Sin

All winter, I've been reading about a LOT of people on this org, driving around in all seasons and EVEN Z rated summer tires. We spend THOUSANDS a year on everything from going faster parts, to audio, to just aesthetics. But we can't srounge together a couple hundred for snows? C'mon guys, think about this logically. You could lose not only the mods, but the entire car in an accident, and I'm not even mentioning life and health of yourself, your passengers or those that we share the road with. Why? Because it seems many (not all) care more about those mods, than what's really important, your life and the life of those we share the road with.

Such accidents are plentiful on this board, this winter. ericdwong, I'm not trying to single you out, but you're a convenient example right now since your thread is fresh. You drove a high torque, near 50/50 weight distribution, car and most of all, on SUPER WIDE summer tires in winter road conditions. Honestly, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm sure many people not only don't feel sorry for you, but think you got what you deserve. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against you personally. I wish you the best in repairing your car, and having your insurance problems worked out. But I'm sure many of us don't feel sorry for you, and honestly think you got what you deserved.

This was not an isolated incidence. 97maximase5spd flipped his car, totalling it, risking the his life and his passengers' lives with his performance tires. And his beloved car? Gone. Then there is Max5spdDrifter, that also incured damage due to his admitted "performance tires". Don't forget, EddiexAhn. And the list goes on guys.

Orgers, I'm not trying to make you guys feel bad, or to lecture you, or any negative emotions like that. In fact, I'm here to beg you to think about your safety, and the safety of others. I know many of you will say, I just drive slower when it snows, or there's ice. Well that's not enough. You should be driving slower, ON snow tires. Hate me if you will, I will not hate you in return, or argue with you over the merits of snow tires. Being car enthusiasts, you guys SHOULD KNOW better.

Honestly orgers, I'm begging you. PLEASE get snows on your car if you see winter conditions.

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

So how's that new job with the snow tire manufacturer?

I run high performance all season and have no problems. Thanks.

Sin

Be as snide as you want. But just ask yourself, would you want your child driving their car on "high performance all seasons" tires in winter conditions?

geo1317

iTrader: (17)

even with snow tires or 4x4 its still dangerous cause people tend to think its safe and they drive way too fast for the weather conditions. Just use your head and dont drive when its snowing and if you have to take it slow.

Sin

I definetly agree. But often, it is just not safe to be out on the roads in winter conditions, without snow tires.

I'd like to advocate both safe driving, and winter tires in winter conditions.

Tanman

I just ordered the HTR+ All Seasons for my car. From reviews I've seen, they are rated pretty high for winter\snow use. Not as good as snow tires, but then you don't have to mess around with swapping them out every winter.

I've been driving on summer tires for a week and luckily it's only snowed once. The one day it snowed, I went for a drive and slid off the road on this circular freeway entrance ramp. It's a weird feeling having your car move sideways. Luckily I didn't hit anything and just slide onto the shoulder of the road, but that was enough to convince me to get all season tires.

Sin

Too bad it often takes events like this, and significantly more severe ones as well, to convince people of just how unsafe it is to be driving on all season tires in the snow, and even worse summer tires.

Just last week, most of the North East was shut down because of snow. And it's not even like it was a ridiculous amount. Many parts of the world see it on a yearly basis. Many lost hundreds of dollars in deductibles, lives, permanent injuries, and the lives of loved ones. All to save on about $100 US a winter in snows (cost's about $400 to get snows which last for about 4 years). That makes a lot of financial sense doesn't it?

Tanman

I partly agree with you, but I think all seasons are adequate for snow use, and without the hassle or expense of having a second set of tires. I think you should drive carefully in the snow\ice no matter what tires you use, but with summer tires it doesn't matter how careful you are, you're going to regret it.

Sin

All seasons are not adequate for snow use. They are a compromise for the lack of driving care that North America is infamous for. In all other parts of the world that are industrialized and that have winter weather, putting on snow tires is second nature.

Talk to any international tire manufacturing company and they'll tell you the same. Only North American really loves the all season tire. Most other countries know that an all season can easily take twice as long a distance to come to a stop on snow or ice. It seems to be that as long as you don't get stuck, a North American thinks it's a great tire.

Heck, just write into Car and Driver, Road and Track, and any other mainstream auto enthusiast magazine and they'll tell you the same. Only North American seems to have this disregard for proper winter driving preparation.

