DYNO COMPARISON: Battle of the Maxima 3.0's: 3rd Gen vs 4th Gen vs 5th Gen
03-11-2003, 09:14 PM
#41
Steve can we see a VG30 VS VQ35 comparison? It would be intersting to see how the power band on a max changed over a 11 year period, hehe. For real though, I would love to see how the VQ35 does in the mix against the VE and VQ.
BTW the charts and article you put together was very well done
BTW the charts and article you put together was very well done
03-11-2003, 09:17 PM
#42
Originally posted by emax02
Steve can we see a VG30 VS VQ35 comparison? It would be intersting to see how the power band on a max changed over a 11 year period,
Steve can we see a VG30 VS VQ35 comparison? It would be intersting to see how the power band on a max changed over a 11 year period,
but still kinda cool!
03-11-2003, 09:34 PM
#44
Originally posted by 96BLUMAX
Very nice write up!
That answers a lot of questions to which generation is faster.
Very nice write up!
That answers a lot of questions to which generation is faster.
I still dont buy it, especially cause Randy is the only stock dyno the VE has and he had a bad power valve or something...At the track, it seems the VE is faster, over the weekend all the VQ's had horrible times and the VE auto (aaron92se) had no problems being consistant and beating every VQ, even 5 speeds, only slower than jdmmax who is s/c'd with 9psi. Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board.
Lets compare suspensions!!!
Who has the best all around handling.
All in all, VERY GOOD write up by steve and I think he hit it on the head. No love lost, I still love ALL gens, I am a Maxima enthusiast, how about throwing a VG-T dyno in there to be fair
03-11-2003, 10:17 PM
#45
Originally posted by xHypex
My only observation is that aerodynamics were left out of the comparison. Surely someone has access to a wind tunnel.
My only observation is that aerodynamics were left out of the comparison. Surely someone has access to a wind tunnel.
I agree. Steve...time to start over from scratch with a wind tunnel this time.
03-11-2003, 11:41 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,659
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
shall we go on
:attention
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
shall we go on
:attention
03-11-2003, 11:57 PM
#50
not trying to ***** up this thread but..
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
shall we go on :attention
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
shall we go on
:attention
z whats the last year they made 'em 93 94, still yet to be determined. twin turbo z's were basing at 35,000 you can get a base 350 for way less than that.
sentra true
240sx ill take an s15 over a s13 gladly
maxima- well proof is in the pudding
civic si - come on how great was those cars to begin with
03-12-2003, 02:07 AM
#52
Maybe it's because more VQ owners can afford to buy bigger wheels
j/k
DW
j/kDW
Originally posted by dmontzmax
. . . Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board. . . .
. . . Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board. . . .
03-12-2003, 04:09 AM
#54
Originally posted by dmontzmax
At the track, it seems the VE is faster, over the weekend all the VQ's had horrible times and the VE auto (aaron92se) had no problems being consistant and beating every VQ, even 5 speeds, only slower than jdmmax who is s/c'd with 9psi. Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board.
At the track, it seems the VE is faster, over the weekend all the VQ's had horrible times and the VE auto (aaron92se) had no problems being consistant and beating every VQ, even 5 speeds, only slower than jdmmax who is s/c'd with 9psi. Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board.
I never got beat
03-12-2003, 06:09 AM
#55
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Eclipse, older is better.
Eclipse, older is better.
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Z, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Sentra, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
Originally posted by dmontzmax
240sx, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
not much changes made with the S13's to S15's .. they are all running KA24DE's
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Maxima, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Civic SI, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
03-12-2003, 08:09 AM
#56
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
hmmm...some funny comments!
Civic Si vs Mustang GT Wheel Weights
Obviously a Civic Si with its whopping 111 lb-ft of torque is going to have a much tougher time spinning heavy wheels than a Mustang GT with close to 300 lb-ft. If you have a serious beast and you can spin the wheels through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears, then wheel mass obviously is not the limiting factor - traction is. In that case going to wider/heavier rims will allow you to get some more traction, and the tradeoff you make with the heavier wheels is worth it. I don't think Civic Si's can do burnouts from a slow roll in 1st gear, so heavier wheels would probably only hurt them. ;-)
Aerodynamics
According to my various sources (CarTest2000 database, NissanNews.com, etc.), here are the drag coefficients of the three generations.
