all know AWD does have more drivetrain loss, BUT I think you are greatly underestimating the power of the A6 2.7T. The Audi is rated at 250hp, BUT I've seen AWD dyno runs of stock S4s (same motor) cranking out 241 hp to the wheels. That works out to about 280-290hp at the fly. The A6 also has very good gearing. I can see how a A6 2.7T could slowly walk a 540.


Dave

 

>>> First off, I said Jim should have owned a 5 speed, not a 5th gen.

You are correct, I read it wrong. So disregard what I said about that.

>>> As for gearing, many domestics don't have crappy gearing. I don't know where you get your info. I'm assuming your talking about musclecars (Mustangs, Camaros) and the Corvette. I really think you need to stop talking out of you ***.

So fine domestic has good gearing and powerband, ok?
That only helps my argument, because, why did you brag about the powerband on Maxima if most others car has good gearing/powerband anyway??

>>> The 5.7 LS1 motor in the Camaro/Trans Am makes 305+ rwhp and 305 ft/lbs of torque bonestock. Those are huge numbers from an "ancient" pushrod motor. The torque is at 300 ft/lbs at 2100 rpms straight to 5500 rpms. How's that for flat torque range?

That's very good, even though it does take them 5.7L to do so.
Anyway, now if I say, a modded A6 2.7(let's suppose it has 300lb-ft from 2k-5k) will walk that LS1 car, will you disagree??

>>> you are greatly underestimating the power of the A6 2.7T. The Audi is rated at 250hp, BUT I've seen AWD dyno runs of stock S4s (same motor) cranking out 241 hp to the wheels. That works out to about 280-290hp at the fly. The A6 also has very good gearing. I can see how a A6 2.7T could slowly walk a 540.

You obviously can't read. Because I already admited that Audi underrated their engine. Sure, S4 outputs 241hp to the wheel, big deal, 540 outputs 265hp at the wheels, now what???
I will say this one more time maybe you will get it:
Even Audi in real world outputs more than what the company claim, it STILL doesn't have more hp or troque or a flater powerband than a 540, so it ain't gonna walk a 540.

Shiet, if I say my V6 Camry, or V6 Accord, or V6 whatever with close to Maxima power, walking a Maxima from 70+, I am sure I won't hear the end of it from you guys.
Double standard at its' best on this board

 

See, Jim, that's why I have respect for you.
You admit you are chicken when you are unwilling to race me and back up your claim. Not like some other people who live in denial

 

but just from intutitive thinking,
I think a 540-6-speed will be a tad bit faster than the A6.
I don't think a A6 will walk on a 540, unless it's chipped.

That 4.4 v8 is mighty strong.

But then, I maybe wrong, cause I have not been fortunate enough to drive any of those "super German" cars yet.
But you know, 540s are really fast.

 

Rememer, Jim W. behine the wheel = 100hp
If his 15.1 Maxima can whoop numberous 540 and GS400 day in and day out, his A6 2.7T should eat 540 for lunch.
Muhahahahahaha

 

This thread has deteriorated beyond belief.

 

Did you have a bad day or what. Chill man...life is beautiful. All the cars you guys are talking about are awesome and fun to drive...why get into such a battle with comrades.

It just sounds like you want a race with someone really bad.

Why are you ******* people out...Peace brother

 

I can beat you all on the track with my T pass. So kiss my *** and STFU already.