BigJuice

Well, it mostly just rains up here and where it snows i haven't ventured as yet.

MaximaMoJo

I live in Indiana and I HAVE NEVER OWNED SNOW TIRES. I have always used all season tires. All season tires are fine. I own a Ford Ranger as well as my Max and I haven't had any problems. Summer tires are a different story, you are just plain stupid to use these in Indiana or any other place where it snows. If I wanted to get the same effect as using summer tires in the snow I would dump a quart of oil on each tire, even then I would probably have better traction! All seasons are fine, summer tires no way.

pmg

Yeah I'm through with all-season tires. Summer tires and Winter tires rule. I didn't get my winter tires on in time this year. I was stopped in a snow covered highway with my summer tires on and I couldn not take off on flat ground. The car would just turn to the right. It was scary. My winter tires make the Max handle better in the snow than my wife's 4 wheel drive subaru with all seasons (she even admitted it after she had the back end start coming around on a turn).

-jeremy

We got like 8 inches of snow one night last week - I couldn't wait to get out and drive in it.

SVRider

It doesn't snow where I live.

Jason R

iTrader: (39)

all i could afford were Z=Rated Yokohama AVS Intermediates at $44 a pop. so, i don't wanna hear your whining and complaining.



plus, i don't drive that much when it snows. i wait for it to melt most of the way.

Tanman

That's when it's most dangerous, because the melted snow freezes on the ground and becomes ice!

redmaxpa007

iTrader: (21)

that is y my maxima sits on the winter and i drive low hp low tq front wheel drive car in the winter.... aka the beater..

Frank Fontaine

Sumitomo HTR+ 235/40-WR18 was fine when we got 9" and fine when we got 25". I know they're not as good as a Nokia Hakkapeliitta 10 with studs but I just don't think I need to drive when the roads are too slick for the HTR+. Ice is ice no matter what rubber you've got goin' on.

Now if you have a RWD that's a whole 'nother ball of wax, you need snows all 'round. The 3 major offenders of bad driving when snowing in PA are the following people:

a) RWD European cars
b) 2WD pickups and SUV's, usually fleet vehicles
c) anything with a Buick nameplate

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I feel sorry for anyone who has had an accident due to the wrong tires for the conditions, but I cannot say I'm surprised at all. People either dont know or don't care about their snow traction, I can't understand it either.

Uconn411

I can't understand why people won't invest a few hundred dollars for snow tires. It may save you from causing an accident. Or hitting something and ruining you're beloved max. I'm not so concerned about going, its braking that concerns me, as well as grip. Its the 1st purchase I made for my new max, and I'm glad I've purchased them since the NE winter has been especially hard this year.
Just go to tirerack.com, get a set of steel wheels and read the reviews on winter tires before purchasing, and feel safer while driving.

If you're between buying tint or spending money on tires, the choice is obvious. Its dam cold out, you don't need tint until summer!

srbarnes4ever

I couldn't agree more right now...We here in the midwest (KY to be exact) got hit with a boatload of snow and ice over the past 2 weeks and I've been riding on Michellin Pilot Sport A/Ss which are right up in the top 2 or 3 tires in the world (All-season) and for the first time in the 20 months I've owned my car I invoked the ABS multiple times due to slippage and loss of traction. Keep in mind this tire has a section of tread devoted to snow traction and still I was all over the place even in slow speed stops. I'm am now convinced that the best all season tire isn't worth a damn in snow..you need a winter tire designed with the sipes and tread design and material to handle the cold, snow and ice IF you receive more than a day or two of snow each winter. I'll have me a set next winter...Good luck gang.

Phoenix1911

I have to agree with Sin on this one... Living in Canada for the past 15 years has proven time, and time and time again that a summer tire winter tire setup is the ONLY way to go... All seasons do not, and never will cut it when it snows... You ARE kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. The all season is a convenince for the consumer, but the sacrifices are unjust. The tread is slightly more aggressive and the compound is such that it won't freeze solid at temperature like a summer sport tire will, but these two things still barely do squat during the winter.

I drive rentals a LOT through work when I have to go to Toronto or Montreal, and they always have all seasons on them. During the winter months they slide and slip everywhere on all makes of cars and even driving straight on the highway can be very hairaising (and no I don't drive like a retard when its snowing, I have a perfect driving record). I've got Michelin Alpines on my Max and they perform amazing on snow and ice, never felt the ABS, and I have great control at speed..