3rd Gen: 0.32
4th Gen: 0.32
5th Gen: 0.31
If two cars are close on the power-to-weight charts then you can start to look at other factors such as gearing, and aerodynamics. The 5th Gen SE has slightly less drag, but the difference is so small that it probably wouldn't even register in 1/4 mile runs unless you are an EXTREMELY consistent driver. It might start to make a more noticeable difference at very high speeds. The 5th Gen's are already highway beasts, so this just makes that even more true. :-)
Why no VG's or VQ35's?
From 1992-2001, all Maxima SE's performed very similarly to each other. The VG's represent an era of the past and are at a lower level of performance and not really comparable. Same thing with the VQ35's which are the future and represent the first significant jump in the Maxima's performance since the 1992 SE's. The point of the article was to compare the 92SE-01 era vehicles to each other, and not to previous or future era's. You could compare all these together, but it'd be silly. The VE/VQ/VQ-K would all be bunched together in the middle with the VG way at the bottom and the VQ35 way at the top. If somebody posts up a stock or nearly stock VG manual dyno I could still do it, though just to help put things in perspective.
Civic Si vs Mustang GT Wheel Weights
Obviously a Civic Si with its whopping 111 lb-ft of torque is going to have a much tougher time spinning heavy wheels than a Mustang GT with close to 300 lb-ft. If you have a serious beast and you can spin the wheels through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears, then wheel mass obviously is not the limiting factor - traction is. In that case going to wider/heavier rims will allow you to get some more traction, and the tradeoff you make with the heavier wheels is worth it. I don't think Civic Si's can do burnouts from a slow roll in 1st gear, so heavier wheels would probably only hurt them. ;-)
Aerodynamics
According to my various sources (CarTest2000 database, NissanNews.com, etc.), here are the drag coefficients of the three generations.
3rd Gen: 0.32
4th Gen: 0.32
5th Gen: 0.31
If two cars are close on the power-to-weight charts then you can start to look at other factors such as gearing, and aerodynamics. The 5th Gen SE has slightly less drag, but the difference is so small that it probably wouldn't even register in 1/4 mile runs unless you are an EXTREMELY consistent driver. It might start to make a more noticeable difference at very high speeds. The 5th Gen's are already highway beasts, so this just makes that even more true. :-)
Why no VG's or VQ35's?
From 1992-2001, all Maxima SE's performed very similarly to each other. The VG's represent an era of the past and are at a lower level of performance and not really comparable. Same thing with the VQ35's which are the future and represent the first significant jump in the Maxima's performance since the 1992 SE's. The point of the article was to compare the 92SE-01 era vehicles to each other, and not to previous or future era's. You could compare all these together, but it'd be silly. The VE/VQ/VQ-K would all be bunched together in the middle with the VG way at the bottom and the VQ35 way at the top.
If somebody posts up a stock or nearly stock VG manual dyno I could still do it, though just to help put things in perspective.
03-12-2003, 08:21 AM
#57
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally posted by dmontzmax
I still dont buy it, especially cause Randy is the only stock dyno the VE has and he had a bad power valve or something...
At the track, it seems the VE is faster, over the weekend all the VQ's had horrible times and the VE auto (aaron92se) had no problems being consistant and beating every VQ, even 5 speeds, only slower than jdmmax who is s/c'd with 9psi. Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board.
Lets compare suspensions!!!
Who has the best all around handling.
I still dont buy it, especially cause Randy is the only stock dyno the VE has and he had a bad power valve or something...At the track, it seems the VE is faster, over the weekend all the VQ's had horrible times and the VE auto (aaron92se) had no problems being consistant and beating every VQ, even 5 speeds, only slower than jdmmax who is s/c'd with 9psi. Every VE owner I talk to has friends in their area and say they take them out and you are all on this board.
Lets compare suspensions!!!
Who has the best all around handling.
Things I've noticed about Matt's 93. It's very quick for as little as he's done to it. I believe his only mods are a CAI, advanced timing, lightened flywheel, and UDP. My mods at the time were a modified stock airbox, y-pipe, UDP, MEVI, and 2K muffler. When we lined up, he had a better reaction time which gave him a ~.3 second jump. By the end of the track I had caught him and passed him (barely)(http://www.ee.utulsa.edu/~mblehm/pic.../timeslips.jpg). The truth is in the trap speed though. 91.7mph vs 94.2mph. I'm eagerly waiting to race Matt again when he gets a Y-pipe and catback...........but I'll have my JWT ECU by then
As for suspension, the only thing the 4th gen+ gives up to the 3rd gen is the IRS and this isn't terribly significant because we don't have RWD cars. The ride is smoother with the IRS over choppy surfaces, but don't kid yourself into thinking that IRS is a hightech setup because the 3rd gens IRS it's very lowtech in terms of most IRS on the market. Of course it's not as lowtech as the beam
The beam is not like the kind you'll find on a minivan or something. It has trailing arms, huge sway bar, coilover shocks, and Russel linkage to keep the correct geometry.Dave
03-12-2003, 08:38 AM
#58
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
shall we go on :attention
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better.
Z, older is better.
Sentra, older is better.
240sx, older is better.
Maxima, older is better.
Civic SI, older is better.
shall we go on
:attention
and just because the newer ones (meaning any of those cars listed above) are faster doesnt automatically mean better..theres more to it than sp33d y0..
03-12-2003, 09:19 AM
#59
Originally posted by Dave B
I'm eagerly waiting to race Matt again when he gets a Y-pipe and catback...........but I'll have my JWT ECU by then
I'm eagerly waiting to race Matt again when he gets a Y-pipe and catback...........but I'll have my JWT ECU by then
Of course it's not as lowtech as the beam [/B]
[/B]
FYI, this was over roads I am very familiar with, and have driven my cars on many times.
Oh yeah, and thanks for the great write up Steve!
03-12-2003, 10:21 AM
#63
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by DA-MAX
AS USUAL this goes from organized well put together post.....to crap :rotz :
AS USUAL this goes from organized well put together post.....to crap :rotz :
Flame Check = 0 (besides sprint and nauman
)I'd say the two days I spent flame-proofing the conclusion so that nobody would get crapped on (directly
) were well spent. hehehe
03-12-2003, 10:26 AM
#64
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better. YES
Z, older is better. RIGHT NOW YES
Sentra, older is better. SR20DE enough said
240sx, older is better. SR20DET swap is easier
Maxima, older is better. 4th gen
Civic SI, older is better. YES
shall we go on :attention
Lets do it, cause at the track, it was I see cases of old vs. new all the time.
Eclipse, older is better. YES
Z, older is better. RIGHT NOW YES
Sentra, older is better. SR20DE enough said
240sx, older is better. SR20DET swap is easier
Maxima, older is better. 4th gen
Civic SI, older is better. YES
shall we go on
:attention
03-12-2003, 10:35 AM
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by Dave B
As for suspension, the only thing the 4th gen+ gives up to the 3rd gen is the IRS and this isn't terribly significant because we don't have RWD cars. The ride is smoother with the IRS over choppy surfaces, but don't kid yourself into thinking that IRS is a hightech setup because the 3rd gens IRS it's very lowtech in terms of most IRS on the market. Of course it's not as lowtech as the beam The beam is not like the kind you'll find on a minivan or something. It has trailing arms, huge sway bar, coilover shocks, and Russel linkage to keep the correct geometry.
Dave
As for suspension, the only thing the 4th gen+ gives up to the 3rd gen is the IRS and this isn't terribly significant because we don't have RWD cars. The ride is smoother with the IRS over choppy surfaces, but don't kid yourself into thinking that IRS is a hightech setup because the 3rd gens IRS it's very lowtech in terms of most IRS on the market. Of course it's not as lowtech as the beam
The beam is not like the kind you'll find on a minivan or something. It has trailing arms, huge sway bar, coilover shocks, and Russel linkage to keep the correct geometry.Dave
03-12-2003, 10:43 AM
#66
Originally posted by MAX2000JP
I wouldn't even say that our Beam suspension is a disadvantage. Yes IRS does handle slightly better, but on the track, there is little difference or none at all. Now if you are comparing a Mustang's live axle to a Cobra's IRS, then you can point out the great differences between the 2. IMO, I would think that the 4th and 5th gen's would handle better at the track because of their increased rigidity. The stiffer the chassis, the better the handling.