My .02c

Phoenix1911

Frank Fontaine

If you live in Montréal, why buy a summer tire that you can only use for 3-4 months? It would be the opposite situation. Buy a high-performance winter tire and leave it on all year round.

To recommend that everybody use 4 snows is just silly. There are places in the States that don't even have snow removal equipment, why in the world would those people purchase an extra set of rims and snow tires? Not everybody is a rich kid.

If you don't believe that the Sumitomo HTR+, which is a WR rated tire, can go in the snow, then you just don't believe it. But I can tell you we got officially 21" a couple weeks ago and those tires worked.

Interesting that Michelin has the Canadian market sewn-up, with a little Bridgestone on the side. Tire tests show Nokia Hakkapeliittas are far superior to both. You cannot use chemistry to make any type of rubber bite as much as a metal stud, and Nokia even designed what they call the eco stud. Amazing how successful marketing gets people to buy whatever the marketers say. I'd suggest that Canadians take a drive over the border to NYS or VT and pick up some Nokias--they'll find out what a real snow tire is all about.

Phoenix1911

3-4 months hardly, I live in Ottawa, not the north pole, its approx a 6 month split winter/summer tire, with some overlap depending on freak heat spells and snow storms.

Leaving a snow tire on all year around will kill your milage and treadlife, the tires really deteriorate in warmer weather. Look at is this way, if you have winter/summer combo you will get twice as much use out of your tires TIME wise because you only run on them half a year, so money wise it only costs the price of rims, and its only a half hour to swap them twice a year so thats not a pain either...

21" of snow is less slippery than 1".... Its the icestorms, black ice, drifting snow, and light snowfalls where the most accidents occur.. 21" just increases your chance of getting stuck somewhere..

Actually Michelin isn't very big here, Bridgestone and goodyear are probably the two big companies... I originly wanted Bridgestone Blizzacks, but they were sold out EVERYWHERE, so I did a little more research and found the Alpines to be next best. They have a unidirectional tread as well... With regards to studs they are illegal, same as chains so those are out, plus the ride would be insanely annoying...

Phoenix1911

Sin

I'm not saying everyone should get snow tires. But if snow is a common thing in your area, then yes, you should atleast have snows in your garage for when snow is forecasted.

It's not about being a rich kid. Think about how much money the average org member spends on mods. Are they all rich kids now? Give me a break. If we all spent a fraction of our mod money on snows, a lot of the accidents that occured this winter, would not have.

You can believe as much as you want that the HTR+ is fine for winter weather. It's just simply not possible. It's shallow grooves and compound that gets very hard in cold weather weather, and total lack of sipes, just makes this illogical.

Why do people buy Michelin tires in the numbers that they do? It's because Michelin consistently puts out a high quality tire. Michelin has some of the lowest problems reported with their tires in the entire market.

You are comparing one of the worlds largest tire manufacturers with a company that essentially specializes in snow tires. Of course Michelin is going to sell more tires then Nokian, not Nokia. Big difference.

As for rubber alone and rubber with metal studs, you have to realize a huge issue, metal studs only work well on ice. ONLY ice. On dry pavement, you lose grip as the metal slides across the tarmac, compared to rubber. And since in most areas in North America, conditions are not that severe, it doesn't make sense to run a metal stud, if most of the time you are running on a combination of snow, slush, ice, and tarmac. In that case, you'll want a cold weather compound, snow/water/slush evacuation, sipes for better ice grip, and taller sidewalls for more predictable break away characteristics. And the eco stud does improve on no studs. It helps to get to the middle ground between no stud no ice driving, and studded ice driving. Heck, one of the best designs right now is Toyo's microbit technology. They actually use a material very similar to walnut shells that actually improves ice grip noticeably. You'd be surprised what works and doesn't.

Honestly, the fact that you think a summer tire works just fine in 21" of snow just proves to me that you incorrigible.

Anachronism

I took my snow tires off about a week ago because I was dying to put my SE rims back on. My SE rims currently have all seasons with pretty good tread on them (soon to be replaced with some nice summer only tires ) so I figured I would be OK if we got a little snow. When it snowed Thursday I remembered why I got snow tires in the first place. I could hardly get going and I was sliding all over the place, my street has barely any slope at all and I friggen got stuck on it . I definatly will throw my snow tires on if there is snow in the forcast again. I figured out that I could use an attachment on my cordless drill and a 13/16 socket to spin the lug nuts on and off so tire changes should go pretty quick now.