I wouldn't even say that our Beam suspension is a disadvantage. Yes IRS does handle slightly better, but on the track, there is little difference or none at all. Now if you are comparing a Mustang's live axle to a Cobra's IRS, then you can point out the great differences between the 2. IMO, I would think that the 4th and 5th gen's would handle better at the track because of their increased rigidity. The stiffer the chassis, the better the handling.
03-12-2003, 10:51 AM
#69
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by dmontzmax
The track has pot holes and bumps too you know...
The track has pot holes and bumps too you know...
03-12-2003, 10:56 AM
#70
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by MAX2000JP
Gingerman didn't have too many bumps....Anyways, it doesn't make a differnce. If you hit a bump in any car during hard cornering, it will still upset the suspension. Compare a Chicago style pot hole and one "bumps" you see on the track and you will notice that their is a huge difference between them.
Gingerman didn't have too many bumps....Anyways, it doesn't make a differnce. If you hit a bump in any car during hard cornering, it will still upset the suspension. Compare a Chicago style pot hole and one "bumps" you see on the track and you will notice that their is a huge difference between them.
Yes, any car will be upset by bumps. A car with IRS will just be much less upset.
03-12-2003, 11:00 AM
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by SteVTEC
Driving at high speeds over the bumpy, twisty, and tight sections of the DC Beltway, my 2001 Accord V6 with IRS was *MUCH* more stable than my 1999 Maxima is with the beam.
Yes, any car will be upset by bumps. A car with IRS will just be much less upset.
Driving at high speeds over the bumpy, twisty, and tight sections of the DC Beltway, my 2001 Accord V6 with IRS was *MUCH* more stable than my 1999 Maxima is with the beam.
Yes, any car will be upset by bumps. A car with IRS will just be much less upset.
03-12-2003, 11:04 AM
#72
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
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Originally posted by MAX2000JP
I never disputed the on road advantages of an IRS. IRS is better for real world handling. I just dispute its advantages over a Beam suspension at the limits.
I never disputed the on road advantages of an IRS. IRS is better for real world handling. I just dispute its advantages over a Beam suspension at the limits.
At the Limit, Perfectly Smooth: Slight Advantage Beam
Given that most roads I encounter always have some sort of bump, hole, undulation, hump, whatever, I'll take the IRS anyday which can deal with whatever you throw at it much better than a beam.
03-12-2003, 11:09 AM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by SteVTEC
At the Limit, Bumpy: BIG Advantage IRS
At the Limit, Perfectly Smooth: Slight Advantage Beam
Given that most roads I encounter always have some sort of bump, hole, undulation, hump, whatever, I'll take the IRS anyday which can deal with whatever you throw at it much better than a beam.
At the Limit, Bumpy: BIG Advantage IRS
At the Limit, Perfectly Smooth: Slight Advantage Beam
Given that most roads I encounter always have some sort of bump, hole, undulation, hump, whatever, I'll take the IRS anyday which can deal with whatever you throw at it much better than a beam.
03-12-2003, 11:14 AM
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by SteVTEC
You don't have to be at the limits to experience the choppiness/drawbacks of the beam vs an IRS.
You don't have to be at the limits to experience the choppiness/drawbacks of the beam vs an IRS.
03-12-2003, 11:22 AM
#76
IRS vs solid rear axle.
1) If it cost exactly the same to produce either, which would almost every maker of passenger/sports car have?
2) Even though we know irs is more $ to produce, Nissan still went back to it in their newer cars. And we was previously mentioned, Ford spent some $ to have it available on their Cobra machines.
1) If it cost exactly the same to produce either, which would almost every maker of passenger/sports car have?
2) Even though we know irs is more $ to produce, Nissan still went back to it in their newer cars. And we was previously mentioned, Ford spent some $ to have it available on their Cobra machines.