If you can really can't afford a second set of tires I guess you have an excuse, but if you are spending $1000s on Mods you should be able to spare ~$500 (or a lot less if you pick up a used set) for snow tires on rims. Other then the cost of rims this should cost you the same in the long run since your summer tires will last longer.

A couple months ago in a snow storm I was stuck behind some A-hole in a BMW who was stuck on the slightest of slopes. He can afford a BMW but not snow tires ?

BOZOnPJs

once i get a new set of rims i'm planning on putting on bicycle tires on my stock rims to cut through the snow and have a lot less driving worries on the coming winters.

Tanman

I just put all season Sumitomo HTR+'s on my car and the ride is a bit bumpier than my ES100s. I don't think I could stand driving around on snow tires unless it was actually snowing all the time.

mayhemI30

i live in minnesota it snows all the time and its windy too. i got 225/40/18 z rated they suck in the winter but, i drive a hell of alot slower when it snows

slower than when i had my caddy

Dave B

Ya know, don't come in here acting like an expert unless you've owned the HTR+. HTR+ are more than up to the task of cutting through 2-8" on a street. I've done it all season long in Kansas City. The traction is plenty good for getting around. Are they as good as full blown snow tires? Nope, but I'm not sliding everywhere if that's what you're trying to imply.

Advocating the use of snow tires is fine and dandy, but please do take into consideration the areas people live. You would be a fool to run snow tires in most parts of the Midwest because when we get snow, there's rarely more than 3-8" snow on the street at one time and 90% of it is plowed within hours. Snow tires would be worn out very quickly where I live simply because the snow doesn't stay on the street. About the only place I could justify running snow tires would be the northeast MAYBE.

Just because the area you live recieves snow for 3 months out of the year doesn't mean you NEED snow tires. You've got to consider the amount of snow the area recieves.


Dave

Sin

If what you say is true about short snow periods, then what's the problem? Just put them on later, and take them off earlier, but have them on for the majority of the period that gets snows.

And in terms of where people live, just read all the threads this season about accidents due to winter road conditions. The large majority did not have not only snows, or all seasons, but summer tires. Don't you think that had they been running snows, they were significantly more likely to avoid the accident all together, and a definet decrease in damage if incurred.

Tanman

You're nuts if you drive summer tires in any amount of snow. I had summer tires on my car and it snowed like .015 inches. I was going 20 mph around a loopback to enter the freeway and I slid right off the on-ramp. I'm running HTR+'s now.

Dave B

Driving in the snow with snow tires is flat stupid so I agree with you. Most of the snow related wrecks in the Org can be attributed to one thing, inexperience driving in poor weather conditions. Most of the guys in the this Org have only been driving for 4-5 years at most. Driving too fast for conditions is the typical mistake of people who are inexperienced and don't understand the way the car will react. Snow tires wouldn't have saved these cars.

Snow tires, AWD, 4WD, ABS, whatever, are only effective if the driver adjusts accordingly to conditions.


Dave

mayhemI30

seriously if you just drive safe and slow and you know your car's limits there shouldn't be that much of a problem. yes my tires suck during the winter but i know what weather my car can handle and what it can,t. if you just use common sense and take it easy whats the problem. right?

Tanman

I thought that too, until my car started sliding off that on-ramp. I think in some situations, it doesn't matter what you know or think, probability is going to win.

RichP

For two Michigan winters when I had my Olds Alero, I drove on the stock Goodyear RSAs. Granted these were better in the snow than the Potenzas on my SE, just good enough to be tolerable.

If you take it easy and live in the city, good all-seasons are fine IMO. You're correct, it is absolutely more the patience of the driver than the tires!

If I lived in the country, however, it would be a different story, you need snows all the way. Whoever said that whether you need snows depending on whether you live in BFE or the city made a very valid point.

That said, I'm still going to have to do something for next winter. Calling the Potenzas "all season" is a total lie. I'm just not patient enough to drive in foul conditions with these things. I actually took delivery of my SE in a blizzard, and it was highly annoying - I might as well just have taken delivery of a Buick Century with four bald tires. We bought a set of Michelin Cross Terrains for my wife's Ford Escape, and they are absolutely magnificent tires, so I'll probably try the brand out on this car. It's too bad they're so stinking expensive, or I'd just do it now and get it over with.